NPR

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:26 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:51 am Fuck me that 2nd half was shite. The mind set of Scotland is fucking poor.

I guess it was inevitable. End of a long season, modest opposition, game clearly in the bag, players mentally clocked off.

I don't imagine the other home nations would have only managed to beat Chile by 40

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:13 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:26 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:51 am Fuck me that 2nd half was shite. The mind set of Scotland is fucking poor.

I guess it was inevitable. End of a long season, modest opposition, game clearly in the bag, players mentally clocked off.

I don't imagine the other home nations would have only managed to beat Chile by 40

No, but their A sides might have.

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:01 pm Crosbie feels like he's been with Edinburgh for years and his international journey is late but he's only 25

The problem Crosbie has from an international perspective is Boyle (who looks like he might settle at 6) is hot on his heels, and behind that Liam McConnell looks exceptional. When you add in that the likes of Fagerson and Bradbury are comfortable at 6, as is Skinner and Muncaster and that is a lot of established and young talent competing for 2nd best 6 behind Richie.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:11 pm

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:01 pm Crosbie feels like he's been with Edinburgh for years and his international journey is late but he's only 25

The problem Crosbie has from an international perspective is Boyle (who looks like he might settle at 6) is hot on his heels, and behind that Liam McConnell looks exceptional. When you add in that the likes of Fagerson and Bradbury are comfortable at 6, as is Skinner and Muncaster and that is a lot of established and young talent competing for 2nd best 6 behind Richie.

Boyle is an out and out 7. Unless he plays so well you have to accommodate him and Watson or Darge there's no way he plays 6 long term.

Crosbie needs to play better than Ritchie or Watson and he'll get in the Scotland team. He's one of them I thought should leave as Edinburgh have too many good back rows unless you're Ritchie, Watson or Mata you'll be second choice but Crosbie is easy good enough to start for an English club.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:07 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:11 pm

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:01 pm Crosbie feels like he's been with Edinburgh for years and his international journey is late but he's only 25

The problem Crosbie has from an international perspective is Boyle (who looks like he might settle at 6) is hot on his heels, and behind that Liam McConnell looks exceptional. When you add in that the likes of Fagerson and Bradbury are comfortable at 6, as is Skinner and Muncaster and that is a lot of established and young talent competing for 2nd best 6 behind Richie.

Boyle is an out and out 7. Unless he plays so well you have to accommodate him and Watson or Darge there's no way he plays 6 long term.

Crosbie needs to play better than Ritchie or Watson and he'll get in the Scotland team. He's one of them I thought should leave as Edinburgh have too many good back rows unless you're Ritchie, Watson or Mata you'll be second choice but Crosbie is easy good enough to start for an English club.

I don’t agree.

At 6 he is behind Richie, but also IMO Fagerson and Bradbury playing 6 and like I say I think Boyle may end at 6. Muncaster is also playing a lot at 6 too. Christie and Skinner may well come into the reckoning there too.
At 7 he is behind Watson and Darge. Tait coming through in the 20s looks like another excellent 7 and you may end up being right about Boyle at 7 too.
I don’t think Crosbie is a particularly good 8, but he is behind Fagerson, Bradbury and Skinner there too. Likely Muncaster will jump ahead of him at 8 pretty quickly and then there is Leatherbarrow coming through at Exeter who also looks very good.

I’m not saying Crosbie isn’t a good player, he is actually one of my favourites as he brings a bit of dog that we are often short of. What I am saying is I think the mixture of established players (all of whom are at most marginally older than him except Watson) ahead of him in the queue plus the fact that some of our best players breaking through are back-rowers means he will struggle to get many caps.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:50 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:07 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:11 pm

The problem Crosbie has from an international perspective is Boyle (who looks like he might settle at 6) is hot on his heels, and behind that Liam McConnell looks exceptional. When you add in that the likes of Fagerson and Bradbury are comfortable at 6, as is Skinner and Muncaster and that is a lot of established and young talent competing for 2nd best 6 behind Richie.

Boyle is an out and out 7. Unless he plays so well you have to accommodate him and Watson or Darge there's no way he plays 6 long term.

Crosbie needs to play better than Ritchie or Watson and he'll get in the Scotland team. He's one of them I thought should leave as Edinburgh have too many good back rows unless you're Ritchie, Watson or Mata you'll be second choice but Crosbie is easy good enough to start for an English club.

I don’t agree.

At 6 he is behind Richie, but also IMO Fagerson and Bradbury playing 6 and like I say I think Boyle may end at 6. Muncaster is also playing a lot at 6 too. Christie and Skinner may well come into the reckoning there too.
At 7 he is behind Watson and Darge. Tait coming through in the 20s looks like another excellent 7 and you may end up being right about Boyle at 7 too.
I don’t think Crosbie is a particularly good 8, but he is behind Fagerson, Bradbury and Skinner there too. Likely Muncaster will jump ahead of him at 8 pretty quickly and then there is Leatherbarrow coming through at Exeter who also looks very good.

I’m not saying Crosbie isn’t a good player, he is actually one of my favourites as he brings a bit of dog that we are often short of. What I am saying is I think the mixture of established players (all of whom are at most marginally older than him except Watson) ahead of him in the queue plus the fact that some of our best players breaking through are back-rowers means he will struggle to get many caps.

