UK Post Office Scandal

[Margin__Walker]

I remember being vaguely aware for this story at various points, but the press today for the overturned convictions got my interest.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56859357

Ended up listening to the BBC Podcast investigation into the affair that was produced last year that delved into the details and interviewed key players. Honestly found it a mind blowing listen. Just a horrendous abuse of power trapping honest people in a complete nightmare, some doing jail time and many more ending up with criminal convictions that came as a result of a wave of private prosecutions by the PO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000jhpl

Worth a listen if anyone is at a loose end and fancies being triggered.

[Saint]

Yeah, this has been a long running scandal that has only rarely been given the press attention it deserves

[Margin__Walker]

Yep, was amazed at the lack of high profile coverage considering the breadth of the issue. Over 700 prosecutions based on Horizon evidence FFS. Combined with the scandalous behaviour of the Post Office at every point along the way and right to the end with there obstruction of the legal process.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

https://www.postofficetrial.com/

For detailed reporting. I have been on their mailing list for a while.

[Margin__Walker]

Interesting, thanks. The more you look at it, the more that 2019 settlement figure looks like a huge win for the PO.

[Lobby]

Yep, was amazed at the lack of high profile coverage considering the breadth of the issue. Over 700 prosecutions based on Horizon evidence FFS. Combined with the scandalous behaviour of the Post Office at every point along the way and right to the end with there obstruction of the legal process.

And the PO continued to prosecute for years after they knew there were serious flaws with the software.

[Slick]

Yep, was amazed at the lack of high profile coverage considering the breadth of the issue. Over 700 prosecutions based on Horizon evidence FFS. Combined with the scandalous behaviour of the Post Office at every point along the way and right to the end with there obstruction of the legal process.

Private Eye have been on this for years and deserve great credit. Awful situation

[SaintK]

Yep, was amazed at the lack of high profile coverage considering the breadth of the issue. Over 700 prosecutions based on Horizon evidence FFS. Combined with the scandalous behaviour of the Post Office at every point along the way and right to the end with there obstruction of the legal process.

Private Eye have been on this for years and deserve great credit. Awful situation

Yes, the Eye have been on it for at least 15 years
Vennell's didn't even apologise until last year. What a good Christian she is, wrecking 100's of lives...........deliberately!

When the Rev Paula Vennells stepped down as chief executive of the Post Office in February 2019, she walked away nearly £5m richer.
As Vennells made for the exit, hundreds of loyal employees were still falsely branded thieves by the business that many of them had given their lives to.
Under the seven-year leadership of Vennells, an Anglican minister, the Post Office had relentlessly pursued subpostmasters and subpostmistresses for alleged offences such as theft and false accounting.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2 ... -vennells

[Margin__Walker]

Yep, it's outrageous. Should definitely be some post office employees serving time for this and it's not the post masters.

[Sandstorm]

I thought this was about the price of 2nd class stamps.

[Hal Jordan]

Yep, was amazed at the lack of high profile coverage considering the breadth of the issue. Over 700 prosecutions based on Horizon evidence FFS. Combined with the scandalous behaviour of the Post Office at every point along the way and right to the end with there obstruction of the legal process.

Private Eye have been on this for years and deserve great credit. Awful situation

Yes, the Eye have been on it for at least 15 years
Vennell's didn't even apologise until last year. What a good Christian she is, wrecking 100's of lives...........deliberately!

When the Rev Paula Vennells stepped down as chief executive of the Post Office in February 2019, she walked away nearly £5m richer.
As Vennells made for the exit, hundreds of loyal employees were still falsely branded thieves by the business that many of them had given their lives to.
Under the seven-year leadership of Vennells, an Anglican minister, the Post Office had relentlessly pursued subpostmasters and subpostmistresses for alleged offences such as theft and false accounting.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2 ... -vennells

If Jesus were around he'd be handing out some moneylender in the temple action.

[Margin__Walker]

Who knew all you needed was a prime time ITV drama to give this the attention it deserves and prod the government into speeding things up.

