The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Blackmac]

Shocking from Glasgow. Leinster are class but that was just gutless.

[Slick]

Shocking from Glasgow. Leinster are class but that was just gutless.

It was pretty inevitably going to end in a loss but the way it slipped away was so Scottish.

In the lead and competing well enough, stupid yellow card, string of idiotic penalties, aimless kicking, couple of poor reffing decisions. Game gone

[I like neeps]

Shocking from Glasgow. Leinster are class but that was just gutless.

It was pretty inevitably going to end in a loss but the way it slipped away was so Scottish.

In the lead and competing well enough, stupid yellow card, string of idiotic penalties, aimless kicking, couple of poor reffing decisions. Game gone

Finding a way to criticise the referee when a team takes 70 is so Scottish too.

[Slick]

Shocking from Glasgow. Leinster are class but that was just gutless.

It was pretty inevitably going to end in a loss but the way it slipped away was so Scottish.

In the lead and competing well enough, stupid yellow card, string of idiotic penalties, aimless kicking, couple of poor reffing decisions. Game gone

Finding a way to criticise the referee when a team takes 70 is so Scottish too.

Bit harsh old boy, thought the first and third trys were pretty debatable and at quite important times- deliberately left that comment to last

[KingBlairhorn]

Wow, is that a record loss? Just a few years from being a team that everyone in the league feared, including Leinster, to this.

I know I’ve now said it after the last 3 losses but surely Wilson has to go? This team is a shadow of even Rennie’s Glasgow. Pitiful.

[I like neeps]

That was without doubt the most stupid offload I have ever seen by Kinghorn. Incredibly dumb. I can't believe it.

[I like neeps]

It was pretty inevitably going to end in a loss but the way it slipped away was so Scottish.

In the lead and competing well enough, stupid yellow card, string of idiotic penalties, aimless kicking, couple of poor reffing decisions. Game gone

Finding a way to criticise the referee when a team takes 70 is so Scottish too.

Bit harsh old boy, thought the first and third trys were pretty debatable and at quite important times- deliberately left that comment to last

It's not a close game at all. A team full of internationals went and got their bellies rubbed. One of the worst performances in Glasgow's history. Really no reason to bring up debatable decisions.

[robmatic]

That was without doubt the most stupid offload I have ever seen by Kinghorn. Incredibly dumb. I can't believe it.

That was far too casual. Bad start.

[I like neeps]

That was without doubt the most stupid offload I have ever seen by Kinghorn. Incredibly dumb. I can't believe it.

That was far too casual. Bad start.

Casual is very generous. You're retreating, on your five and you lob am offload. Totally brainless.

[Yr Alban]

Fuck sake. Glasgow manshamed and now Edinburgh 7-0 down after 3 minutes.

[Slick]

That was without doubt the most stupid offload I have ever seen by Kinghorn. Incredibly dumb. I can't believe it.

That was far too casual. Bad start.

Casual is very generous. You're retreating, on your five and you lob am offload. Totally brainless.

Empty jersey in defence the whole half

[I like neeps]

So so good to see Crosbie playing well again.

Henry for Scotland?

[robmatic]

So so good to see Crosbie playing well again.

Henry for Scotland?

Crosbie was the best forward on the park for me, although Roos was good for Stormers.

I still don't understand how we managed to sign Boffelli. He is legitimately class.

[I like neeps]

So so good to see Crosbie playing well again.

Henry for Scotland?

Crosbie was the best forward on the park for me, although Roos was good for Stormers.

I still don't understand how we managed to sign Boffelli. He is legitimately class.

English clubs have no salary cap, French clubs have strict Jif requirements, Irish clubs have strict NIQ rules, Welsh, South African, Australian and Italian clubs are skint and NZ don't pay for non all Blacks. Glasgow and Edinburgh become very very competitive in this situation.

[Tichtheid]

I'm going to forgive Kinghorn placing the first try on a plate for the Stormers, what we need for Edinburgh and for Scotland is game breakers, and Kinghorn is one, albeit one in training.

He's started 17 games this season, that means he's still had less than 20 games at fly half, he turned 25 in January, he still has time to make it as a top class 10. In fact over the course of the season he is well in to the credit column, I think only a curmudgeon would say otherwise.


I don't think Pyrgos should be back in the Scotland squad, he's played very well when he's come on for Vellacott, but for me there was a marked increase in pace when Chico came on, in thought, in pass and in movement.

[I like neeps]

I'm going to forgive Kinghorn placing the first try on a plate for the Stormers, what we need for Edinburgh and for Scotland is game breakers, and Kinghorn is one, albeit one in training.

