NPR

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:49 am I’m afraid I’ve very little enthusiasm for the public voting directly on policies if only because it takes responsibility away from Parl’t.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:54 am Fundamentally, to change the voting system, you have to get past the 'but we're British, so the way we do it must be better than these Europeans bods' mentality. And you won't. So no one will vote for it.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:56 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:49 am I’m afraid I’ve very little enthusiasm for the public voting directly on policies if only because it takes responsibility away from Parl’t.

Not clear on what you mean here. Take that to its logical extent and we remove voting entirely.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:53 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:40 am I'm not sure I want the public voting on everything (Brexit will forever stand as an example of mass ignorance...), but MPs toeing the party line so as not to damage their chances of advancement is an issue. One that could be mitigated somewhat by PR and the existing parties splitting into smaller entities rather than trying to squeeze all their disparate beliefs under a couple of umbrellas.

Sadly we either accept democracy or we don't. Personally, I'm with Hitler on this one: "the masses are incapable of rational decisions" but in absentia of a honest, beneficial dictatorship, living with stupidity is our best option.

One modification I would like to see on the people electing part is mandatory voting. However, each election card has a box which says "I think all of the above are sh*t" and unless any seat candidate gets 51% (say), then that seat is run again. That way we might see some better representation and development of ideas in politics as well as more meaningful local representation.

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:49 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:40 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:09 am
Agreed but they are basically publicising their election manifestos which will filter down to those types who might then want to hold them to account?

Your bit in red is exactly what is wrong with first past the post and that is exasperated when we now have Yank style politics.

a) Some form of PR is needed. Who cares which? Any is better than this.
b) My preference? We live in a tech age. Elect whomever you like but any proposal that requires assent is put to the voters. We have an app and say yes or no. Decided by us and not a bunch of stooges who get a 5 year mandate to do whatever their party whips tell them.

Fully agree. First past the post is busted. I was disappointed with how little traction AV got when it was put to the public, but I suppose Labour were still newly enough out of power then that they thought FPTP was still a route that could work for them. Without the support of at least one of the two main parties it wasn't going to go down well with voters.

I'm not sure I want the public voting on everything (Brexit will forever stand as an example of mass ignorance...), but MPs toeing the party line so as not to damage their chances of advancement is an issue. One that could be mitigated somewhat by PR and the existing parties splitting into smaller entities rather than trying to squeeze all their disparate beliefs under a couple of umbrellas.

Thinking it through now, as it happened FPTP did bring about a coalition in 2010 so it seemed to be working at the time.
I’m afraid I’ve very little enthusiasm for the public voting directly on policies if only because it takes responsibility away from Parl’t.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:09 pm

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:49 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:40 am

Fully agree. First past the post is busted. I was disappointed with how little traction AV got when it was put to the public, but I suppose Labour were still newly enough out of power then that they thought FPTP was still a route that could work for them. Without the support of at least one of the two main parties it wasn't going to go down well with voters.

I'm not sure I want the public voting on everything (Brexit will forever stand as an example of mass ignorance...), but MPs toeing the party line so as not to damage their chances of advancement is an issue. One that could be mitigated somewhat by PR and the existing parties splitting into smaller entities rather than trying to squeeze all their disparate beliefs under a couple of umbrellas.

Thinking it through now, as it happened FPTP did bring about a coalition in 2010 so it seemed to be working at the time.
I’m afraid I’ve very little enthusiasm for the public voting directly on policies if only because it takes responsibility away from Parl’t.

I suppose it's something that comes up when you lose faith in parliament as a representative body. I'm torn because I don't trust a Tory government to pass legislation or enact initiatives that are in the public interest or for any MP to vote outside party lines. The whole point of a parliamentary system is that it's impossible to expect the average citizen to be suitably informed as to vote on as many issues as require it, hence we have a representative for them who, in theory, reads all the information and takes on board local opinion to cast a somewhat informed vote. However, the whip system has undermined purpose and practice.