[petej]

Yep, was amazed at the lack of high profile coverage considering the breadth of the issue. Over 700 prosecutions based on Horizon evidence FFS. Combined with the scandalous behaviour of the Post Office at every point along the way and right to the end with there obstruction of the legal process.

Private Eye have been on this for years and deserve great credit. Awful situation

Yes, the Eye have been on it for at least 15 years
Vennell's didn't even apologise until last year. What a good Christian she is, wrecking 100's of lives...........deliberately!

When the Rev Paula Vennells stepped down as chief executive of the Post Office in February 2019, she walked away nearly £5m richer.
As Vennells made for the exit, hundreds of loyal employees were still falsely branded thieves by the business that many of them had given their lives to.
Under the seven-year leadership of Vennells, an Anglican minister, the Post Office had relentlessly pursued subpostmasters and subpostmistresses for alleged offences such as theft and false accounting.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2 ... -vennells

If religion had any real morality Vennells would be excommunicated. I fucking hate any assumption of people being good or bad due them being religious.

[Blackmac]

What's incredible was that people were getting convicted of fraud when it was quite obvious there had been no financial gain and the Post Office investigators didn't seem to be required by the court to prove there was.

A close friend who is a Fiscal in the Crown Office made the decision that the evidence presented by the Post Office didn't meet the higher threshold of corroboration required in Scotland and refused to prosecute the cases. He is mention briefly in the documentary.

[Margin__Walker]

What's incredible was that people were getting convicted of fraud when it was quite obvious there had been no financial gain and the Post Office investigators didn't seem to be required by the court to prove there was.

A close friend who is a Fiscal in the Crown Office made the decision that the evidence presented by the Post Office didn't meet the higher threshold of corroboration required in Scotland and refused to prosecute the cases. He is mention briefly in the documentary.

Yep. To a layman it's mind-blowing that the post office had the power to successfully bring these prosecutions based solely on evidence from an IT system. Without any evidence of criminal intent or financial gain. 100s of them.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

What's incredible was that people were getting convicted of fraud when it was quite obvious there had been no financial gain and the Post Office investigators didn't seem to be required by the court to prove there was.

A close friend who is a Fiscal in the Crown Office made the decision that the evidence presented by the Post Office didn't meet the higher threshold of corroboration required in Scotland and refused to prosecute the cases. He is mention briefly in the documentary.

Yep. To a layman it's mind-blowing that the post office had the power to successfully bring these prosecutions based solely on evidence from an IT system. Without any evidence of criminal intent or financial gain. 100s of them.

Also the post office trousered the supposed losses that bugs in the Horizon system had created. Not a lot of incentive to get to the bottom of any problems.

[dkm57]

I always prided myself on having reasonably wide vocabulary but I just can't find adequate words to describe how I feel about this disgusting scandal or the b'stards responsible.

The Rev Paula Vennels shouldn't just lose her CBE, she should be jailed and forced to cover as much of the compensation as possible alongside the shitbags who 'investigated' and prosecuted the sub postmasters. Successive governments have allowed this running sore to fester for so long.

[Blackmac]

What's incredible was that people were getting convicted of fraud when it was quite obvious there had been no financial gain and the Post Office investigators didn't seem to be required by the court to prove there was.

A close friend who is a Fiscal in the Crown Office made the decision that the evidence presented by the Post Office didn't meet the higher threshold of corroboration required in Scotland and refused to prosecute the cases. He is mention briefly in the documentary.

Yep. To a layman it's mind-blowing that the post office had the power to successfully bring these prosecutions based solely on evidence from an IT system. Without any evidence of criminal intent or financial gain. 100s of them.

I recall in the early 2000's, Post Office investigators started turning up at stations looking for CID assistance to interview suspects. A couple of lads who assisted were gobsmacked at the whole process and how slapdash the investigations and evidence were. Basically "the computer says it happened so you need to prove it didn't".

It's been on my radar ever since and I'm actually quite surprised how little general interest there seems to have been up to know.

