NPR

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:24 pm**

I consider myself to be more interested than most when it comes to rugby. I was utterly apathetic about this game, a six nations game, which should be near the pinnacle of the annual rugby season for a Scotland fan. On that basis I hate to think how this impacts the passive rugby public, a diminishing support would be a huge issue.

Ireland weren’t particularly good, but didn’t have to be to win with a BP. We are less than the sum of our parts. We have top players unable to execute basic skills. We continually make stupid mistakes. We cannot learn from the mistakes we make. How do we move on from here? I don’t know, but I think radical change is required.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:32 pm**

Not getting out of the group at the RWC with Townsend in charge.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:15 pm**

I’ve not been in the Toonie out camp but to be honest I’m getting there.

My logic is something like this. There are two plausible scenarios here:
1. Toonie is a genius coach and he is elevating a bunch of mediocre players to the peak of their powers, but they just aren’t good enough.
2. This is a golden group of players and Toonie is unable to organise them into a prize winning team.

In either of those scenarios, changing coach doesn’t make things worse. Scenario 1 is correct and we change coach and keep on being a nearly team. Well, it’s frustrating but not any worse than now. Scenario 2 and a change might just make the difference we need.

If we’re going to do it in needs to be now.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:14 pm**

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:15 pm I’ve not been in the Toonie out camp but to be honest I’m getting there.

My logic is something like this. There are two plausible scenarios here:
1. Toonie is a genius coach and he is elevating a bunch of mediocre players to the peak of their powers, but they just aren’t good enough.
2. This is a golden group of players and Toonie is unable to organise them into a prize winning team.

In either of those scenarios, changing coach doesn’t make things worse. Scenario 1 is correct and we change coach and keep on being a nearly team. Well, it’s frustrating but not any worse than now. Scenario 2 and a change might just make the difference we need.

If we’re going to do it in needs to be now.

I think the truth may be somewhere in between. Our squad isn’t as good as we’d like to think - it is worryingly weak in places - but it is head and shoulders above what we were working with 10 years or so ago, and there is real, genuine talent there. The problem is that that after what seemed to be genuine signs of progress, we have gone backwards again. We’ve had both the best attack and then the best defence, but now we have neither. Toony just seems to have run out of ideas to fix it.

I spent years ranting about the inability of professional players to do the basics properly. We seemed to have turned that corner, but now we have the same issues again. The problem is that I think a lot of it comes down to confidence. If you lack it, you snatch at opportunities rather than just doing your job properly and trusting they will come to you. Hogg’s failure to offload for a certain try today is a perfect example. A confident player puts a team-mate in for the try. A player lacking confidence tries to do it all themselves and screws it up.

The problem is that I think if we keep Toony, we’re asking for more of the same. He isn’t going to sort out our disciplinary issues. He has had years and we’ve got worse. He isn’t going to turn out confidence around at this point. So why keep him on? If the SRU do, they are writing off the RWC, because there is no way we are coming anywhere close to beating SA or Ireland without something major changing. Maybe we thought our squad was better than it is, but it is still a good squad and it can do much better than this.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:53 pm**

It's clear overall Townsend has done a good job. It's clear it's the end of the road for him too.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:15 pm**

I think if we had a top class breakdown then we have a completely different 6N.

Both sides of the ball we coughed up easy possession to the opposition where we killed our momentum and chances of scoring or we gave the opposition an easy out or a great attacking position.

It's small margins but it was a theme played out in every game.

I'd stick with Townsend but find a specialist who can transform us in this area.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am**

so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

It's hugely disappointing to see basic handling errors , poor on field decision making stifle so many decent attacking opportunities , but these seem to be endemic within Scottish players, and I'm struggling to see what difference a change in the coach who only has them for small periods of time would make

The only game that really got me frustrated was the Wales game , we really should have put them away.

The only other question I would ask is if not Townsend then who?

Its all fine and dandy to say Townsend must go, but if you don't have a better alternative then you could be heading into Matt Williams territory , and no-one wants to see that.

In the end it's just a game though

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:03 am**

Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

It's hugely disappointing to see basic handling errors , poor on field decision making stifle so many decent attacking opportunities , but these seem to be endemic within Scottish players, and I'm struggling to see what difference a change in the coach who only has them for small periods of time would make

The only game that really got me frustrated was the Wales game , we really should have put them away.

The only other question I would ask is if not Townsend then who?

