Quins bite back in Brown saga

[Torquemada 1420]

For Brown... no. This is the first red card in 351 matches. You're reaching very hard if you think him being chopsy on the pitch is "outcomes the wrong side of the line". He's never been a dirty player, just a confrontational one, and has a better disciplinary record than the majority of his peers.

Assume by peers you mean other players and not specifically ones from working class upbringings? I don't know what his record for cards is but FB is not a position I'd imagine many players to have high brandishing counts for. And doubt anyone would have records on penalty counts.

Obviously he has had a lot on his mind anyway with recent events but he wouldn't be the first player with a high profile career who tarnished it at the end due to petty behaviour driven by frustration at own fading powers. Not wanted by Eng or his lifelong club must be a tough one given his drive motivations. Few will recall Jauzion becoming a bit of an angry, cheap shot merchant in his last season or so.

[JM2K6]

For Brown... no. This is the first red card in 351 matches. You're reaching very hard if you think him being chopsy on the pitch is "outcomes the wrong side of the line". He's never been a dirty player, just a confrontational one, and has a better disciplinary record than the majority of his peers.

Assume by peers you mean other players and not specifically ones from working class upbringings? I don't know what his record for cards is but FB is not a position I'd imagine many players to have high brandishing counts for. And doubt anyone would have records on penalty counts.

Obviously he has had a lot on his mind anyway with recent events but he wouldn't be the first player with a high profile career who tarnished it at the end due to petty behaviour driven by frustration at own fading powers. Not wanted by Eng or his lifelong club must be a tough one given his drive motivations. Few will recall Jauzion becoming a bit of an angry, cheap shot merchant in his last season or so.

I mean other professional rugby players. His record was pretty much spotless up til now, unless we're suddenly getting all hysterical about minor scuffles. You'd expect even a fullback to have picked up the occasional ban for a tip tackle or a head shot, especially when it's someone who *is* confrontational and *is* a very physical player. But, no - there's been nothing like that at all. He's never crossed the line before as far as I can remember, and his discipline has never been a problem for club or country.

As for his fading powers, his form in the last few months has been incredible, and made all the more remarkable given how poor his form had been for an extended period before that.

I think you're trying to shoehorn in a narrative that just doesn't fit, sorry. He's not Delon Armitage.

[Torquemada 1420]

As for his fading powers, his form in the last few months has been incredible, and made all the more remarkable given how poor his form had been for an extended period before that.

Haven't seen much of him (don't get to watch many Quins games) so will take your word for it. If true, you think he might be even more annoyed at Quins elbowing him. BTW, sure it's coincidence, but his form picked up right around time when contract negotiations came up...............

[JM2K6]

As for his fading powers, his form in the last few months has been incredible, and made all the more remarkable given how poor his form had been for an extended period before that.

Haven't seen much of him (don't get to watch many Quins games) so will take your word for it. If true, you think he might be even more annoyed at Quins elbowing him. BTW, sure it's coincidence, but his form picked up right around time when contract negotiations came up...............

His form picked up after Quins had told him he wasn't wanted, and after he had agreed to join falcons. The biggest catalyst appears to be the removal of that lead weight bluffer Gustard.

[Kawazaki]

The premiership is full of players from 'working class' backgrounds. In fact, far more of all players will be from a state school education background than from a private independent school background.

[Torquemada 1420]

The premiership is full of players from 'working class' backgrounds. In fact, far more of all players will be from a state school education background than from a private independent school background.

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

[Torquemada 1420]

His form picked up after Quins had told him he wasn't wanted, and after he had agreed to join falcons. The biggest catalyst appears to be the removal of that lead weight bluffer Gustard.

The downside of that is it implies Brown wasn't trying which really goes against my notion of him being the super competitor.

[shaggy]

The premiership is full of players from 'working class' backgrounds. In fact, far more of all players will be from a state school education background than from a private independent school background.

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

In a Keir Starmer kind of way?

[Hal Jordan]

His form picked up after Quins had told him he wasn't wanted, and after he had agreed to join falcons. The biggest catalyst appears to be the removal of that lead weight bluffer Gustard.

The downside of that is it implies Brown wasn't trying which really goes against my notion of him being the super competitor.

Nah, everyone was suffering under Gustard. Fucking Dementor.

[Uncle fester]

IIRC even the mid range entry level for stamping is just 6 weeks. Would imagine he'll end up with 3 or 4 weeks. Seems to be how these things work.

Mid level on a body part that is not the face?

