Quins bite back in Brown saga

[Torquemada 1420]

From Torygraph

Harlequins chief executive Laurie Dalrymple has revealed that departing club stalwart Mike Brown turned down three contract offers that would have seen him remain at the Twickenham Stoop beyond the end of this season.

Brown, 35, announced in last weekend's Mail on Sunday that he did not wish to leave Harlequins but had signed for Newcastle Falcons from the start of the 2021-22 season. The England full-back was told that he was surplus to requirements in a four-minute meeting by Harlequins' former head of rugby, Paul Gustard.

While Brown did acknowledge that his longstanding club returned with a counter offer which was too late, Dalrymple said that "some balanced context" was required in an interview with the club's in-house communications team.

"There is ultimately going to be two perspectives on the discussion, and there's going to be quite a bit written in the media and on social media regarding the loyalty that exists within the club - and I want to rigorously defend that," the Harlequins CEO said.

"Regarding Mike, we began discussions with him on his contract in February 2020. Subsequently, in December, the club took the decision that we were not going to extend his contract, for multiple reasons: not least, trying to accommodate an ever-changing recruitment, retention landscape; players in our academy developing faster than we'd thought; then, linked to that, looking at how we transition the squad in seasons to come.

"Except, though, in the New Year, we did have a slight change of position on things, and we offered two further contracts to Mike. So, in total, over the last 12 months we have made three contract offers to Mike. He has chosen to turn all of those down."

Dalrymple said, too, that Harlequins' player-welfare officer had been in regular contact with Brown regarding his transition to life after rugby. Dalrymple added that he could not comment further on the situation due to the ongoing confidentiality between employer and employee.

"It's a bit difficult to comment much further in some ways because the conversations that are being had are between an individual and their employer," Dalrymple added. "I do firmly believe that much, if not all, of those conversations should firmly remain in private. However, Mike has been here for 17 years; he will be regarded among the supporter base and within the club as a legend - of that I'm certain.

"It saddens me that he feels we have let him down in some way. We hope that we're going to finish the season as strongly as we can and, when we've done that, we will obviously wish Mike and his family all the very best of luck as he moves to Newcastle."

[Kawazaki]

That reads very much to me like code for Brown tried to get too clever in the negotiations and Quins called his bluff.

[Ymx]

Is this JM bait?

[Sandstorm]

Sounds like Quins think he took too many blows to the head.

[JM2K6]

Not sure why this needs its own thread but heyho

Dalrymple doing a good job of glossing over the salient points but the fact remains that they were negotiating a new contract, then decided in December that oh actually they don't need him any more, he's too old and the club has better players now and more coming through, bye Mike - then changed their minds AGAIN once they realised they'd fucked up, but only after he'd agreed to join Falcons.

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

[ASMO]

Not sure why this needs its own thread but heyho

Dalrymple doing a good job of glossing over the salient points but the fact remains that they were negotiating a new contract, then decided in December that oh actually they don't need him any more, he's too old and the club has better players now and more coming through, bye Mike - then changed their minds AGAIN once they realised they'd fucked up, but only after he'd agreed to join Falcons.

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

I also heard that the offers were quite derisory.

[notfatcat]

We've only Brown's word that the offers were "low" - which is more opinion rather than fact. It would be no surprise to find that a player at the tail end of their career thinks they're worth more than a club thinks they're worth.

[Ymx]

We've only Brown's word that the offers were "low" - which is more opinion rather than fact. It would be no surprise to find that a player at the tail end of their career thinks they're worth more than a club thinks they're worth.

Assume going backwards is low to anyone, but likely still over market rates.

[notfatcat]

I don't know what that means.

[Torquemada 1420]

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

Whatever the nitty gritty, you don't think Brown was being economical in the truth in implying the first he knew was a 4 min meeting to say goodbye i.e. what about the 3 previous negotiations?

[Torquemada 1420]

I also heard that the offers were quite derisory.

You are only worth what the market values you at. Wake up call for rugby player egos: you get paid as pros and so you get treated as pros i.e. you are a commodity.

[ASMO]

I also heard that the offers were quite derisory.

