Quins bite back in Brown saga

[SaintK]

It seems like you want to get upset about something because that's seen as cathartic. We're talking about a club who whether or not they retain Brown might struggle to make top 6 next season, this just cannot be that important. Whereas If I thought this was something that might cost them a league and European cup win then yes it'd start to be a thing.

This is absolute gibberish again. It's important to the club and to the fans of that club. If Quins end up with no recognised fullback next season then yeah, that might actually fuck their recent resurgence right in the ear. But it's also important to Brown, and important to fans of the team who've watched him be part of the side for so long and be such a great player for the club for so long. These things do actually matter. To people with any kind of emotional attachment to anything, that is.

There is it's not great for the parties involved, but that happens all the time when it comes to contracts, it's like getting upset over a training ground scuffle if you're not a direct party. I'm sure too the players, or at least those on Mike's side (and they won't all be) will have a bit of a rant about it, but players like most workers complain about management all the time, if it wasn't this it'd be something else. And overall one suspects the feeling at Quins is positive right now, so again it's not really an issue.

Ah yeah that's why Marler and co have been slagging off the recruitment guy on twitter, all very normal and positive. Players like Brown traditionally get treated a hell of a lot better by their clubs - and with more honesty.

I realise there's an emotional aspect to this you're incapable of understanding, but if you don't care about this at all, why are you even posting about it?

Are you all right Hun??

Hun? JM's not German is he?

[Torquemada 1420]

The club went from negotiating with Brown on a new contract that suits both parties,

What am I missing? If that was the case, why didn't Brown sign and all the rest is ..errr....redundant?

[Openside]

This is absolute gibberish again. It's important to the club and to the fans of that club. If Quins end up with no recognised fullback next season then yeah, that might actually fuck their recent resurgence right in the ear. But it's also important to Brown, and important to fans of the team who've watched him be part of the side for so long and be such a great player for the club for so long. These things do actually matter. To people with any kind of emotional attachment to anything, that is.



Ah yeah that's why Marler and co have been slagging off the recruitment guy on twitter, all very normal and positive. Players like Brown traditionally get treated a hell of a lot better by their clubs - and with more honesty.

I realise there's an emotional aspect to this you're incapable of understanding, but if you don't care about this at all, why are you even posting about it?

Are you all right Hun??

Hun? JM's not German is he?

Unlikely as he is getting emotional.

[Openside]

The club went from negotiating with Brown on a new contract that suits both parties,

What am I missing? If that was the case, why didn't Brown sign and all the rest is ..errr....redundant?

The bottom line is the club offered him a contract in Feb which he declined. Hard to believe there was no communication until club decided in December that they were not going to renew. One can only assume Quins were looking to cut their wage bill and Brown didn't think it should be him that took the hit??

[JM2K6]

The club went from negotiating with Brown on a new contract that suits both parties,

What am I missing? If that was the case, why didn't Brown sign and all the rest is ..errr....redundant?

The bottom line is the club offered him a contract in Feb which he declined. Hard to believe there was no communication until club decided in December that they were not going to renew. One can only assume Quins were looking to cut their wage bill and Brown didn't think it should be him that took the hit??

You don't need to assume. You can read what Dalrymple actually said the reasons for it were. Or you can carry on bloviating while admirably sticking to your guns re: not reading anything that might inform you.

Torq - the club didn't get as far as making a second offer and instead decided they were going to make no offer at all (not even saying "the contract we've offered is all we're going to offer"). Honestly it's very strange watching people bang on about something where the sum total of information available is in two interviews that are available to read and yet they haven't read them...

Openside: If you don't think there's an emotional aspect to how a club legend is treated by the club, for both the player and the fans, then you're an idiot. We're talking about a sports team. If players and fans didn't give a shit, sport wouldn't exist.

[SaintK]

The club went from negotiating with Brown on a new contract that suits both parties,

What am I missing? If that was the case, why didn't Brown sign and all the rest is ..errr....redundant?

The bottom line is the club offered him a contract in Feb which he declined. Hard to believe there was no communication until club decided in December that they were not going to renew. One can only assume Quins were looking to cut their wage bill and Brown didn't think it should be him that took the hit??

Nah!! JM's about spot on with this

[Kawazaki]

The club went from negotiating with Brown on a new contract that suits both parties,

What am I missing? If that was the case, why didn't Brown sign and all the rest is ..errr....redundant?

