Your question deserves a well-thought out answer so I too ask you for a few days so I can clarify my thoughts, as similar to Harvey, my relationship with my self-help group has evolved in the 19+ years I have been a member.Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:36 pmIt’s a nice chunk of your life, you’ve elected this path. So well deserved.
May I ask the evolved nature of your relationship with AA?
Coming from my place - CBT for a year and then continued all by myself (and you lot of course). So I find it amazing to devote one’s life and attention to it for such a long time. I mean there’s giving back and then there’s what you and kiwias do …,
Quitting the bottle
Well into my 19th year of sobriety and I still attend the weekly meetings of my support group. Given how rarely I ever feel any pull from the demon drink, I often consider how long I need to continue to attend meetings.
In the first several years, I attended as many meetings as possible, sometimes 3~4 a week, as staying sober was the absolute priority in my life, considering how much damage I had done to the people I love and my desire somehow to make amends to them with the hope that I could repair these relationships. As I became more stable in my sobriety, the frequency of meetings dropped to once a week, 7PM Thursday.
When I broke my ankle several years ago and was hobbling around on crutches, making it impossible to drive, I missed over a month of meetings and was aware of two things: one, that I started to feel less stable and more vulnerable to temptation, and two, that my wife was clearly more nervous about the possibility (however small that may have been) of my drinking again.
I felt a strong sense of relief when I was back in my weekly meetings so have continued attending for those two reasons and one other -- the concept of pay forward. Older members were there for me when I was really struggling in my early days and I feel a sense of obligation to provide the same for new members.
Two hours a week doesn't feel to me to be an excessive amount of time given the very definite benefits achieved from attending.
In the first several years, I attended as many meetings as possible, sometimes 3~4 a week, as staying sober was the absolute priority in my life, considering how much damage I had done to the people I love and my desire somehow to make amends to them with the hope that I could repair these relationships. As I became more stable in my sobriety, the frequency of meetings dropped to once a week, 7PM Thursday.
When I broke my ankle several years ago and was hobbling around on crutches, making it impossible to drive, I missed over a month of meetings and was aware of two things: one, that I started to feel less stable and more vulnerable to temptation, and two, that my wife was clearly more nervous about the possibility (however small that may have been) of my drinking again.
I felt a strong sense of relief when I was back in my weekly meetings so have continued attending for those two reasons and one other -- the concept of pay forward. Older members were there for me when I was really struggling in my early days and I feel a sense of obligation to provide the same for new members.
Two hours a week doesn't feel to me to be an excessive amount of time given the very definite benefits achieved from attending.
I mean the give back element I do understand, but for a few years, not a lifetime. However, I think I understand that it’s important for you as it was such a terrible thing, and you are wanting to turn a bad experience in to a positive life thing. It now defines you in part.
So, you felt a little wobbly? Even after well over a decade of attending. Do you think it was like you’d stopped taking medication?
So, you felt a little wobbly? Even after well over a decade of attending. Do you think it was like you’d stopped taking medication?
Living a decent life is how I want to be defined and staying sober is my method to achieve that. There is no pressure from my wife or my son for me to continue attending but I am very aware that my continued attendance is a genuine comfort to them.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:02 am I mean the give back element I do understand, but for a few years, not a lifetime. However, I think I understand that it’s important for you as it was such a terrible thing, and you are wanting to turn a bad experience in to a positive life thing. It now defines you in part.
So, you felt a little wobbly? Even after well over a decade of attending. Do you think it was like you’d stopped taking medication?
I have never taken any medication strong enough to trigger a reaction on stopping taking it but my reaction is how I imagine that to feel like.
I suspect that if I were to stop attending now, I would not have a similar reaction because of the internal change I underwent on the birth of my first grandchild, but I enjoy offering comfort to those I hurt and offering support/encouragement to new members.
Jesus, so sorry to hear that. And sorry to those she left behind. Was she a parent do you mind if I ask?
I reckon I was strongly heading that way with my trajectory. My daughter was a big factor for me.
Fortunately no kids. She and her husband were pissheads for ever. He quit a few years ago, but she never escaped her demons.
He’s a mess. Hopefully he doesn’t go back on the piss again.
-
And 1 guest
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:51 pm
That was the case with my wife, at the age of 54. In the end she died in her sleep in our bed from a massive internal bleed.