I agree he won't get many caps because of the strength in depth we have but he should have left Edinburgh to nail down a starting spot elsewhere when it became clear Mata, Ritchie and Watson were staying on to help his chances of that. Not that the SRU should always move players in pro teams but I think Crosbie is a better 6 than Matt Fagerson with Dempsey at 8 and Darge 7. Bradbury is a bit hot and cold but he's probably a bit better than Crosbie, I'm not convinced with Fagerson. I like Muncaster but it's early for him - not impossible he doesn't reach the level of Crosbie. I think Bayliss and Christie are good players too. However, it seems Townsend has largely given up the Skinner at 6 idea. So yes, huge competition.

I just don't see it with Boyle at 6. Boyle has never played 6? In the 20s Darge moved to 8 so Boyle could play at 7. For Edinburgh I genuinely can't recall him ever playing 6, he's exclusively been at 7? Unless I'm forgetting a match. What about Boyle to you suggests he's a 6? He's not big enough. He's a classic openside flanker in his style of play and physique. He'll be battling Darge for the next decade at openside.

The Scotland u20s team is genuinely awful and has been for two years so it's hard to judge them. I like the look of Leatherbarrow but his development relies on Exeter picking him, I think Tait has shown up in a dreadful team but it's hard to judge how good he really is as the team is so bad and it's too early to judge when McConnell will be pro ready.

Goes back to a point I've made previously which is that I'd rather Mish and/or BBM had moved on to accommodate some of the younger bsckrowrrs. Still grinds my gears seeing Darge at Glasgow but understand why.

But we can imagine in a pre-,RWC year we'll see Ritchie and Mish closely managed, and with Champions Cup ruby all bsckrowrrs will be needed

Anyone fancy a stab at predicting the team for Saturday ?

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:57 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:50 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:07 pm

Boyle is an out and out 7. Unless he plays so well you have to accommodate him and Watson or Darge there's no way he plays 6 long term.

Crosbie needs to play better than Ritchie or Watson and he'll get in the Scotland team. He's one of them I thought should leave as Edinburgh have too many good back rows unless you're Ritchie, Watson or Mata you'll be second choice but Crosbie is easy good enough to start for an English club.

I don’t agree.

At 6 he is behind Richie, but also IMO Fagerson and Bradbury playing 6 and like I say I think Boyle may end at 6. Muncaster is also playing a lot at 6 too. Christie and Skinner may well come into the reckoning there too.
At 7 he is behind Watson and Darge. Tait coming through in the 20s looks like another excellent 7 and you may end up being right about Boyle at 7 too.
I don’t think Crosbie is a particularly good 8, but he is behind Fagerson, Bradbury and Skinner there too. Likely Muncaster will jump ahead of him at 8 pretty quickly and then there is Leatherbarrow coming through at Exeter who also looks very good.

I’m not saying Crosbie isn’t a good player, he is actually one of my favourites as he brings a bit of dog that we are often short of. What I am saying is I think the mixture of established players (all of whom are at most marginally older than him except Watson) ahead of him in the queue plus the fact that some of our best players breaking through are back-rowers means he will struggle to get many caps.

I agree he won't get many caps because of the strength in depth we have but he should have left Edinburgh to nail down a starting spot elsewhere when it became clear Mata, Ritchie and Watson were staying on to help his chances of that. Not that the SRU should always move players in pro teams but I think Crosbie is a better 6 than Matt Fagerson with Dempsey at 8 and Darge 7. Bradbury is a bit hot and cold but he's probably a bit better than Crosbie, I'm not convinced with Fagerson. I like Muncaster but it's early for him - not impossible he doesn't reach the level of Crosbie. I think Bayliss and Christie are good players too. However, it seems Townsend has largely given up the Skinner at 6 idea. So yes, huge competition.

I just don't see it with Boyle at 6. Boyle has never played 6? In the 20s Darge moved to 8 so Boyle could play at 7. For Edinburgh I genuinely can't recall him ever playing 6, he's exclusively been at 7? Unless I'm forgetting a match. What about Boyle to you suggests he's a 6? He's not big enough. He's a classic openside flanker in his style of play and physique. He'll be battling Darge for the next decade at openside.

The Scotland u20s team is genuinely awful and has been for two years so it's hard to judge them. I like the look of Leatherbarrow but his development relies on Exeter picking him, I think Tait has shown up in a dreadful team but it's hard to judge how good he really is as the team is so bad and it's too early to judge when McConnell will be pro ready.

The should have left point is an interesting one. He is clearly good enough to be an international player, if maybe a little short of what is required to be absolutely top drawer. You could argue that amongst the reasons that have made Leinster so successful in recent years is that they have managed to retain players of Crosbie's quality to be squad players. If Edinburgh can manage similar within their budget, and Crosbie is happy staying, then maybe it is better for Scottish Rugby if he stays.

I have to admit I had completely forgotten about Bayliss, who is a very good player, another to add to the depth chart at 6. I don't think the Skinner experiment has run its course - against the biggest sides I still think Toonie will be tempted, especially if Richie isn't available. He played about a 3rd of his games at either 6 or 7 in for Exeter this season, it all depends on how Edinburgh choose to use him I think. I'll relent on the Boyle point as you are right, he hasn't played there at all. I was certain he had dropped into 6 through the season but it appears I was imagining it!

