The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Tichtheid]

Which part do you not agree with ?

For the most part the idea that Kinghorn operates in a vacuum with no external influences and that any Scottish breakdown in attack or defence is entirely his fault.

Of Course he doesn't - mostly , and that's not what I'm saying - but in some instances he does - He is a fine Rugby player - but in my opinion he is not an International 10 - he may be in the future - but not now .he s forcing things that are not coming naturally

In the instances I picked out on 25,27 and 56 minutes , these were purely Kinghorn errors ( as was kibckig the ball out on the full ) , which allowed Argentina to clear their lines

You have a different view of Kinghorn to me , But I think he did have a poor game on Saturday

If you can show me where he had a real influence on this game , do so - its' easy to say pish and ridiculous - if I have missed something ( won't be the first or last time ) then show me where

On influence on the game, like I said before his restarts had Argentina playing from their own 5m line, that happened every time he took a restart kick.

He made a try saving tackle

One could make a post counting the positives and good things he does and time stamp them, but no, you chose to do the opposite.

and you did so ignoring anything that might influence the actions Kinghorn took.

My defence of him is not as an Edinburgh player it's as a young rugby player who gets idiotic shite thrown at him online

[Dogbert]

For the most part the idea that Kinghorn operates in a vacuum with no external influences and that any Scottish breakdown in attack or defence is entirely his fault.

Of Course he doesn't - mostly , and that's not what I'm saying - but in some instances he does - He is a fine Rugby player - but in my opinion he is not an International 10 - he may be in the future - but not now .he s forcing things that are not coming naturally

In the instances I picked out on 25,27 and 56 minutes , these were purely Kinghorn errors ( as was kickkig the ball out on the full ) , which allowed Argentina to clear their lines

You have a different view of Kinghorn to me , But I think he did have a poor game on Saturday

If you can show me where he had a real influence on this game , do so - its' easy to say pish and ridiculous - if I have missed something ( won't be the first or last time ) then show me where

On influence on the game, like I said before his restarts had Argentina playing from their own 5m line, that happened every time he took a restart kick.

He made a try saving tackle

One could make a post counting the positives and good things he does and time stamp them, but no, you chose to do the opposite.

I did point out he made a try saving tackle ....

And you absolutely right about the restarts , they were great

But I did try to find other positives , but I really couldn't - thats' my issue - - I want him to succeed , but restarts and a tackle do not make an International 10

[Tichtheid]

Of Course he doesn't - mostly , and that's not what I'm saying - but in some instances he does - He is a fine Rugby player - but in my opinion he is not an International 10 - he may be in the future - but not now .he s forcing things that are not coming naturally

In the instances I picked out on 25,27 and 56 minutes , these were purely Kinghorn errors ( as was kickkig the ball out on the full ) , which allowed Argentina to clear their lines

You have a different view of Kinghorn to me , But I think he did have a poor game on Saturday

If you can show me where he had a real influence on this game , do so - its' easy to say pish and ridiculous - if I have missed something ( won't be the first or last time ) then show me where

On influence on the game, like I said before his restarts had Argentina playing from their own 5m line, that happened every time he took a restart kick.

He made a try saving tackle

One could make a post counting the positives and good things he does and time stamp them, but no, you chose to do the opposite.

I did point out he made a try saving tackle ....

And you absolutely right about the restarts , they were great

But I did try to find other positives , but I really couldn't - thats' my issue - - I want him to succeed , but restarts and a tackle do not make an International 10

I would wager if that if you reduced any Finn-inspired Scotland wins you would get a similar number of +ves and -ves, but no one breaks that down, the only person who really seems to understand Kinghorn is Finn Russell.

Oh and Gregor Townsend

[Dogbert]

On influence on the game, like I said before his restarts had Argentina playing from their own 5m line, that happened every time he took a restart kick.

He made a try saving tackle

One could make a post counting the positives and good things he does and time stamp them, but no, you chose to do the opposite.

I did point out he made a try saving tackle ....

And you absolutely right about the restarts , they were great

But I did try to find other positives , but I really couldn't - thats' my issue - - I want him to succeed , but restarts and a tackle do not make an International 10

I would wager if that if you reduced any Finn-inspired Scotland wins you would get a similar number of +ves and -ves, but no one breaks that down, the only person who really seems to understand Kinghorn is Finn Russell.