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:02 pm I quite like the French presidential voting system - get 50% of the vote and you’re through. Nobody gets more than 50%, the top two have a run-off.

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:20 pm

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:02 pm I quite like the French presidential voting system - get 50% of the vote and you’re through. Nobody gets more than 50%, the top two have a run-off.

We can use it when we vote for the next monarch

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:26 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:20 pm

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:02 pm I quite like the French presidential voting system - get 50% of the vote and you’re through. Nobody gets more than 50%, the top two have a run-off.

We can use it when we vote for the next monarch

Charles or William? There won’t be a “None of the above” option.

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:36 pm

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:26 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:20 pm

We can use it when we vote for the next monarch

Charles or William? There won’t be a “None of the above” option.

Will Howling Laud Hope be on the ballot? he usually is

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:48 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:36 pm

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:26 pm
Charles or William? There won’t be a “None of the above” option.

Will Howling Laud Hope be on the ballot? he usually is

Had to Google. Screaming Lord Whatsisname’s death in 1999 had passed me by.

yermum wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:29 am Great a generation of morons getting news from a source controlled by the CCP

this is fine.

Instead of the twelve paragraphs of misdirection and waffle he could have said:

“I did not notify officials that I had met Alexander Lebedev, and I cannot recall exactly what was discussed.”

Instead, none of the information which the committee asked for directly is provided directly.

*

There is something strange and worrying here.

If the meeting in Italy was straightforward and above board, then the response published today would also have been straightforward and open.

But the response was not – and that presumably is because the meeting was not.

Curious stuff.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:44 pm BoJo's response to the Lebedev enquiry is basically, "can't remember much but nothing I did was wrong"

Long analysis here: https://davidallengreen.com/2022/07/as- ... v-meeting/

concluding

Instead of the twelve paragraphs of misdirection and waffle he could have said:

“I did not notify officials that I had met Alexander Lebedev, and I cannot recall exactly what was discussed.”

Instead, none of the information which the committee asked for directly is provided directly.

*

There is something strange and worrying here.

If the meeting in Italy was straightforward and above board, then the response published today would also have been straightforward and open.

But the response was not – and that presumably is because the meeting was not.

Curious stuff.

On the Saturday night, Johnson is understood to have got heavily drunk at the event, meaning that it was unlikely that much of substance was discussed between the newspaper owner and the then foreign secretary.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:11 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:49 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:38 am

From a purely personal perspective, I'd prefer Truss's economic approach which would force high interest rates to curb inflation over Slimy's attempts to kill small to medium sized businesses.

I was slightly confused - doesn’t take much - when she said would start repaying the debt in three years time. If she believes COVID is a once in a hundred year event (debatable) then why so soon? She made it sound as though her low taxes are going to be a temporary boost rather than a long-term plan.

Oh. I don't think she knows what she's talking about. The cost of servicing the debt is now about 10% of GDP and that can only get worse unless there is zero further borrowing and/or payments increase over the rate of interest. Her former chum Rishi has dug the UK into a hole that can only be climbed out off by p*ssing off large portions of the electorate or all of them.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:06 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:44 pm BoJo's response to the Lebedev enquiry is basically, "can't remember much but nothing I did was wrong"

Long analysis here: https://davidallengreen.com/2022/07/as- ... v-meeting/

concluding

Instead of the twelve paragraphs of misdirection and waffle he could have said:

“I did not notify officials that I had met Alexander Lebedev, and I cannot recall exactly what was discussed.”

Instead, none of the information which the committee asked for directly is provided directly.

*

There is something strange and worrying here.

If the meeting in Italy was straightforward and above board, then the response published today would also have been straightforward and open.

But the response was not – and that presumably is because the meeting was not.

Curious stuff.

He was p;issed and out of it so could have said anything!!!!

On the Saturday night, Johnson is understood to have got heavily drunk at the event, meaning that it was unlikely that much of substance was discussed between the newspaper owner and the then foreign secretary.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:04 pm

Or he could have been doped, & then questioned extensively, & then gotten drunk while under the influence of the drugs, after he'd spilled his guts.