Yeh, I've watched a fair bit of the 20s over the last few tournaments and they have been consistently poor. It's hard to say what's driving that, because they are getting more gametime at a higher standard than ever before via super6. I am starting to wonder if its coaching to be honest, as the defence in particular looks exceptionally organisationally weak. Nevertheless, Leatherbarrow has stood out at that level already. McConnell probably6 has at least another year, possibly more, before he will be ready, although I have heard whispers of a Richie style pro deal straight from School, the lad is a physical freak for his age.

Edinburgh absolutely have to keep players like Crosbie - look at what happened this season just finished where, for all our much vaunted depth in the pack and especially the back row, we had to pick Rudi Brown for back row sub, a few months past his 19th birthday and Jamie Campbell at lock, who was himself still 19 (just) on his debut. The "not available list for that match was;

Unavailable due to injury: Luan de Bruin, Luke Crosbie, Nick Haining, Damien Hoyland, James Johnstone, Viliame Mata, Jamie Ritchie, Marshall Sykes, Ben Toolis

International selection: Mark Bennett, Magnus Bradbury, Darcy Graham, Grant Gilchrist, Jamie Hodgson, Stuart McInally, WP Nel, Pierre Schoeman, Hamish Watson

Just the 18 not available that day

This happens every season, the only way Edinburgh (or any side) can be successful is if we can replace players and not see a significant drop in quality, even when we are down to fourth choices. Okay not everyone is a Jamie Ritchie, but replacing him with the players we have is not that bad an option.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:04 am Edinburgh absolutely have to keep players like Crosbie - look at what happened this season just finished where, for all our much vaunted depth in the pack and especially the back row, we had to pick Rudi Brown for back row sub, a few months past his 19th birthday and Jamie Campbell at lock, who was himself still 19 (just) on his debut. The "not available list for that match was;

Unavailable due to injury: Luan de Bruin, Luke Crosbie, Nick Haining, Damien Hoyland, James Johnstone, Viliame Mata, Jamie Ritchie, Marshall Sykes, Ben Toolis

International selection: Mark Bennett, Magnus Bradbury, Darcy Graham, Grant Gilchrist, Jamie Hodgson, Stuart McInally, WP Nel, Pierre Schoeman, Hamish Watson

Just the 18 not available that day

This happens every season, the only way Edinburgh (or any side) can be successful is if we can replace players and not see a significant drop in quality, even when we are down to fourth choices. Okay not everyone is a Jamie Ritchie, but replacing him with the players we have is not that bad an option.

Edinburgh should want to keep Crosbie. But, I think Crosbie should want to leave. What's best for Crosbie - week in first pick somewhere or sitting on the bench waiting for injuries? You'd have to think being a starter. He's 25 now, Ritchie and Watson have a few more years at least. He should want to be week in starter and if that's somewhere else I think he'd have to consider that.

I think everyone presumed Ritchie, Mata or Watson would leave and Crosbie would come in. But, French clubs signing fewer international born players and English clubs drastically cutting the cap there weren't good offers. So Crosbie is still where he was.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:13 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:04 am Edinburgh absolutely have to keep players like Crosbie - look at what happened this season just finished where, for all our much vaunted depth in the pack and especially the back row, we had to pick Rudi Brown for back row sub, a few months past his 19th birthday and Jamie Campbell at lock, who was himself still 19 (just) on his debut. The "not available list for that match was;

Unavailable due to injury: Luan de Bruin, Luke Crosbie, Nick Haining, Damien Hoyland, James Johnstone, Viliame Mata, Jamie Ritchie, Marshall Sykes, Ben Toolis

International selection: Mark Bennett, Magnus Bradbury, Darcy Graham, Grant Gilchrist, Jamie Hodgson, Stuart McInally, WP Nel, Pierre Schoeman, Hamish Watson

Just the 18 not available that day

This happens every season, the only way Edinburgh (or any side) can be successful is if we can replace players and not see a significant drop in quality, even when we are down to fourth choices. Okay not everyone is a Jamie Ritchie, but replacing him with the players we have is not that bad an option.

Edinburgh should want to keep Crosbie. But, I think Crosbie should want to leave. What's best for Crosbie - week in first pick somewhere or sitting on the bench waiting for injuries? You'd have to think being a starter. He's 25 now, Ritchie and Watson have a few more years at least. He should want to be week in starter and if that's somewhere else I think he'd have to consider that.

Ritchie has more than a few years, I hope, he's still only 25 himself.

If Edinburgh (and Scotland) are picking on form then Crosbie is currently ahead of Watson, I don't see any reason for that not to continue. Watson will come back but I also think Crosbie can kick on to an even higher level than he is playing at now. It's not set in stone that he's behind anyone at Edinburgh any more.

Mata's injury was bad, he only started running a few weeks back, he turn 31 in the Autumn, I hope we see him back at his best but I'm not holding my breath on it.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:08 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:13 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:26 am

I guess it was inevitable. End of a long season, modest opposition, game clearly in the bag, players mentally clocked off.

I don't imagine the other home nations would have only managed to beat Chile by 40

No, but their A sides might have.