The bottom line is the club offered him a contract in Feb which he declined. Hard to believe there was no communication until club decided in December that they were not going to renew. One can only assume Quins were looking to cut their wage bill and Brown didn't think it should be him that took the hit??

Exactly. Gets an offer in February 2020 and sees the unsigned offer retracted in December 2020. Now, I wonder what happened between February and December last year that might have affected finances - any ideas?

[JM2K6]

So Laurie Dalyrmple is lying then? Strong statement but I guess you must believe it.

Weird that the club made two more offers after that if money was the problem, too.

[Kawazaki]

So Laurie Dalyrmple is lying then? Strong statement but I guess you must believe it.

Weird that the club made two more offers after that if money was the problem, too.

What do you think Dalyrmple actually said?

[JM2K6]

So Laurie Dalyrmple is lying then? Strong statement but I guess you must believe it.

Weird that the club made two more offers after that if money was the problem, too.

What do you think Dalyrmple actually said?

Exactly what he said in the interview. I've watched the interview and the words have been transcribed. If the money was the main problem, he'd likely have said so, and they'd likely have told Brown that as well. Instead they went from making an offer, to deciding that actually he had no future at the club (for reasons including the dramatic improvement of academy players, and wanting to reduce the age profile of the squad, and wanting to build for the next 3-4 years - and yes, money, because money *always* matters to a certain extent), then changing their minds and offering him contracts after it was too late.

I know you're desperate to make out that Brown is the bad guy who's just angry and thick here, but the club really have acted very poorly and made a rod for their own back.

(And even if you're right and it was actually about the salary cap reduction, which neither LD nor Brown have said, the club had six months to talk to Brown about the change. And, well, they didn't. They left it to December and decided that was that.)

[Openside]

So Laurie Dalyrmple is lying then? Strong statement but I guess you must believe it.

Weird that the club made two more offers after that if money was the problem, too.

What do you think Dalyrmple actually said?

Exactly what he said in the interview. I've watched the interview and the words have been transcribed. If the money was the main problem, he'd likely have said so, and they'd likely have told Brown that as well. Instead they went from making an offer, to deciding that actually he had no future at the club (for reasons including the dramatic improvement of academy players, and wanting to reduce the age profile of the squad, and wanting to build for the next 3-4 years - and yes, money, because money *always* matters to a certain extent), then changing their minds and offering him contracts after it was too late.

I know you're desperate to make out that Brown is the bad guy who's just angry and thick here, but the club really have acted very poorly and made a rod for their own back.

(And even if you're right and it was actually about the salary cap reduction, which neither LD nor Brown have said, the club had six months to talk to Brown about the change. And, well, they didn't. They left it to December and decided that was that.)

I don't think Brown is the bad guy or thick - Money is ALWAYS the issue (esp with a cap) - I just think he possibly overplayed his hand and forgot ultimately Quins is a business and loyalty although lovely isn't something they can necessarily afford.

[Kawazaki]

So Laurie Dalyrmple is lying then? Strong statement but I guess you must believe it.

Weird that the club made two more offers after that if money was the problem, too.

What do you think Dalyrmple actually said?

Exactly what he said in the interview. I've watched the interview and the words have been transcribed. If the money was the main problem, he'd likely have said so, and they'd likely have told Brown that as well. Instead they went from making an offer, to deciding that actually he had no future at the club (for reasons including the dramatic improvement of academy players, and wanting to reduce the age profile of the squad, and wanting to build for the next 3-4 years - and yes, money, because money *always* matters to a certain extent), then changing their minds and offering him contracts after it was too late.

I know you're desperate to make out that Brown is the bad guy who's just angry and thick here, but the club really have acted very poorly and made a rod for their own back.

(And even if you're right and it was actually about the salary cap reduction, which neither LD nor Brown have said, the club had six months to talk to Brown about the change. And, well, they didn't. They left it to December and decided that was that.)

I'm not desperate for anything. I actually feel sorry for Mike Brown because he's clearly upset and I don't like to see anyone lose their job. However, I do wonder why a contract offered in February was still not signed in December.

[JM2K6]

What do you think Dalyrmple actually said?

