NPR

Expect civil war and Al Qaeda to re-emerge.

All those lives and money wasted for nothing.

GogLais wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:10 am All those lives and money wasted for nothing.

Usual US policy. Stomp all over a place with no succession or exit plan and result is it's worse than before having now disaffected even those they were purportedly there to help.

GogLais wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:10 am All those lives and money wasted for nothing.

They died for America's FREEDOM, fuck yeah!

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:15 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:10 am All those lives and money wasted for nothing.

They died for America's FREEDOM, fuck yeah!

If it provides a breeding ground for an Al Qaeda upsurge, the Yanks might yet come to regret this.

It turned out exactly as everyone knew it would

Even though I could see it coming, the news that Lash and Kandahar have fallen got to me more than I was expecting. Shite night.

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:23 am It turned out exactly as everyone knew it would

This is it. So predictable to everyone, except those involved.

What a total waste of lives on all sides. A net gain of absolutely nothing. Right up there with Vietnam.

Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

The regular ANA/ANP forces weren't interested even when ISAF troops were there physically mentoring them they were a bag of shite. They were more interested in smoking weed than carrying out patrols.

Their SF however, were quite impressive but they had a stricter selection criteria as you'd imagine.

That doesn't bring into it the tribal factors. Troops were displaced from their homeland to fight in another province a lot of the time too.

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

This is a pretty good analysis. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-rumsfeld

Essentially the imbalance in quality across the ANSF and strategic errors in spreading themselves too thin in the face of the Taliban insurgency has resulted in a collapse on all fronts. The Afghan veterans on the board will have a better perspective.

On that article - there's some irony in Kagan holding forth given his thinktank was one of the architects of Bush's little imperial adventures in the first place, but him and his brother are the sort of strategic thinkers that always rely on the uncertainty of events ensuring they're never wrong (and the petro-dollars can keep rolling in).

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:13 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

This is a pretty good analysis. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-rumsfeld

Essentially the imbalance in quality across the ANSF and strategic errors in spreading themselves too thin in the face of the Taliban insurgency has resulted in a collapse on all fronts. The Afghan veterans on the board will have a better perspective.

On that article - there's some irony in Kagan holding forth given his thinktank was one of the architects of Bush's little imperial adventures in the first place, but him and his brother are the sort of strategic thinkers that always rely on the uncertainty of events ensuring they're never wrong (and the petro-dollars can keep rolling in).

There a link missing Brazil?

Ah, ignore me.

I saw a conservative estimate that over 100000 could face execution in Kabul alone when it inevitably falls. Absolutely shameful episode in modern history.

I see the afghans have a bigger army and are better equipped than the taliban so the military leaders must be pretty shit

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:18 amAh, ignore me.

Sorry, got carried away and forgot to include it!

Cartman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:23 am I see the afghans have a bigger army and are better equipped than the taliban so the military leaders must be pretty shit

Doesn't matter how good their leaders are (they're often not though and corruption is rife) when the soldiers will empty a belt at nothing in particular before running away.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:13 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

The regular ANA/ANP forces weren't interested even when ISAF troops were there physically mentoring them they were a bag of shite. They were more interested in smoking weed than carrying out patrols.

Their SF however, were quite impressive but they had a stricter selection criteria as you'd imagine.

That doesn't bring into it the tribal factors. Troops were displaced from their homeland to fight in another province a lot of the time too.

It was amusing when the Danes were thinking of banning their servicemen in ISAF from having porn, for fear of offending local sensibilities. A booty I knew pointed out that after the bacon from the ration packs, the porn was the first thing the Afghan solidiers nicked.

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

Same as Vietnam. Complex mix of
- corrupt Government which means moneys intended for helping build stability is lost and makes it easier for anti-Govt forces to recruit and even sympathetic citizens to become apathetic/disaffected.
- the terrain is difficult. My great grandfather fought in one of the Anglo-Afghan wars and is recalled as saying the terroir made it unwinnable. It's hand to hand fighting, inch by inch which doesn't lend itself
to winning with technology or superior fire power. In the end, you can't defeat an enemy whose motto is "we are prepared to die to the last man. Are you?"
- which means containment (or the Walter Kurtz solution) is your only option....... and that costs money and bodies which the Yanks eventually get bored with.

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:54 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:13 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

The regular ANA/ANP forces weren't interested even when ISAF troops were there physically mentoring them they were a bag of shite. They were more interested in smoking weed than carrying out patrols.

Their SF however, were quite impressive but they had a stricter selection criteria as you'd imagine.

That doesn't bring into it the tribal factors. Troops were displaced from their homeland to fight in another province a lot of the time too.

It was amusing when the Danes were thinking of banning their servicemen in ISAF from having porn, for fear of offending local sensibilities. A booty I knew pointed out that after the bacon from the ration packs, the porn was the first thing the Afghan solidiers nicked.

never heard that about the Danes.

There was a local bloke with a stall in Bastion selling knock off DVDs. Porn definitely wasn't a problem

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:13 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 am Why aren’t the government forces being more successful?

