NPR

Its well known that the US is trying to get out of the middle east and wants to move its foreign policy focus to China/Asia.

Obviously that transition is going to be more complicated after this weeks events in Israel but what really complicates matters is the optics. The US likes to project an image of being an advocate of democracy, rule of law and rules based order and I don't see how they can give $3 billion to Israel every year and keep up the pretence of being the good guys.

These are Derek Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd's neck type of optics and quite a few analysts have drawn parallels with the way Israel treats Palestinians and how blacks get treated by American police officers.

To me Israel looks like a complete liability to the US, I can't think of how the US benefits from close ties with Israel let alone the man in the street. Will there come a point where the US cuts ties or is Israel too important to American foreign policy and if the latter why?

Marylandolorian wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:39 pm It’s also illegal to criticize Israel in some states.

That's nuts, thanks for sharing. After reading this I just googled "where in the US is it illegal to criticize israel?" and this came up:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/04/23/us- ... businesses

Companies that want to boycott Israel over human rights abuses are subject to legislative pressure that prevents them for doing so. The case of airbnb is ludicrous:

In November 2018, the global tourism company Airbnb announced it would stop listing properties in settlements, as part of a new policy to bar listings that, among other things, contribute to “existing human suffering.” The day after it announced its decision, Israeli strategic affairs minister Gilad Erdan wrote to the governors of Illinois, New York, Florida, Missouri, and California, encouraging them to take action “in relation to commercial dealings” with Airbnb. After several states took action against Airbnb, it changed course and said it would not remove settlement listings from its platform.

This is what I am alluding to in the OP, you can't profess to believe in democracy and rule of law and also support these types of coercive, threatening actions from Israel.

They were the driving force behind the creation of the state of Israel. That, and as someone has mentioned, the sheer number of influential Jews in the USA means that, even with no strategic value, the political value is immense.

Enzedder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:58 am They were the driving force behind the creation of the state of Israel. That, and as someone has mentioned, the sheer number of influential Jews in the USA means that, even with no strategic value, the political value is immense.

Yes. This plus the economic value since many of US financial institutions are owned or controlled by jews.

rich Israelis/jews fund Israel , mind you money that should be going to the people of the US for medicare and infrastructure is going to Israel, you know Israel was the first country to get all its citizens vaccinated agaisnt covid whereas the US which funded them have barely been in the same time range gotten 5% of Americans vaccinated..to make things worse, Israel blocked the vaccines from going to the Palestinians as well an just when US announced they are leaving the middle east, somehow magically them evil "hamas" attacked poor defenseless Israel and now the US might be forced to keep thei forces there....... i sometimes feel like hitler was onto something ..


will give you the benefit of the doubt this time but please tread carefully

Erm

Slick wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:42 amErm

Quite.

Broaching this topic is a minefield, with a high propensity towards degeneration into mud slinging and anti-Semitic accusations.

Very difficult for Biden to respond, given the fractured nature of the American electorate.

Rinkals wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:50 am

Slick wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:42 amErm

Quite.

Broaching this topic is a minefield, with a high propensity towards degeneration into mud slinging and anti-Semitic accusations.

Very difficult for Biden to respond, given the fractured nature of the American electorate.

Indeed. The two parties could agree to step back from Israel but somehow that seems unlikely. Isn't there some evangelical religious end of days stuff tied into it as well?

The 3rd temple needs to be built. Israel needs to be both sides of the Jordan too I believe.

But I think mostly it's about having an ally in the middle east, and a launchpad to work from there if needed. Israel is almost a captive ally in some ways.

stemoc

Slightly more than Oops Oops, mate.

Jesus comets. You’ve been reading some pretty tinfoil hat material you’ve been indoctrinated in to.

Kiwias wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:04 am stemoc

Slightly more than Oops Oops, mate.

Well, yes. That’s the worst I’ve seen on here and I hope it’s not swept under the carpet

Sssssssswing........."FORE"......

Have 2 weeks off stemoc.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Israel has been a useful stalking horse for USA in the region, especially with Iran

Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.
Israel is backing itself further and further into a corner. They don't seem to have any answer or realistic plan for the future.

Hamas are playing a great game shooting 300 dollar rockets and costing the Israelis 50k to shoot each one down.

32 Palestinian children dead is also terrible optics for Israel. My Muslim mates are posting pictures of babies burned to ashes and preschoolers with their brains blown out.