[JM2K6]

His form picked up after Quins had told him he wasn't wanted, and after he had agreed to join falcons. The biggest catalyst appears to be the removal of that lead weight bluffer Gustard.

The downside of that is it implies Brown wasn't trying which really goes against my notion of him being the super competitor.

He was definitely trying, he was just making mistakes and having to play to Gustard's tedious, negative gameplan which didn't make the most of his strengths, either. With the change in emphasis from defence-first to "just go out there and show people what you can do in attack, and have fun doing it", Brown's form improved alongside plenty of other players, just more markedly in his case.

Bad form is rarely down to players not trying. Every pro player tries, or they don't stay a pro player for long. In Brown's case, he had a real career drop in form after his dreadful KO against Italy, and struggled to be consistent after that.

[Torquemada 1420]

The premiership is full of players from 'working class' backgrounds. In fact, far more of all players will be from a state school education background than from a private independent school background.

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

In a Keir Starmer kind of way?

A Nigel Kennedy kinds of way!

[Torquemada 1420]

He was definitely trying, he was just making mistakes and having to play to Gustard's tedious, negative gameplan which didn't make the most of his strengths, either. With the change in emphasis from defence-first to "just go out there and show people what you can do in attack, and have fun doing it", Brown's form improved alongside plenty of other players, just more markedly in his case.

Bad form is rarely down to players not trying. Every pro player tries, or they don't stay a pro player for long. In Brown's case, he had a real career drop in form after his dreadful KO against Italy, and struggled to be consistent after that.

I'm never 100% convinced by this. And it happens a lot with Fre clubs (ask Deano for his time at Grenoble) where a player or players don't like a coach for whatever and stop playing. I know you are saying that's not what Brown did but my point is that it all becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. In the end, one or other has to go.

I disagree with players not trying. Watching even post Prem interviews with coaches, you hear comments about players not doing so. Blackett after one of Wasps performances recently comes to mind. Watching the likes of Bath and Glaws, you'd think half the players weren't trying half the time! Just different halves each week..........

[JM2K6]

He was definitely trying, he was just making mistakes and having to play to Gustard's tedious, negative gameplan which didn't make the most of his strengths, either. With the change in emphasis from defence-first to "just go out there and show people what you can do in attack, and have fun doing it", Brown's form improved alongside plenty of other players, just more markedly in his case.

Bad form is rarely down to players not trying. Every pro player tries, or they don't stay a pro player for long. In Brown's case, he had a real career drop in form after his dreadful KO against Italy, and struggled to be consistent after that.

I'm never 100% convinced by this. And it happens a lot with Fre clubs (ask Deano for his time at Grenoble) where a player or players don't like a coach for whatever and stop playing. I know you are saying that's not what Brown did but my point is that it all becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. In the end, one or other has to go.

I disagree with players not trying. Watching even post Prem interviews with coaches, you hear comments about players not doing so. Blackett after one of Wasps performances recently comes to mind. Watching the likes of Bath and Glaws, you'd think half the players weren't trying half the time! Just different halves each week..........

Sure, OK. Definitely not what was happening with Brown, though. He was just making a shit-ton of errors while still trying to be an all action hero.

[Kawazaki]

The premiership is full of players from 'working class' backgrounds. In fact, far more of all players will be from a state school education background than from a private independent school background.

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

My definition is based purely on whether or not the player's parents paid to put them through private education.

[Big D]

IIRC even the mid range entry level for stamping is just 6 weeks. Would imagine he'll end up with 3 or 4 weeks. Seems to be how these things work.

Mid level on a body part that is not the face?

Can't remember if there is a different sanction for stamping/trampling on body v on face.

Not defending Brown, just when have bans ever matched the offence in this situation? Plus the customary half off for good behaviour.

[Kawazaki]

IIRC even the mid range entry level for stamping is just 6 weeks. Would imagine he'll end up with 3 or 4 weeks. Seems to be how these things work.

Mid level on a body part that is not the face?

Can't remember if there is a different sanction for stamping/trampling on body v on face.

Not defending Brown, just when have bans ever matched the offence in this situation? Plus the customary half off for good behaviour.

It's treated massively different. It's to the head and around the eye area. Brown is fucked on both counts.

[Happyhooker]

The premiership is full of players from 'working class' backgrounds. In fact, far more of all players will be from a state school education background than from a private independent school background.

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

My definition is based purely on whether or not the player's parents paid to put them through private education.

So someone with a scholarship is working class?