We'll never know, because the arrogant gimp, quite deliberately, went off without his minders, to meet someone attached with a hostile powers intelligence services !

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:53 pm Hopefully the people affected by what happened at the sun debate are safe.

Notable how there was not a question on tax but questions on how long does it take to get a GP appointment and price of food.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:04 pm

Or he could have been doped, & then questioned extensively, & then gotten drunk while under the influence of the drugs, after he'd spilled his guts.

We'll never know, because the arrogant gimp, quite deliberately, went off without his minders, to meet someone attached with a hostile powers intelligence services !

But, but, but look at everything he's done since then for Ukraine which show's he just such a jolly good egg! It doesn't even occur to the slimy git that he could have been compromised in such a scenario as above. "He [Lebedev] has been vocal in his criticism of the Putin regime", oh that's all right then, of course that guarantees he's not a Kremlin asset...

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:23 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:11 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:49 am
I was slightly confused - doesn’t take much - when she said would start repaying the debt in three years time. If she believes COVID is a once in a hundred year event (debatable) then why so soon? She made it sound as though her low taxes are going to be a temporary boost rather than a long-term plan.

Oh. I don't think she knows what she's talking about. The cost of servicing the debt is now about 10% of GDP and that can only get worse unless there is zero further borrowing and/or payments increase over the rate of interest. Her former chum Rishi has dug the UK into a hole that can only be climbed out off by p*ssing off large portions of the electorate or all of them.

The cost of servicing which debt is now 10% of GDP? Is the whole economy debt? Just it followed on from comments about Truss cutting debt and that would suggest public debt.

Yes debt servicing costs will have rather shot up, but public service borrowing service costs were down around 1% not so long ago (which is an odd feature in itself of the debt that the cost of servicing it was falling even as the total debt was shooting up since the start of the century) and again yes it will have increased, but to suggest to 10% sounds like someone put Diane Abbott in charge of analysing the data. I'd believe 3-4% right off the bat, depends in part how many of what types of gilt are actually in issue, I'm just struggling to consider it's risen to 10% and nobody is really commenting on that, that doesn't sound right

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:16 am Jesus H Christ, this should really be fake news but apparently not...

“But I am afraid it is the personal stuff, the lack of integrity, the lack of trust. Frankly, we don’t want to expose Boris Johnson on the international stage for more ridicule. He is a national embarrassment.”

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:11 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:16 am Jesus H Christ, this should really be fake news but apparently not...

So, serial Tory MP arsholes Drax and Francois are supporting the idea!!!
I'll go with Lord Dannatt

“But I am afraid it is the personal stuff, the lack of integrity, the lack of trust. Frankly, we don’t want to expose Boris Johnson on the international stage for more ridicule. He is a national embarrassment.”

Behind the paywall
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2 ... 58867268

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am Delusional !

The Bumblecunt has made the UK a laughing stock, & he personally is untrusted by every other Leader in the EU, & many others across the globe.

If the UK nominate him for any International role, they'll just ensure that the UK candidate gets rejected, & some other Country will secure the role.

All he can do now is write more shite books, or some articles dashed together hours before the deadline for the Torygraph

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:58 am If he wants an international role in all seriousness, it has to be directly related to Ukraine.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:09 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:58 am If he wants an international role in all seriousness, it has to be directly related to Ukraine.

Make him a Special Envoy to Ukraine, for all his many faults he is popular there and it's a relatively harmless post for us (provided he doesn't get pissed in the wrong company)

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:57 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am Delusional !

The Bumblecunt has made the UK a laughing stock, & he personally is untrusted by every other Leader in the EU, & many others across the globe.

If the UK nominate him for any International role, they'll just ensure that the UK candidate gets rejected, & some other Country will secure the role.

All he can do now is write more shite books, or some articles dashed together hours before the deadline for the Torygraph

I could see him getting a role within net zero/climate change. Think he'd do well in that type of role as he'd make the hopeful case well.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:16 am Jesus H Christ, this should really be fake news but apparently not...