There's a documentary on YouTube called rain in my heart that shows what alcohol can do to a person
Condolences, mate. I'll have a gander at the Youtube documentary.And 1 guest wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:19 amThat was the case with my wife, at the age of 54. In the end she died in her sleep in our bed from a massive internal bleed.
There's a documentary on YouTube called rain in my heart that shows what alcohol can do to a person
Condolences and I'll look at that Youtube too..Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:21 amCondolences, mate. I'll have a gander at the Youtube documentary.And 1 guest wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:19 amThat was the case with my wife, at the age of 54. In the end she died in her sleep in our bed from a massive internal bleed.
There's a documentary on YouTube called rain in my heart that shows what alcohol can do to a person
-
And 1 guest
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:51 pm
The people it documents are obviously at the end stage of the consequences of the addiction, and I hope that nobody on this thread should have to go through it. Indeed post after post reaffirms that this level of physical and mental deterioration is by no means inevitable.
For me personally it provokes echoes of what my wife went through, and, selfishly, what she put me through. I take solace from the knowledge that my efforts prolonged her life beyond where she would have been without me.
Ultimately, I believe the addiction takes different paths with different people, and that the help and support available from family, friends or institutions will only work for an individual willing and able to take the first steps themselves.
Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:36 pmIt’s a nice chunk of your life, you’ve elected this path. So well deserved.
May I ask the evolved nature of your relationship with AA?
Coming from my place - CBT for a year and then continued all by myself (and you lot of course). So I find it amazing to devote one’s life and attention to it for such a long time. I mean there’s giving back and then there’s what you and kiwias do …,
Sorry for the delayed response to this question, I don’t frequent this forum often and actually forgot.
My relationship with AA I don’t believe I can adequately describe on here in a few paragraphs but I will give it a shot in a nutshell.
To give some context I need to touch on my history with alcohol and drugs to help frame it.
I was in a world of trouble from the age of 14 with drugs and drink, my drinking quickly became something I couldn’t control once I started and I found that amphetamines solved that problem and allowed me to drink more and for longer, a lot longer. I’m not going to get into that, but I got in way over my head in that world and by 22 years of age had experienced a lifetime of trouble, finding myself in rehab with nothing to show for the last 6-7 years of my life. I cleaned myself up left Auckland and moved to the other end of the country. I knew I needed to stay away from drugs and that lifestyle but I didn’t think I was alcoholic so naturally I drank. The next 6 years were a slow-motion train wreck, I built a pretty good life for myself then proceeded to destroy it through my drinking. Short story is I have an estranged family (two adult children and an extremely resentful ex in the UK), lost property, some very good jobs and my drinking progressed to living by myself drinking whiskey to black out daily and being unable to stop.
So between the age of 15-29 I had effectively ruined my life twice, spent time in rehab, prison (not long) and as an outpatient at a mental health facility for depression & anxiety.
I ended up coming out of blackout one night in hospital after putting my head through the windshield of my car (for the second time), an extremely angry nurse told me I needed to go to AA. Funnily enough Id been to AA in rehab but even through all this I didn’t think I was alcoholic.
I went to AA and hated it, hated everything about it but most of all I hated the way I felt sober. What changed all that for me was a lady noticing me having a panic attack at a meeting one night, followed me outside when I went for a smoke, which I couldn’t smoke because I was shaking so much. All I wanted more than anything else in the world at that moment was to drink. She gave me some CDs and told me to listen when I got a chance.
I put one on on the way home and the guy was funny and engaging so I stopped the car and listened to him talk for the next hour which absolutely changed my life. I didn’t have enough awareness or understanding of my situation, let alone words to begin to articulate my relationship with alcohol, and the impact it had on my perception and experience of the world. But as that guy talked about his experience with alcoholism every word made perfect sense to me. It was like he knew me better than I knew me. He gave me words to describe exactly what I had been thinking, feeling, how I drank and how that was all related and progressively got worse as the years went by.
My relationship with AA changed instantly, it went from meaningless information that didn’t apply to me to meaningful information that did. I moved from closed minded to open minded and became willing to ask someone for help and accept it.
So, long story to get to where I can answer your question and I apologise for that but I feel you wouldn’t understand the answer without it.
My relationship with AA was initially one of feeling like I found my place in a world I never felt at home in and was largely driven by fear of going back to how I was. I had almost no sense of self and it became a large part of my identity for a while, I have no problem saying that now.