Hard to have any sympathy for Israel once you've seen those pictures. And you know that they are fully aware that airstrikes will result in such slaughter

Ah, I wondered where and what caused the toys to be thrown out of the pram. Tsk, his stream was one of the best I've ever had a friend of mine use.

Raggs wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:53 am Israel is almost a captive ally in some ways.

That's an interesting angle. I wonder if in some ways you could probably think of it in terms of being an alliance that both parties are stuck in for sentimental reasons but that does not in practice work. Like a dysfunctional marriage.

A more independent US could probably play a more consructive role in dealing with Israel/Palestine and the religious fundamentalists in both Israel and the US would not be able to reinforce one anothers rabidness.

FalseBayFC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:47 pm Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.

A few weeks before this kicked off I was reading up on Netanyahu's difficulties in forming a govt. after the recent election. Once this kicked off I cynically thought that this is the type of aggressive military action designed to activate more support for him because even some of the centrist/moderate anti Netanyahu parties are zionist.

Yesh Atid seem like a sensible party that represents the secular, liberal middle class but it looks like every other party is to the right of them.

FalseBayFC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:47 pm Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.
Israel is backing itself further and further into a corner. They don't seem to have any answer or realistic plan for the future.

Hamas are playing a great game shooting 300 dollar rockets and costing the Israelis 50k to shoot each one down.

32 Palestinian children dead is also terrible optics for Israel. My Muslim mates are posting pictures of babies burned to ashes and preschoolers with their brains blown out.

Hard to have any sympathy for Israel once you've seen those pictures. And you know that they are fully aware that airstrikes will result in such slaughter

What's the latest tally on Palestinians killed by Hamas vs Israelis killed by Hamas? Last I heard they'd killed more of their own than of those of their sworn enemy.

notfatcat wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:39 pm

FalseBayFC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:47 pm Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.
Israel is backing itself further and further into a corner. They don't seem to have any answer or realistic plan for the future.

Hamas are playing a great game shooting 300 dollar rockets and costing the Israelis 50k to shoot each one down.

32 Palestinian children dead is also terrible optics for Israel. My Muslim mates are posting pictures of babies burned to ashes and preschoolers with their brains blown out.

Hard to have any sympathy for Israel once you've seen those pictures. And you know that they are fully aware that airstrikes will result in such slaughter

What's the latest tally on Palestinians killed by Hamas vs Israelis killed by Hamas? Last I heard they'd killed more of their own than of those of their sworn enemy.

According to Israeli sources, there have been 2,800 rocket attacks from Gaza in the current offensive. So far there have been ten Israeli civilian casualties, eight as a direct result of rocket fire. Israel says it does not have an accurate estimate of how many Palestinians have been killed by Hamas rockets that have fallen short of their targets, but claim that at least 20 have been killed in this way.

Hamas does not provide any figures for the number of Palestinians killed by its own rockets.

A very good book if anyone wants to read about it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israe ... ign_Policy

FalseBayFC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:47 pm Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.
Israel is backing itself further and further into a corner. They don't seem to have any answer or realistic plan for the future.

Hamas are playing a great game shooting 300 dollar rockets and costing the Israelis 50k to shoot each one down.

32 Palestinian children dead is also terrible optics for Israel. My Muslim mates are posting pictures of babies burned to ashes and preschoolers with their brains blown out.

Hard to have any sympathy for Israel once you've seen those pictures. And you know that they are fully aware that airstrikes will result in such slaughter

I don't think it requires any tin foil to wonder if Netanyahu has deliberately manufactured an uprising in order to generate electoral support in view of the collapse of his coalition and the likelihood of more elections.

I confess that I haven't been following this all that closely so I'm not really sure if this started with rocket attacks from Gaza or whether the measures to evict Palestinians in favour of Israeli settlers provided the spark, but Netanyahu does have form. Raggs can probably confirm or disabuse.

Rinkals wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:13 am

FalseBayFC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:47 pm Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.
Israel is backing itself further and further into a corner. They don't seem to have any answer or realistic plan for the future.

Hamas are playing a great game shooting 300 dollar rockets and costing the Israelis 50k to shoot each one down.

32 Palestinian children dead is also terrible optics for Israel. My Muslim mates are posting pictures of babies burned to ashes and preschoolers with their brains blown out.

Hard to have any sympathy for Israel once you've seen those pictures. And you know that they are fully aware that airstrikes will result in such slaughter

I don't think it requires any tin foil to wonder if Netanyahu has deliberately manufactured an uprising in order to generate electoral support in view of the collapse of his coalition and the likelihood of more elections.

