NPR

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:29 am

I think fishing is symbolic in many ways, "Island Nation", "Britannia Rules the Waves" and all that shite, it also plays well in the press

Cod philosophy

I'll get me coat

EU offers to return up to 18% of fish caught in UK waters
Meaning about £100 million more for the UK fleets

Longshanks wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:28 pm EU offers to return up to 18% of fish caught in UK waters
Meaning about £100 million more for the UK fleets

It’s plainly stupid . Here you can keep 20% of your own fish.


Hey tell you what can we have some of Paris and a bit of the black forest please.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:06 pm

Longshanks wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:28 pm EU offers to return up to 18% of fish caught in UK waters
Meaning about £100 million more for the UK fleets

It’s plainly stupid . Here you can keep 20% of your own fish.


Hey tell you what can we have some of Paris and a bit of the black forest please.

Better than everything stays the same
We need a deal Bimbo. Even you know that
Who gives a toss about fishing really?

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:06 pm

Longshanks wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:28 pm EU offers to return up to 18% of fish caught in UK waters
Meaning about £100 million more for the UK fleets

It’s plainly stupid . Here you can keep 20% of your own fish.


Hey tell you what can we have some of Paris and a bit of the black forest please.

It's called a Trade Agreement for a reason - it's not a declaration of war

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:14 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:06 pm

Longshanks wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:28 pm EU offers to return up to 18% of fish caught in UK waters
Meaning about £100 million more for the UK fleets

It’s plainly stupid . Here you can keep 20% of your own fish.


Hey tell you what can we have some of Paris and a bit of the black forest please.

It's called a Trade Agreement for a reason - it's not a declaration of war

It’s nonsense to demand sovereign fishing waters and outside of the EU it just doesn’t happen.

It’s actually quite close to a declaration of war.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:28 pm
It’s nonsense to demand sovereign fishing waters and outside of the EU it just doesn’t happen.

It’s actually quite close to a declaration of war.

Demand? You're a loon

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:31 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:28 pm
It’s nonsense to demand sovereign fishing waters and outside of the EU it just doesn’t happen.

It’s actually quite close to a declaration of war.

Demand? You're a loon

Negotiation, you’re thick.

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:33 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:31 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:28 pm
It’s nonsense to demand sovereign fishing waters and outside of the EU it just doesn’t happen.

It’s actually quite close to a declaration of war.

Demand? You're a loon

Negotiation, you’re thick.

Negotiate from a Position of Strength, toolbag

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:38 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:33 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:31 pm

Demand? You're a loon

Negotiation, you’re thick.

Negotiate from a Position of Strength, toolbag

And making demands accordingly.........

Overplaying that position .........

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:44 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:38 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:33 pm


Negotiation, you’re thick.

Negotiate from a Position of Strength, toolbag

And making demands accordingly.........

Overplaying that position .........

Not 100% sure but sounds like UK say no to deal on fishing.

Longshanks wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:32 am Biden says there must be no border with guards on the island of Ireland
He's said that to both sides
They must do a deal.

I was always a it curious as to why he was telling the UK that, surely the UK could say we have no intention of creating a hard order and leave the EU to decide what to make of that...

Openside wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:03 pm

Longshanks wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:32 am Biden says there must be no border with guards on the island of Ireland
He's said that to both sides
They must do a deal.

I was always a it curious as to why he was telling the UK that, surely the UK could say we have no intention of creating a hard order and leave the EU to decide what to make of that...

Because it's Britain that is forcing a change to the Status Quo, & not the EU; & it is even going against the wishes of the majority in NI.

If you break it, you own fixing it !

The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

Can you explain this, please?

I find fishing rights thing a little confusing as I can't see why the EU should have access to British waters in the event of no deal.

Rinkals wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:18 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

Can you explain this, please?

I find fishing rights thing a little confusing as I can't see why the EU should have access to British waters in the event of no deal.

The EU won't have access in the event of no deal - this is about what they get with a deal.
I don't know what is meant by "saved" but fishing rights were not the same as they are now when the UK joined the European common market.