Exactly what he said in the interview. I've watched the interview and the words have been transcribed. If the money was the main problem, he'd likely have said so, and they'd likely have told Brown that as well. Instead they went from making an offer, to deciding that actually he had no future at the club (for reasons including the dramatic improvement of academy players, and wanting to reduce the age profile of the squad, and wanting to build for the next 3-4 years - and yes, money, because money *always* matters to a certain extent), then changing their minds and offering him contracts after it was too late.

I know you're desperate to make out that Brown is the bad guy who's just angry and thick here, but the club really have acted very poorly and made a rod for their own back.

(And even if you're right and it was actually about the salary cap reduction, which neither LD nor Brown have said, the club had six months to talk to Brown about the change. And, well, they didn't. They left it to December and decided that was that.)

I'm not desperate for anything. I actually feel sorry for Mike Brown because he's clearly upset and I don't like to see anyone lose their job. However, I do wonder why a contract offered in February was still not signed in December.

Because the offer had been rejected? He'd turned down Quins' first offer and was clearly expecting negotiation. And the club gave him no indication they were going to bin him off - not least because the club didn't even decide that until December and then gave him no room for response.

Round and round we go...

[JM2K6]

I don't think Brown is the bad guy or thick - Money is ALWAYS the issue (esp with a cap) - I just think he possibly overplayed his hand and forgot ultimately Quins is a business and loyalty although lovely isn't something they can necessarily afford.

Overplayed his hand by rejecting the first offer then chasing them for negotiation?

Brown didn't overplay anything; Gustard's the one who wanted to bin off the oldies and Quins are the ones who thought it was appropriate that a club legend who was seemingly negotiating in good faith should be told of their total reversal of opinion & the effective ending of an 18-year career with the club with a 4-minute meeting late in the period where clubs are quietly negotiating with players.

Can't even say that Brown is a fool for not accepting the first contract. It's not like the club ever said "it's this or nothing". The club had ample opportunity to discuss alternatives.

[Kawazaki]

Exactly what he said in the interview. I've watched the interview and the words have been transcribed. If the money was the main problem, he'd likely have said so, and they'd likely have told Brown that as well. Instead they went from making an offer, to deciding that actually he had no future at the club (for reasons including the dramatic improvement of academy players, and wanting to reduce the age profile of the squad, and wanting to build for the next 3-4 years - and yes, money, because money *always* matters to a certain extent), then changing their minds and offering him contracts after it was too late.

I know you're desperate to make out that Brown is the bad guy who's just angry and thick here, but the club really have acted very poorly and made a rod for their own back.

(And even if you're right and it was actually about the salary cap reduction, which neither LD nor Brown have said, the club had six months to talk to Brown about the change. And, well, they didn't. They left it to December and decided that was that.)

I'm not desperate for anything. I actually feel sorry for Mike Brown because he's clearly upset and I don't like to see anyone lose their job. However, I do wonder why a contract offered in February was still not signed in December.

Because the offer had been rejected? He'd turned down Quins' first offer and was clearly expecting negotiation. And the club gave him no indication they were going to bin him off - not least because the club didn't even decide that until December and then gave him no room for response.

Round and round we go...

What part of Mike Brown rejecting an offer that was open for 10 months are you finding difficult to understand JMK?

[JM2K6]

I'm not desperate for anything. I actually feel sorry for Mike Brown because he's clearly upset and I don't like to see anyone lose their job. However, I do wonder why a contract offered in February was still not signed in December.

Because the offer had been rejected? He'd turned down Quins' first offer and was clearly expecting negotiation. And the club gave him no indication they were going to bin him off - not least because the club didn't even decide that until December and then gave him no room for response.

Round and round we go...

What part of Mike Brown rejecting an offer that was open for 10 months are you finding difficult to understand JMK?

The bit where you think it was open for 10 months.

[Kawazaki]

Because the offer had been rejected? He'd turned down Quins' first offer and was clearly expecting negotiation. And the club gave him no indication they were going to bin him off - not least because the club didn't even decide that until December and then gave him no room for response.

Round and round we go...

What part of Mike Brown rejecting an offer that was open for 10 months are you finding difficult to understand JMK?

The bit where you think it was open for 10 months.

Offer made in February.

Offer withdrawn in December.

What part of that are you struggling with?

[JM2K6]

What part of Mike Brown rejecting an offer that was open for 10 months are you finding difficult to understand JMK?