You are only worth what the market values you at. Wake up call for rugby player egos: you get paid as pros and so you get treated as pros i.e. you are a commodity.

He is probably one of Quins best players this season

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

Whatever the nitty gritty, you don't think Brown was being economical in the truth in implying the first he knew was a 4 min meeting to say goodbye i.e. what about the 3 previous negotiations?

No, I don't.

At that point there hadn't been 3 previous negotiations. Quins said they were in negotiations - which I assume means there was an offer on the table that Brown had not accepted - which they then withdrew in the 4 minute meeting. The other 2 offers were the recent ones after Gustard left by which time Brown had likely committed to Newcastle. The rumours of Brown to Newcastle go back quite a way.

[Ymx]

I don't know what that means.

Being offered less than last time will always seem low to someone.

[Uncle fester]

He's learning the hard way that no player is bigger than the team.

[notfatcat]

I don't know what that means.

Being offered less than last time will always seem low to someone.

Ah right, yeah. I guess the reduction in wages in a player's twilight years may not necessarily be a smooth process, and I could see how the drop could conceivably be from say £250k to £100k or below.

[SaintK]

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

Whatever the nitty gritty, you don't think Brown was being economical in the truth in implying the first he knew was a 4 min meeting to say goodbye i.e. what about the 3 previous negotiations?

No, I don't.

At that point there hadn't been 3 previous negotiations. Quins said they were in negotiations - which I assume means there was an offer on the table that Brown had not accepted - which they then withdrew in the 4 minute meeting. The other 2 offers were the recent ones after Gustard left by which time Brown had likely committed to Newcastle. The rumours of Brown to Newcastle go back quite a way.

Sums it up nicely!

[JM2K6]

He's learning the hard way that no player is bigger than the team.

As evidenced by, erm, the two offers they made once they realised they fucked up badly and the slaughtering they're getting over this.

All Brown learned is that Quins suddenly didn't think he was worth keeping or negotiating with, or even discussing with him the possibility he might not stay at Quins before they told him adios. Before they changed their mind again, natch.

Torq, it really does help if you read the stuff first...

[Ymx]

Quins were meanies as evidenced by this

[Ymx]

All Brown learned is that Quins suddenly didn't think he was worth keeping or negotiating with

I wasn’t aware of that definition of “suddenly”

[JM2K6]

All Brown learned is that Quins suddenly didn't think he was worth keeping or negotiating with

I wasn’t aware of that definition of “suddenly”

?

[Openside]

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

Whatever the nitty gritty, you don't think Brown was being economical in the truth in implying the first he knew was a 4 min meeting to say goodbye i.e. what about the 3 previous negotiations?

Quite, it blows the whole I had a 4 minute conversation and I was out story out the window. He had already turned down 3 offers...

[notfatcat]

Two of those offers came later.

[Kawazaki]

Maybe in the infamous 4-minute meeting Quins didn't tell Brown that they didn't want him anymore explicitly but perhaps told him to consider other club's offers if he gets them as they couldn't guarantee him an offer.

As in my first reply, it appears to me that Brown was stringing the club along rather than the other way around.

[JM2K6]

Maybe in the infamous 4-minute meeting Quins didn't tell Brown that they didn't want him anymore explicitly but perhaps told him to consider other club's offers if he gets them as they couldn't guarantee him an offer.

As in my first reply, it appears to me that Brown was stringing the club along rather than the other way around.

That runs contrary to both accounts, so seems wildly unlikely.

[JM2K6]

Nothing in what Dalrymple says actually contradicts Brown's comments or addresses the main complaint about how Quins have treated him.

Whatever the nitty gritty, you don't think Brown was being economical in the truth in implying the first he knew was a 4 min meeting to say goodbye i.e. what about the 3 previous negotiations?

Quite, it blows the whole I had a 4 minute conversation and I was out story out the window. He had already turned down 3 offers...