[Blackmac]

Everyone should look up and sign the petition to have Vennell's CBE revoked.

[Ymx]

I’d never heard of this before.

People have committed suicide over false allegations/prosecutions.

Jesus

Post Office scandal victims now - 33 dead, four suicides, bankruptcy and pregnant mum jailed

Workers at the heart of the Post Office scandal featured on ITV's Mr Bates vs The Post Office have seen their lives deeply affected in the years since, from bankruptcy to imprisonment and justice still to be done

[Tichtheid]

If the dramatisation is anywhere near the truth, then the Post Office pursued the Subpostmasters aggressively and vindictively, all the while knowing that there was a problem with the Horizon systems, but refusing to look into it.

There must be grounds for someone being held to account for these prosecutions, Shirley?

[Tichtheid]

Everyone should look up and sign the petition to have Vennell's CBE revoked.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... of-her-cbe

[Margin__Walker]

What's incredible was that people were getting convicted of fraud when it was quite obvious there had been no financial gain and the Post Office investigators didn't seem to be required by the court to prove there was.

A close friend who is a Fiscal in the Crown Office made the decision that the evidence presented by the Post Office didn't meet the higher threshold of corroboration required in Scotland and refused to prosecute the cases. He is mention briefly in the documentary.

Yep. To a layman it's mind-blowing that the post office had the power to successfully bring these prosecutions based solely on evidence from an IT system. Without any evidence of criminal intent or financial gain. 100s of them.

I recall in the early 2000's, Post Office investigators started turning up at stations looking for CID assistance to interview suspects. A couple of lads who assisted were gobsmacked at the whole process and how slapdash the investigations and evidence were. Basically "the computer says it happened so you need to prove it didn't".

It's been on my radar ever since and I'm actually quite surprised how little general interest there seems to have been up to know.

It's really odd that it's taken this to get it the interest it deserves.

Most people are understandably triggered by miscarriages of justice. This is so far out there though with the sheer scale of it. They just ruined people for so long and in the face of mounting evidence that the system was the problem.

I just can't get my head around the lack of oversight for the process given that people were doing jail time as a result of some of these convictions.

It was all so fucking sinister.

[Ymx]

1.15m signatures.

Hopefully it’s legit and not just a Russian site collecting IDs.

[Blackmac]

I think one of the most sinister cases is the case against Michael Rudkin who was the union rep that inadvertently found out that Fujitsu had remote access. He and his wife found themselves over £40000 in error overnight.

[MungoMan]

What's incredible was that people were getting convicted of fraud when it was quite obvious there had been no financial gain and the Post Office investigators didn't seem to be required by the court to prove there was.

A close friend who is a Fiscal in the Crown Office made the decision that the evidence presented by the Post Office didn't meet the higher threshold of corroboration required in Scotland and refused to prosecute the cases. He is mention briefly in the documentary.

WhenI read about the court cases I wondered about the standard of the evidence presented by the prosecution and / or the willingness of the courts to take it at face value.

Your friend did very well and should be cloned!

[SaintK]

I’d never heard of this before.

People have committed suicide over false allegations/prosecutions.

Jesus

Post Office scandal victims now - 33 dead, four suicides, bankruptcy and pregnant mum jailed

Workers at the heart of the Post Office scandal featured on ITV's Mr Bates vs The Post Office have seen their lives deeply affected in the years since, from bankruptcy to imprisonment and justice still to be done

Bloody hell!! Where've you been for the past 15+ years?

[Blackmac]

I see the Post Office Investigator admitted that a number of his statements presented in support of cases weren't actually written by him. Jail time for whoever did write them.

[Margin__Walker]

He was a charmer.

Nice piece on the PO in full cover up mode using public money to intimidate and threaten all and sundry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

[ASMO]

I see the Post Office Investigator admitted that a number of his statements presented in support of cases weren't actually written by him. Jail time for whoever did write them.