Nah, I can't see anyone else sitting back in the 2nd half like they did.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:22 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:13 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:04 am Edinburgh absolutely have to keep players like Crosbie - look at what happened this season just finished where, for all our much vaunted depth in the pack and especially the back row, we had to pick Rudi Brown for back row sub, a few months past his 19th birthday and Jamie Campbell at lock, who was himself still 19 (just) on his debut. The "not available list for that match was;

Unavailable due to injury: Luan de Bruin, Luke Crosbie, Nick Haining, Damien Hoyland, James Johnstone, Viliame Mata, Jamie Ritchie, Marshall Sykes, Ben Toolis

International selection: Mark Bennett, Magnus Bradbury, Darcy Graham, Grant Gilchrist, Jamie Hodgson, Stuart McInally, WP Nel, Pierre Schoeman, Hamish Watson

Just the 18 not available that day

This happens every season, the only way Edinburgh (or any side) can be successful is if we can replace players and not see a significant drop in quality, even when we are down to fourth choices. Okay not everyone is a Jamie Ritchie, but replacing him with the players we have is not that bad an option.

Edinburgh should want to keep Crosbie. But, I think Crosbie should want to leave. What's best for Crosbie - week in first pick somewhere or sitting on the bench waiting for injuries? You'd have to think being a starter. He's 25 now, Ritchie and Watson have a few more years at least. He should want to be week in starter and if that's somewhere else I think he'd have to consider that.

Ritchie has more than a few years, I hope, he's still only 25 himself.

If Edinburgh (and Scotland) are picking on form then Crosbie is currently ahead of Watson, I don't see any reason for that not to continue. Watson will come back but I also think Crosbie can kick on to an even higher level than he is playing at now. It's not set in stone that he's behind anyone at Edinburgh any more.

Mata's injury was bad, he only started running a few weeks back, he turn 31 in the Autumn, I hope we see him back at his best but I'm not holding my breath on it.

Mata doesn't really affect Crosbie as he won't play 8 nor will Ritchie/Watson. I guess it would mean Muncaster or Kunavalu plays 8 not 6 so helps with a spot.

I agree. I don't think it's set in stone but Watson is a BII and Ritchie is phenomenal, I can't imagine many clubs have as good starters at 6 and 7. I think he'd surely have to consider a move if he got the chance to start every week though.

Scottish Caley Fan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:46 pm Anyone fancy a stab at predicting the team for Saturday ?

I'd go for

Schooey, Turner, Fagerson, Cummings, Gilchrist, Fagerson, Crosbie, Bradbury

Price, Kinghorn, vdMerwe, Hutchinson, Bennett, Graham, Smith

Cherry, Sutherland, Sebastian, Gray, Watson, Tuipulotu/Johnson, Thompson, Horne

I've tried to go for a mix of what I'd want and what I think Toonie will go for. I'd start Cherry, his throwing is better than any other hooker we have, but th trade off is with Turner's work in the loose.
I really hope we play Hutchinson as a second five-eighth type distributer where he's been excellent for Saints.
I'm not entirely sure about Smith, we could put Graham there and Hoyland would be unlucky to miss out altogether after his performance at the weekend.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:33 am
Mata doesn't really affect Crosbie as he won't play 8 nor will Ritchie/Watson. I guess it would mean Muncaster or Kunavalu plays 8 not 6 so helps with a spot.

I agree. I don't think it's set in stone but Watson is a BII and Ritchie is phenomenal, I can't imagine many clubs have as good starters at 6 and 7. I think he'd surely have to consider a move if he got the chance to start every week though.

Mata does affect Crosbie because he is the first name on the teamsheet, so he impacts on the entire backrow balance, it doesn't matter that Watson is a BIL, he was worth that jersey and in my opinion he should have started ahead of Curry because he was the best openside at that time.

What matters in next week's selection is how someone played last week and how they have trained this week, not how well they were playing a year ago.
For me Crosbie has been playing better than Watson this season.
Having said that I think Watson was showing signs of getting his mojo back towards the end of term, but right now I'd still pick Crosbie first with Watson on the bench, not just for form, but to show that if you are playing the best rugby you will be picked.

I'm not convinced with Fagerson

I'd have agreed with this maybe 18 months ago but he has proven me wrong. I think he has really stepped up in a Scotland jersey and looked like a proper senior player for much of the game on Saturday, he'd be my starting 8 at the moment.

I've argued this before, but I'm still stumped on it.

Luke Crosbie is bigger than Johnnie Beattie, Sergio Parisse and Kieran Read (usual caveat about Wiki stats apply). He is very quick and has good hands. He is a very good lineout option, he is good over the ball and is an extremely abrasive runner in heavy traffic, usually breaking tackles and making ground.

Can someone explain exactly why he is not seen as an option at 8? It's can't just be controlling the ball at the back of a scrum, can it? You can spend a fortnight behind a fast retreating scrum at training and learn all you need to know.

All players need to have cross-over skills now, but the difference in the backrow particularly is blurring, aye you still have the specialist fetcher types, but everyone is expected to be good over the ball, from full back to loose head prop.

​Edinburgh Rugby today completed the signing of loosehead prop Nick Auterac who joins the capital club ahead of the 2022/23 season.

Auterac, 29, will make the move north this summer after leaving English Premiership side Northampton Saints, whom the experienced prop initially joined in 2020.