Read the whole thread next time

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I'm mostly amused Brown didn't realise his time might be up when his contract expired. Though in fairness he wouldn't be the only player to make this mistake, they're not picked for their brains

[ASMO]

I'm mostly amused Brown didn't realise his time might be up when his contract expired. Though in fairness he wouldn't be the only player to make this mistake, they're not picked for their brains

I am pretty sure he would have a manager doing all that for him

[JM2K6]

I'm mostly amused Brown didn't realise his time might be up when his contract expired. Though in fairness he wouldn't be the only player to make this mistake, they're not picked for their brains

Yes, that's exactly what happened here.

Or alternatively he was in contract negotiations and was completely blindsided when the club reversed their position and decided they didn't want him.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And if you don't get an extension you still have an end date, talking about a possible extension is only talk. Also he's then signed for a chap famed for running down contracts trying to offer as little as possible, though Deano might have moved on with such thinking at Newcastle

[JM2K6]

And if you don't get an extension you still have an end date, talking about a possible extension is only talk. Also he's then signed for a chap famed for running down contracts trying to offer as little as possible, though Deano might have moved on with such thinking at Newcastle

Look I realise this is all very "inside baseball" and there's little reason for people outside Quins to be interested in this, but it is quite awkward having conversations with people who haven't even bothered to do the basic reading on what happened.

Quins had already made one offer and at no point had they talked about not keeping him on. A club legend rightly does not expect the club to suddenly turn round and go "actually, we've decided we don't want you any more" during negotiations where the club has already made it clear they want him and where there's never been any sign the club was thinking of moving on. It's silly to suggest that players don't understand that if they don't get an extension they're gone - everyone knows that, it's not actually what's being discussed here. Quins having a change of heart out of the blue and treating an incredibly important and popular player like shit is the story. The fact they then changed their minds again goes some way to showing that even they realised they fucked it up.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Who the fudge is doing background reading on the signing of a back who'll be 36 next season, why would someone?

And nothing as yet shows they've gotten things wrong, we've no idea how much he'll play from now, how Quins results will go, how Quins might benefit from gaining experience on other players. Also Quins look like they might finish top 4 this season, which is great, but we're not talking about anything especially important when finishing top 4 looks to about as good as it could get.

It't not a great way for a club career to end for someone who's become such a fixture at a club, but contracts end and careers end. It's just how it is. He could try to act with a little dignity, but then perhaps he wouldn't be who he is

[JM2K6]

Who the fudge is doing background reading on the signing of a back who'll be 36 next season, why would someone?

Ah, the good old "I want to have strident opinions on a topic I know next to nothing about". Good stuff.

And nothing as yet shows they've gotten things wrong, we've no idea how much he'll play from now, how Quins results will go, how Quins might benefit from gaining experience on other players. Also Quins look like they might finish top 4 this season, which is great, but we're not talking about anything especially important when finishing top 4 looks to about as good as it could get.

It't not a great way for a club career to end for someone who's become such a fixture at a club, but contracts end and careers end. It's just how it is. He could try to act with a little dignity, but then perhaps he wouldn't be who he is

They got it wrong in a) how they handled it which is realistically what this entire conversation is about, and b) their understanding of the strength of the squad options behind him. He is the only good fullback at the club, currently, with a couple of young players who might be able to make it there, a guy who's fucking terrible there, and a guy who's a much better wing than a fullback. Whether we finish top 4 or not or whether that's the ceiling or whatever is genuinely irrelevant.

b) is the one where we'll wait and see. a) is inarguable - they fucked up. Badly.

[Openside]

Whatever the nitty gritty, you don't think Brown was being economical in the truth in implying the first he knew was a 4 min meeting to say goodbye i.e. what about the 3 previous negotiations?

Quite, it blows the whole I had a 4 minute conversation and I was out story out the window. He had already turned down 3 offers...

Read the whole thread next time

I had, I had already read somewhere else (possibly erroneously) that he had turned down three and that the further two were in an attempt to keep him. They started talks in Feb and the decision to let him go was taken in December. I do not believe there was not a fair amount of toing and froing in that time. Quins clearly had a figure for his services and that wasn't enough for MB so maybe the difference was unbridgeable?? Who knows but he has a contract it expires it is up to him and the club to agree an new one or he moves on, which appears to be what has happened. It isn't earth shattering.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Who the fudge is doing background reading on the signing of a back who'll be 36 next season, why would someone?