Oh and Gregor Townsend

I thinks its' reasonable if you have a point of view , then it's worth while looking at the evidence , rather than saying something or someone is shite , and i suspect that an International coach and staff will look closely at positives & negatives for each and every player

I remember the 2016 Italy match - the one where Pete Horne was castigated for us losing - Pete actually had a pretty decent game , missed one touch right at the end , which lead to the rolling maul being illegally stopped and a Penalty try being awarded - It wasn't the forwards who were blamed for that loss , and that loss tainted Pete's International career
I ty to be fair , and I don't want Kinghorn to end up like Pete Horne - I don't think playing Kinghorn at 10 is doing him any favours

[Blackmac]

Always interesting to re-watch a Game without the emotion

The score flattered Scotland a bit , but not the result
Argentina could have kicked a number of Penalties to keep the scoreboard ticking over , they chose not to
Both starting Props had fine games , both in the set piece & in the loose , Hard Yards made , Tackles completed , No stupid penalties - see Zander - it can be done
Both Fagersons had probably their best games in a Scotland Shirt - Dempsey's arrival at Glasgow seems to have pushed M.Fagersons game on a level.

The Backrow worked

Gregor got the Team and the tactics right, He gets pelters when it doesn't go well , He should be praised when it goes right .

What do we do with Kinghorn though

He's a fine Rugby Player and I really hoped that this tour would allow him to see if he can step up to be an International 10 (surely that's what these tests are for ) , and he should be given the last test ..... but on the current showing he's just simply not where he needs to be playing

13 minutes out on the full
20 minutes Pop pass as Johnson hit milliseconds later the Argentine defender
25 Pass from Hutchinson to Kinghorn - who passed it to thin air , missing Duhan completely , attack breaks down
27 minutes - Gets Isolated on the deck - gives away a Penalty , Attack breaks down
37 Minutes - misses (fairly simple) conversion
45 another Pop pass to Johnson , who again gets hit milliseconds later by the Argentine defender
50 minutes to Full back
56 - Gets caught on a Run from Deep - another Penalty awarded against
67 minutes - great defensive tackle on 5 m line

That's pretty much it , no real attacking threat , and didn't have a hand in any of the tries , a lot the time Scotland used either Hutchinson , or Johnson as first receivers.
In an emergency , can he do a job at 10 - Of course , but I would put him into the Pete Horne category

I think you are being incredibly hard on him here. In both the passes to Johnson you can see Johnson screaming for the ball so I would hope he is seeing a gap. I can't see it on the first but there is definitely one in the second. Johnson drops a perfect pass, which if he had taken would likely have led to a decent break.

The pass to Duhan is clearly a pre planned move and my impression is Duhan is not where he should be. Yeah I appreciate no look passes are not ideal but it was actually a perfect pass if the player had been coming around his shoulder.

Getting isolated on the deck is ridiculous. It's a lose ball, dropped by Duhan that he goes down to recover and immediately gets enveloped by the Argentinian back row. In no way his fault.

The penalty was also harsh, he made some ground, broke through two tacklers, fell, rolled and legally got back to his feet with Watson on his shoulder about to gather posssesion. The penalty was completely bollocks and was highlighted by the commentators.

If you did such a forensic analysis of Finns mistakes in games over the last couple of years the list would be twice as long. I don't think Kinghorn is the answer but at the moment I don't think he is the problem either and he is actually a safer pair of hands than a disinterested Finn.

[I like neeps]

On influence on the game, like I said before his restarts had Argentina playing from their own 5m line, that happened every time he took a restart kick.

He made a try saving tackle

One could make a post counting the positives and good things he does and time stamp them, but no, you chose to do the opposite.

I did point out he made a try saving tackle ....

And you absolutely right about the restarts , they were great

But I did try to find other positives , but I really couldn't - thats' my issue - - I want him to succeed , but restarts and a tackle do not make an International 10

I would wager if that if you reduced any Finn-inspired Scotland wins you would get a similar number of +ves and -ves, but no one breaks that down, the only person who really seems to understand Kinghorn is Finn Russell.

Oh and Gregor Townsend

Finn Russell understands Blair Kinghorn? Where are you getting this from? I mean he maybe does but seems a stretch. Gregor Townsend and Mike Blair certainly do. But can't see where Russell is coming from here.

[KingBlairhorn]

I wrote on the Weedge forum about my preference for a third lineout jumper, and for me no one is keeping Jamie Ritchie out of the team, as harsh as it is that means Darge and Watson going head to head to start at 7.

Yeah, sorry. Meant back row options for the final test. I think Watson it's just still ahead of Darge, especially if he carries on like this.