He's started 17 games this season, that means he's still had less than 20 games at fly half, he turned 25 in January, he still has time to make it as a top class 10. In fact over the course of the season he is well in to the credit column, I think only a curmudgeon would say otherwise.


I don't think Pyrgos should be back in the Scotland squad, he's played very well when he's come on for Vellacott, but for me there was a marked increase in pace when Chico came on, in thought, in pass and in movement.

Kinghorn has been superb this season. However, even if we're charitable and say he's a new fly half he's still got 100 games at 15 he should know what to do when he's on his five metre line. It was a ludicrous decision for someone of his (or any) experience. Just chucked them a try after 3 minutes.

Agree about Shiel, puzzling why Blair never plays him. I think Pyrgos has been the pick of Edinburgh's 9s this year.

[Slick]

Hi Tichtheid, curmudgeon here.

That was an absolutely woeful performance from Kinghorn.

I honestly don’t think I’ve seen a pro rugby player with such little interest in defending. When he’s not actively avoiding having to make a tackle he’s either just acting as a road bump or missing it completely. Time and time again you see him at the top of the screen jogging back as teammates are busting a gut to get back. I presume that’s why he is moved to the back when Edinburgh are defending- another disruption to show horn him into the team.

In that first half he touched the ball once in attack in the first 25 minutes. Once in over a quarter of the game. A stand off. I don’t think there will be a stand-off at any level of the game that has so little influence on the game.

How many times tonight when he did get the ball did he pick the wrong pass? A fizzing flat pass missing out half the team might look nice but there is nothing easier to defend, it’s a panic pass.

He’s looked OK against easier opposition during the season but against anyone decent or in big matches he’s gone missing. It’s holding Edinburgh back.

I actually feel genuinely sorry for the guy. It’s not his fault he’s getting picked there and he is a lovely bloke with incredible rugby skills. Unfortunately I don’t think his head is there for the top level.

It’s not going to get any better

[Tichtheid]

Well, Slick, I'm siding with the professional coaches on this

[Slick]

Well, Slick, I'm siding with the professional coaches on this

That’s a bit of a cop out really. Well we’ll see, I suspect the project will be quietly dropped

[I like neeps]

[quote=Slick post_id=211165 time=1654373169 user_id=264]
[quote=Tichtheid post_id=211164 time=1654372086 user_id=632]
Well, Slick, I'm siding with the professional coaches on this
[/quote]

That’s a bit of a cop out really. Well we’ll see, I suspect the project will be quietly dropped
[/quote]

I don't think it will be - he was moved because Edinburgh need a 10, Scotland need options so Russell's gripes with Townsend aren't fatal for the squad and Kinghorn isn't getting into that Edinburgh back 3 nevermind a Scotland back three and all three are still the case.

To dominate bad teams and struggle against good teams is actually quite a good result for the first season. It's not his fault he plays Ireland in the six nations - squarely on one Gregor Townsend - but otherwise a good season for Kinghorn at 10.

Absolutely agree about the cop out. Nobody would ever be qualified to have an opinion on anything if that logic hold up. May as well shut the bored down.

[Tichtheid]

It not a cop out because you guys see only what you want to see.

You''ll jump on a mistake and hold it up, "See? Telt Youse!" no matter what Kinghorn does in the attack side of things.

It's confirmation bias and there is no disputing that, so why bother trying to convince you otherwise?

When Blair and Toonie stop picking him I'll admit the game is up, but for now I think he has a heck of a lot to offer and is still potentially a very good international 10.

[Slick]

It not a cop out because you guys see only what you want to see.

You''ll jump on a mistake and hold it up, "See? Telt Youse!" no matter what Kinghorn does in the attack side of things.

It's confirmation bias and there is no disputing that, so why bother trying to convince you otherwise?

When Blair and Toonie stop picking him I'll admit the game is up, but for now I think he has a heck of a lot to offer and is still potentially a very good international 10.

Hang on, I’ve praised him many times this season when he’s done well. He’s undoubtedly a very talented player but he also has limitations that are exposed at 10. He’s not a 10.

And anyway, it wasn’t me that posted minutes after the game on 2 separate threads defending him before anyone else had even posted an opinion. That doesn’t suggest a completely open mind.

[Tichtheid]

Kinghorn has been superb this season. However, even if we're charitable and say he's a new fly half he's still got 100 games at 15 he should know what to do when he's on his five metre line. It was a ludicrous decision for someone of his (or any) experience. Just chucked them a try after 3 minutes.