As the years went by I pieced my life back together and at a certain point things started improving really fast. Things are great now and the drinking and all the rest of it seems a lifetime ago.
My relationship with AA today is different, I’m not fearful Il drink at all, its not about that. I have a lot of friends in AA, my closest friends today are some of the people who helped me 15 years ago, its part of the community for me like a club and I get to contribute to the community by being of service to and in the general service structure of AA in the same way other people contribute to the community in a variety of other ways.
But I do keep my home life and AA life separate. My wife has never seen me drink and while she appreciates how important AA is to me she really doesn’t understand.
AA can be hard work, there are some crazy people there and it can be a tough place to navigate at times but there are few places I feel as free to be myself or as useful as in AA.
Last edited by Harveys on Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harvey
Wow. Just WOW. That was a stunning story, clearly from deep in your heart, and I applaud you for your honesty and courage.
One thing I always find hilarious about my group (and AA too from the few meetings I have attended when on holiday in NZ) is that there is always someone whose story seems far worse than mine, and then someone else will say the same after listening to my story. It is all about our own personal perspective and experience.
Well done, sir, and you have my heartfelt congratulations on what you have achieved.
Wow. Just WOW. That was a stunning story, clearly from deep in your heart, and I applaud you for your honesty and courage.
One thing I always find hilarious about my group (and AA too from the few meetings I have attended when on holiday in NZ) is that there is always someone whose story seems far worse than mine, and then someone else will say the same after listening to my story. It is all about our own personal perspective and experience.
Well done, sir, and you have my heartfelt congratulations on what you have achieved.
In trying to make that concise I left a lot out.
One thing I will add is I know the God word is tough for some people to deal with, it’s been problematic for me as well but mostly its other people’s beliefs and their voicing of them I have trouble with now. Like I said, there’s some crazy people there.
In the 12x12 there is a line in step 2 that says something like “the hoop we have to jump through here is much bigger than we think it is”.
I took step 2 when I identified with what that guy was talking about and became open minded to the help that might be available in AA.
I took step 3 when I made the decision to do the things the guy on the CD suggested.
That’s it. I did that sitting in my car without doing anything, or thinking about God.
At the very beginning of the series of events that lead to AA is a conversation Carl Jung had with a bloke telling him he needed to find a spiritual experience. It took a lot of reading and time for me to learn that what Jung meant by that isn’t what a Christian would interpret it as. He’s talking about the totality of one’s psyche being fractured and the re unification of that. So, for me the word god is just a symbol for wholeness.
Most people in AA view me as an atheist.
One last thing…. AA doesn’t need to be what it is for me for everyone, that’s important for me to understand.
One thing I will add is I know the God word is tough for some people to deal with, it’s been problematic for me as well but mostly its other people’s beliefs and their voicing of them I have trouble with now. Like I said, there’s some crazy people there.
In the 12x12 there is a line in step 2 that says something like “the hoop we have to jump through here is much bigger than we think it is”.
I took step 2 when I identified with what that guy was talking about and became open minded to the help that might be available in AA.
I took step 3 when I made the decision to do the things the guy on the CD suggested.
That’s it. I did that sitting in my car without doing anything, or thinking about God.
At the very beginning of the series of events that lead to AA is a conversation Carl Jung had with a bloke telling him he needed to find a spiritual experience. It took a lot of reading and time for me to learn that what Jung meant by that isn’t what a Christian would interpret it as. He’s talking about the totality of one’s psyche being fractured and the re unification of that. So, for me the word god is just a symbol for wholeness.
Most people in AA view me as an atheist.
One last thing…. AA doesn’t need to be what it is for me for everyone, that’s important for me to understand.
Harvey
I believe that meetings work best when each person takes out of it what works best for him/her.
An excellent point. I stress with new members of our group that there is no need to become good friends with everyone in the group. As with any other group (work colleagues, members of your sports team, members of any other social group), it is rare to get on equally well with every other member.AA doesn’t need to be what it is for me for everyone, that’s important for me to understand.
I believe that meetings work best when each person takes out of it what works best for him/her.
Harvey
It is a marvelously liberating feeling.
This also is a good point: however hard my wife tries to understand the person I was when I was drinking and what I have been through to stay sober, there is no way she can genuinely comprehend, whereas the members of my group all have walked the same path as I have, which means I can open my heart fully and be understood, with no need to any pretense.AA can be hard work, there are some crazy people there and it can be a tough place to navigate at times but there are few places I feel as free to be myself or as useful as in AA.