Its all fine and dandy to say Townsend must go, but if you don't have a better alternative then you could be heading into Matt Williams territory , and no-one wants to see that.

In the end it's just a game though

In my best Cameron / Brown - I agree wth Nick Clegg - Tichthead is right about it all being about small margins

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:09 am**

Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

If we are talking best of the 6N then possibly Schoeman, though Genge did well over the last two games, Schoooey for me though.

Darcy Graham would be mentioned in despatches at least.

There may be one or two

If we are talking over each of the teams, then Price over Youngs 7 days a week.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:20 am**

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:09 am
Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

If we are talking best of the 6N then possibly Schoeman, though Genge did well over the last two games, Schoooey for me though.

Darcy Graham would be mentioned in despatches at least.

There may be one or two

If we are talking over each of the teams, then Price over Youngs 7 days a week.

I would have the vice Captain of the 13's Stonehaven girls team over Ben Youngs - I still remember how abject he was in a European Game at Scotstoun back in 2017

But the fact that we have to get to that level to discuss who would even get into the English Team to my mind speaks volumes

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:10 am**

Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:20 am
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:09 am
Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

If we are talking best of the 6N then possibly Schoeman, though Genge did well over the last two games, Schoooey for me though.

Darcy Graham would be mentioned in despatches at least.

There may be one or two

If we are talking over each of the teams, then Price over Youngs 7 days a week.
I would have the vice Captain of the 13's Stonehaven girls team over Ben Youngs - I still remember how abject he was in a European Game at Scotstoun back in 2017

But the fact that we have to get to that level to discuss who would even get into the English Team to my mind speaks volumes

Well, not really my point

my composite ScoEng team for this 6N would be

Schoeman, George, Sinkler
Itoje Gilchrist
Darge X, X - needs more thought
Price Smith
van der Merwe* Slade Marchant, Graham
Hogg

*vdM on what he can do rather than what he did do this tournament.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:29 am**

Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

It's hugely disappointing to see basic handling errors , poor on field decision making stifle so many decent attacking opportunities , but these seem to be endemic within Scottish players, and I'm struggling to see what difference a change in the coach who only has them for small periods of time would make

The only game that really got me frustrated was the Wales game , we really should have put them away.

The only other question I would ask is if not Townsend then who?

Its all fine and dandy to say Townsend must go, but if you don't have a better alternative then you could be heading into Matt Williams territory , and no-one wants to see that.

In the end it's just a game though

Sadly, I was thinking about this as I went to sleep last night. As you say, we talk about Toony having a golden generation and wasting it but if we picked a composite 6N 1st and 2nd team who would get in?

Front row- our scrum has held up very well against everyone but no individual would make either team

2nd row - it wasn’t long ago we were marvelling at the depth we have here. And we have, it’s just that it’s a production line of just about average international standard

Back row- as always a lot of really good talent here, and quite a few arguments to have, but I’d only really have an confidence in Ritchie being picked at 6 in one of those teams

Scrum half - Price has looked brilliant for about 40 minutes of the 6N, not enough

Stand off - still don’t know what’s really happening with Hastings but Finn not getting in and the drop off after that pair is dramatic

Centres - another area where we like to think we have depth, and I think we do. Maybe Johnson sneaks in

Wings - Darcy gets one spot but after him and IrnDu it’s a big drop

FB - Hogg makes one of the teams but after him the cupboard is bare if we are not looking at Kinghorn any longer - which we should be

So maybe 2 or 3. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is the best group we have had for a long time and it definitely feels we should be doing better. But compared to what everyone else has I just don’t think any other coach is going to make a significant difference

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:06 am**

I read something last night, and can't find the sodding thing this morning. that Toony had stripped Hogg of the captaincy the morning after the night before and that Hogg had demanded it back, with Toony capitulating quickly.

If that is the case it is weak.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:06 am**

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:29 am
Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 am so 4th place ( and only on points difference with England ) - which is about right

Compare the 1-15 of the Scotland team , to France , Ireland , and even England , and honestly tell me how many Scottish Players would get into those 3 teams. Is this a Golden Generation , hmmm, it's better than some previous , but we still have tiny pool , and losing key influential players , ala Ritchie and possibly Redpath the drop off is still larger than most of the other nations

It's hugely disappointing to see basic handling errors , poor on field decision making stifle so many decent attacking opportunities , but these seem to be endemic within Scottish players, and I'm struggling to see what difference a change in the coach who only has them for small periods of time would make

The only game that really got me frustrated was the Wales game , we really should have put them away.