I confess that I haven't been following this all that closely so I'm not really sure if this started with rocket attacks from Gaza or whether the measures to evict Palestinians in favour of Israeli settlers provided the spark, but Netanyahu does have form. Raggs can probably confirm or disabuse.

Israel are going to face the same problem that South Africa did in the 70's and 80's. Eventually their Western backers will find it becomes too much of a hot potato with their domestic electorate. Israel is well on its way to becoming a pariah state. Hamas recognises this and just needs to keep on prodding.

FalseBayFC wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:30 am

Rinkals wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:13 am

FalseBayFC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:47 pm Netanyahu makes Trump look like JFK. The guy is a cross between a brown shirt and a Mafia don.
Israel is backing itself further and further into a corner. They don't seem to have any answer or realistic plan for the future.

Hamas are playing a great game shooting 300 dollar rockets and costing the Israelis 50k to shoot each one down.

32 Palestinian children dead is also terrible optics for Israel. My Muslim mates are posting pictures of babies burned to ashes and preschoolers with their brains blown out.

Hard to have any sympathy for Israel once you've seen those pictures. And you know that they are fully aware that airstrikes will result in such slaughter

I don't think it requires any tin foil to wonder if Netanyahu has deliberately manufactured an uprising in order to generate electoral support in view of the collapse of his coalition and the likelihood of more elections.

I confess that I haven't been following this all that closely so I'm not really sure if this started with rocket attacks from Gaza or whether the measures to evict Palestinians in favour of Israeli settlers provided the spark, but Netanyahu does have form. Raggs can probably confirm or disabuse.

Israel are going to face the same problem that South Africa did in the 70's and 80's. Eventually their Western backers will find it becomes too much of a hot potato with their domestic electorate. Israel is well on its way to becoming a pariah state. Hamas recognises this and just needs to keep on prodding.

The West have to get over their “every Arab is a terrorist“ viewpoint before they will turn their back on Israel. That will take some time.

Hugo wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:07 pm
Obviously that transition is going to be more complicated after this weeks events in Israel but what really complicates matters is the optics. The US likes to project an image of being an advocate of democracy, rule of law and rules based order and I don't see how they can give $3 billion to Israel every year and keep up the pretence of being the good guys.

Why can't you see that?

Israel is the most democratic country in the Middle East.

The naivety of a 'peaceful solution' is incredible. The Jews would be massacred within a few weeks by the Arabs. Israel at least has some restraint.

Lemoentjie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:12 am

Hugo wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:07 pm
Obviously that transition is going to be more complicated after this weeks events in Israel but what really complicates matters is the optics. The US likes to project an image of being an advocate of democracy, rule of law and rules based order and I don't see how they can give $3 billion to Israel every year and keep up the pretence of being the good guys.

Why can't you see that?

Israel is the most democratic country in the Middle East.

The naivety of a 'peaceful solution' is incredible. The Jews would be massacred within a few weeks by the Arabs. Israel at least has some restraint.

It's recognised by a number of organisation as apartheid state. It's illegally occupying the west bank expropriating residents to place colonies in said illegally occupied land. (UN resolution galore).

Democratic in what way ? all the elected leaders are ex-generals who would stand in the Hague tribunal with Milosevic and Karadjic if the US was not backing them.

laurent wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:01 pm It's recognised by a number of organisation as apartheid state. It's illegally occupying the west bank expropriating residents to place colonies in said illegally occupied land. (UN resolution galore).

Democratic in what way ? all the elected leaders are ex-generals who would stand in the Hague tribunal with Milosevic and Karadjic if the US was not backing them.

Israel is a democracy. All Israeli citizens have a right to vote. You don't know what Apartheid is, if you think Israel is Apartheid.

Israel has a democracy index score of 76 (higher than many countries that definitely aren't apartheid states).

Lemoentjie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:13 pm

laurent wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:01 pm It's recognised by a number of organisation as apartheid state. It's illegally occupying the west bank expropriating residents to place colonies in said illegally occupied land. (UN resolution galore).

Democratic in what way ? all the elected leaders are ex-generals who would stand in the Hague tribunal with Milosevic and Karadjic if the US was not backing them.

Israel is a democracy. All Israeli citizens have a right to vote. You don't know what Apartheid is, if you think Israel is Apartheid.

Israel has a democracy index score of 76 (higher than many countries that definitely aren't apartheid states).

Voting rights are obviously a key component of democracies but so too are human rights and equal treatment under the law.