[Big D]

It's treated massively different. It's to the head and around the eye area. Brown is fucked on both counts.

Just had a quick look at the regulations.

If it is reckless contact with the eyes he has been done for, which it would have to be in the refs report, then mid entry is 12 so he'd get 6 weeks after good behaviour etc. Given Barnes and the TV red never once mention contact with the eyes it is doubtful that will be what he is done for.

In reg 17 of the laws it doesn't give specifics for stamping on the head other than to say contact with eyes or head should be mid entry level. Which for stamping and trampling is 6 weeks and top entry 12+. So he'll end up with between 3-6 weeks when all said and done. Even if given 6 weeks it isn't that big a ban.

[Torquemada 1420]

I disagree with players not trying. Watching even post Prem interviews with coaches, you hear comments about players not doing so. Blackett after one of Wasps performances recently comes to mind. Watching the likes of Bath and Glaws, you'd think half the players weren't trying half the time! Just different halves each week..........

Sure, OK. Definitely not what was happening with Brown, though. He was just making a shit-ton of errors while still trying to be an all action hero.

And right on cue, Blackett (again) and Boyd not happy with their sides' half arsed efforts.

[Torquemada 1420]

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

My definition is based purely on whether or not the player's parents paid to put them through private education.
[/quote]
Yup. Very different to mine.

[JM2K6]

I disagree with players not trying. Watching even post Prem interviews with coaches, you hear comments about players not doing so. Blackett after one of Wasps performances recently comes to mind. Watching the likes of Bath and Glaws, you'd think half the players weren't trying half the time! Just different halves each week..........

Sure, OK. Definitely not what was happening with Brown, though. He was just making a shit-ton of errors while still trying to be an all action hero.

And right on cue, Blackett (again) and Boyd not happy with their sides' half arsed efforts.

Did Blackett accuse his players of not trying? That's bizarre.

[notfatcat]

What the heck is this working class tangent?!!

[Kawazaki]

I suspect your definition of working class and mine differ.

My definition is based purely on whether or not the player's parents paid to put them through private education.

So someone with a scholarship is working class?

Sure, why not.

[Kawazaki]

What the heck is this working class tangent?!!

It was introduced as some kind of prima facie pre cursor to a player being a thug. Total bollocks of course.

Exhibits presented to prove the theory were Brown and Sinckler.

Of course most of us know the real reason those pair are cunts.

[fishfoodie]

What the heck is this working class tangent?!!

It was introduced as some kind of prima facie pre cursor to a player being a thug. Total bollocks of course.

Exhibits presented to prove the theory were Brown and Sinckler.

Of course most of us know the real reason those pair are cunts.

I couldn't give a fuck where someone when to school; if you intentionally bring your foot down on someone head, as far as I'm concerned, you're a scumbag. It's in the same place as gouging for me, & I think the bans should reflect that !

For either of them, I'd have no problem with someone getting a season ban.

[Torquemada 1420]

What the heck is this working class tangent?!!

It was introduced as some kind of prima facie pre cursor to a player being a thug. Total bollocks of course.

Exhibits presented to prove the theory were Brown and Sinckler.

Of course most of us know the real reason those pair are cunts.

No it was not. It was part of the angry man explanation for Brown and Sinckler. Both players have publicly talked about their less privileged (cw typical rugby) backgrounds. Precursor to a player being a thug would be being born in SA....

[Torquemada 1420]

Sure, OK. Definitely not what was happening with Brown, though. He was just making a shit-ton of errors while still trying to be an all action hero.

And right on cue, Blackett (again) and Boyd not happy with their sides' half arsed efforts.

Did Blackett accuse his players of not trying? That's bizarre.

Rarely will a coach explicitly use those words preferring to allude to it. Boyd was damning in listing every facet of play and saying his players were 2nd best in all of them.

Curiously for me, you have coaches who do the reverse. Both Hooper and Skivington come on week after week talking up their sides sh*t performances.

[JM2K6]

And right on cue, Blackett (again) and Boyd not happy with their sides' half arsed efforts.

Did Blackett accuse his players of not trying? That's bizarre.

Rarely will a coach explicitly use those words preferring to allude to it. Boyd was damning in listing every facet of play and saying his players were 2nd best in all of them.

Curiously for me, you have coaches who do the reverse. Both Hooper and Skivington come on week after week talking up their sides sh*t performances.

Blackett was very specific in his complaints. "Not trying" didn't seem to be at all related to any of them.