Ah, the good old "I want to have strident opinions on a topic I know next to nothing about". Good stuff.

And nothing as yet shows they've gotten things wrong, we've no idea how much he'll play from now, how Quins results will go, how Quins might benefit from gaining experience on other players. Also Quins look like they might finish top 4 this season, which is great, but we're not talking about anything especially important when finishing top 4 looks to about as good as it could get.

It't not a great way for a club career to end for someone who's become such a fixture at a club, but contracts end and careers end. It's just how it is. He could try to act with a little dignity, but then perhaps he wouldn't be who he is

They got it wrong in a) how they handled it which is realistically what this entire conversation is about, and b) their understanding of the strength of the squad options behind him. He is the only good fullback at the club, currently, with a couple of young players who might be able to make it there, a guy who's fucking terrible there, and a guy who's a much better wing than a fullback. Whether we finish top 4 or not or whether that's the ceiling or whatever is genuinely irrelevant.

b) is the one where we'll wait and see. a) is inarguable - they fucked up. Badly.

It seems like you want to get upset about something because that's seen as cathartic. We're talking about a club who whether or not they retain Brown might struggle to make top 6 next season, this just cannot be that important. Whereas If I thought this was something that might cost them a league and European cup win then yes it'd start to be a thing.

There is it's not great for the parties involved, but that happens all the time when it comes to contracts, it's like getting upset over a training ground scuffle if you're not a direct party. I'm sure too the players, or at least those on Mike's side (and they won't all be) will have a bit of a rant about it, but players like most workers complain about management all the time, if it wasn't this it'd be something else. And overall one suspects the feeling at Quins is positive right now, so again it's not really an issue.

[JM2K6]

I had, I had already read somewhere else (possibly erroneously) that he had turned down three and that the further two were in an attempt to keep him. They started talks in Feb and the decision to let him go was taken in December. I do not believe there was not a fair amount of toing and froing in that time. Quins clearly had a figure for his services and that wasn't enough for MB so maybe the difference was unbridgeable?? Who knows but he has a contract it expires it is up to him and the club to agree an new one or he moves on, which appears to be what has happened. It isn't earth shattering.

No, you've gotten yourself confused again. No-one said they made 5 offers (lol). It's only ever been one offer, and two after he'd been told to leave and had agreed to join Falcons.

What you believe doesn't really matter - both Brown *and* Laurie Dalrymple have confirmed that the club changed their minds in December. The club went from negotiating with Brown on a new contract that suits both parties, to "no offer at all will be forthcoming, goodbye". You can't agree with an offer when one is no longer being made.

For a guy who's been at the club for 18 years to go from discussing a new contract, to being binned off in a 4 minute "actually we don't want you any more" meeting is pretty awful handling of the situation.

[JM2K6]

Who the fudge is doing background reading on the signing of a back who'll be 36 next season, why would someone?

Ah, the good old "I want to have strident opinions on a topic I know next to nothing about". Good stuff.

And nothing as yet shows they've gotten things wrong, we've no idea how much he'll play from now, how Quins results will go, how Quins might benefit from gaining experience on other players. Also Quins look like they might finish top 4 this season, which is great, but we're not talking about anything especially important when finishing top 4 looks to about as good as it could get.

It't not a great way for a club career to end for someone who's become such a fixture at a club, but contracts end and careers end. It's just how it is. He could try to act with a little dignity, but then perhaps he wouldn't be who he is

They got it wrong in a) how they handled it which is realistically what this entire conversation is about, and b) their understanding of the strength of the squad options behind him. He is the only good fullback at the club, currently, with a couple of young players who might be able to make it there, a guy who's fucking terrible there, and a guy who's a much better wing than a fullback. Whether we finish top 4 or not or whether that's the ceiling or whatever is genuinely irrelevant.

b) is the one where we'll wait and see. a) is inarguable - they fucked up. Badly.

It seems like you want to get upset about something because that's seen as cathartic. We're talking about a club who whether or not they retain Brown might struggle to make top 6 next season, this just cannot be that important. Whereas If I thought this was something that might cost them a league and European cup win then yes it'd start to be a thing.