Okay, here is my reasoning.

I agree that was a howler of a mistake and an absolute gift of five points, which they turned into seven with the conversion, there is no way that was the right thing to do.

Or was it? That same pass, the sort of overhand basketball pass that Kinghorn does has been a feature of his game this season, I don't really remember him doing it before and I don't think I've seen many other players do it.

It has led to tries in recent weeks and it has led to breaks, by the looks of things he was trying to pass the ball to Chris Dean and, frankly, made an arse of it.

The right thing to do there was to go to ground and expect the team to secure the ball by clearing out and getting a good kick down field.

My contention is that I'd rather ship those points and have Kinghorn not think twice before using the same pass the next five times to get us a try of our own or a huge broken field run off the back of it, I really don't want him going in to his shell, otherwise we might as well start Jaco, no disrespect intended to Jaco, but the whole point of BK playing ten was to play the attack game, and I'm loathed to give that up.

[Tichtheid]

It not a cop out because you guys see only what you want to see.

You''ll jump on a mistake and hold it up, "See? Telt Youse!" no matter what Kinghorn does in the attack side of things.

It's confirmation bias and there is no disputing that, so why bother trying to convince you otherwise?

When Blair and Toonie stop picking him I'll admit the game is up, but for now I think he has a heck of a lot to offer and is still potentially a very good international 10.

Hang on, I’ve praised him many times this season when he’s done well. He’s undoubtedly a very talented player but he also has limitations that are exposed at 10. He’s not a 10.

And anyway, it wasn’t me that posted minutes after the game on 2 separate threads defending him before anyone else had even posted an opinion. That doesn’t suggest a completely open mind.

I think I posted something like, "he will improve as a ten" on the other thread.


edit, I just looked it up

Kinghorn is still very much a full back playing ten, he will improve.

My post on here was in response to the criticism of him

[Tichtheid]

On a wider note, Edinburgh have beaten the Bulls and drawn with the Stormers at home, we've beaten the Sharks and lost to the Lions in South Africa and now lost to the Stormers in Cape Town.

To be honest I thought we were going to get pumped in all of those games before the season started, but we have something to build on now

[I like neeps]

Kinghorn has been superb this season. However, even if we're charitable and say he's a new fly half he's still got 100 games at 15 he should know what to do when he's on his five metre line. It was a ludicrous decision for someone of his (or any) experience. Just chucked them a try after 3 minutes.

Okay, here is my reasoning.

I agree that was a howler of a mistake and an absolute gift of five points, which they turned into seven with the conversion, there is no way that was the right thing to do.

Or was it? That same pass, the sort of overhand basketball pass that Kinghorn does has been a feature of his game this season, I don't really remember him doing it before and I don't think I've seen many other players do it.

It has led to tries in recent weeks and it has led to breaks, by the looks of things he was trying to pass the ball to Chris Dean and, frankly, made an arse of it.

The right thing to do there was to go to ground and expect the team to secure the ball by clearing out and getting a good kick down field.

My contention is that I'd rather ship those points and have Kinghorn not think twice before using the same pass the next five times to get us a try of our own or a huge broken field run off the back of it, I really don't want him going in to his shell, otherwise we might as well start Jaco, no disrespect intended to Jaco, but the whole point of BK playing ten was to play the attack game, and I'm loathed to give that up.

There's a difference between going into your shell and chucking an offload on your five metre line.

You have to be aware of the game situation - it's three minutes in and you're on the five metre line. What's the best cast scenario there? Dean catches the ball and gets tackled by Gelant who was right on Dean anyway and as Dean was the clearer the stormers probably get a turnover. It's not like Dean was in space! He was running into traffic to support Kinghorn.

Unbelievably stupid.

Yes there's playing with flair, yes there's playing with instinct. But how good can Kinghorn really become if he lacks such basic game awareness? And this isn't even he's new a 10 if anyone knows not to chuck offloads on the five meter line it's your 15!! I can't imagine Boff doing that.

I like Kinghorn at 10, he's had a good year at 10. But that was mental.

[Tichtheid]

What's the best cast scenario there?

Best case?

Dean takes the ball and slips the tackle, he sets Hoyland free who runs the length to score under the posts.


Look, I'm not going to offer any defence of that pass, it was stupid, Kinghorn has a lot of errors in his game but for me he also offers a lot that almost no one else does, and granted it's all potential at the moment but I want to dream, I want to believe he can be one of the best attacking 10s in the world.