The former Saracens, Bath and Harlequins front-rower was named in the Scotland squad for last year’s cancelled Sumer Tests and now readies himself for what he calls ‘an extremely exciting next chapter’ north of the border.

Auterac said: “The city speaks for itself. I have visited briefly in the past and enjoyed that short trip whilst everyone I have spoken to, inside and outside of rugby, cannot speak highly enough of both Edinburgh Rugby and the Scottish capital.

“Joining Edinburgh is an extremely exciting next chapter for me. The club has been in great form over the last few seasons.”

A graduate of Saracens academy – during which period the prop enjoyed loan spells at both London Scottish and Bedford Blues – Auterac made the move to Bath in 2014 where he played a major role in helping the West Country side reach the 2015 Premiership Final.

The prop made 46 appearances in four seasons at The Rec before returning to London where he signed for Harlequins in 2018.

Following two years at The Stoop, the former Mill Hill School pupil made the move to Northampton in 2020 during Premiership Rugby's COVID-19 enforced hiatus.

With 19 appearances in the black, green and gold, Auterac will now play his rugby outwith England for the very first time and the prop is relishing the exciting new challenge of the URC.

“The opportunity to play in not only the URC but also the Champions Cup is a challenge I am relishing,” he continued.

“As a player, I would like to think my set piece is up there with the best and I believe I can be a world class scrummager.

“I also like to think, for a prop, I am a pretty good runner of the ball with some speed and obviously quite a bit of weight behind me.

“The general high standards of the squad and club was a huge factor in me joining and wanting to develop further as a player.

“I have also been fortunate to work with Mike Blair in previous Scotland camps, we had a really good relationship and he was another major factor for me signing in Edinburgh.”

Edinburgh Rugby Head Coach Mike Blair – who worked with Auterac during his spell as Scotland Interim Head Coach last summer – has backed Auterac’s move north and said:

“When the opportunity to sign Nick [Auterac] came about, we jumped at it. Having coached him with Scotland, and watched his games in the English Premiership, we know the type of player he is and the added quality he can bring to the squad.

“We’ve got a really talented group of looseheads at the club already with Pierre Schoeman, Boan Venter and Jamie Jack – while Harrison Courtney will once again be with us on a partnership contract – but as we’ve seen with injuries and international call-ups, it’s vital to build a strong squad with players that can step up straight away.

“Nick is a great guy who’ll fit in well the players and staff here at the club. We’re excited to welcome him to Edinburgh this summer.”

Decent signing, even if it is "Get the out-of-contract SQ guy signed up". We have a good stable of looseheads but we are short on the other side in terms of quality, The Mighty WP can't go on forever.

It's an area of concern that we don't have any props coming up through the Scottish ranks, though

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:07 am I've argued this before, but I'm still stumped on it.

Luke Crosbie is bigger than Johnnie Beattie, Sergio Parisse and Kieran Read (usual caveat about Wiki stats apply). He is very quick and has good hands. He is a very good lineout option, he is good over the ball and is an extremely abrasive runner in heavy traffic, usually breaking tackles and making ground.

Can someone explain exactly why he is not seen as an option at 8? It's can't just be controlling the ball at the back of a scrum, can it? You can spend a fortnight behind a fast retreating scrum at training and learn all you need to know.

All players need to have cross-over skills now, but the difference in the backrow particularly is blurring, aye you still have the specialist fetcher types, but everyone is expected to be good over the ball, from full back to loose head prop.

Tichtheid is Eddie Jones and I claim my "Eddie is a genius" bumper sticker

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:27 am Decent signing, even if it is "Get the out-of-contract SQ guy signed up". We have a good stable of looseheads but we are short on the other side in terms of quality, The Mighty WP can't go on forever.

It's an area of concern that we don't have any props coming up through the Scottish ranks, though

Hmmm. Bit of a journeyman knacker. Been let go by every club he's signed for.

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:27 am Decent signing, even if it is "Get the out-of-contract SQ guy signed up". We have a good stable of looseheads but we are short on the other side in terms of quality, The Mighty WP can't go on forever.

It's an area of concern that we don't have any props coming up through the Scottish ranks, though

Hmmm. Bit of a journeyman knacker. Been let go by every club he's signed for.

He's going to be third choice. Schoeman and Venter are both top drawer props.

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:27 am Decent signing, even if it is "Get the out-of-contract SQ guy signed up". We have a good stable of looseheads but we are short on the other side in terms of quality, The Mighty WP can't go on forever.

It's an area of concern that we don't have any props coming up through the Scottish ranks, though

Hmmm. Bit of a journeyman knacker. Been let go by every club he's signed for.

We seem to specialise in these guys, Darryl Marfo came in out of the wilderness, was pretty poor for a couple of months and then became a very good club prop. Pietro Ceccarelli was playing in Pro D2 before coming in to Edinburgh and resurrecting his career in a decent Italian front row.

As it stands Auterac will be duking it out for third place loosehead behind Schoeman and Venter

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:07 am I've argued this before, but I'm still stumped on it.

Luke Crosbie is bigger than Johnnie Beattie, Sergio Parisse and Kieran Read (usual caveat about Wiki stats apply). He is very quick and has good hands. He is a very good lineout option, he is good over the ball and is an extremely abrasive runner in heavy traffic, usually breaking tackles and making ground.