The bit where you think it was open for 10 months.

Offer made in February.

Offer withdrawn in December.

What part of that are you struggling with?

The bit where Laurie Dalrymple says these things:

1) They opened negotiations with Mike Brown regarding a new contract in February
2) Subsequent to that, at an unknown time between February and December, an offer was made
3) Mike Brown then rejects that offer (Dalrymple states that Brown rejected 3 offers from Quins, and we know 2 of them came in the new year)

It wasn't an offer being withdrawn. At some point between February and December - and presumably pretty close to February - the club made their first offer, which Brown rejected, and presumably they carried on talking at that point.

No-one has said that there was an offer still on the table in December. The opposite, in fact.

[Kawazaki]

The bit where you think it was open for 10 months.

Offer made in February.

Offer withdrawn in December.

What part of that are you struggling with?

The bit where Laurie Dalrymple says these things:

1) They opened negotiations with Mike Brown regarding a new contract in February
2) Subsequent to that, at an unknown time between February and December, an offer was made
3) Mike Brown then rejects that offer (Dalrymple states that Brown rejected 3 offers from Quins, and we know 2 of them came in the new year)

It wasn't an offer being withdrawn. At some point between February and December - and presumably pretty close to February - the club made their first offer, which Brown rejected, and presumably they carried on talking at that point.

No-one has said that there was an offer still on the table in December. The opposite, in fact.

So the problem started when Brown rejected the offer, not when Quins withdrew it.

[JM2K6]

Offer made in February.

Offer withdrawn in December.

What part of that are you struggling with?

The bit where Laurie Dalrymple says these things:

1) They opened negotiations with Mike Brown regarding a new contract in February
2) Subsequent to that, at an unknown time between February and December, an offer was made
3) Mike Brown then rejects that offer (Dalrymple states that Brown rejected 3 offers from Quins, and we know 2 of them came in the new year)

It wasn't an offer being withdrawn. At some point between February and December - and presumably pretty close to February - the club made their first offer, which Brown rejected, and presumably they carried on talking at that point.

No-one has said that there was an offer still on the table in December. The opposite, in fact.

So the problem started when Brown rejected the offer, not when Quins withdrew it.

Quins didn't withdraw anything, except the idea that they wanted Brown at the club, which represented a massive turnaround in behaviour.

It's pretty normal for a negotiation to actually include some negotiation, i.e. not just accepting the first offer that comes your way. It's entirely reasonable for him to have expected the club to either come back with an improved offer, or tell him that the offer he rejected was the best they could do. Neither of those things happened. The entire problem with what happened here was Quins changing their mind at the last second from "we'd like you at the club, let's discuss terms" to "we don't want you at the club, cheerio" and ending his 18-year Quins career with a brief chat with that useless cunt Gustard. And then they realised they'd fucked up after they binned off Gustard, and tried to get Brown back.

Hence Brown being blindsided by the decision. Hence the fans being pretty pissed off. Hence the club looking like clueless idiots.

I feel like I'm getting a headache from discussing this on here with people who really don't know what they're talking about, though. Repeating myself gets really old.

[Kawazaki]

The bit where Laurie Dalrymple says these things:

1) They opened negotiations with Mike Brown regarding a new contract in February
2) Subsequent to that, at an unknown time between February and December, an offer was made
3) Mike Brown then rejects that offer (Dalrymple states that Brown rejected 3 offers from Quins, and we know 2 of them came in the new year)

It wasn't an offer being withdrawn. At some point between February and December - and presumably pretty close to February - the club made their first offer, which Brown rejected, and presumably they carried on talking at that point.

No-one has said that there was an offer still on the table in December. The opposite, in fact.

So the problem started when Brown rejected the offer, not when Quins withdrew it.

Quins didn't withdraw anything, except the idea that they wanted Brown at the club, which represented a massive turnaround in behaviour.

It's pretty normal for a negotiation to actually include some negotiation, i.e. not just accepting the first offer that comes your way. It's entirely reasonable for him to have expected the club to either come back with an improved offer, or tell him that the offer he rejected was the best they could do. Neither of those things happened. The entire problem with what happened here was Quins changing their mind at the last second from "we'd like you at the club, let's discuss terms" to "we don't want you at the club, cheerio" and ending his 18-year Quins career with a brief chat with that useless cunt Gustard. And then they realised they'd fucked up after they binned off Gustard, and tried to get Brown back.

