A place where escape goats go to play
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They give up.so much easy ground on kicks because the 10 is so deep. There's been no kick chase because nearly everyone is offside.
And the forwards aren't any less gritty or nasty. And having fun in training hasn't affected their game closing ability. Youngsters like Boyle, Muncaster et al are very good.robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:56 amEdinburgh do have some real quality in the backs and it's not the first time they've made the difference this season. Puts Cockerill's steadfast refusal to use them in perspective.
Sutherland is the big one out of those. I'm no lover of Cockerill and wanted him gone long before he went but the others listed there aren't necessarily all his fault.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:09 pm Cockerill's win percentage in the league as Edinburgh head coach for each season was 70%, 48%, 73%, 31% and then 20% in the Rainbow cup.
By the time he left there were stories, well, we all know the ones that are in the public domain, but there were also departures on top - Callum Hunter Hill, Duhan van der Merwe, Rory Sutherland, Matt Scott, these weren't just natural squad turnover leavers.
I supported Alan Solomons but it was fairly obvious that he wasn't head coach material. Cockerill turned around some attitudes in the players, and van der Merwe probably has a lot to thank him for, but not many others
They also have a backs coach who is good rather than a dud.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:58 amAnd the forwards aren't any less gritty or nasty. And having fun in training hasn't affected their game closing ability. Youngsters like Boyle, Muncaster et al are very good.
All very strange...
Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:45 pmSutherland is the big one out of those. I'm no lover of Cockerill and wanted him gone long before he went but the others listed there aren't necessarily all his fault.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:09 pm Cockerill's win percentage in the league as Edinburgh head coach for each season was 70%, 48%, 73%, 31% and then 20% in the Rainbow cup.
By the time he left there were stories, well, we all know the ones that are in the public domain, but there were also departures on top - Callum Hunter Hill, Duhan van der Merwe, Rory Sutherland, Matt Scott, these weren't just natural squad turnover leavers.
I supported Alan Solomons but it was fairly obvious that he wasn't head coach material. Cockerill turned around some attitudes in the players, and van der Merwe probably has a lot to thank him for, but not many others
Scott was a weird one regarding him accepting a verbal contract offer then someone saying it wasn't there. I don't think RC would be personally handling contacts, especially during covid. At the time Scott spoke about calling Cockerill after the offer of a contract was removed suggesting it wasn't Cockerill he was dealing with.
From the rumours at the time CHH wasn't blameless when it comes to why it didn't work out for him.
Duhan got just about more cash than the SRU pay premium positions if reports are true. He is allegedly in the 250-300k bracket. Every winger on Scotland would leave for that cash.
Boffeli at FB, VdM and Graham on the wings, Lang and Bennett in the centres, Vella cot at nine and Kinghorn at ten?Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:34 pmBig D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:45 pmSutherland is the big one out of those. I'm no lover of Cockerill and wanted him gone long before he went but the others listed there aren't necessarily all his fault.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:09 pm Cockerill's win percentage in the league as Edinburgh head coach for each season was 70%, 48%, 73%, 31% and then 20% in the Rainbow cup.
By the time he left there were stories, well, we all know the ones that are in the public domain, but there were also departures on top - Callum Hunter Hill, Duhan van der Merwe, Rory Sutherland, Matt Scott, these weren't just natural squad turnover leavers.
I supported Alan Solomons but it was fairly obvious that he wasn't head coach material. Cockerill turned around some attitudes in the players, and van der Merwe probably has a lot to thank him for, but not many others
Scott was a weird one regarding him accepting a verbal contract offer then someone saying it wasn't there. I don't think RC would be personally handling contacts, especially during covid. At the time Scott spoke about calling Cockerill after the offer of a contract was removed suggesting it wasn't Cockerill he was dealing with.
From the rumours at the time CHH wasn't blameless when it comes to why it didn't work out for him.