It is a marvelously liberating feeling.
On the eve of RWC and the accompanying increase in temptations to hit the booze, I thought it might be a good to check in with everyone to see how we are all doing.
I'm going to be in NZ for about half of the tournament and watching the rest in my lounge, sober for the entire time of course.
I'm going to be in NZ for about half of the tournament and watching the rest in my lounge, sober for the entire time of course.
Checking in. I’m still all good. Over 3 years for me now.
I don’t generally drink 0% beer. But on certain occasions I will, and have the 0% Guinness/0% Peroni.
Happy without it. Not bothered about never drinking. Oddly, I now have switched from being awkward about saying I don’t drink to very happy to publish it. Can see those who are pushing for drinking events more clearly now. Who are loosely under its grip.
I don’t generally drink 0% beer. But on certain occasions I will, and have the 0% Guinness/0% Peroni.
Happy without it. Not bothered about never drinking. Oddly, I now have switched from being awkward about saying I don’t drink to very happy to publish it. Can see those who are pushing for drinking events more clearly now. Who are loosely under its grip.
Sounds like you are in a really good place, mate.Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:40 am Checking in. I’m still all good. Over 3 years for me now.
I don’t generally drink 0% beer. But on certain occasions I will, and have the 0% Guinness/0% Peroni.
Happy without it. Not bothered about never drinking. Oddly, I now have switched from being awkward about saying I don’t drink to very happy to publish it. Can see those who are pushing for drinking events more clearly now. Who are loosely under its grip.
-
And 1 guest
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:51 pm
6 months off it for me. All good so far, even starting to get used to the different sleeping patterns
Good man. Hopefully the midnight games at RWC do not screw up your sleeping patterns.And 1 guest wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:17 am 6 months off it for me. All good so far, even starting to get used to the different sleeping patterns
-
troglodiet
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:12 pm
- Location: South Africa
Mate, I would describe myself as very religious. But although raised as Christian and even considered studying Theology, I'm no longer in the Christian clan. Or any other religion. I now regard them as blasphemous.Harveys wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:30 pm
At the very beginning of the series of events that lead to AA is a conversation Carl Jung had with a bloke telling him he needed to find a spiritual experience. It took a lot of reading and time for me to learn that what Jung meant by that isn’t what a Christian would interpret it as. He’s talking about the totality of one’s psyche being fractured and the re unification of that. So, for me the word god is just a symbol for wholeness.
Most people in AA view me as an atheist.
And what you describe, is not that far from my own view of God. For me it's not just the totality of oneself, but also the Oneness of creation.
In the song "Hi Ren", there is a beautiful line: "I go by many names also, some people know me as Hope, some people know me as the voice that they hear when they loosen the noose on the rope". That to me is a good description of "God", as opposed to the mainstream version of a bearded fairy on a cloud.
2 days ago - 05/09/2023 marked my 22 years of being sober.
This thread is a major contributor in keeping me clean.
Damn, that is good to hear. An achievement of which you should be insanely proud.troglodiet wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:21 am
2 days ago - 05/09/2023 marked my 22 years of being sober.
This thread is a major contributor in keeping me clean.
Great achievement, TrogsKiwias wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:47 pmDamn, that is good to hear. An achievement of which you should be insanely proud.troglodiet wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:21 am
2 days ago - 05/09/2023 marked my 22 years of being sober.
This thread is a major contributor in keeping me clean.
Amazing Trogs, well done.Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:26 pmGreat achievement, TrogsKiwias wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:47 pmDamn, that is good to hear. An achievement of which you should be insanely proud.troglodiet wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:21 am
2 days ago - 05/09/2023 marked my 22 years of being sober.
This thread is a major contributor in keeping me clean.
I'm 2 months in to my latest period of abstinence and enjoying it with no real urges, even with the WC coming up. Interestingly, this time in my head I haven't put any minimum period on it or have a target, such as Christmas, just happy to keep going.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
SlickSlick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:16 am
Amazing Trogs, well done.
I'm 2 months in to my latest period of abstinence and enjoying it with no real urges, even with the WC coming up. Interestingly, this time in my head I haven't put any minimum period on it or have a target, such as Christmas, just happy to keep going.
Good luck this time, mate. Not setting a firm target is a good idea as my experience was that having a target made me less committed to maintaining my sobriety.
-
Monkey Magic
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:28 am
Just clicked over 12 months since the last drink.