I honestly think that is still possible, but it comes at a cost, namely the stupidity we saw today. I suppose it comes down to how risk averse we are, I want to win but I want to watch Kinghorn and Russell type players over a solid kicking 10 any day of the week.

[Slick]

I think that moment is a bit of a red herring really. It was daft but shit happens, even to the best players.

My obvious concern is that that one moment of madness takes away from what I think was an overall incredibly poor performance

[I like neeps]

What's the best cast scenario there?

Best case?

Dean takes the ball and slips the tackle, he sets Hoyland free who runs the length to score under the posts.


Look, I'm not going to offer any defence of that pass, it was stupid, Kinghorn has a lot of errors in his game but for me he also offers a lot that almost no one else does, and granted it's all potential at the moment but I want to dream, I want to believe he can be one of the best attacking 10s in the world.

I honestly think that is still possible, but it comes at a cost, namely the stupidity we saw today. I suppose it comes down to how risk averse we are, I want to win but I want to watch Kinghorn and Russell type players over a solid kicking 10 any day of the week.

Totally unrealistic - as said Dean was running to Kinghorn so he could clear the ruck. He wasn't looking for or expecting an offload.

There aren't really that many attacking 10s in world rugby as most teams want a controlling force and then to scheme up the attacking plays so that's not impossible.

As I said it's been a good season for him. Beat the bad teams, lose mostly to the good teams and it was fun to watch. Let's see what happens in Argentina where I presume he'll start and next season. I do think it's a problem with Townsend and Russell's relationship where it reportedly is Kinghorn is next in line because it was set before he'd played much at 10 for Edinburgh so it's not based on his form per say but Hastings hasn't been amazing this year and Thompson meh so fair enough. I think Scotland are in trouble as Russell is frustrating and flawed but by far the best option.

Also a good season for Edinburgh overall - a qualified success.

[Yr Alban]

Hard to feel positive about Scottish rugby after this season. Is there any area in which we’ve seen improvement?

[I like neeps]

Hard to feel positive about Scottish rugby after this season. Is there any area in which we’ve seen improvement?

Mike Blair is a really exciting coach and Rory Darge. Also Rory Hutchinson to be fair - watch saints and try not to be entertained by his playmaking skills.

[Slick]

Hard to feel positive about Scottish rugby after this season. Is there any area in which we’ve seen improvement?

Mike Blair is a really exciting coach and Rory Darge. Also Rory Hutchinson to be fair - watch saints and try not to be entertained by his playmaking skills.

Actually a fair few young forwards have had good seasons. The backs worry me a bit (those playing in Scotland) there seems to be some good club players coming through but not many that look as if they will take the step up

[Slick]

What's the best cast scenario there?

Best case?

Dean takes the ball and slips the tackle, he sets Hoyland free who runs the length to score under the posts.


Look, I'm not going to offer any defence of that pass, it was stupid, Kinghorn has a lot of errors in his game but for me he also offers a lot that almost no one else does, and granted it's all potential at the moment but I want to dream, I want to believe he can be one of the best attacking 10s in the world.

I honestly think that is still possible, but it comes at a cost, namely the stupidity we saw today. I suppose it comes down to how risk averse we are, I want to win but I want to watch Kinghorn and Russell type players over a solid kicking 10 any day of the week.

Totally unrealistic - as said Dean was running to Kinghorn so he could clear the ruck. He wasn't looking for or expecting an offload.

There aren't really that many attacking 10s in world rugby as most teams want a controlling force and then to scheme up the attacking plays so that's not impossible.

As I said it's been a good season for him. Beat the bad teams, lose mostly to the good teams and it was fun to watch. Let's see what happens in Argentina where I presume he'll start and next season. I do think it's a problem with Townsend and Russell's relationship where it reportedly is Kinghorn is next in line because it was set before he'd played much at 10 for Edinburgh so it's not based on his form per say but Hastings hasn't been amazing this year and Thompson meh so fair enough. I think Scotland are in trouble as Russell is frustrating and flawed but by far the best option.

Also a good season for Edinburgh overall - a qualified success.

At fear of boring myself I’ll probably stop after this, but as I said above that bit of play was daft but hey ho. The more worry part was that it was Kinghorn who ran out the defensive line and missed the tackle that led to it, that’s what shouldn’t be happening

[I like neeps]

Hard to feel positive about Scottish rugby after this season. Is there any area in which we’ve seen improvement?

Mike Blair is a really exciting coach and Rory Darge. Also Rory Hutchinson to be fair - watch saints and try not to be entertained by his playmaking skills.