Telegraph suggesting EU have accepted that the UK'S sovereignty will be recognised in any deal on fishing.

Article in Irish Times saying UK landbridge non-viable for Irish firms shipping goods to the continent. TBH from my POV this is the only real positive of Brexit, with hopefully less lorries on the road.

Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:06 am Telegraph suggesting EU have accepted that the UK'S sovereignty will be recognised in any deal on fishing.

Article in Irish Times saying UK landbridge non-viable for Irish firms shipping goods to the continent. TBH from my POV this is the only real positive of Brexit, with hopefully less lorries on the road.

A friend of mine is in haulage industry - both in UK and into Europe - he says that DFDS have re-entered the Irish ferry game with a new Rosslare to Dunkirk service in preperation for no deal. 24 hour transit time (about double the landbridge time) and not big enough capacity but its a (bad) start for Ireland. It appears the new service only has the capacity for around 650 lorries a week.

Thats pretty bad news for Ireland. If the landbridge is no longer viable and alternatives don't have anywhere near enough capacity and thats before we get to the cost increases.

Outbound and inbound it does add 24 hours to every Irish lorry trvelling to the continent though. That means if every Paddy Scania used that route they need 20% more vehicles and drivers to achieve the same delivery rate they have now.

On that basis alone the obvious knock on is that tranport of Irish exports by road just got 20% more expensive., plus the cost differential between landbridge and direct ferries which probably means 25-30% cost increase overall.

Interesting bit of that is how many more Irish operators will end up over running working days on tacho and end up with drivers having to take their weekly rest before returning to Ireland.

Rinkals wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:18 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

Can you explain this, please?

There was a good article which explained it all, and of course I can’t find it now. It talked about quotas and how they protected stocks, but how overfishing is still a problem.

It also talked about the concentration of ownership of the fleet, as mentioned by others here.

I’ll keep looking for the article.

Edit, found it https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/04/0 ... h-fishing/

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

What a pile of shite

Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:10 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

What a pile of shite

You need to learn some manners.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:58 am

Rinkals wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:18 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

Can you explain this, please?

There was a good article which explained it all, and of course I can’t find it now. It talked about quotas and how they protected stocks, but how overfishing is still a problem.

It also talked about the concentration of ownership of the fleet, as mentioned by others here.

I’ll keep looking for the article.

Edit, found it https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/04/0 ... h-fishing/

The only bit he got right in that article was the increased catching power of the fleet.

Amazing that we needed the eu for these boats when Iceland, Norway and Russia never did and consequently also have much healthier industries as a result of it.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:14 am

Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:10 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm The ironing is that the EU pretty much saved the UK fishing industry, especially so for the Scottish fleet.

Don't listen to Gove on this, he is lying.

What a pile of shite

You need to learn some manners.

You need to stop posting with such assurance on things you read from a blog.

NL, you are probably the only one who has a good idea what is going on in these negotiations. If you have time at some point could you explain?

Genuine request as I’d like to know

westport wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:52 am

Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:06 am Telegraph suggesting EU have accepted that the UK'S sovereignty will be recognised in any deal on fishing.

Article in Irish Times saying UK landbridge non-viable for Irish firms shipping goods to the continent. TBH from my POV this is the only real positive of Brexit, with hopefully less lorries on the road.

A friend of mine is in haulage industry - both in UK and into Europe - he says that DFDS have re-entered the Irish ferry game with a new Rosslare to Dunkirk service in preperation for no deal. 24 hour transit time (about double the landbridge time) and not big enough capacity but its a (bad) start for Ireland. It appears the new service only has the capacity for around 650 lorries a week.

Thats pretty bad news for Ireland. If the landbridge is no longer viable and alternatives don't have anywhere near enough capacity and thats before we get to the cost increases.

Outbound and inbound it does add 24 hours to every Irish lorry trvelling to the continent though. That means if every Paddy Scania used that route they need 20% more vehicles and drivers to achieve the same delivery rate they have now.

On that basis alone the obvious knock on is that tranport of Irish exports by road just got 20% more expensive., plus the cost differential between landbridge and direct ferries which probably means 25-30% cost increase overall.