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am Delusional !

The Bumblecunt has made the UK a laughing stock, & he personally is untrusted by every other Leader in the EU, & many others across the globe.

If the UK nominate him for any International role, they'll just ensure that the UK candidate gets rejected, & some other Country will secure the role.

All he can do now is write more shite books, or some articles dashed together hours before the deadline for the Torygraph

petej wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:18 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:57 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am Delusional !

The Bumblecunt has made the UK a laughing stock, & he personally is untrusted by every other Leader in the EU, & many others across the globe.

If the UK nominate him for any International role, they'll just ensure that the UK candidate gets rejected, & some other Country will secure the role.

All he can do now is write more shite books, or some articles dashed together hours before the deadline for the Torygraph

I could see him getting a role within net zero/climate change. Think he'd do well in that type of role as he'd make the hopeful case well.

He is a very good salesman. I would agree he would do well in that role. The people who don't like him don't need to be convinced and the people who do like him need to be convinced.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:16 am Jesus H Christ, this should really be fake news but apparently not...

Rory Stewart revealed he was invited to Lebedev’s infamous Italian party where there would be ‘girls’ – and told ‘Boris Johnson is coming’


Former politician Rory Stewart has revealed he was invited to Russian businessman Lebedev’s infamous Italian party where there would be ‘girls’ – and told ‘Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary is coming’.

Stewart, 49, then Minister of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, said the incident was ”absolutely bizarre”.

Evgeny Lebedev, 41, who became Baron Lebedev in 2020, is the son of Alexander Lebedev – a billionaire former foreign intelligence operative in the Russian KGB.

Discussing the controversy surrounding Lebedev’s appointment to the House of Lords, Stewart recounted an incident in 2018 when he had been invited to a party by Lebedev’s staff.

He recounted the invite on Alastair Campbell’s ‘The Rest Is Politics’ podcast.

Stewart said: “The Lebedev thing is absolutely bizarre.

“I remember just after I was appointed as Minister of State to the Foreign Office – deputy to Boris Johnson.

“Somebody came up to me at party conference and said ‘would you like to spend the weekend with Lebedev?’

“Lovely mansion I think on Lake Como, there were going to be girls, it’s gonna be great, you’ll be flown over.

”I believe the girl at the moment was a model.

“I said you’ve gotta be kidding me, I’ve just become the foreign minister. There’s no way I can possibly go.

“The guy’s father is a KGB agent, I’ve never met the man in his life. I don’t want to be flown off to some villa.

“At which point the person said ‘oh no no don’t worry – Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary is coming’.

“So I’ve been puzzled and bemused by this whole thing for years now.”

The 2018 party in question later led to reports that while Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson had ‘abandoned’ his 24/7 security detail assigned to him.

Johnson allegedly flew to the party and returned looking ‘dishevelled’ without his protection detail, raising questions about the security of the event.

Stewart added: “I didn’t go, but I think it’s the one which Jemima Goldsmith described, where one of the guests takes her top off at the table.

“The idea that the Foreign Secretary would think that this was a kind of respectable thing to do at the weekend is just staggering”.

Referencing the 1961 Profumo affair where a Conservative Minister was revealed to be conducting an affair with a woman also sleeping with a Russian KGB operative, Stewart implied he had been invited to meet Lebedev again in 2020.

He explained: “Remember the Profumo affair, the guy lost his job for much less than that.

“I began to realise the pressures that push people towards this when I was running for London Mayoralty, because Lebadev of course owned the Evening Standard.

“He invited me to come and meet him, in the end the meeting didn’t take place – but not through my fault, he cancelled the meeting.

“I still feel there but for the grace of God go I, because you can absolutely understand how people think if they are running for office that it would be very useful to get the owner of the Evening Standard on side.”

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:48 pm BoJo claimed the meeting with Lebedev's father was "neither formal nor arranged". He didn't know that by going to the son's party that the father might be there?