It’s a conflict I know little about, so if anyone has any decent, informed and hopefully impartial articles for me to educate myself, I’d appreciate it.

Cheers

This is a pretty good analysis. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-rumsfeld

Essentially the imbalance in quality across the ANSF and strategic errors in spreading themselves too thin in the face of the Taliban insurgency has resulted in a collapse on all fronts. The Afghan veterans on the board will have a better perspective.

On that article - there's some irony in Kagan holding forth given his thinktank was one of the architects of Bush's little imperial adventures in the first place, but him and his brother are the sort of strategic thinkers that always rely on the uncertainty of events ensuring they're never wrong (and the petro-dollars can keep rolling in).

I shouldn't be surprised but it's a f**king disgrace. You could read Daniel Ellsberg's Secrets or watch Ken Burns' The Vietnam War and substitute Afghanistan for Vietnam in every f**k up made in Indo China bar the illegal expansion of the war into neighbouring countries: and even here, the US had a bit of a nibble in Pakistan.

An Intimate War by Dr Mike Martin has been recommended, he's also worth a follow on twitter (@ThreshedThought).

I've ordered it but not sure I can bring myself to read much more anytime soon. The news is fucking shite enough atm. Can't seem to stop refreshing feeds though

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:11 am An Intimate War by Dr Mike Martin has been recommended, he's also worth a follow on twitter (@ThreshedThought).

I've ordered it but not sure I can bring myself to read much more anytime soon. The news is fucking shite enough atm. Can't seem to stop refreshing feeds though

I'll have a look for that. I was going to ask what had happened to the militias, but from his feed it looks like they're just changing sides to avoid the hassle of fighting. What wouldn't the Afghans give for an Ahmed Shah Massoud now?

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:21 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:11 am An Intimate War by Dr Mike Martin has been recommended, he's also worth a follow on twitter (@ThreshedThought).

I've ordered it but not sure I can bring myself to read much more anytime soon. The news is fucking shite enough atm. Can't seem to stop refreshing feeds though

I'll have a look for that. I was going to ask what had happened to the militias, but from his feed it looks like they're just changing sides to avoid the hassle of fighting. What wouldn't the Afghans give for an Ahmed Shah Massoud now?

Or a TE Lawrence.

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:21 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:11 am An Intimate War by Dr Mike Martin has been recommended, he's also worth a follow on twitter (@ThreshedThought).

I've ordered it but not sure I can bring myself to read much more anytime soon. The news is fucking shite enough atm. Can't seem to stop refreshing feeds though

I'll have a look for that. I was going to ask what had happened to the militias, but from his feed it looks like they're just changing sides to avoid the hassle of fighting. What wouldn't the Afghans give for an Ahmed Shah Massoud now?

Bilal Sarwary too. Journalist in Kabul.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:58 am

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:54 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:13 am
The regular ANA/ANP forces weren't interested even when ISAF troops were there physically mentoring them they were a bag of shite. They were more interested in smoking weed than carrying out patrols.

Their SF however, were quite impressive but they had a stricter selection criteria as you'd imagine.

That doesn't bring into it the tribal factors. Troops were displaced from their homeland to fight in another province a lot of the time too.

It was amusing when the Danes were thinking of banning their servicemen in ISAF from having porn, for fear of offending local sensibilities. A booty I knew pointed out that after the bacon from the ration packs, the porn was the first thing the Afghan solidiers nicked.

never heard that about the Danes.

It does seem very 'Scandinavian' to include porn in ration packs.

But Drump would've handled it better...

TB63 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:42 am But Drump would've handled it better...

Meh; the Afghans are war whores, fighting anyone and everyone for cash. Tribal bandits. They've been this way for 2000 years. It's one of those places on Earth where it's just better to pretend doesn't exist and stay clear.
The very occasional jab outside their borders at the rest of us should be expected and then ignored.

Sux to be a woman, child or donkey over there, but they don't help themselves as a nation either.

TB63 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:42 am But Drump would've handled it better...

"We're going to build a wall...and Pakistan's gonna pay for it..."

What a terrible situation for women in that country. Not just women but kids and gay people too in fact anyone who isn't one of these nutjobs. The Taliban seems to have given themselves a bit of a facelift but they will absolutely revert to their barbarous type in short order.

I foresee another wave of Islamic terror emerging in the next few years. Already happening in East Africa, now creeping South into Mozambique.

The only way to stop this is to neuter Iran and Saudi Arabia somehow. Pretty sure they're behind most of the misery in the Islamic countries. I also wonder how the Chinese role in Afghanistan will affect developments there.

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:48 am The only way to stop this is to neuter Iran and Saudi Arabia somehow. Pretty sure they're behind most of the misery in the Islamic countries. I also wonder how the Chinese role in Afghanistan will affect developments there.

Probably best to go to war with Iran now, just in case?