The only other question I would ask is if not Townsend then who?

Its all fine and dandy to say Townsend must go, but if you don't have a better alternative then you could be heading into Matt Williams territory , and no-one wants to see that.

In the end it's just a game though
Sadly, I was thinking about this as I went to sleep last night. As you say, we talk about Toony having a golden generation and wasting it but if we picked a composite 6N 1st and 2nd team who would get in?

Front row- our scrum has held up very well against everyone but no individual would make either team

2nd row - it wasn’t long ago we were marvelling at the depth we have here. And we have, it’s just that it’s a production line of just about average international standard

Back row- as always a lot of really good talent here, and quite a few arguments to have, but I’d only really have an confidence in Ritchie being picked at 6 in one of those teams

Scrum half - Price has looked brilliant for about 40 minutes of the 6N, not enough

Stand off - still don’t know what’s really happening with Hastings but Finn not getting in and the drop off after that pair is dramatic

Centres - another area where we like to think we have depth, and I think we do. Maybe Johnson sneaks in

Wings - Darcy gets one spot but after him and IrnDu it’s a big drop

FB - Hogg makes one of the teams but after him the cupboard is bare if we are not looking at Kinghorn any longer - which we should be

So maybe 2 or 3. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is the best group we have had for a long time and it definitely feels we should be doing better. But compared to what everyone else has I just don’t think any other coach is going to make a significant difference

Sure but what's the excuse for only 1 win Vs Wales, 0 wins Vs Ireland. Because we are good enough to beat them - we beat England and France. The coach is responsible for discipline - we don't have it. The coach is responsible for consistency - we don't have it. The coach is responsible for selection - made a lot of weird calls.

Nobody is saying Townsend should go because we don't win the six nations. People are saying it because we won't get out the rwc pool, we won't kick on because he has these cycles of one promising year, one good year, one bad year. And the feeling around Scotland at the minute is bad - nobody is enjoying it.

It's does he go now or after we don't qualify from the group and surely nobody genuinely believes Townsend's Scotland are beating Ireland or South Africa. I think it's unlikely someone else's does either but you never know! Some fresh ideas and man management needed. As BigD says a lot of these players have never not been coached by Townsend - a change could be good.

It could be bad too but not worth it just to inject some excitement or optimism.

Tom English and Colin Gregor are right on the BBC Scotland rugby podcast every single part of Scotland's game has got worse: defence, attack, discipline are all poor now. He's had 6 years, I don't get what he can do to turn around now. This should be when the team are in their prime.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:34 am**

Whoever gets out of our pool, let’s face it, South Africa and Ireland, will face either France at home or New Zealand

It’s a fiendishly tricky draw

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:42 am**

Neeps, it’s hard to disagree with much of what you say and I guess there is a bit of an emotional attachment to Toony as well, our only world class Scottish coach for a long time, a hero of mine as a player.

There is also the fact that although I’m feeling down about this 6N I’ve been going to Murrayfield for 30 years and the last 5 or 6 years has been the most enjoyable period that I can remember, it’s a genuinely exciting team to watch even with the frustrations. Maybe my expectations are too narrow, I don’t really care very much about the WC - maybe that’s a reflection of rugby in general- the highlights of my year are 6N international weekends at Scotland games either at Murrayfield or away so I find it hard to get too objective about the wider picture

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:43 am**

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:34 am Whoever gets out of our pool, let’s face it, South Africa and Ireland, will face either France at home or New Zealand

It’s a fiendishly tricky draw

Aye I'm categorically not saying we're going to win a QF. But the goal for Scotland in the RWC is the QF surely. Two pool exits in consecutive world cups with a legitimately good team.. it would be a shame.

And nothing Townsend has done so far in charge suggests he's a threat to Ireland. Ireland in the 19rwc were awful and we let them beat us in twenty minutes by not showing up. And they're improving year on year whereas we've taken a huge step back. South Africa is another story. It's just a huge concern that after six years with our players reaching or in their primes and significant international experience they and Townsend are clearly not on the same page.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:56 am**

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:42 am Neeps, it’s hard to disagree with much of what you say and I guess there is a bit of an emotional attachment to Toony as well, our only world class Scottish coach for a long time, a hero of mine as a player.

I have almost convinced myself that part of the issue is that some of these guys have been coached by Townsend some form for a decade or more.