It's great that we have so many genuine options without dropping the standards. Haining, Bradbury, Crosbie, Christie, Bayliss are all excellent choices to have in blending a backrow.
Connor Boyle will be knocking on the door in the not too distant future too

The great thing about this depth is that Toonie is very much a horses for courses selector. We all joke about the tombolla but I suppose this is the end result. I do hope we can develop a close to settled first 15 over the next year though so that the combinations can develop more. If that is too far off piste for Toonie, at least specific selections for certain types of games would be an improvement.

Having so many options does allow us to rotate through the World Cup, especially for such attritional positions as flank and 8, without worrying too much about a loss of quality.

[westport]

Personally i thought BK had a Okay game. He didn't set the grass on fire attacking and he did make mistakes. Of course he did, show me a 10 that doesn't make mistakes. He is "new" to the 10 position and I am quite happy with his progress this season. He will make mistakes and blunders, as do the vast majority of players at some point, but it is not the end of the world and the experience will benefit him and the team.

I would like to see more of his attacking game at 10 from the good ones for Edinburgh brought into the National team because when he does get it right it is excellent.

[Wylie Coyote]

One point I noticed that doesn't seem to be mentioned is the difference having a 13 with some attacking vision makes to the team. Bennett scored two tries that just would not have been scored had Harris have been there. Harris appears to be untouchable but he kills the Scottish attack (especially with Johnson at 12). We can carry him as attacking vacuum if there is 2nd receiver at 12 to throw the miss passes but we simply can't have both Johnson and Harris together in the centres in the RWC next year.

[Tichtheid]

I did point out he made a try saving tackle ....

And you absolutely right about the restarts , they were great

But I did try to find other positives , but I really couldn't - thats' my issue - - I want him to succeed , but restarts and a tackle do not make an International 10

I would wager if that if you reduced any Finn-inspired Scotland wins you would get a similar number of +ves and -ves, but no one breaks that down, the only person who really seems to understand Kinghorn is Finn Russell.

Oh and Gregor Townsend

Finn Russell understands Blair Kinghorn? Where are you getting this from? I mean he maybe does but seems a stretch. Gregor Townsend and Mike Blair certainly do. But can't see where Russell is coming from here.

It was from the body language between the two of them after Kinghorn had made a mistake with a pass against Ireland(?)
Others in that situation might have been thinking “I knew I should have been on from the start” but Finn was more “Don’t worry about it”

If anyone is going to “get” Kinghorn it’s going to be Finn Russell

[I like neeps]

I would wager if that if you reduced any Finn-inspired Scotland wins you would get a similar number of +ves and -ves, but no one breaks that down, the only person who really seems to understand Kinghorn is Finn Russell.

Oh and Gregor Townsend

Finn Russell understands Blair Kinghorn? Where are you getting this from? I mean he maybe does but seems a stretch. Gregor Townsend and Mike Blair certainly do. But can't see where Russell is coming from here.

It was from the body language between the two of them after Kinghorn had made a mistake with a pass against Ireland(?)
Others in that situation might have been thinking “I knew I should have been on from the start” but Finn was more “Don’t worry about it”

If anyone is going to “get” Kinghorn it’s going to be Finn Russell

Finn does that with everyone though. I doubt he's ever expressed anything but "don't worry about it" body language to any player. You genuinely never see him remotely frustrated. It's part of the reason I think so many think he doesn't care enough.

They are similar players, I'm sure there's some affinity there but I'm sure Finn has affinity with any player who just wants to have fun. See his friendship with Zebo etc.

[Tichtheid]

Aye, so he probably understands Kinghorn, which was the point being questioned

[KingBlairhorn]

I would like to see more of his attacking game at 10 from the good ones for Edinburgh brought into the National team because when he does get it right it is excellent.

Part of me wonders if what Toonie sees in Kinghorn is a kind of Beauden Barrett light. A devastating open field runner who adds an additional dimension to an attack that teams just don't have to deal with very often, therefore find it hard to structure a defence around?

[Biffer]

The sky has fallen

Watson missed a tackle on Saturday. First time in 25 internationals.

[charltom]

First miss for years and he gets MOTM!

[Slick]

I would like to see more of his attacking game at 10 from the good ones for Edinburgh brought into the National team because when he does get it right it is excellent.

Part of me wonders if what Toonie sees in Kinghorn is a kind of Beauden Barrett light. A devastating open field runner who adds an additional dimension to an attack that teams just don't have to deal with very often, therefore find it hard to structure a defence around?

Oh, this is quite an interesting idea.