He signed them, he owns them in my view, just because he was too fucking lazy to read them and too stupid to understand them is not anyone elses problem. He absolutely knew the software was fauly, you dont need to be a software expert to understand that. Cunt deserves to be prosecuted for perjury.

[Certain Navigator]

A blatant illustration of the principle that government is evil.

A significant number of UK PO workers and executives, as well as a few politicians, should spend the rest of their lives in jail, but, of course, won't. Any enquiry will find that it was all due to 'systems errors' that cannot be attributed to any individual, give or take the odd scapegoat.

[Paddington Bear]

I see the Post Office Investigator admitted that a number of his statements presented in support of cases weren't actually written by him. Jail time for whoever did write them.

He signed them, he owns them in my view, just because he was too fucking lazy to read them and too stupid to understand them is not anyone elses problem. He absolutely knew the software was fauly, you dont need to be a software expert to understand that. Cunt deserves to be prosecuted for perjury.

Fully agree. They even come with a nice big reminder of this on page 1.

The SRA and Bar Standards may finally have to get off their arse on this one, a fair few people should be losing their right to practise.

[Blackmac]

I see the Post Office Investigator admitted that a number of his statements presented in support of cases weren't actually written by him. Jail time for whoever did write them.

He signed them, he owns them in my view, just because he was too fucking lazy to read them and too stupid to understand them is not anyone elses problem. He absolutely knew the software was fauly, you dont need to be a software expert to understand that. Cunt deserves to be prosecuted for perjury.

Ahh, I never heard him say that. Now that mention that I recall that all English court statements need to be signed and corroborated which isn't actually the case in Scotland. Yeah, if that's the case he has no defence whatsoever. As you say he came across as an absolute cunt of a man. You would think if you have been accused of behaving like the mafia, you wouldn't actually turn up in court looking and acting like a mafia hitman.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I see the Post Office Investigator admitted that a number of his statements presented in support of cases weren't actually written by him. Jail time for whoever did write them.

He signed them, he owns them in my view, just because he was too fucking lazy to read them and too stupid to understand them is not anyone elses problem. He absolutely knew the software was fauly, you dont need to be a software expert to understand that. Cunt deserves to be prosecuted for perjury.

He'd need to show how he was coerced into signing them and by whom, and then only if the court accepts it was beyond his control could he dig himself out of that hole. But mainly yes, he's made the statements and now needs to held accountable for them

[dpedin]

Yesterday was a bit like the court cases against the camp guards from Auschwitz. He was a useful goon who was willing to do whatever his bosses told him without question - he was just following orders! Whilst this generates the headlines and everyone feels better for seeing him cut to pieces by a very clever KC in the Inquiry he is a just a not very clever foot soldier. The Inquiry and the courts need to get to the ones who masterminded this debacle and deal with them accordingly. However history tells us that other factors might get in the way of this not least the political embarrassment to the current Gov and the links between Fujitsu, the Conservative Party and individual ministers. As much as it frustrates me to hell there will be lots of bluster and promises made and little will be delivered until something else hits the headlines - bombing the rebels in Yemen - and this will all be forgotten about again. Anyone remember Grenfell, contaminated blood scandal, etc?

[SaintK]

Worth a read. Looking forward to hearing what van den Bogerd and Davies have to say at the enquiry under oath!!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

[inactionman]

Yesterday was a bit like the court cases against the camp guards from Auschwitz. He was a useful goon who was willing to do whatever his bosses told him without question - he was just following orders! Whilst this generates the headlines and everyone feels better for seeing him cut to pieces by a very clever KC in the Inquiry he is a just a not very clever foot soldier. The Inquiry and the courts need to get to the ones who masterminded this debacle and deal with them accordingly. However history tells us that other factors might get in the way of this not least the political embarrassment to the current Gov and the links between Fujitsu, the Conservative Party and individual ministers. As much as it frustrates me to hell there will be lots of bluster and promises made and little will be delivered until something else hits the headlines - bombing the rebels in Yemen - and this will all be forgotten about again. Anyone remember Grenfell, contaminated blood scandal, etc?