Have had a few (maybe 8), 0% beers over that time but nothing else.
Breakfast time kick offs should stop any of the rwc related temptation. Haven't tried the cold swimming yet, and will probably gladly miss those this winter
Haven't read this thread for a while and not a bad idea to Skim through bits of it again. Reminding myself that blowing out at some big upcoming events is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Have had a few (maybe 8), 0% beers over that time but nothing else.
Breakfast time kick offs should stop any of the rwc related temptation. Haven't tried the cold swimming yet, and will probably gladly miss those this winter
Haven't read this thread for a while and not a bad idea to Skim through bits of it again. Reminding myself that blowing out at some big upcoming events is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Yup, it's definitely a learning curve... after the 6 months off it last time, as I've said before on here, I made that decision to drink for a couple of weeks on holiday... and 4 months later.... yup, I know the story now.Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:53 amSlickSlick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:16 am
Amazing Trogs, well done.
I'm 2 months in to my latest period of abstinence and enjoying it with no real urges, even with the WC coming up. Interestingly, this time in my head I haven't put any minimum period on it or have a target, such as Christmas, just happy to keep going.
Good luck this time, mate. Not setting a firm target is a good idea as my experience was that having a target made me less committed to maintaining my sobriety.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
We all live and learn.Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:13 amYup, it's definitely a learning curve... after the 6 months off it last time, as I've said before on here, I made that decision to drink for a couple of weeks on holiday... and 4 months later.... yup, I know the story now.Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:53 amSlickSlick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:16 am
Amazing Trogs, well done.
I'm 2 months in to my latest period of abstinence and enjoying it with no real urges, even with the WC coming up. Interestingly, this time in my head I haven't put any minimum period on it or have a target, such as Christmas, just happy to keep going.
Good luck this time, mate. Not setting a firm target is a good idea as my experience was that having a target made me less committed to maintaining my sobriety.
Well done on your 12 months, MM.Monkey Magic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:11 am Just clicked over 12 months since the last drink.
Have had a few (maybe 8), 0% beers over that time but nothing else.
Breakfast time kick offs should stop any of the rwc related temptation. Haven't tried the cold swimming yet, and will probably gladly miss those this winter
Haven't read this thread for a while and not a bad idea to Skim through bits of it again. Reminding myself that blowing out at some big upcoming events is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Great stuff MMMonkey Magic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:11 am Just clicked over 12 months since the last drink.
Have had a few (maybe 8), 0% beers over that time but nothing else.
Breakfast time kick offs should stop any of the rwc related temptation. Haven't tried the cold swimming yet, and will probably gladly miss those this winter
Haven't read this thread for a while and not a bad idea to Skim through bits of it again. Reminding myself that blowing out at some big upcoming events is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Question, how's the head? I'm beginning to wonder if the fuzzyness is just me, or if it clears after that time!
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Yep, and welcome back.Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:13 amYup, it's definitely a learning curve... after the 6 months off it last time, as I've said before on here, I made that decision to drink for a couple of weeks on holiday... and 4 months later.... yup, I know the story now.Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:53 amSlickSlick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:16 am
Amazing Trogs, well done.
I'm 2 months in to my latest period of abstinence and enjoying it with no real urges, even with the WC coming up. Interestingly, this time in my head I haven't put any minimum period on it or have a target, such as Christmas, just happy to keep going.
Good luck this time, mate. Not setting a firm target is a good idea as my experience was that having a target made me less committed to maintaining my sobriety.
I must admit I saw the warning signs when you posted this comment, on the not regretting it at that point in time.
“Genuinely loved the 5 months without it and agonised over dropping it for the 3 weeks. Not sure I massively regret it but very pleased to be back off it”
-
Monkey Magic
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:28 am
I have a 5 year old and 7 month old, fuzziness is just me for now...Slick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:33 amGreat stuff MMMonkey Magic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:11 am Just clicked over 12 months since the last drink.
Have had a few (maybe 8), 0% beers over that time but nothing else.
Breakfast time kick offs should stop any of the rwc related temptation. Haven't tried the cold swimming yet, and will probably gladly miss those this winter
Haven't read this thread for a while and not a bad idea to Skim through bits of it again. Reminding myself that blowing out at some big upcoming events is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Question, how's the head? I'm beginning to wonder if the fuzzyness is just me, or if it clears after that time!
Although think it has got worse since dropping off the exercise