My issue with Kinghorn isn’t that he makes mistakes and, to be totally frank, I find most of the analysis above misses the main points completely. He doesn’t have the instinct for 10 at the top level, his positioning is wrong, he doesn’t have the vision to bring players into the game and his defence at 10 is currently woeful. Some of this can be learnt, most can’t.

The idea of him as a disruptor though perhaps has some merit. As I’ve said endlessly, he obviously has all the skills in the world but that is not enough to control a game at the top level and that Edinburgh and Scotland have missed this in the last few games is glaringly obvious to me. Maybe that’s why Toony is looking at Hutch (or Hogg obvs) coming in at first receiver more often, to take that game management pressure off him and hopefully, with time, allow him to step in at crucial moments and create mayhem.

As I say, a really interesting idea that perhaps could work, although I’d still say it seems like an unnecessary complication at the moment.

[Slick]

The sky has fallen

Watson missed a tackle on Saturday. First time in 25 internationals.

Just a stupid, stupid stat. Incredible

[robmatic]

I would like to see more of his attacking game at 10 from the good ones for Edinburgh brought into the National team because when he does get it right it is excellent.

Part of me wonders if what Toonie sees in Kinghorn is a kind of Beauden Barrett light. A devastating open field runner who adds an additional dimension to an attack that teams just don't have to deal with very often, therefore find it hard to structure a defence around?

Oh, this is quite an interesting idea.

My issue with Kinghorn isn’t that he makes mistakes and, to be totally frank, I find most of the analysis above misses the main points completely. He doesn’t have the instinct for 10 at the top level, his positioning is wrong, he doesn’t have the vision to bring players into the game and his defence at 10 is currently woeful. Some of this can be learnt, most can’t.

The idea of him as a disruptor though perhaps has some merit. As I’ve said endlessly, he obviously has all the skills in the world but that is not enough to control a game at the top level and that Edinburgh and Scotland have missed this in the last few games is glaringly obvious to me. Maybe that’s why Toony is looking at Hutch (or Hogg obvs) coming in at first receiver more often, to take that game management pressure off him and hopefully, with time, allow him to step in at crucial moments and create mayhem.

As I say, a really interesting idea that perhaps could work, although I’d still say it seems like an unnecessary complication at the moment.

Kinghorn at 10 seems to make more sense at Edinburgh when you have someone like Lang at 12 who can distribute and with Boffelli/Jaco as really solid kicking options.

[I like neeps]

Edinburgh fans will correct me if I am wrong but I thought Edinburgh looked better with Dean at 12 this year. I don't think Lang is an excellent distributor either but he does impress me with how hard he plays the game.

[robmatic]

Edinburgh fans will correct me if I am wrong but I thought Edinburgh looked better with Dean at 12 this year. I don't think Lang is an excellent distributor either but he does impress me with how hard he plays the game.

Possibly, but we didn't really see Dean until right at the end of the season. A lot of the good Edinburgh attacking play last season involved a disguised pass out of the back by the 12, which is Lang's thing.

Lang does play hard but he also seems to break pretty regularly after about 40 minutes of a game.

[Yr Alban]

U20s went down 41-24 away to Ireland. Of course this extends the losing streak, but is it defeatist to say that I’m actually relieved and pleased that the margin wasn’t 60 plus?

[KingBlairhorn]

Edinburgh fans will correct me if I am wrong but I thought Edinburgh looked better with Dean at 12 this year. I don't think Lang is an excellent distributor either but he does impress me with how hard he plays the game.

a disguised pass out of the back by the 12, which is Lang's thing.

Those bullet disguised no look passes out the back are

[Slick]

Part of me wonders if what Toonie sees in Kinghorn is a kind of Beauden Barrett light. A devastating open field runner who adds an additional dimension to an attack that teams just don't have to deal with very often, therefore find it hard to structure a defence around?

Oh, this is quite an interesting idea.

My issue with Kinghorn isn’t that he makes mistakes and, to be totally frank, I find most of the analysis above misses the main points completely. He doesn’t have the instinct for 10 at the top level, his positioning is wrong, he doesn’t have the vision to bring players into the game and his defence at 10 is currently woeful. Some of this can be learnt, most can’t.

The idea of him as a disruptor though perhaps has some merit. As I’ve said endlessly, he obviously has all the skills in the world but that is not enough to control a game at the top level and that Edinburgh and Scotland have missed this in the last few games is glaringly obvious to me. Maybe that’s why Toony is looking at Hutch (or Hogg obvs) coming in at first receiver more often, to take that game management pressure off him and hopefully, with time, allow him to step in at crucial moments and create mayhem.