Agreed. A few fall guys will get it in the neck (although in this case the fall guys do deserve to get it in the neck), the ex-dame will just crack on earnings millions.

My one solace is that the poor sods who bore the brunt of this utter travesty will at least get some recompense and recognition of the wrong, but even that is tempered by the fact some of the poor sods won't be here to see it.

It's a bit like the Ofsted inspections- how do you sleep at night knowing your actions drove someone to suicide?

[fishfoodie]

Yesterday was a bit like the court cases against the camp guards from Auschwitz. He was a useful goon who was willing to do whatever his bosses told him without question - he was just following orders! Whilst this generates the headlines and everyone feels better for seeing him cut to pieces by a very clever KC in the Inquiry he is a just a not very clever foot soldier. The Inquiry and the courts need to get to the ones who masterminded this debacle and deal with them accordingly. However history tells us that other factors might get in the way of this not least the political embarrassment to the current Gov and the links between Fujitsu, the Conservative Party and individual ministers. As much as it frustrates me to hell there will be lots of bluster and promises made and little will be delivered until something else hits the headlines - bombing the rebels in Yemen - and this will all be forgotten about again. Anyone remember Grenfell, contaminated blood scandal, etc?

Agreed. A few fall guys will get it in the neck (although in this case the fall guys do deserve to get it in the neck), the ex-dame will just crack on earnings millions.

My one solace is that the poor sods who bore the brunt of this utter travesty will at least get some recompense and recognition of the wrong, but even that is tempered by the fact some of the poor sods won't be here to see it.

It's a bit like the Ofsted inspections- how do you sleep at night knowing your actions drove someone to suicide?

Sky have a decent article on the immense tax implications for the Post Office, or maybe I should say the tax payers, because I think they're the ones who'll ultimately end up picking up the tab !

The Post Office could be facing a £100m bill and insolvency after claiming a tax break for compensation payments to sub-postmasters, a leading expert has told Sky News.

Dan Neidle, the head of non-profit organisation Tax Policy Associates, said the Post Office had wrongly claimed relief on the £934m damages provision.

The tax lawyer argued such deductions could not be made for "unlawful" activities.

Mr Neidle also suggested the amount of tax owed by the Post Office could grow further and called for the clawback of bonuses to senior Post Office managers.
...

Mr Neidle said: "There was a mysterious disclosure in this year's accounts saying they were discussing something with HMRC and we dug through the accounts and we found that they'd created a provision in the accounts for compensation to postmasters of £934m.

"They then claimed a tax deduction for the £934m.

"Now you can't do that.

"You can claim a tax deduction for things that you do in the course of your trade, your expenses of your normal business.

"But you can't claim a tax deduction for things which are unlawful, illegal or outside the trade, like persecuting 4,000 postmasters.

....

https://news.sky.com/story/post-office- ... s-13047225

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I don't know what's in the Sky News article, it might even be news if they haven't been careful. But it's interesting that loss wasn't reflected seemingly reflected when calculating bonuses for the senior bosses.

It's a bit like Trump declaring high values when it comes to asking for loans and low values when it comes to taxes, they've twice wangled the same thing seemingly in ways they shouldn't have and both that work to their advantage, providing no one finds out. Should the charge prove true anyway

[fishfoodie]

I don't know what's in the Sky News article, it might even be news if they haven't been careful. But it's interesting that loss wasn't reflected seemingly reflected when calculating bonuses for the senior bosses.

It's a bit like Trump declaring high values when it comes to asking for loans and low values when it comes to taxes, they've twice wangled the same thing seemingly in ways they shouldn't have and both that work to their advantage, providing no one finds out. Should the charge prove true anyway

It's more about whether they were trying to just right off a liability that was just down to business as usual, versus one that was down to criminal negligence on their part.

You can right off shit that happens that you had no control over, but the tax man doesn't look kindly on you trying to right off debts that only exist because you tried committing criminal actions & got caught