Jerusalem epitomises the problem. Israel claims the city as its “eternal and undivided capital”. But its inhabitants are irrevocably split. The eastern part of the city, although captured by Israel in 1967, remains largely Palestinian. The Oslo accords of 1993 left the city’s status to be settled in a permanent peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. But Israel has built a wall separating Jerusalem from the Palestinian hinterland. It seeks to strengthen its claim to the whole city by ringing it with new Jewish homes and squeezing Palestinians out. Though they make up 38% of Jerusalem’s population, most local Palestinians are not citizens but mere “residents”, granted access to health care and social security, but not the same rights as Jews.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/ ... -palestine

Lemoentjie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:13 pm

laurent wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:01 pm It's recognised by a number of organisation as apartheid state. It's illegally occupying the west bank expropriating residents to place colonies in said illegally occupied land. (UN resolution galore).

Democratic in what way ? all the elected leaders are ex-generals who would stand in the Hague tribunal with Milosevic and Karadjic if the US was not backing them.

Israel is a democracy. All Israeli citizens have a right to vote. You don't know what Apartheid is, if you think Israel is Apartheid.

Israel has a democracy index score of 76 (higher than many countries that definitely aren't apartheid states).

You're fucking clueless boet.

The late professor Edward Saeed described the Palestinians as the victims of the victims. They have been let down by the cowardice of their fellow Arabs, the hypocrisy of the West and idiotic leaders. All these variables have emboldened the likes of Sharon and Yahoo to commit crimes with impunity.

Hugo wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:52 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:13 pm

laurent wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:01 pm It's recognised by a number of organisation as apartheid state. It's illegally occupying the west bank expropriating residents to place colonies in said illegally occupied land. (UN resolution galore).

Democratic in what way ? all the elected leaders are ex-generals who would stand in the Hague tribunal with Milosevic and Karadjic if the US was not backing them.

Israel is a democracy. All Israeli citizens have a right to vote. You don't know what Apartheid is, if you think Israel is Apartheid.

Israel has a democracy index score of 76 (higher than many countries that definitely aren't apartheid states).

Voting rights are obviously a key component of democracies but so too are human rights and equal treatment under the law.

Jerusalem epitomises the problem. Israel claims the city as its “eternal and undivided capital”. But its inhabitants are irrevocably split. The eastern part of the city, although captured by Israel in 1967, remains largely Palestinian. The Oslo accords of 1993 left the city’s status to be settled in a permanent peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. But Israel has built a wall separating Jerusalem from the Palestinian hinterland. It seeks to strengthen its claim to the whole city by ringing it with new Jewish homes and squeezing Palestinians out. Though they make up 38% of Jerusalem’s population, most local Palestinians are not citizens but mere “residents”, granted access to health care and social security, but not the same rights as Jews.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/ ... -palestine

I'm not arguing that Israel is a good country. It has an expansionist colonial policy. But I understood your original post to claim that it wasn't a democracy, which in my opinion (and opinion of most freedom rankings) isn't true. Therefore it's not difficult to understand why some countries may say it's a good example of democracy in the Middle East.

The UK in 1920s was a democracy, despite having subjects who couldn't vote.

Lemoentjie wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 7:51 am

I'm not arguing that Israel is a good country. It has an expansionist colonial policy. But I understood your original post to claim that it wasn't a democracy, which in my opinion (and opinion of most freedom rankings) isn't true. Therefore it's not difficult to understand why some countries may say it's a good example of democracy in the Middle East.

The UK in 1920s was a democracy, despite having subjects who couldn't vote.

But Palestinians don't vote in the Israel general elections do they?

The US is stuck with modern Israel to an extent. It supported the State's creation, which had a clear and huge moral imperative behind it and it kept the state viable when it was an underdog surrounded by larger aggressive states.
Now it's a nuclear armed state aware that there are few international repercussions to using force in civilian areas. The key rubric - that it's neighbours would like nothing more to wipe the State and all it's Jewish people off the face of the earth hasn't changed, Israel's willingness to put everything on the line to stop that hasn't changed and so I suppose the US sees it as better to keep them inside the tent pissing out than the other way around. Israel is too powerful and self-sufficient to keep in line, but clearly isn't a direct threat to the West's own security. Funny situation.

The other element I would guess exists is (though reduced after Bibi and Obama's run ins) is a deep tie between officials in the two states who will likely know each other personally.