Duhan got just about more cash than the SRU pay premium positions if reports are true. He is allegedly in the 250-300k bracket. Every winger on Scotland would leave for that cash.
We'll never know of course, and iirc Cockerill was in place when Boffelli, Moyano, Venter and De Bruin were signed, so there is the positive side too, but I think players are more likely to go if there is a situation where players are getting humiliated in front of their team mates on a Monday morning and others are being sidelined and not given a chance.
I'd have liked to have seen what vdM would get up with the midfield we have now, playing how they are, and also what the others would do on the end of one of his destructive runs
I wholly agree players are more likely to go, but just trying to be balanced in that there were other reasons players went. Scott was desperate to stay for example.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:34 pmBig D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:45 pmSutherland is the big one out of those. I'm no lover of Cockerill and wanted him gone long before he went but the others listed there aren't necessarily all his fault.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:09 pm Cockerill's win percentage in the league as Edinburgh head coach for each season was 70%, 48%, 73%, 31% and then 20% in the Rainbow cup.
By the time he left there were stories, well, we all know the ones that are in the public domain, but there were also departures on top - Callum Hunter Hill, Duhan van der Merwe, Rory Sutherland, Matt Scott, these weren't just natural squad turnover leavers.
I supported Alan Solomons but it was fairly obvious that he wasn't head coach material. Cockerill turned around some attitudes in the players, and van der Merwe probably has a lot to thank him for, but not many others
Scott was a weird one regarding him accepting a verbal contract offer then someone saying it wasn't there. I don't think RC would be personally handling contacts, especially during covid. At the time Scott spoke about calling Cockerill after the offer of a contract was removed suggesting it wasn't Cockerill he was dealing with.
From the rumours at the time CHH wasn't blameless when it comes to why it didn't work out for him.
Duhan got just about more cash than the SRU pay premium positions if reports are true. He is allegedly in the 250-300k bracket. Every winger on Scotland would leave for that cash.
We'll never know of course, and iirc Cockerill was in place when Boffelli, Moyano, Venter and De Bruin were signed, so there is the positive side too, but I think players are more likely to go if there is a situation where players are getting humiliated in front of their team mates on a Monday morning and others are being sidelined and not given a chance.
I'd have liked to have seen what vdM would get up with the midfield we have now, playing how they are, and also what the others would do on the end of one of his destructive runs
Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:50 pm
I wholly agree players are more likely to go, but just trying to be balanced in that there were other reasons players went. Scott was desperate to stay for example.
On here and the Edinburgh board there were whispers about CHH and either his behaviour or attitude and Duhan was offered piles of cash. He is in a pay bracket that only 5 coaches and players are in (before match fees and bonuses I think). Similar to when Denton went really, offered a deal that they couldn't really refuse.
Cockerills regime clearly became toxic and I'm not defending that at all. All I'm saying is Cockerill isn't the reason all the players left. Both cab be true.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:04 pmBig D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:50 pm
I wholly agree players are more likely to go, but just trying to be balanced in that there were other reasons players went. Scott was desperate to stay for example.
On here and the Edinburgh board there were whispers about CHH and either his behaviour or attitude and Duhan was offered piles of cash. He is in a pay bracket that only 5 coaches and players are in (before match fees and bonuses I think). Similar to when Denton went really, offered a deal that they couldn't really refuse.
I was one of the ones suggesting that CHH must have done something to upset the applecart because his departure was swift and Edinburgh didn't exactly fight to keep him after the loan period ran out.
I seem to recall Cockerill being very disappointed that vdM left, saying that he had been made a very good offer to stay. Perhaps if it was the current set up and atmosphere, where the players are having fun at training and the wider squad are being made to feel a big part of the whole effort, and actually getting game time too, plus winning and playing to a very expansive game plan where players are given agency, not being terrified to go off script because they will be berated in front of the squad on Monday, maybe the team ethos and the good offer would have been enough.
