Calcutta Cup match thread

Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:48 am

What?

Who?

against

Teams:

Where?

When?

Sat 5 Feb 4.45PM local time.

Discuss.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:14 am

weather forecast, which means absolutely nothing in Edinburgh, looks like an OK day but windy.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:28 am

Who is that in the photo?

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:44 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:28 am Who is that in the photo?

&

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:50 am

Jumping this over from the other thread as I think it makes more sense here:

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:11 am
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:38 am
weegie01 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:17 am

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... avourites/

BCM trying hard to take the underdog tag for the Calcutta Cup. Given Scotland have 10% of the resources England have, it is a miracle they have won as many as 29 out of 70 games at home to England. England are always favourites.
Yes we've always had challenges getting all of our hundreds of thousands of players on the pitch at the same time.

Have to say I'm not sure I agree with BCM, I think we turned a corner in the autumn and talent wise I back our side. It isn't clear cut and I think it'll be a close game, but I'm happy enough to call us favourites.
I'm quite surprised by that, but fair enough. I think it looks like a really quite limited squad and team and I think we should be pretty confident going into the game.

In saying that, the 6N is the 6N and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if everything clicks on the day for England and they blow us away. And of course we also have the capacity to blow up, and do regularly

As I saw the Autumn (caveat that bar the Japan game I didn't watch all 80 mins of Scotland's games)
Let's ignore both games against Tonga, with the greatest of respect to them.

Scotland squeezed past Australia in a game that really could have gone either way, England made them look a bit silly despite playing essentially no rugby in the second half. It was a weird game, was exceptionally dull given there was clearly only one winner throughout.

Scotland SA looked a decent game but the result wasn't in any doubt. England beat SA, in a rare win outside our comfort zone where we were stuffed up front but got the job done (have had this discussion with JMK before who has examples of England being stuffed up front and winning. I don't but regardless it is very rare.) England had inexperienced players in key positions at key times and yet found ways to win, orchestrated a comeback and managed to avoid cheap shots at the end to keep their heads when plenty of England sides would not.
There were signs of the old Eddie Jones as well - set move tries seemingly from nothing etc. We had a plan that wasn't just 'kick it'.
The same day Scotland very nearly lost to Japan. Japan are a fine side and I love their brand of rugby but you get my point.

This is where I'm coming from - England were very poor in the 6N but there was a huge amount of it that was self-inflicted. We basically refused to play rugby vs Scotland last year and lost by 6 points. When we actually did play rugby we beat France in a superb performance.

Jones is the big if for me - we could easily decide to play no rugby again but if we avoid that I think we have a talented side that can win the whole thing.
Scotland have a good side, they're serious contenders for the title and have had our number for a while but I'd take our side over theirs IMHO.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:55 am

It's incredibly difficult to predict what England are going to be like. The talent's there - so on that I disagree with Slick - but who knows what they'll be asked to do or how cohesive they'll be.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:58 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:55 am It's incredibly difficult to predict what England are going to be like. The talent's there - so on that I disagree with Slick - but who knows what they'll be asked to do or how cohesive they'll be.

Yes agreed. We could easily double down on the Scotland & Ireland performances from last year, but I have a reasonable degree of confidence we turned that corner in the autumn.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:04 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:55 am It's incredibly difficult to predict what England are going to be like. The talent's there - so on that I disagree with Slick - but who knows what they'll be asked to do or how cohesive they'll be.

And we haven't even started boring our Scottish compadres with Jones' frequently bonkers selection 'methods' yet.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:17 am

Yes, Paddington, if a caveat were needed, which it isn't where Scotland are concerned, we had a relatively poor Autumn series. For some reason things were not clicking. I never felt we would lose to Oz or Japan, but I never thought we would end up winning against SA.

I just look at the current England team and the front 5 doesn't worry me too much (and with England a big hard front 5 should be a minimum), back row could be awesome but can also be out thought. The centres just seem a constant mess and the back 3 doesn't frighten like maybe it did a few years back - although I love the new fullback, class player.

I don't think Youngs is quite as bad advertised although there does seem to be a load of better 9's. And then of course Marcus. I haven't seen much of him to be perfectly honest, but I'm not convinced he is the Messiah, we will see.