Can someone explain exactly why he is not seen as an option at 8? It's can't just be controlling the ball at the back of a scrum, can it? You can spend a fortnight behind a fast retreating scrum at training and learn all you need to know.

All players need to have cross-over skills now, but the difference in the backrow particularly is blurring, aye you still have the specialist fetcher types, but everyone is expected to be good over the ball, from full back to loose head prop.

Tichtheid is Eddie Jones and I claim my "Eddie is a genius" bumper sticker

I seriously don't know what you mean here?

Do you mean Crosbie is never an 8?

If so why?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:52 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:33 am
Mata doesn't really affect Crosbie as he won't play 8 nor will Ritchie/Watson. I guess it would mean Muncaster or Kunavalu plays 8 not 6 so helps with a spot.

I agree. I don't think it's set in stone but Watson is a BII and Ritchie is phenomenal, I can't imagine many clubs have as good starters at 6 and 7. I think he'd surely have to consider a move if he got the chance to start every week though.

Mata does affect Crosbie because he is the first name on the teamsheet, so he impacts on the entire backrow balance, it doesn't matter that Watson is a BIL, he was worth that jersey and in my opinion he should have started ahead of Curry because he was the best openside at that time.

What matters in next week's selection is how someone played last week and how they have trained this week, not how well they were playing a year ago.
For me Crosbie has been playing better than Watson this season.
Having said that I think Watson was showing signs of getting his mojo back towards the end of term, but right now I'd still pick Crosbie first with Watson on the bench, not just for form, but to show that if you are playing the best rugby you will be picked.

I don't think that's entirely true. I think coaches mostly pick on who they trust to do the job more. Whether they pick the guy on form or the guy with the reputation. I think Watson wins that selection battle.

Case in point Scotland - let's see if Toonie goes for his tried and tested Darge Watson combo or puts the form guy in there.

On Crosbie and 8 he's a much different player to Read, Parrise and Beattie. They were all masters at manipulating contact and playing a bit wider.

I was looking to see whether Crosbie had played as an 8, he is listed at 8 in a U20s game against France. We lost that game heavily, no surprise there.

France's third try was scored by Faraj Fartass.


You can take the boy out of of his pre-teens, but you can't...etc

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:35 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:27 am Decent signing, even if it is "Get the out-of-contract SQ guy signed up". We have a good stable of looseheads but we are short on the other side in terms of quality, The Mighty WP can't go on forever.

It's an area of concern that we don't have any props coming up through the Scottish ranks, though

Hmmm. Bit of a journeyman knacker. Been let go by every club he's signed for.

He's going to be third choice. Schoeman and Venter are both top drawer props.

Third/fourth choice is probably his level!!!!

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:43 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:52 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:33 am
Mata doesn't really affect Crosbie as he won't play 8 nor will Ritchie/Watson. I guess it would mean Muncaster or Kunavalu plays 8 not 6 so helps with a spot.

I agree. I don't think it's set in stone but Watson is a BII and Ritchie is phenomenal, I can't imagine many clubs have as good starters at 6 and 7. I think he'd surely have to consider a move if he got the chance to start every week though.

Mata does affect Crosbie because he is the first name on the teamsheet, so he impacts on the entire backrow balance, it doesn't matter that Watson is a BIL, he was worth that jersey and in my opinion he should have started ahead of Curry because he was the best openside at that time.

What matters in next week's selection is how someone played last week and how they have trained this week, not how well they were playing a year ago.
For me Crosbie has been playing better than Watson this season.
Having said that I think Watson was showing signs of getting his mojo back towards the end of term, but right now I'd still pick Crosbie first with Watson on the bench, not just for form, but to show that if you are playing the best rugby you will be picked.

I don't think that's entirely true. I think coaches mostly pick on who they trust to do the job more. Whether they pick the guy on form or the guy with the reputation. I think Watson wins that selection battle.

Case in point Scotland - let's see if Toonie goes for his tried and tested Darge Watson combo or puts the form guy in there.

On Crosbie and 8 he's a much different player to Read, Parrise and Beattie. They were all masters at manipulating contact and playing a bit wider.

How many times have Darge and Watson played together? It can't be more than four, five at most.
If we go Darge, Watson, Fagerson that is a short-arse back row with no lineout threat, so far more pressure on Turner's darts.

The point on Crosbie is another one I don't understand, you play where you are told to play, Crosbie can hang back and truck up the restarts or he can play wide if he has to, in fact with his pace and distribution* he'd excel at it, it's not something that is outwith his capabilities.

*yes there was one run a month ago where he should have passed instead of taking contact.

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:58 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:35 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am
Hmmm. Bit of a journeyman knacker. Been let go by every club he's signed for.

He's going to be third choice. Schoeman and Venter are both top drawer props.

Third/fourth choice is probably his level!!!!

Yep, never made much of an impression at Saints, overall you have to say his promise has never really been fulfilled. A few games here and there over a couple of years and he'll be off elsewhere again.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:38 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:07 am I've argued this before, but I'm still stumped on it.