But I do think the reason why coaches don't accuse their players of not trying isn't because they're scared of saying it, it's because they know it's not true. There's so many factors that can lead to coming off second best, to a drop in intensity, and it would be a real wanker of a coach who would accuse people who put their bodies on the line every week of not trying.

I reckon you can use it as a criticism of individual things like a player giving up a chase or not fancying a tackle or pushing to get across - but that same player will still put the effort in for the vast majority of the time.

[Torquemada 1420]

Blackett was very specific in his complaints. "Not trying" didn't seem to be at all related to any of them.

But I do think the reason why coaches don't accuse their players of not trying isn't because they're scared of saying it, it's because they know it's not true. There's so many factors that can lead to coming off second best, to a drop in intensity, and it would be a real wanker of a coach who would accuse people who put their bodies on the line every week of not trying.

I reckon you can use it as a criticism of individual things like a player giving up a chase or not fancying a tackle or pushing to get across - but that same player will still put the effort in for the vast majority of the time.

I guess we get into the nuances of descriptions. When you see serial offenders like Bath & Glaws (hey: contrast them with newcomers Brizzle & Exeter a stone's throw away), I would challenge anyone to seriously claim that in the former 2, an attitude problem pervades across the clubs. Once that sets in (the Blues for example), it's friggin' nigh impossible to root it out. And the reverse is true: you rock up at Sandy Park and decide you only want to give 100% when the ntl coach is watching, you'd be top of the next transfer list.

Clermont have run into this rut over the last season and a half. In their case, over familiarity has set in (fall of the Roman Empire and all that) and Azema has been smart enough to realise it and get out. They'll struggle without a wholesale clear out or a raft of retirements. Guys like Iturria, Jedrasiak, Fischer (and even Penaud to an extent) are going backwards in that environment.

You are right that airing the dirty laundry is dangerous. Not so much from the "w*nker" perspective but that it's a suicide mission as Lievremont discovered when he was ntl coach. But I disagree that there aren't swathes of players you really aren't putting bodies on the line every week (PS I'm not putting my hands upanymore than I am volunteering for the SAS but I'm not being paid to do the job).

[JM2K6]

Blackett was very specific in his complaints. "Not trying" didn't seem to be at all related to any of them.

But I do think the reason why coaches don't accuse their players of not trying isn't because they're scared of saying it, it's because they know it's not true. There's so many factors that can lead to coming off second best, to a drop in intensity, and it would be a real wanker of a coach who would accuse people who put their bodies on the line every week of not trying.

I reckon you can use it as a criticism of individual things like a player giving up a chase or not fancying a tackle or pushing to get across - but that same player will still put the effort in for the vast majority of the time.

I guess we get into the nuances of descriptions. When you see serial offenders like Bath & Glaws (hey: contrast them with newcomers Brizzle & Exeter a stone's throw away), I would challenge anyone to seriously claim that in the former 2, an attitude problem pervades across the clubs. Once that sets in (the Blues for example), it's friggin' nigh impossible to root it out. And the reverse is true: you rock up at Sandy Park and decide you only want to give 100% when the ntl coach is watching, you'd be top of the next transfer list.

Clermont have run into this rut over the last season and a half. In their case, over familiarity has set in (fall of the Roman Empire and all that) and Azema has been smart enough to realise it and get out. They'll struggle without a wholesale clear out or a raft of retirements. Guys like Iturria, Jedrasiak, Fischer (and even Penaud to an extent) are going backwards in that environment.

You are right that airing the dirty laundry is dangerous. Not so much from the "w*nker" perspective but that it's a suicide mission as Lievremont discovered when he was ntl coach. But I disagree that there aren't swathes of players you really aren't putting bodies on the line every week (PS I'm not putting my hands upanymore than I am volunteering for the SAS but I'm not being paid to do the job).

Thinking about it, I definitely do hold the opinion that Clermont essentially clocked off most of the second half for loads of their Euro games, so there is something to that. But I don't think bad teams are bad because they don't try, it's normally a combination of factors. And when a previously form team plays badly, there can be a whole host of reasons - including the very fact that if you start making mistakes where previously it all came so easily, it's not uncommon for that to snowball and the frustration to lead to further mistakes. Like a batsman out of form - they're rarely not trying, it's just that what worked before has stopped working now and they don't really understand why.

[Kawazaki]

Apart from one person, I've not read anyone, on any forum or social media platform who doesn't think the Brown stamp was a stamp, was deliberate and was malicious.