Rory Stewart chimes in:

Rory Stewart revealed he was invited to Lebedev’s infamous Italian party where there would be ‘girls’ – and told ‘Boris Johnson is coming’


Former politician Rory Stewart has revealed he was invited to Russian businessman Lebedev’s infamous Italian party where there would be ‘girls’ – and told ‘Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary is coming’.

Stewart, 49, then Minister of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, said the incident was ”absolutely bizarre”.

Evgeny Lebedev, 41, who became Baron Lebedev in 2020, is the son of Alexander Lebedev – a billionaire former foreign intelligence operative in the Russian KGB.

Discussing the controversy surrounding Lebedev’s appointment to the House of Lords, Stewart recounted an incident in 2018 when he had been invited to a party by Lebedev’s staff.

He recounted the invite on Alastair Campbell’s ‘The Rest Is Politics’ podcast.

Stewart said: “The Lebedev thing is absolutely bizarre.

“I remember just after I was appointed as Minister of State to the Foreign Office – deputy to Boris Johnson.

“Somebody came up to me at party conference and said ‘would you like to spend the weekend with Lebedev?’

“Lovely mansion I think on Lake Como, there were going to be girls, it’s gonna be great, you’ll be flown over.

”I believe the girl at the moment was a model.

“I said you’ve gotta be kidding me, I’ve just become the foreign minister. There’s no way I can possibly go.

“The guy’s father is a KGB agent, I’ve never met the man in his life. I don’t want to be flown off to some villa.

“At which point the person said ‘oh no no don’t worry – Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary is coming’.

“So I’ve been puzzled and bemused by this whole thing for years now.”

The 2018 party in question later led to reports that while Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson had ‘abandoned’ his 24/7 security detail assigned to him.

Johnson allegedly flew to the party and returned looking ‘dishevelled’ without his protection detail, raising questions about the security of the event.

Stewart added: “I didn’t go, but I think it’s the one which Jemima Goldsmith described, where one of the guests takes her top off at the table.

“The idea that the Foreign Secretary would think that this was a kind of respectable thing to do at the weekend is just staggering”.

Referencing the 1961 Profumo affair where a Conservative Minister was revealed to be conducting an affair with a woman also sleeping with a Russian KGB operative, Stewart implied he had been invited to meet Lebedev again in 2020.

He explained: “Remember the Profumo affair, the guy lost his job for much less than that.

“I began to realise the pressures that push people towards this when I was running for London Mayoralty, because Lebadev of course owned the Evening Standard.

“He invited me to come and meet him, in the end the meeting didn’t take place – but not through my fault, he cancelled the meeting.

“I still feel there but for the grace of God go I, because you can absolutely understand how people think if they are running for office that it would be very useful to get the owner of the Evening Standard on side.”

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/polit ... ng-316360/

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:23 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:11 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:49 am
I was slightly confused - doesn’t take much - when she said would start repaying the debt in three years time. If she believes COVID is a once in a hundred year event (debatable) then why so soon? She made it sound as though her low taxes are going to be a temporary boost rather than a long-term plan.

Oh. I don't think she knows what she's talking about. The cost of servicing the debt is now about 10% of GDP and that can only get worse unless there is zero further borrowing and/or payments increase over the rate of interest. Her former chum Rishi has dug the UK into a hole that can only be climbed out off by p*ssing off large portions of the electorate or all of them.

The cost of servicing which debt is now 10% of GDP? Is the whole economy debt? Just it followed on from comments about Truss cutting debt and that would suggest public debt.

Yes debt servicing costs will have rather shot up, but public service borrowing service costs were down around 1% not so long ago (which is an odd feature in itself of the debt that the cost of servicing it was falling even as the total debt was shooting up since the start of the century) and again yes it will have increased, but to suggest to 10% sounds like someone put Diane Abbott in charge of analysing the data. I'd believe 3-4% right off the bat, depends in part how many of what types of gilt are actually in issue, I'm just struggling to consider it's risen to 10% and nobody is really commenting on that, that doesn't sound right