Luke Crosbie is bigger than Johnnie Beattie, Sergio Parisse and Kieran Read (usual caveat about Wiki stats apply). He is very quick and has good hands. He is a very good lineout option, he is good over the ball and is an extremely abrasive runner in heavy traffic, usually breaking tackles and making ground.

Can someone explain exactly why he is not seen as an option at 8? It's can't just be controlling the ball at the back of a scrum, can it? You can spend a fortnight behind a fast retreating scrum at training and learn all you need to know.

All players need to have cross-over skills now, but the difference in the backrow particularly is blurring, aye you still have the specialist fetcher types, but everyone is expected to be good over the ball, from full back to loose head prop.

Tichtheid is Eddie Jones and I claim my "Eddie is a genius" bumper sticker

I seriously don't know what you mean here?

Do you mean Crosbie is never an 8?

If so why?

Sorry, just a bit of joshing that didn't work! The reference was to Eddie Jones and his statements on folk (Curry) playing across the back row and Nowell being a possibility.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:29 am

Sorry, just a bit of joshing that didn't work! The reference was to Eddie Jones and his statements on folk (Curry) playing across the back row and Nowell being a possibility.

No worries, of course there are specialisms, scrummaging, lineout work, being the big ball carrier at restarts, being a pace merchant on the wing, high ball skills in the back three, the pass of the scrum half, the decision making at fly half etc.

However there are skills that everyone has to have now, tackling, passing, jackaling, good hands, these are prerequisites for any pro player, the guys who used to be able to do everything well played in the back row, now everyone has to have these skills.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:13 am
Edinburgh should want to keep Crosbie. But, I think Crosbie should want to leave. What's best for Crosbie - week in first pick somewhere or sitting on the bench waiting for injuries? You'd have to think being a starter. He's 25 now, Ritchie and Watson have a few more years at least. He should want to be week in starter and if that's somewhere else I think he'd have to consider that.

I think everyone presumed Ritchie, Mata or Watson would leave and Crosbie would come in. But, French clubs signing fewer international born players and English clubs drastically cutting the cap there weren't good offers. So Crosbie is still where he was.

On paper Crosbie is a bench player because we have a stacked back row, but in practice he's got 69 appearances for Edinburgh and he's predominantly a starter when he's in the matchday 23. Over the last few seasons he's appeared more often for Edinburgh than Hamish Watson.

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:04 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:13 am
Edinburgh should want to keep Crosbie. But, I think Crosbie should want to leave. What's best for Crosbie - week in first pick somewhere or sitting on the bench waiting for injuries? You'd have to think being a starter. He's 25 now, Ritchie and Watson have a few more years at least. He should want to be week in starter and if that's somewhere else I think he'd have to consider that.

I think everyone presumed Ritchie, Mata or Watson would leave and Crosbie would come in. But, French clubs signing fewer international born players and English clubs drastically cutting the cap there weren't good offers. So Crosbie is still where he was.

On paper Crosbie is a bench player because we have a stacked back row, but in practice he's got 69 appearances for Edinburgh and he's predominantly a starter when he's in the matchday 23. Over the last few seasons he's appeared more often for Edinburgh than Hamish Watson.

Hmm interesting, what are the stats with and without the bubble year? Or international windows - not an issue now really but the old pro12/13/14/15/16 there were a lot of international window games.

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:58 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:35 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 am
Hmmm. Bit of a journeyman knacker. Been let go by every club he's signed for.

He's going to be third choice. Schoeman and Venter are both top drawer props.

Third/fourth choice is probably his level!!!!

To be honest, a journeyman pro as third choice will be a step up, Edinburgh were struggling a bit with loosehead depth at the tail end of the season with Venter being injured and had a Super 6 player on the bench.

I can see the argument for giving Crosbie a shot playing 8. He’s too good a player to leave out of squads, and he does seem to have most of the attributes you’d want in an 8?

Talking about props, I saw the other day that Mak Wilson has signed for the Doncaster Knights. He was very good for the U20s in 2019/20 and actually made a few appearances (including a start) for Quins last season. The Championship can be a real breeding ground for hard-nosed props, so fingers crossed he establishes himself there are then can step back up to the top level. He's still only 21 so lots of time to do so.

We actually have a few decent level youngish (U23) props coming through, but we really seem to struggle to turn promising young players into top level professionals. Contrary to what I would have guessed, the top prospects (i.e. those with actual professional caps) are predominantly tightheads (unless I've missed any).
Tightheads
Dan Gamble: 21, Edinburgh/London Scottish
Mak Wilson: 21, Doncaster Knights
Murphy Walker: 22, Glasgow
Euan McLaren 23, Glasgow

Looseheads
Cole Lamberton: 20, Edinburgh
Sam Grahamslaw: 23, Edinburgh

As always, why have both Lamberton and Grahamslaw at Edinburgh but none at Glasgow (although I suppose they have McBeth) and then Walker and McLaren both at Glasgow (although Edinburgh have Gamble).

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:03 pm Talking about props, I saw the other day that Mak Wilson has signed for the Doncaster Knights. He was very good for the U20s in 2019/20 and actually made a few appearances (including a start) for Quins last season. The Championship can be a real breeding ground for hard-nosed props, so fingers crossed he establishes himself there are then can step back up to the top level. He's still only 21 so lots of time to do so.