CHH just isn't very good - barely plays for Sarries and barely did in the championship either. I think that's the problem.Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:45 pmSutherland is the big one out of those. I'm no lover of Cockerill and wanted him gone long before he went but the others listed there aren't necessarily all his fault.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:09 pm Cockerill's win percentage in the league as Edinburgh head coach for each season was 70%, 48%, 73%, 31% and then 20% in the Rainbow cup.
By the time he left there were stories, well, we all know the ones that are in the public domain, but there were also departures on top - Callum Hunter Hill, Duhan van der Merwe, Rory Sutherland, Matt Scott, these weren't just natural squad turnover leavers.
I supported Alan Solomons but it was fairly obvious that he wasn't head coach material. Cockerill turned around some attitudes in the players, and van der Merwe probably has a lot to thank him for, but not many others
Scott was a weird one regarding him accepting a verbal contract offer then someone saying it wasn't there. I don't think RC would be personally handling contacts, especially during covid. At the time Scott spoke about calling Cockerill after the offer of a contract was removed suggesting it wasn't Cockerill he was dealing with.
From the rumours at the time CHH wasn't blameless when it comes to why it didn't work out for him.
Duhan got just about more cash than the SRU pay premium positions if reports are true. He is allegedly in the 250-300k bracket. Every winger on Scotland would leave for that cash.
If Ritchie isn’t the highest paid player in Scotland, he should be. Will be captain thIs summer if fit, and then should continue as such. Take us through the next two World Cups. Already a leader on the pitch, we missed him massively after his injury. He has to be made captain soon to have the influence he can have on the younger guys coming through, and create a generation of guys who have his attitude and commitment.Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:55 pmCockerills regime clearly became toxic and I'm not defending that at all. All I'm saying is Cockerill isn't the reason all the players left. Both cab be true.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:04 pmBig D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:50 pm
I wholly agree players are more likely to go, but just trying to be balanced in that there were other reasons players went. Scott was desperate to stay for example.
On here and the Edinburgh board there were whispers about CHH and either his behaviour or attitude and Duhan was offered piles of cash. He is in a pay bracket that only 5 coaches and players are in (before match fees and bonuses I think). Similar to when Denton went really, offered a deal that they couldn't really refuse.
I was one of the ones suggesting that CHH must have done something to upset the applecart because his departure was swift and Edinburgh didn't exactly fight to keep him after the loan period ran out.
I seem to recall Cockerill being very disappointed that vdM left, saying that he had been made a very good offer to stay. Perhaps if it was the current set up and atmosphere, where the players are having fun at training and the wider squad are being made to feel a big part of the whole effort, and actually getting game time too, plus winning and playing to a very expansive game plan where players are given agency, not being terrified to go off script because they will be berated in front of the squad on Monday, maybe the team ethos and the good offer would have been enough.
Scott expressly stated he called Cockerill asking to stay and Duhan has been given money that puts him in the top 10 paid SQ players.
On Duhan, Cockerill said they made a strong offer but weren't going to compete in an auction for a position which isnt a priority which suggests the offers weren't particularly close. Cant blame Duhan, at 25 this might be his one big contract as 300k is a lot for wing. They prioritised Ritchie and the rumours at the time have him the highest paid player on the SRU books (4-500k). Something had to give.
I see young Gelderbloom scored a good try at the weekendrobmatic wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:55 pmAnd Chamberlain is in the Edinburgh squad but nowhere near the matchday squad this season.Slick wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:04 pm Went down to the Heriots v Southern Knights game.
Was decent entertainment but I think it desperately needs a couple more teams.
Jack Mann, the Heriots 6, won motm and probably deserved it, but, a little depressingly, the SK 10, Chamberlain, was easily the classiest player on the pitch. The Heriots 10, Houston, was awful.