By having national assistants become club coaches then straight to national coach there aren't many other voices coming in or giving players playing in Scotland a different voice/view points.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:57 am**

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:42 am Neeps, it’s hard to disagree with much of what you say and I guess there is a bit of an emotional attachment to Toony as well, our only world class Scottish coach for a long time, a hero of mine as a player.

There is also the fact that although I’m feeling down about this 6N I’ve been going to Murrayfield for 30 years and the last 5 or 6 years has been the most enjoyable period that I can remember, it’s a genuinely exciting team to watch even with the frustrations. Maybe my expectations are too narrow, I don’t really care very much about the WC - maybe that’s a reflection of rugby in general- the highlights of my year are 6N international weekends at Scotland games either at Murrayfield or away so I find it hard to get too objective about the wider picture

Difficult to see the justification for calling Townsend a World Class coach.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:22 am**

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:57 am
Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:42 am Neeps, it’s hard to disagree with much of what you say and I guess there is a bit of an emotional attachment to Toony as well, our only world class Scottish coach for a long time, a hero of mine as a player.

There is also the fact that although I’m feeling down about this 6N I’ve been going to Murrayfield for 30 years and the last 5 or 6 years has been the most enjoyable period that I can remember, it’s a genuinely exciting team to watch even with the frustrations. Maybe my expectations are too narrow, I don’t really care very much about the WC - maybe that’s a reflection of rugby in general- the highlights of my year are 6N international weekends at Scotland games either at Murrayfield or away so I find it hard to get too objective about the wider picture
Difficult to see the justification for calling Townsend a World Class coach.

Well, he’s the only person to coach a Scottish team to the Pro title, best ever winning percentage as Scotland coach and a Lions coach. And that’s with what he has to coach in Scotland, I guess we will see for sure when he moves on but it’s an impressive CV so far I think

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:24 am**

If not Townsend - then who ?

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:39 am**

Special applause for Kyle Steyn who managed to make less than 10 yards playing on the wing. His defence has been rotten too.

He should be behind everyone right down ro Hoyland on the list of wingers to chose from.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:45 am**

I'd never noticed how slow he was until last week.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:23 am**

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:22 am
Well, he’s the only person to coach a Scottish team to the Pro title, best ever winning percentage as Scotland coach and a Lions coach. And that’s with what he has to coach in Scotland, I guess we will see for sure when he moves on but it’s an impressive CV so far I think

I wasn't going to post this because I don't want it to sound like I'm looking to rehash the VC shouldn't have been sacked argument, I'm not.

Is having the highest win percentage* is as big an achievement as it sounds given the guy immediately before him had the highest win percentage? It is an achievement but taking over a side on the up with a win record of 53% coming off home wins v Wales and Ireland is a big advantage compared to taking over from the Fat Bluffer and his 31% win rate.

I suspect both GT and VC win rates will be as good as it gets for a long time, possibly ever. A case of what might have been.

* I should caveat this by noting Geech's first spell of 5 years had the highest win rate.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:16 pm**

Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:24 am If not Townsend - then who ?

Shaun Edwards? He might fancy a step up to head coach. Jake White? He fits the ‘hard bastard who will take no shit’ criterion. Or how about seeing whether Scott Robertson (5 straight Super Rugby titles) can be tempted away from the Crusaders?

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:36 pm**

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:22 am
Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:57 am
Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:42 am Neeps, it’s hard to disagree with much of what you say and I guess there is a bit of an emotional attachment to Toony as well, our only world class Scottish coach for a long time, a hero of mine as a player.

There is also the fact that although I’m feeling down about this 6N I’ve been going to Murrayfield for 30 years and the last 5 or 6 years has been the most enjoyable period that I can remember, it’s a genuinely exciting team to watch even with the frustrations. Maybe my expectations are too narrow, I don’t really care very much about the WC - maybe that’s a reflection of rugby in general- the highlights of my year are 6N international weekends at Scotland games either at Murrayfield or away so I find it hard to get too objective about the wider picture
Difficult to see the justification for calling Townsend a World Class coach.
Well, he’s the only person to coach a Scottish team to the Pro title, best ever winning percentage as Scotland coach and a Lions coach. And that’s with what he has to coach in Scotland, I guess we will see for sure when he moves on but it’s an impressive CV so far I think

He'll immediately walk into a new highly paid club job when he's left Scotland.