We actually have a few decent level youngish (U23) props coming through, but we really seem to struggle to turn promising young players into top level professionals. Contrary to what I would have guessed, the top prospects (i.e. those with actual professional caps) are predominantly tightheads (unless I've missed any).
Tightheads
Dan Gamble: 21, Edinburgh/London Scottish
Mak Wilson: 21, Doncaster Knights
Murphy Walker: 22, Glasgow
Euan McLaren 23, Glasgow

Looseheads
Cole Lamberton: 20, Edinburgh
Sam Grahamslaw: 23, Edinburgh

As always, why have both Lamberton and Grahamslaw at Edinburgh but none at Glasgow (although I suppose they have McBeth) and then Walker and McLaren both at Glasgow (although Edinburgh have Gamble).

McLaren isn't at Glasgow, he might still be training at Edinburgh.

Grahamslaw was released - signed for Jersey and I'm sure Lamberton will also be released as well as he has done nothing in the super6. The Edinburgh stage 3 LH is Michael Jones who seems to be injured for the last year.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:07 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:03 pm Talking about props, I saw the other day that Mak Wilson has signed for the Doncaster Knights. He was very good for the U20s in 2019/20 and actually made a few appearances (including a start) for Quins last season. The Championship can be a real breeding ground for hard-nosed props, so fingers crossed he establishes himself there are then can step back up to the top level. He's still only 21 so lots of time to do so.

We actually have a few decent level youngish (U23) props coming through, but we really seem to struggle to turn promising young players into top level professionals. Contrary to what I would have guessed, the top prospects (i.e. those with actual professional caps) are predominantly tightheads (unless I've missed any).
Tightheads
Dan Gamble: 21, Edinburgh/London Scottish
Mak Wilson: 21, Doncaster Knights
Murphy Walker: 22, Glasgow
Euan McLaren 23, Glasgow

Looseheads
Cole Lamberton: 20, Edinburgh
Sam Grahamslaw: 23, Edinburgh

As always, why have both Lamberton and Grahamslaw at Edinburgh but none at Glasgow (although I suppose they have McBeth) and then Walker and McLaren both at Glasgow (although Edinburgh have Gamble).

McLaren isn't at Glasgow, he might still be training at Edinburgh.

Grahamslaw was released - signed for Jersey and I'm sure Lamberton will also be released as well as he has done nothing in the super6. The Edinburgh stage 3 LH is Michael Jones who seems to be injured for the last year.

McLaren was playing Super6 for Heriots, I thought he was still aligned to Glasgow though (partnership[ contract or similar?).

I'd forgotten Grahamslaw had moved on. I suppose the same applies to him as Wilson, hopefully a couple of years really at the coalface in the Championship will harden him up.

Lamberton at 20 would be young to release. I think he'll stay another year at least. It's a tough gig to oust any of the Edinburgh loosies though.

Michael Jones is 19? Unliekly to see him for a year or two you would think.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:32 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:07 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:03 pm Talking about props, I saw the other day that Mak Wilson has signed for the Doncaster Knights. He was very good for the U20s in 2019/20 and actually made a few appearances (including a start) for Quins last season. The Championship can be a real breeding ground for hard-nosed props, so fingers crossed he establishes himself there are then can step back up to the top level. He's still only 21 so lots of time to do so.

We actually have a few decent level youngish (U23) props coming through, but we really seem to struggle to turn promising young players into top level professionals. Contrary to what I would have guessed, the top prospects (i.e. those with actual professional caps) are predominantly tightheads (unless I've missed any).
Tightheads
Dan Gamble: 21, Edinburgh/London Scottish
Mak Wilson: 21, Doncaster Knights
Murphy Walker: 22, Glasgow
Euan McLaren 23, Glasgow

Looseheads
Cole Lamberton: 20, Edinburgh
Sam Grahamslaw: 23, Edinburgh

As always, why have both Lamberton and Grahamslaw at Edinburgh but none at Glasgow (although I suppose they have McBeth) and then Walker and McLaren both at Glasgow (although Edinburgh have Gamble).

McLaren isn't at Glasgow, he might still be training at Edinburgh.

Grahamslaw was released - signed for Jersey and I'm sure Lamberton will also be released as well as he has done nothing in the super6. The Edinburgh stage 3 LH is Michael Jones who seems to be injured for the last year.

McLaren was playing Super6 for Heriots, I thought he was still aligned to Glasgow though (partnership[ contract or similar?).

I'd forgotten Grahamslaw had moved on. I suppose the same applies to him as Wilson, hopefully a couple of years really at the coalface in the Championship will harden him up.

Lamberton at 20 would be young to release. I think he'll stay another year at least. It's a tough gig to oust any of the Edinburgh loosies though.

Michael Jones is 19? Unliekly to see him for a year or two you would think.

McLaren was training with Glasgow a while but he's been with Edinburgh as they had some injuries. He was listed in their challenge cup squad. I don't think he's ever officially been a partnership player.

I think they will have to get rid of Lamberton, he was never playing much in the 20s and he's not played in the super6. He's either permacrocked or not at the standard. Jones is 19, so he has a year or so left. They'll have Scougall as their TH stage 3 this year you'd think with Gamble given another year maybe as a pro.

In any case it's worrying times at prop for the pro teams. Walker and McBeth the only two looking likely to come through.