One great thing to see was the Heriots replacement 9 that came on, very young, looked excellent and a definite upgrade on the starting 9. He looked so nervous waiting to come on but when he crossed the line took control, it was very impressive
I think the replacement 9 for Heriots would be Jed Gelderbloom, the son of Glenn Gelderbloom who played for Leicester a few years back.
I think that deal (longest and richest in SRU history apparently) is why we need to be careful about potentially rewriting history regarding why a group of high profile/seen as high potential players left. Yes Cockerill was toxic, yes his time was overdue on being up, yes some players may have left due to him, but players were happy to sign and resign under him too.Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:12 pmIf Ritchie isn’t the highest paid player in Scotland, he should be. Will be captain thIs summer if fit, and then should continue as such. Take us through the next two World Cups. Already a leader on the pitch, we missed him massively after his injury. He has to be made captain soon to have the influence he can have on the younger guys coming through, and create a generation of guys who have his attitude and commitment.Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:55 pmCockerills regime clearly became toxic and I'm not defending that at all. All I'm saying is Cockerill isn't the reason all the players left. Both cab be true.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:04 pm
I was one of the ones suggesting that CHH must have done something to upset the applecart because his departure was swift and Edinburgh didn't exactly fight to keep him after the loan period ran out.
I seem to recall Cockerill being very disappointed that vdM left, saying that he had been made a very good offer to stay. Perhaps if it was the current set up and atmosphere, where the players are having fun at training and the wider squad are being made to feel a big part of the whole effort, and actually getting game time too, plus winning and playing to a very expansive game plan where players are given agency, not being terrified to go off script because they will be berated in front of the squad on Monday, maybe the team ethos and the good offer would have been enough.
Scott expressly stated he called Cockerill asking to stay and Duhan has been given money that puts him in the top 10 paid SQ players.
On Duhan, Cockerill said they made a strong offer but weren't going to compete in an auction for a position which isnt a priority which suggests the offers weren't particularly close. Cant blame Duhan, at 25 this might be his one big contract as 300k is a lot for wing. They prioritised Ritchie and the rumours at the time have him the highest paid player on the SRU books (4-500k). Something had to give.
Woh up, easy, Tiger.Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:37 pm
I think that deal (longest and richest in SRU history apparently) is why we need to be careful about potentially rewriting history. Yes Cockerill was toxic, yes his time was overdue on being up, yes some players may have left due to him, but players were happy to sign and resign under him too.
Sorry, wasn't meaning to imply you were. Was a general "we" as a lot of the chat on forums and social media (me especially a lot of times) focuses a lot on the bad when it comes to Cockerill particularly how it ended and Sutherland not hiding the fact the coach played a part in him leaving.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:08 pmWoh up, easy, Tiger.Big D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:37 pm
I think that deal (longest and richest in SRU history apparently) is why we need to be careful about potentially rewriting history. Yes Cockerill was toxic, yes his time was overdue on being up, yes some players may have left due to him, but players were happy to sign and resign under him too.
No one is rewriting history, it's all conjecture anyway and that is part of being on a forum.
I was merely hypothesising that if the culture had been the way it is now, along with the style of rugby, plus the new offer, it might have swayed the decision of van der Merwe.
It might not have been enough and the money was the bottom line, we don't know.
I heard Duhan wasn't that keen on Edinburgh as a city.weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:30 pm Rugby players are the same as any other profession. They sometimes make decisions based on work factors, sometimes on personal, sometimes on a mix. Quite often people look for rugby reasons for a move when there were none, or they were only a contributory factor.
CHH left for non rugby reasons. Cockerill and others went a long way to saving his career by brokering a move to Saracens. DvdM left partly for money reasons, but also partly for personal ones. Even after he left he went on record as saying Cockerill had saved his career.
Sutherland however heartily disliked Cockerill and there was no way they were both staying in the same club.
Matt Scott I know no more than anyone, other than he has signed his last contract with Leicester, at the end of which he intends to come back for a last season at Currie to end his career where it began.