Actually a fair few young forwards have had good seasons. The backs worry me a bit (those playing in Scotland) there seems to be some good club players coming through but not many that look as if they will take the step up

I like the look of Muncaster and Boyle and want to see them really compete with Mata, Crosbie, Watson and Ritchie next season. Really like the look of Sykes, Hodgson I think is going to be a really good Edinburgh pro but probably not an international lock as he lacks the athletic brutality. Edinburgh have no young front rows coming through - so there's bits to be positive about. They also don't really have any young backs coming through - Savala looks interesting, I really like Currie but there's no way Bennett gets dropped on this form so it's hard for him to get a look in.

At Glasgow I don't think there are any young forwards other than Darge? Walker badly needs games. Brown I like the look of and horrible injury really stalled him. Williamson and Samuel will hopefully be good but haven't yet played a pro game. Tait is really going to find it hard to get in that team as a 7 as Darge and Gordon are very good. Backs wise? Dobie's development has completely stalled and you have to ask why as Price (Lions fatigue) and Horne aren't playing well. Thompson didn't kick on, McDowall isn't young anymore. Forbes and McLean both took pretty sizeable steps back. I like Ollie Smith.

I think it's a concern there's so few youngsters getting gametime. The SRU's priority number 1 has to be development pathways.

[weegie01]

Hard to feel positive about Scottish rugby after this season. Is there any area in which we’ve seen improvement?

I agree with I like Neeps, it was a quietly satisfying season.

There was a new coach and new challenges. There were good wins, narrow losses that should have perhaps been wins, and narrow losses that could have gone either way. Edinburgh mostly lost to teams it was no shame to lose to, and mostly beat those they should have.

Next season the 'mostlys' need to be removed, and the line between 'no shame to lose to' moved higher up the league.

There are a lot of young guys in the team, hopefully we will see continued improvement in them. I think the front row is still an issue. The Stormers coach commented that they started to get on top as our front row tired. But as there was a big gap between them and the back ups, they stayed on too long. Injuries played a part in that, but it is an area that worries me.

10 is also an issue. I think the jury is still out on Kinghorn, meanwhile van der Walt seems to have come out of the slough he was in and has been very good recently.

So my glass is half full. Plenty of improvement needed, but the possibility for that is there.

BTW, I'd like to make a joke about 'at least we're not Glasgow', but apart from my recent record with jokes being misconstrued, the situation there does not look like a laughing matter. Yet they were only just behind Edinburgh in the league.

[Slick]

I have to say that this is the first season that I’ve really got into the club rugby and enjoyed following a team. I’ll definitely be going to more games next season and would love to get to a couple of away ones (probably Ulster and an Italian one top of my list).

I think that as well of encouraging a type of rugby that we all want to watch, Blair has managed to create a buzz around following the team - in no small part the stadium has obviously helped.

So all in all, agree, a positive first season

[Tichtheid]

There are a lot of young guys in the team, hopefully we will see continued improvement in them. I think the front row is still an issue. The Stormers coach commented that they started to get on top as our front row tired. But as there was a big gap between them and the back ups, they stayed on too long. Injuries played a part in that, but it is an area that worries me.

There is a drop off from first to second choice at prop, but we have only third and fourth choice available as back ups so Nel and Schoeman have been playing too much rugby - Schoey has played 18 club games and 9 internationals this season, that is a lot for a prop.

Paddy Harrison looks a good prospect at hooker, but yeah, Scottish props are in short supply at Edinburgh.

[Biffer]

Kinghorn at ten will continue to the next RWC then I think other options will be explored.

[Biffer]

There are a lot of young guys in the team, hopefully we will see continued improvement in them. I think the front row is still an issue. The Stormers coach commented that they started to get on top as our front row tired. But as there was a big gap between them and the back ups, they stayed on too long. Injuries played a part in that, but it is an area that worries me.

There is a drop off from first to second choice at prop, but we have only third and fourth choice available as back ups so Nel and Schoeman have been playing too much rugby - Schoey has played 18 club games and 9 internationals this season, that is a lot for a prop.

Paddy Harrison looks a good prospect at hooker, but yeah, Scottish props are in short supply at Edinburgh.

Are any academy props playing Super6? I thought that was one of the points of it.

[I like neeps]

Kinghorn at ten will continue to the next RWC then I think other options will be explored.

It will be very interesting to watch especially if Townsend leaves. I think he's a more effective 10 than 15 though. Especially if Edinburgh still have Bofelli who is a much better 15 than Kinghorn.