He just isn't getting the best from the team. We're getting worse and he doesn't seem to know how to fixed it. We played badly in autumn (look at Australia's NH record since the 2015 RWC btw) and as bad in the six nations and the better teams punished us.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:53 pm**

Plus we have random in-out selections like Tupilotu. Good player for Glasgow, but hadn’t really done a lot to merit selection. Suddenly he’s starting over Johnson. Then he’s back out of the match day squad altogether. Whereas at the same time we have Hastings excluded from the squad in favour of Kinghorn (who has played a handful of games at 10) and little interest in Hutchinson, who can play 12.

This suggests to me a man who no longer really knows what he is doing and is picking random players in the hope that they will turn things around.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:19 pm**

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:16 pm
Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:24 am If not Townsend - then who ?
Shaun Edwards? He might fancy a step up to head coach. Jake White? He fits the ‘hard bastard who will take no shit’ criterion. Or how about seeing whether Scott Robertson (5 straight Super Rugby titles) can be tempted away from the Crusaders?

Edwards would he mental to leave France 18months out from a world cup.

There will always be surprising names available. It isn't necessarily about being a better coach than Townsend either, coaches often just reach the end of the road in a job as they become devoid of ideas and stale.

I also wonder if 12-14 years in a row in the SRU coaching bubble is a good thing for coaches too. Go out and coach in the other leagues, gain new experiences etc.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:06 pm**

Did someone (Slick?) mention Hogg had been dropped as capt then reinstated?

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:26 pm**

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:53 pm Plus we have random in-out selections like Tupilotu. Good player for Glasgow, but hadn’t really done a lot to merit selection. Suddenly he’s starting over Johnson. Then he’s back out of the match day squad altogether. Whereas at the same time we have Hastings excluded from the squad in favour of Kinghorn (who has played a handful of games at 10) and little interest in Hutchinson, who can play 12.

This suggests to me a man who no longer really knows what he is doing and is picking random players in the hope that they will turn things around.

I have to say some of the selections have pissed me off a great deal.

Johnson should never have been dropped after England and then to do it again after the disaster of Wales was just idiotic. As I’ve said repeatedly, I honestly think that selection cost us the Wales game and made sure we had no chance against France.

Steyn was awful against Italy and shouldn’t have been near the team this weekend.

And 10…. Hastings should have been on the bench at the beginning and taken over by France. I’ve said I won’t criticise Kinghorn because it’s not his fault but he looked 100% what he is yesterday, a guy who hasn’t played 10 before. Not to mention he is a very capable back up at 15 and we don’t have another at the moment.

Then we have 3 or 4 guys getting picked in teams of the week down in England not getting a look in.

Jock, wasn’t me re Hogg and the captaincy

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:49 pm**

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:06 pm Did someone (Slick?) mention Hogg had been dropped as capt then reinstated?

It was me. Saw something about it last night but can't find it again.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:52 pm**

westport wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:49 pm
Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:06 pm Did someone (Slick?) mention Hogg had been dropped as capt then reinstated?

It was me. Saw something about it last night but can't find it again.

Looks as though he'll not be capt again going by that.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:18 pm**

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:06 pm Did someone (Slick?) mention Hogg had been dropped as capt then reinstated?

It could also be press conferences he's fed up of. He won't do them as part of his Exeter duties.

The press seem to think players need to ve sweetness and light all the time and answer the same bollocks all the time.

Could be him finished as captain too of course.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:56 pm**

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:19 pm
Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:16 pm
Dogbert wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:24 am If not Townsend - then who ?
Shaun Edwards? He might fancy a step up to head coach. Jake White? He fits the ‘hard bastard who will take no shit’ criterion. Or how about seeing whether Scott Robertson (5 straight Super Rugby titles) can be tempted away from the Crusaders?
Edwards would he mental to leave France 18months out from a world cup.

There will always be surprising names available. It isn't necessarily about being a better coach than Townsend either, coaches often just reach the end of the road in a job as they become devoid of ideas and stale.

I also wonder if 12-14 years in a row in the SRU coaching bubble is a good thing for coaches too. Go out and coach in the other leagues, gain new experiences etc.

Would Edwards be mad to leave now? He isn’t head coach and presumably has ambitions to be one. If offered the job he might say no, but he’d have a choice to make.