So he moved to the Midlands. Yeah, that works.robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:27 amI heard Duhan wasn't that keen on Edinburgh as a city.weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:30 pm Rugby players are the same as any other profession. They sometimes make decisions based on work factors, sometimes on personal, sometimes on a mix. Quite often people look for rugby reasons for a move when there were none, or they were only a contributory factor.
CHH left for non rugby reasons. Cockerill and others went a long way to saving his career by brokering a move to Saracens. DvdM left partly for money reasons, but also partly for personal ones. Even after he left he went on record as saying Cockerill had saved his career.
Sutherland however heartily disliked Cockerill and there was no way they were both staying in the same club.
Matt Scott I know no more than anyone, other than he has signed his last contract with Leicester, at the end of which he intends to come back for a last season at Currie to end his career where it began.
Closer to civilisation though, innit?Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:16 pmSo he moved to the Midlands. Yeah, that works.robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:27 amI heard Duhan wasn't that keen on Edinburgh as a city.weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:30 pm Rugby players are the same as any other profession. They sometimes make decisions based on work factors, sometimes on personal, sometimes on a mix. Quite often people look for rugby reasons for a move when there were none, or they were only a contributory factor.
CHH left for non rugby reasons. Cockerill and others went a long way to saving his career by brokering a move to Saracens. DvdM left partly for money reasons, but also partly for personal ones. Even after he left he went on record as saying Cockerill had saved his career.
Sutherland however heartily disliked Cockerill and there was no way they were both staying in the same club.
Matt Scott I know no more than anyone, other than he has signed his last contract with Leicester, at the end of which he intends to come back for a last season at Currie to end his career where it began.
Astonishing as it is to me, that is actually true.robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:27 amI heard Duhan wasn't that keen on Edinburgh as a city.weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:30 pm Rugby players are the same as any other profession. They sometimes make decisions based on work factors, sometimes on personal, sometimes on a mix. Quite often people look for rugby reasons for a move when there were none, or they were only a contributory factor.
CHH left for non rugby reasons. Cockerill and others went a long way to saving his career by brokering a move to Saracens. DvdM left partly for money reasons, but also partly for personal ones. Even after he left he went on record as saying Cockerill had saved his career.
Sutherland however heartily disliked Cockerill and there was no way they were both staying in the same club.
Matt Scott I know no more than anyone, other than he has signed his last contract with Leicester, at the end of which he intends to come back for a last season at Currie to end his career where it began.
It's a shame as I prefer when the project players love Scotland - which isn't to say Duhan doesn't but if you don't like Edinburgh I find it hard to believe you'll want to live in Dundee/Aberdeen etc. But, I suppose that it's unlikely all project players would rather stay here when they're retired.weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:33 pmAstonishing as it is to me, that is actually true.robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:27 amI heard Duhan wasn't that keen on Edinburgh as a city.weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:30 pm Rugby players are the same as any other profession. They sometimes make decisions based on work factors, sometimes on personal, sometimes on a mix. Quite often people look for rugby reasons for a move when there were none, or they were only a contributory factor.
CHH left for non rugby reasons. Cockerill and others went a long way to saving his career by brokering a move to Saracens. DvdM left partly for money reasons, but also partly for personal ones. Even after he left he went on record as saying Cockerill had saved his career.
Sutherland however heartily disliked Cockerill and there was no way they were both staying in the same club.
Matt Scott I know no more than anyone, other than he has signed his last contract with Leicester, at the end of which he intends to come back for a last season at Currie to end his career where it began.
This is a revelation.
Yeah, compare it to Nel who clearly is very happy being in Scotland.I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:00 pmIt's a shame as I prefer when the project players love Scotland - which isn't to say Duhan doesn't but if you don't like Edinburgh I find it hard to believe you'll want to live in Dundee/Aberdeen etc. But, I suppose that it's unlikely all project players would rather stay here when they're retired.