Interesting bit of that is how many more Irish operators will end up over running working days on tacho and end up with drivers having to take their weekly rest before returning to Ireland.

Clearly Brexit is bad for Ireland. Lack of preparation for Brexit was perhaps due to Ireland's strength and confidence during the WA negotiations, and the belief that the UK would fold.
I wonder if there is an agreement, both sides could also agree to an implementation period. After all, the UK is not going to be a threat to EU 1 second past midnight on Jan 1st. Something to help Ireland get better connections to Europe sorted. Didn't Cammy say they had big boats being made, not heard how that is coming on? Even without it, previous ideas like trusted trader might have a place. I'm no expert on this of course, but the EU need to recognise how difficult this is for Ireland.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:37 am NL, you are probably the only one who has a good idea what is going on in these negotiations. If you have time at some point could you explain?

Genuine request as I’d like to know

You give me too much credit to know what is going on in the negotiations. I am getting feedback at various points but it's fair to say it is a moving picture. I know what the industry is after which needs to be broken down into what the fishermen want and what the processors want which has some significant differences but there are large areas that they agree on.

The big thing is establishing sovereignty over our own waters and the stock that is in them, the EU do not want to concede this because this is where the long term implications are on for the respective fleets and this is what the UK is pushing for and by rights is actually enshrined in international law so on the bare face of it the EU is actually arguing against established maritime/fisheries law but it is never straight forward as they are leveraging their market access against this which is why this is so stuck.

The latest as has been reported is the EU are prepared to concede anything between 15 to 18% of their existing catch, the ploy from the EU side is that this will then ensure future access to the grounds for their fleet pretty much in perpetuity thereafter at this lower level but it wont go lower than that, this however and is the crucial bit doesnt recognise the UK has full soveriegnity over its waters because if they do recognise this then it is for the UK to manage the stock in its waters and could see the UK changing its quota allocation or even abandon quotasaltogether for other forms of fishery management in the future, which ultimately could see a far greater share being "taken away" from the EU.

Now for the UK they will not sink the deal over fisheries and sovreignity of our waters, that is bonkers on many fronts, the industry is insignifant strategically for this to happen and the industry knows this but they need to get something as it is a political hand grenade if they dont and just roll over completely so the posturing now is going to be on the percentage, encouragingly the EU have finally offered something, I now expect a bit of horse trading on the size of this and it will be established the EU boats will be able to continue in our waters but not as much as before, I would also expect this to be phased in over 3-5 years, it doesnt help us either for get a huge uplift overnight. Management of our waters will likely have some big caveats in it to ensure the EU boats continue to have the same access but actual catch will go up and down dependent on the overall health of the stock

It is the norm for 3rd countries to have access to other fishing grounds but the management is at the behest of the country. If i use the Barents sea as probably the best example, it is jointly shared by Russia and Norway very roughly 40% each with the 3rd countries including the UK able to catch the remaining 20%. The quotas for cod and haddock, being the main species up there and the largest grounds for these species in the world, is determined by Norway and Russia each year using ICES advice and other data and the 3rd party countries just get what is left over based on historical agreements.

There are various other rules/laws in these countries whereby their domestic fiushermen cant sell their quota overseas and the boats must retain at least 51% Norweigian ownership etc for Norway, Russia is even higher cant actually remember where their bar is. Incidentally the UK's historic quota rights in the Barents sea are now actually owned by Icelandic and Dutch companies that are among the largest fishing companies in the world, so we havent exactly been that fussed as a nation over it historically and neither have the fishermen who sold them and sailed off with their huge cheques, this is something that needs to be tightened up amongst other things like landing obligations but i wont get into that here.

The exact landing zone is still unclear but now this move has been made by the EU we are getting a sense that an agreement will be reached and the shaoe of it, the EU has already told the French and their fishermen to stop being unrealistic who have been the most unreasonable to date, so I expect they will get a bung of sorts to decommission some of their fleet, Boris will be able to show an increase in fish for our boats so can claim a win. Both sides havent got what they really wanted but a compromise has been made.