Grandpa wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:00 am

Lemoentjie wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 7:51 am

I'm not arguing that Israel is a good country. It has an expansionist colonial policy. But I understood your original post to claim that it wasn't a democracy, which in my opinion (and opinion of most freedom rankings) isn't true. Therefore it's not difficult to understand why some countries may say it's a good example of democracy in the Middle East.

The UK in 1920s was a democracy, despite having subjects who couldn't vote.

But Palestinians don't vote in the Israel general elections do they?

I'm sure there are people who consider themselves Palestinian, whilst also being a citizen of Israel, and they'll get to vote. But your main point is obviously that foreign nationals, even if residents of a country, do not have a vote in that country. Which shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone, and I'd not call it undemocratic either.

Raggs wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:53 am

Grandpa wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:00 am

Lemoentjie wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 7:51 am

I'm not arguing that Israel is a good country. It has an expansionist colonial policy. But I understood your original post to claim that it wasn't a democracy, which in my opinion (and opinion of most freedom rankings) isn't true. Therefore it's not difficult to understand why some countries may say it's a good example of democracy in the Middle East.

The UK in 1920s was a democracy, despite having subjects who couldn't vote.

But Palestinians don't vote in the Israel general elections do they?

I'm sure there are people who consider themselves Palestinian, whilst also being a citizen of Israel, and they'll get to vote. But your main point is obviously that foreign nationals, even if residents of a country, do not have a vote in that country. Which shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone, and I'd not call it undemocratic either.

That's largely correct. Arab Israeli citizens vote in the elections and have the same rights as Jewish Israeli citizens (indeed, one of the reasons Netanyahu has been unable to form a government since the last elections earlier this year was because he was unable to persuade the largest Arab Israeli party to join his coalition government). Palestinians living in the occupied territories were granted 'residency' after the 1967 war. They can apply for Israeli citizenship, which would give them voting rights, but most have not done so. Although the numbers applying for full citizenship have been increasing in recent years, only about a third of applications are granted, and it remains a challenging and very slow process. It is also clear that many want to be citizens of a separate Palestinian state, rather than Israel, so would not apply, even if the process was easier.

The Gaza strip is under the administrative control of Hamas, and its residents do not have a vote in Israel's elections. The last elections in Gaza were held in 2006, since when both Presidential and Legislative Council elections have been suspended indefinitely. There was another attempt to hold elections this year, which were scheduled to take place on 22 May 2021, but on 29 April, the Palestinian President, Mahmood Abbas, decided to cancel the scheduled elections, which have again been deferred for an indefinite period.

Lobby wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:20 am That's largely correct. Arab Israeli citizens vote in the elections and have the same rights as Jewish Israeli citizens (indeed, one of the reasons Netanyahu has been unable to form a government since the last elections earlier this year was because he was unable to persuade the largest Arab Israeli party to join his coalition government).

Genuine question - I heard the prospect of this touted in April but was there any realistic chance that they would have joined the pro Netanyahu coalition? I was under the impression that the small, ultra conservative parties who are part of Netanyahu's coalition considered it beyond the pale.

assfly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:09 am A very good book if anyone wants to read about it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israe ... ign_Policy

Thanks for the recommendation, just ordered.

First I've read about Israeli police skunk trucks. They spray East Jerusalem Arab businesses and neighborhoods with putrid water. Madness. Collective punishment is just going to spawn a new generation of radicals.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-identity

Hugo wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:13 pm Thanks for the recommendation, just ordered.

No worries. Anything by Stephen Walt is worth reading, which I did a lot of at university. If you enjoy that book, then I'd also recommend Taming American Power which compliments it nicely from a broader point of view.

Thought ultimately American Christians all believe in this shite..and this is why they 100% support Israel.

Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian restorationism.[1][2]

"Memorandum to Protestant Monarchs of Europe for the restoration of the Jews to Palestine", published in the Colonial Times, in 1841

Christian advocacy in support of the restoration of the Jews grew after the Protestant Reformation and has its roots in seventeenth century England.[3] Contemporary Israeli historian Anita Shapira suggests that evangelical Christian Zionists in England of the 1840s "passed this notion on to Jewish circles",[4] while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was widely regarded with hostility by British Jews.[5]

Some Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.[3][6] The idea has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling biblical prophecy

Love lazy types copying and pasting wiki and not even bothered deleting the citation marks.

Uncle fester wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:28 pm Love lazy types copying and pasting wiki and not even bothered deleting the citation marks.

Lazy? It's Refry ffs. Never worked a day in his life.