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:50 am

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:48 am The only way to stop this is to neuter Iran and Saudi Arabia somehow. Pretty sure they're behind most of the misery in the Islamic countries. I also wonder how the Chinese role in Afghanistan will affect developments there.

Probably best to go to war with Iran now, just in case?

Given the origins of the Taliban, and the double game they've played throughout the entire conflict, Pakistan would make more sense. Iran aren't particularly big fans of the Taliban IIRC because they're Sunnis not Shiites, and their border is pretty secure. They're also far more preocuppied with Israel interdicting their oil shipments to Syria.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:42 am Meh; the Afghans are war whores, fighting anyone and everyone for cash. Tribal bandits. They've been this way for 2000 years. It's one of those places on Earth where it's just better to pretend doesn't exist and stay clear.
The very occasional jab outside their borders at the rest of us should be expected and then ignored.

Sux to be a woman, child or donkey over there, but they don't help themselves as a nation either.

Well they've been invaded almost non-stop for the past 2000 years. The Brits, Indians, Ruskies and Yanks have occupied the country for most of the last 200 years. They've been forced to become a nation of fighters. Don't actually ever recall any aggressions aimed outside their borders tbf. Al Qaida was based in Afghan but was really an Arab thing.

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:56 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:42 am Meh; the Afghans are war whores, fighting anyone and everyone for cash. Tribal bandits. They've been this way for 2000 years. It's one of those places on Earth where it's just better to pretend doesn't exist and stay clear.
The very occasional jab outside their borders at the rest of us should be expected and then ignored.

Sux to be a woman, child or donkey over there, but they don't help themselves as a nation either.

Well they've been invaded almost non-stop for the past 2000 years. The Brits, Indians, Ruskies and Yanks have occupied the country for most of the last 200 years. They've been forced to become a nation of fighters. Don't actually ever recall any aggressions aimed outside their borders tbf. Al Qaida was based in Afghan but was really an Arab thing.

Alexander the great says hello

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:53 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:50 am

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:48 am The only way to stop this is to neuter Iran and Saudi Arabia somehow. Pretty sure they're behind most of the misery in the Islamic countries. I also wonder how the Chinese role in Afghanistan will affect developments there.

Probably best to go to war with Iran now, just in case?

Given the origins of the Taliban, and the double game they've played throughout the entire conflict, Pakistan would make more sense. Iran aren't particularly big fans of the Taliban IIRC because they're Sunnis not Shiites, and their border is pretty secure. They're also far more preocuppied with Israel interdicting their oil shipments to Syria.

I was thinking about the greater middle-east and the way that the Iran-Turkey-Saudi power struggle affects the localized conflicts. There are just so many factors at play here I guess. Then there are the Chinese and Indian influences which complicate things even more.

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:01 pm

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:53 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:50 am

Probably best to go to war with Iran now, just in case?

Given the origins of the Taliban, and the double game they've played throughout the entire conflict, Pakistan would make more sense. Iran aren't particularly big fans of the Taliban IIRC because they're Sunnis not Shiites, and their border is pretty secure. They're also far more preocuppied with Israel interdicting their oil shipments to Syria.

I was thinking about the greater middle-east and the way that the Iran-Turkey-Saudi power struggle affects the localized conflicts. There are just so many factors at play here I guess. Then there are the Chinese and Indian influences which complicate things even more.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:50 am

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:48 am The only way to stop this is to neuter Iran and Saudi Arabia somehow. Pretty sure they're behind most of the misery in the Islamic countries. I also wonder how the Chinese role in Afghanistan will affect developments there.

Probably best to go to war with Iran now, just in case?

Absolutely not. The US led interventions into the region have been disastrous. But the Soviets are even more to blame. Their invasion really destroyed any hope the Afghanis had.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:20 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:15 am

GogLais wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:10 am All those lives and money wasted for nothing.

They died for America's FREEDOM, fuck yeah!

If it provides a breeding ground for an Al Qaeda upsurge, the Yanks might yet come to regret this.

You know what...I would hope that the US's intelligence gathering services are ahead of it. Our intelligence services couldn't predict a mass looting and billions of Rands damage with it advertised openly on social media.
No matter what, the Islamic extremists with an ax to grind with the US are not going to stop fighting this Jihad against America.

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:00 pm

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:56 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:42 am Meh; the Afghans are war whores, fighting anyone and everyone for cash. Tribal bandits. They've been this way for 2000 years. It's one of those places on Earth where it's just better to pretend doesn't exist and stay clear.
The very occasional jab outside their borders at the rest of us should be expected and then ignored.

Sux to be a woman, child or donkey over there, but they don't help themselves as a nation either.

Well they've been invaded almost non-stop for the past 2000 years. The Brits, Indians, Ruskies and Yanks have occupied the country for most of the last 200 years. They've been forced to become a nation of fighters. Don't actually ever recall any aggressions aimed outside their borders tbf. Al Qaida was based in Afghan but was really an Arab thing.

Alexander the great says hello

Pffft! Genghis Khan made Alexander the Great look like the Peace Corps in Afghan.