Hence Brown being blindsided by the decision. Hence the fans being pretty pissed off. Hence the club looking like clueless idiots.

I feel like I'm getting a headache from discussing this on here with people who really don't know what they're talking about, though. Repeating myself gets really old.

Actually, you're discussing it with dispassionate people with no skin in the game.

[JM2K6]

Well, I find it very hard to believe you're suddenly "dispassionate" about Mike Brown, a player you've gone out of your to be shitty about for quite some time, and you've been confidently arguing in this thread while repeatedly getting the basic facts of the situation wrong. So forgive me, but I think that statement is not even remotely close to being true.

Enjoy!

[Ymx]

Is this JM bait?

[Kawazaki]

Well, I find it very hard to believe you're suddenly "dispassionate" about Mike Brown, a player you've gone out of your to be shitty about for quite some time, and you've been confidently arguing in this thread while repeatedly getting the basic facts of the situation wrong. So forgive me, but I think that statement is not even remotely close to being true.

Enjoy!

Mike Brown was mostly terrible playing for England and there were far better options available who weren't picked. It happens, Ben Youngs is on 100++ caps. I only judged him as an England player as I'm an England fan. But at club level Brown is a very good player and I understand why Quins fans would love him in much the same way that Saracens fans love Brad Barritt.

But seriously, from the outside, it doesn't look like Quins are the big bad employer here at all.

[Enzedder]

Is this JM bait?

What we have is 2 or 3 argumentative sods in entrenched positions, all offering nothing new - endlessly.

[Ymx]

Indeed.

No matter how it’s painted. It’s not normal for someone to reject a contract and then wait from Feb til Dec without action or subsequent offers. Several months sure because of COVID. But the rest? And so close to end of contract.

And how incompetent is his agent to allow this, unless Brown himself wanted to leave it til the last minute ??

[JM2K6]

It wasn't from February and Brown was chasing the club for movement, so great job again there

Like I'm sure you realise February 2020 - halfway through the 19/20 season - is incredibly early to negotiate an extension to a contract that ends at the end of the 20/21 season. And then Covid shut everything down. It's not really a shock it wasn't all sorted out in February.

[Openside]

Guys I think we should lay off putting any blame at Brown's door otherwise JM might have a cry in his car

[JM2K6]

I am far more emotionally invested in the fact that you lot seem utterly incapable of reading and understanding basic sentences, I made my peace with the club's fuckup a while back

[Fangle]

A quick glance at this thread, and I would suggest that he gets a new agent.

[Ymx]

A quick glance at this thread, and I would suggest that he gets a new agent.

Exactly

[Jockaline]

Sounds quite similar to Matt Scott's situation at Edinburgh. Great in the good times but not so much in the hard times. 2020 was a hard year by any standard for everyone, including clubs and players.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/matt-sco ... cockerill/

[Torquemada 1420]

Guys I think we should lay off putting any blame at Brown's door otherwise JM might have a cry in his car

which he bought in Primrose Hill from a bloke called Brazil?

[Kawazaki]

Sounds quite similar to Matt Scott's situation at Edinburgh. Great in the good times but not so much in the hard times. 2020 was a hard year by any standard for everyone, including clubs and players.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/matt-sco ... cockerill/

This stands out...

In November, the centre was verbally offered a new three-year deal. He and his agent were given several weeks to mull over the terms, and tell the club whether he wanted to sign.

to this...

I came back within their deadline and said we’d take it.

[JM2K6]

Indeed, it's a very different situation. (Edited to add: Scott got screwed there. I imagine if he'd been a one-club-man and a legend of the side who'd been there for 18 years, there would have been hell to pay.)

[Ymx]

On top of needing a new agent. He also needs a new PR manager/cheerleader. Jm is not selling me.

[Kawazaki]

Indeed, it's a very different situation.

Indeed, I suspect Brown got his offer in writing. And 10 months to sign it.

[JM2K6]

"I know, I'll keep this thread going by pretending the last page of discussion didn't happen"

[Openside]

On top of needing a new agent. He also needs a new PR manager/cheerleader. Jm is not selling me.

Maybe JM is his agent and his job is hanging by a thread

[JM2K6]

He got the contract he asked Quins for at Newcastle, you dunderheads

fark