As I say, a really interesting idea that perhaps could work, although I’d still say it seems like an unnecessary complication at the moment.

Kinghorn at 10 seems to make more sense at Edinburgh when you have someone like Lang at 12 who can distribute and with Boffelli/Jaco as really solid kicking options.

I think that’s where this will probably end up for the next couple of seasons. Kinghorn playing 10 at Edinburgh and making things exciting, putting bums on seats (mine as well) but never really challenging at the pointy end of the season until they get a real 10 (this is what everyone has been saying for a while now), and not troubling Scotland selectors

[Slick]

Jamie Dobie off to Bay of Plenty for a few months, good for him

[westport]

The sky has fallen

Watson missed a tackle on Saturday. First time in 25 internationals.

That means he will be dropped for the next game

[KingBlairhorn]

Came to read some vitriol RE SRU cronyism, cheapness and lack of imagination over the Dalziel to Glasgow rumour. Sorely disappointed.

[Big D]

Came to read some vitriol RE SRU cronyism, cheapness and lack of imagination over the Dalziel to Glasgow rumour. Sorely disappointed.

Got a spare min on holiday and saw this. It isn't a surprise. As I was fairly told on here the assistant coaches aren't getting binned. So that leaves the SRU needing to to find a forward orientated coach as seen by the string of uninspiring candidates. At least Dalziel has been working his way through the pathway for coaches within the SRU.

I understand the reasons for keeping Murchie amd Dickinson around, but if keeping Carolan is preventing a more thorough search for a coach (not seen any attack/back coaches linked) then get rid and get the best coach in rather than best forwards orientated coach.

[C T]

No Tom English article this week? Funny that.

[Yr Alban]

No Tom English article this week? Funny that.

I did notice that. He has been known to write articles enthusing after a victory, but he does love to put the boot in, and his absence after a more than decent win is irritating to say the least.

[Tichtheid]

[Slick]

WTF

[Slick]

Really pleased for Smith

Is White injured?

Tuipoluto… best of luck Blair…

McLean worries me

[Tichtheid]

Hutchinson, Graham and Rowe were all injured, Graham's was a delayed concussion.

The pack will have to perform at the level they did in the second half of last week, Ashman can really make a statement on Saturday.

Mon Laddies

[Yr Alban]

All change for the final Test.

15. Smith
14. McLean
13. Bennett
12. Tuipilotu
11. DVDM
10. Kinghorn
9. Price
8. M Fagerson
7. Watson
6. Darge
5. Gray
4. Cummings
3. Z Fagerson
2. Ashman
1. Sutherland

Reps: Cherry, Schoeman, Sebastian, Young, Christie, Horne, Thompson, Johnson

Very puzzled with this. It looks like the team you’d pick for a dead rubber match when you’re leading 2-0, not a series decider. We knew Hutch was a doubt, so that may explain Smith at 15. But McLean for Graham and Ashman for Cherry after last week seems odd. As does Price, with White left out entirely when by all accounts he was a significant upgrade last week.

[Tichtheid]

McLean worries me

Pourquoi?

[Slick]

McLean worries me

Pourquoi?

His defence at this level was badly exposed last year

[Slick]

Hutchinson, Graham and Rowe were all injured, Graham's was a delayed concussion.

The pack will have to perform at the level they did in the second half of last week, Ashman can really make a statement on Saturday.

Mon Laddies

Didn’t realise Graham was out. Fantastic opportunity for Ashman

[Tichtheid]

McLean worries me

Pourquoi?

His defence at this level was badly exposed last year

Against South Africa?

This is not that level, South Africa's back division is way under-rated, the 21 year old made a mistake on his second cap for the first try down his wing when he was facing a 2 on 1, from out here it looks like he should have drifted and let the cover take Kolisi. The second one saw Johnson bite too early and de Allende did him for pace,

[I like neeps]

Pourquoi?

His defence at this level was badly exposed last year

Against South Africa?

This is not that level, South Africa's back division is way under-rated, the 21 year old made a mistake on his second cap for the first try down his wing when he was facing a 2 on 1, from out here it looks like he should have drifted and let the cover take Kolisi. The second one saw Johnson bite too early and de Allende did him for pace,

McLean worries me because he's been pretty crap for Glasgow all season when he wasn't injured. I thought him and Forbes would be great players after the rainbow cup and both took a step back.

I appreciate with Hutchinson and Rowe injured there's not many options.

[Tichtheid]

The second one saw Johnson bite too early and de Allende did him for pace,

A full "Mea Culpa" on this, it was Matt Scott and it ended his international career.