[Torquemada 1420]

Thinking about it, I definitely do hold the opinion that Clermont essentially clocked off most of the second half for loads of their Euro games, so there is something to that. But I don't think bad teams are bad because they don't try, it's normally a combination of factors. And when a previously form team plays badly, there can be a whole host of reasons - including the very fact that if you start making mistakes where previously it all came so easily, it's not uncommon for that to snowball and the frustration to lead to further mistakes. Like a batsman out of form - they're rarely not trying, it's just that what worked before has stopped working now and they don't really understand why.

Oh. Agree. It's a complex interaction of a set of factors that might ultimately result in some players not giving it all rather than starting with any players looking for a free ride. Few Inzamans in rugby but I always am suspicious of players with an obvious over interest in being male models e.g. Henson.

[Torquemada 1420]

Apart from one person, I've not read anyone, on any forum or social media platform who doesn't think the Brown stamp was a stamp, was deliberate and was malicious.

Yup. What seals it for me is he clearly regains his balance and is standing, bearing his weight on his left leg. To place one's right leg behind like that and then apply pressure is an entirely unnatural thing to do (some climbing moves when chimnenying maybe). He knew exactly what he was doing.

[JM2K6]

Who said it was an accident? Was it Rodney? I bet it was Rodney.

[Kawazaki]

Apart from one person, I've not read anyone, on any forum or social media platform who doesn't think the Brown stamp was a stamp, was deliberate and was malicious.

Yup. What seals it for me is he clearly regains his balance and is standing, bearing his weight on his left leg. To place one's right leg behind like that and then apply pressure is an entirely unnatural thing to do (some climbing moves when chimnenying maybe). He knew exactly what he was doing.

Grounds for Newcastle to terminate his contract perhaps?

[notfatcat]

No chance Newcastle will terminate his contract. They've already set up PR and marketing deals with all the local working men's clubs and some heavy industry factories.

[Torquemada 1420]

Apart from one person, I've not read anyone, on any forum or social media platform who doesn't think the Brown stamp was a stamp, was deliberate and was malicious.

Yup. What seals it for me is he clearly regains his balance and is standing, bearing his weight on his left leg. To place one's right leg behind like that and then apply pressure is an entirely unnatural thing to do (some climbing moves when chimnenying maybe). He knew exactly what he was doing.

Grounds for Newcastle to terminate his contract perhaps?

Deano has been involved with worse bloody scandals involving Quins players.........

[Ymx]

Who said it was an accident? Was it Rodney? I bet it was Rodney.

in realtime it looks like he just loses balance (not enough for it to be purely accidental IMO, but they may see it differently),

[Ymx]

Just looking for the Brown slicing up Connor Murray’s face thing, found this on sports joe.

Is this actually a real interview??

During his chat with Murphy and Trimble, Brown reflected on that flashpoint and gave his side of the story:

TRIMBLE: The biggest thing that rugby has done recently is to remove the law where you can score a try at the base of the posts, which was a dumb one anyway. You did, actually Mike, contribute to the law about not kicking the ball at the ruck after you kicked Murray in the head that time!

BROWN: I know, yeah. I do know that! Yeah, and just to clarify, it was an accident. And, actually, I didn’t kick him in the head. It was the backwards motion that caught him, so I would say that his head was actually on the wrong side but whatever! But, yeah, I obviously took a lot of heat and stick from your fellow countrymen for that.

TRIMBLE: But they don’t know. They don’t know the new, rebranded Mike Brown, though. They don’t know that you’ve got a heart of gold and you’re a sweetheart.

BROWN: And I’ve helped change the rules in rugby so everyone’s a winner, at the end of the day.

TRIMBLE: You’re blazing a trail. No, I think maybe the first two might have been accidental but I think the third and fourth kicks to the head probably weren’t!

BROWN: Yeah, I just got too enthusiastic and, yeah, I know!

MURPHY: At the time you’re watching it and, as an Irish person you’re like, ‘My God!’ And a few years later, in hindsight, if I was an English supporter I’d be like, ‘Yeah! Get into him!’ That’s rugby. That’s the beauty of it, right? Whoever’s side you’re on, it doesn't matter as long as it’s going your way.

BROWN: Yeah, look, people seem to love to hate me so I’m always going to get stick for things a lot less than that, usually, so I can understand it. But it was an accident. Like I said, his head was in the way of my boot, so, I’m going to put the blame on him… maybe!

Actually it was just a jokey banter interview. Fair play!