Only state aid and mutual recognition to go...

Only joking

No, thanks, very useful

Cammys big boat.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:27 pm Only joking

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:28 pm No, thanks, very useful

Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:28 pm Cammys big boat.

And thank you NI ...... top explanation.

Shame it’s even a discussion.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/unearthed. ... -gove/amp/

More than a quarter of the United Kingdom’s fishing quota is in the hands of a tiny group of the country’s wealthiest families
...
It reveals that more than two-thirds of the UK’s fishing quota is controlled by just 25 businesses
...
Meanwhile, in England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler.
...
Around half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interests
...
More than half (13) of the top 25 quota holders have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of offences in Scotland’s £63m “black fish” scam
...
Around 29% of UK fishing quota is directly controlled by Rich List families. Some of these families have investments in dozens of other fishing companies, meaning companies holding 37% of UK quota are wholly or partly owned by these Rich List families.

how does the new Brexit deal change this?

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:40 pm https://www.google.com/amp/s/unearthed. ... -gove/amp/

More than a quarter of the United Kingdom’s fishing quota is in the hands of a tiny group of the country’s wealthiest families
...
It reveals that more than two-thirds of the UK’s fishing quota is controlled by just 25 businesses
...
Meanwhile, in England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler.
...
Around half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interests
...
More than half (13) of the top 25 quota holders have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of offences in Scotland’s £63m “black fish” scam
...
Around 29% of UK fishing quota is directly controlled by Rich List families. Some of these families have investments in dozens of other fishing companies, meaning companies holding 37% of UK quota are wholly or partly owned by these Rich List families.

how does the new Brexit deal change this?

It is the same the world over, not different to the other major fishing nations. There are things they could impose like no one company could own more than 15% like Iceland but that just means you end up with about 6 companies owning the majority, just like Iceland.

Of bigger impact will be an enforced landing obligation where our boats need to land back into the UK and not land in foreign ports, this will create far more job and economic benefit than splitting up the quota ownership.

Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:11 pm

westport wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:52 am

Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:06 am Telegraph suggesting EU have accepted that the UK'S sovereignty will be recognised in any deal on fishing.

Article in Irish Times saying UK landbridge non-viable for Irish firms shipping goods to the continent. TBH from my POV this is the only real positive of Brexit, with hopefully less lorries on the road.

A friend of mine is in haulage industry - both in UK and into Europe - he says that DFDS have re-entered the Irish ferry game with a new Rosslare to Dunkirk service in preperation for no deal. 24 hour transit time (about double the landbridge time) and not big enough capacity but its a (bad) start for Ireland. It appears the new service only has the capacity for around 650 lorries a week.

Thats pretty bad news for Ireland. If the landbridge is no longer viable and alternatives don't have anywhere near enough capacity and thats before we get to the cost increases.

Outbound and inbound it does add 24 hours to every Irish lorry trvelling to the continent though. That means if every Paddy Scania used that route they need 20% more vehicles and drivers to achieve the same delivery rate they have now.

On that basis alone the obvious knock on is that tranport of Irish exports by road just got 20% more expensive., plus the cost differential between landbridge and direct ferries which probably means 25-30% cost increase overall.

Interesting bit of that is how many more Irish operators will end up over running working days on tacho and end up with drivers having to take their weekly rest before returning to Ireland.

Clearly Brexit is bad for Ireland. Lack of preparation for Brexit was perhaps due to Ireland's strength and confidence during the WA negotiations, and the belief that the UK would fold.
I wonder if there is an agreement, both sides could also agree to an implementation period. After all, the UK is not going to be a threat to EU 1 second past midnight on Jan 1st. Something to help Ireland get better connections to Europe sorted. Didn't Cammy say they had big boats being made, not heard how that is coming on? Even without it, previous ideas like trusted trader might have a place. I'm no expert on this of course, but the EU need to recognise how difficult this is for Ireland.

The EU don't give a stuff about Ireland, they were useful when little Leo was trying to be their rottweiller.