This is absolute gibberish again. It's important to the club and to the fans of that club. If Quins end up with no recognised fullback next season then yeah, that might actually fuck their recent resurgence right in the ear. But it's also important to Brown, and important to fans of the team who've watched him be part of the side for so long and be such a great player for the club for so long. These things do actually matter. To people with any kind of emotional attachment to anything, that is.

There is it's not great for the parties involved, but that happens all the time when it comes to contracts, it's like getting upset over a training ground scuffle if you're not a direct party. I'm sure too the players, or at least those on Mike's side (and they won't all be) will have a bit of a rant about it, but players like most workers complain about management all the time, if it wasn't this it'd be something else. And overall one suspects the feeling at Quins is positive right now, so again it's not really an issue.

Ah yeah that's why Marler and co have been slagging off the recruitment guy on twitter, all very normal and positive. Players like Brown traditionally get treated a hell of a lot better by their clubs - and with more honesty.

I realise there's an emotional aspect to this you're incapable of understanding, but if you don't care about this at all, why are you even posting about it?

[Kawazaki]

I'm mostly amused Brown didn't realise his time might be up when his contract expired. Though in fairness he wouldn't be the only player to make this mistake, they're not picked for their brains

Yes, that's exactly what happened here.

Or alternatively he was in contract negotiations and was completely blindsided when the club reversed their position and decided they didn't want him.

Blindsided? They made him offers which he rejected.

[JM2K6]

I'm mostly amused Brown didn't realise his time might be up when his contract expired. Though in fairness he wouldn't be the only player to make this mistake, they're not picked for their brains

Yes, that's exactly what happened here.

Or alternatively he was in contract negotiations and was completely blindsided when the club reversed their position and decided they didn't want him.

Blindsided? They made him offers which he rejected.

Yes, blindsided. When you are in contract negotiations, not accepting the first offer isn't uncommon. You seem to think that Quins went "if you don't accept this offer there's no place for you". That's not what happened. As both Brown and Dalrymple made clear, the club changed their mind in December and decided that actually they didn't want to offer anything at all, and that he should leave at the end of the season. This was a marked departure from, well, every interaction with the club since his academy days.

Hence, blindsided.

[Openside]

Ah, the good old "I want to have strident opinions on a topic I know next to nothing about". Good stuff.



They got it wrong in a) how they handled it which is realistically what this entire conversation is about, and b) their understanding of the strength of the squad options behind him. He is the only good fullback at the club, currently, with a couple of young players who might be able to make it there, a guy who's fucking terrible there, and a guy who's a much better wing than a fullback. Whether we finish top 4 or not or whether that's the ceiling or whatever is genuinely irrelevant.

b) is the one where we'll wait and see. a) is inarguable - they fucked up. Badly.

It seems like you want to get upset about something because that's seen as cathartic. We're talking about a club who whether or not they retain Brown might struggle to make top 6 next season, this just cannot be that important. Whereas If I thought this was something that might cost them a league and European cup win then yes it'd start to be a thing.

This is absolute gibberish again. It's important to the club and to the fans of that club. If Quins end up with no recognised fullback next season then yeah, that might actually fuck their recent resurgence right in the ear. But it's also important to Brown, and important to fans of the team who've watched him be part of the side for so long and be such a great player for the club for so long. These things do actually matter. To people with any kind of emotional attachment to anything, that is.

There is it's not great for the parties involved, but that happens all the time when it comes to contracts, it's like getting upset over a training ground scuffle if you're not a direct party. I'm sure too the players, or at least those on Mike's side (and they won't all be) will have a bit of a rant about it, but players like most workers complain about management all the time, if it wasn't this it'd be something else. And overall one suspects the feeling at Quins is positive right now, so again it's not really an issue.

Ah yeah that's why Marler and co have been slagging off the recruitment guy on twitter, all very normal and positive. Players like Brown traditionally get treated a hell of a lot better by their clubs - and with more honesty.

I realise there's an emotional aspect to this you're incapable of understanding, but if you don't care about this at all, why are you even posting about it?

Are you all right Hun??