I absolutely agree with your second para. Sometimes what is needed is to freshen things up, get a new perspective and new ideas, maybe try out some new players or combos. Toony’s tenure with Scotland has definitely gone stale. I’ve already posted it, but in 2018 we had the best attack in the 6N and in 2020 the best defence. Now both of them have gone to shit and we don’t excel at anything. It’s like a relationship that has run its course and both parties are going through the motions.

EDIT: I know the SRU won’t, but it might actually be a clever move to change things up now rather than wait until the end of the RWC cycle. Means we’re not fighting other teams so much for the same candidates, and means we’ll get a year headstart on our rebuild. We’re all agreed our RWC group is a lost cause, so why wait?

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:10 pm**

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:56 pm
Big D wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:19 pm
Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:16 pm

Shaun Edwards? He might fancy a step up to head coach. Jake White? He fits the ‘hard bastard who will take no shit’ criterion. Or how about seeing whether Scott Robertson (5 straight Super Rugby titles) can be tempted away from the Crusaders?
Edwards would he mental to leave France 18months out from a world cup.

There will always be surprising names available. It isn't necessarily about being a better coach than Townsend either, coaches often just reach the end of the road in a job as they become devoid of ideas and stale.

I also wonder if 12-14 years in a row in the SRU coaching bubble is a good thing for coaches too. Go out and coach in the other leagues, gain new experiences etc.
Would Edwards be mad to leave now? He isn’t head coach and presumably has ambitions to be one. If offered the job he might say no, but he’d have a choice to make.

I absolutely agree with your second para. Sometimes what is needed is to freshen things up, get a new perspective and new ideas, maybe try out some new players or combos. Toony’s tenure with Scotland has definitely gone stale. I’ve already posted it, but in 2018 we had the best attack in the 6N and in 2020 the best defence. Now both of them have gone to shit and we don’t excel at anything. It’s like a relationship that has run its course and both parties are going through the motions.

EDIT: I know the SRU won’t, but it might actually be a clever move to change things up now rather than wait until the end of the RWC cycle. Means we’re not fighting other teams so much for the same candidates, and means we’ll get a year headstart on our rebuild. We’re all agreed our RWC group is a lost cause, so why wait?

He walked away from a deal with his boyhood RL club to join France and has transformed them. They win the WC, or even if his defence continues to impress the England and Wales (where he has a big connection) jobs will be open.

Agree on second para. Like parents staying together for the kids waiting til they hit a suitable age to separate. The RWC is the equivalent of that age.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:22 pm**

My concern with the WC is that they're not getting out of that group which means in another 4 years they're once again in pot 3. Will changing coaches guarantee success? As others have said, no but it's mental to continue as they are with no changes. I also don't want to throw the dummies out the pram for no reason. It has to be a good coach and one the SRU will probably have to break the bank for.

So Toonie for RWC23 it is.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:32 pm**

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:22 pm My concern with the WC is that they're not getting out of that group which means in another 4 years they're once again in pot 3. Will changing coaches guarantee success? As others have said, no but it's mental to continue as they are with no changes. I also don't want to throw the dummies out the pram for no reason. It has to be a good coach and one the SRU will probably have to break the bank for.

So Toonie for RWC23 it is.

They broke the bank for Cotter or at least tried to and that was when we were pish.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:30 pm**

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:22 pm My concern with the WC is that they're not getting out of that group which means in another 4 years they're once again in pot 3. Will changing coaches guarantee success? As others have said, no but it's mental to continue as they are with no changes. I also don't want to throw the dummies out the pram for no reason. It has to be a good coach and one the SRU will probably have to break the bank for.

So Toonie for RWC23 it is.

Scotland aren't in pot 3 because of not making it out of the pool in 2019. They're in pot 3 because a vindictive WR, using a Covid-related excuse, decided to bring forward the already-ridiculously-early world rankings cut-off date to an even earlier date that meant that performances after that RWC didn't count. I don't expect that to happen again, so there will be time next time to return to pot 2.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:46 pm**

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:30 pm
Scotland aren't in pot 3 because of not making it out of the pool in 2019. They're in pot 3 because a vindictive WR, using a Covid-related excuse, decided to bring forward the already-ridiculously-early world rankings cut-off date to an even earlier date that meant that performances after that RWC didn't count. I don't expect that to happen again, so there will be time next time to return to pot 2.

IIRC, Japan got the slot that would have been allocated to Scotland had the draw been done the same way it always has been, that would mean being second seeds in Pool D

England
Japan
Argentina
Samoa
Americas 2

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:50 pm**

I stand corrected

NPR

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