I made two statements in a post last night, I’ll concede they were a bit vague, but the first was that the EU pretty much saved the Scottish fishing industry, this was to do with quotas as overfishing was a real problem and could have led to obliteration of the industry. The discards bring their own problems right enough.

The second statement was that Gove lied, he said in a couple of interviews that his father’s business was destroyed by EU policies. His father was later quoted as saying that he sold his business as a going concern, it was his choice.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:09 pm I made two statements in a post last night, I’ll concede they were a bit vague, but the first was that the EU pretty much saved the Scottish fishing industry, this was to do with quotas as overfishing was a real problem and could have led to obliteration of the industry. The discards bring their own problems right enough.

The second statement was that Gove lied, he said in a couple of interviews that his father’s business was destroyed by EU policies. His father was later quoted as saying that he sold his business as a going concern, it was his choice.

You are wrong on both counts, the EU are terrible at fisheries management and most certainly did not save the Scottish industry.that is utter nonsense, it’s a fraction of what it was and indeed should be.

The worst Gove could be accused of with his assertion is of guiding the lily.

Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:15 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:09 pm I made two statements in a post last night, I’ll concede they were a bit vague, but the first was that the EU pretty much saved the Scottish fishing industry, this was to do with quotas as overfishing was a real problem and could have led to obliteration of the industry. The discards bring their own problems right enough.

The second statement was that Gove lied, he said in a couple of interviews that his father’s business was destroyed by EU policies. His father was later quoted as saying that he sold his business as a going concern, it was his choice.

You are wrong on both counts, the EU are terrible at fisheries management and most certainly did not save the Scottish industry.that is utter nonsense, it’s a fraction of what it was and indeed should be.

The worst Gove could be accused of with his assertion is of guiding the lily.

Gove said on several occasions, in interviews and speeches, that his father’s business went to the wall as a result of EU policies, his father flatly denied it. Call it gilding the lily if you want, it was false information.

Are you saying that overfishing wasn’t an issue?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:23 pm

Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:15 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:09 pm I made two statements in a post last night, I’ll concede they were a bit vague, but the first was that the EU pretty much saved the Scottish fishing industry, this was to do with quotas as overfishing was a real problem and could have led to obliteration of the industry. The discards bring their own problems right enough.

The second statement was that Gove lied, he said in a couple of interviews that his father’s business was destroyed by EU policies. His father was later quoted as saying that he sold his business as a going concern, it was his choice.

You are wrong on both counts, the EU are terrible at fisheries management and most certainly did not save the Scottish industry.that is utter nonsense, it’s a fraction of what it was and indeed should be.

The worst Gove could be accused of with his assertion is of guiding the lily.

Gove said on several occasions, in interviews and speeches, that his father’s business went to the wall as a result of EU policies, his father flatly denied it. Call it gilding the lily if you want, it was false information.

Are you saying that overfishing wasn’t an issue?

You got some quotes from his father denying it?

Where did I say overfishing wasn’t and for that matter isn’t an issue? The eu are shite at fisheries management. I can’t be arsed with an internet argument, you with power of google against my decades of experience. You carry on though, try and catch me out and win some internet points.

Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:50 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:23 pm

Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:15 pm

You are wrong on both counts, the EU are terrible at fisheries management and most certainly did not save the Scottish industry.that is utter nonsense, it’s a fraction of what it was and indeed should be.

The worst Gove could be accused of with his assertion is of guiding the lily.

Gove said on several occasions, in interviews and speeches, that his father’s business went to the wall as a result of EU policies, his father flatly denied it. Call it gilding the lily if you want, it was false information.

Are you saying that overfishing wasn’t an issue?

You got some quotes from his father denying it?

"My father had a fishing business in Aberdeen destroyed by the European Union and the Common Fisheries Policy," he told a live studio audience.

But it seems his father Ernest, who with his wife Christine adopted Michael when he was a baby, has a different recollection of the demise of his business in Aberdeen.

"It wasn't any hardship or things like that. I just decided to call it a day and just sold up my business and went on to work with someone else," he told The Guardian.

https://news.sky.com/story/gove-fillete ... e-10315067