As I said previously though, if it all does click for England then who knows, they are a hard team to beat when their tails are up and the win against SA shows they can win ugly - that was a gutsy performance. That's just my current impressions.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:02 pm

Agreed on our front 5. Looking forward to the match is a stretch but I think it'll be a good one.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:57 pm

Hmm, struggling to see how Genge/LCD/Sinckler/Itoje/Hill doesn't meet the criteria for a "big, hard front 5". Their problems lie beyond the physicality and aggression.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:20 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:17 am And then of course Marcus. I haven't seen much of him to be perfectly honest, but I'm not convinced he is the Messiah, we will see.

Slick is The Walrus and I claim my lunchtime snifter.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:41 pm

I do detect a certain amount of antipathy for young Marcus leaking out from North of Hadrian's Wall. It's like they're concerned Finn will no longer be rugby's premier maverick 10...

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:48 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:41 pm I do detect a certain amount of antipathy for young Marcus leaking out from North of Hadrian's Wall. It's like they're concerned Finn will no longer be rugby's premier maverick 10...

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:49 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:41 pm I do detect a certain amount of antipathy for young Marcus leaking out from North of Hadrian's Wall. It's like they're concerned Finn will no longer be rugby's premier maverick 10...

Really? All I hear is people like that England have a young fly-half who worships Finn. We're just worried he might be so un-English in his play he won't fit the England game plan. Ends up as a Quins legend with 15 England caps.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:49 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:57 pm Hmm, struggling to see how Genge/LCD/Sinckler/Itoje/Hill doesn't meet the criteria for a "big, hard front 5". Their problems lie beyond the physicality and aggression.

I don't think that is a particularly intimidating front 5.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:52 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:41 pm I do detect a certain amount of antipathy for young Marcus leaking out from North of Hadrian's Wall. It's like they're concerned Finn will no longer be rugby's premier maverick 10...

Antipathy? I don't think many people, including myself, know enough about him to feel anything like that. I've certainly not come across anything approaching antipathy.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:56 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:41 pm I do detect a certain amount of antipathy for young Marcus leaking out from North of Hadrian's Wall. It's like they're concerned Finn will no longer be rugby's premier maverick 10...

Marcus Smith wears Finn Russell pyjamas.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:58 pm

I thought that would stir you up!

Not just on here, but in amidst the rapturous praise and fervent hope there's definitely an under-current of denigration or preaching excessive caution when it comes to Smith.

He could well end up being crapper than we all believe he is and not the messiah of English rugby, but thus far he's stepped up at every level he's been asked to and the prospect of him being able to run the game without being encumbered by Farrell is tantalising.

Of course Eddie wil probably have instructed the team to play anti-rugby again and watching the match will become an endurance event.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:58 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:49 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:57 pm Hmm, struggling to see how Genge/LCD/Sinckler/Itoje/Hill doesn't meet the criteria for a "big, hard front 5". Their problems lie beyond the physicality and aggression.
I don't think that is a particularly intimidating front 5.

OK but in what sense? Just physicality or something else? Is this a comment on quality or 'hardness'? Because, jokes about Genge aside, that's a seriously lumpy aggressive front five.

To be clear I'm not asking you to justify your opinion or anything, I just want to make sure I understand it. It's always interesting to see how other countries view our players!

Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:59 pm

I would never have Smith down as a maverick, he is supremely talented and he makes pretty much all the right decisions at the right time, and is very confident in his own ability. I don't see him having the outright brain farts that Finn does, unfortunately Russell's moments of "genius" are too few and far between, his fuckups however are more common.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:42 pm

I'll stick with my usual Calcutta Cup prediction, we'll get pumped.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:29 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:58 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:49 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:57 pm Hmm, struggling to see how Genge/LCD/Sinckler/Itoje/Hill doesn't meet the criteria for a "big, hard front 5". Their problems lie beyond the physicality and aggression.
I don't think that is a particularly intimidating front 5.
OK but in what sense? Just physicality or something else? Is this a comment on quality or 'hardness'? Because, jokes about Genge aside, that's a seriously lumpy aggressive front five.

To be clear I'm not asking you to justify your opinion or anything, I just want to make sure I understand it. It's always interesting to see how other countries view our players!

Genge is just a but meh, bit of a gobshite who hasn't really earned the right to be so yet. LCD is a good hard player but I think we have 3 or 4 hookers who are at least a match for him. I love Sinckler, but he just seems a bit off at the moment, certainly doesn't seem to dominate in the front row.

Itoje is undoubtable a fantastic 2nd row but I'm not sure he is the type of player you would call a big hard front 5 - but he has plenty of other attributes so that is in no way a criticism. When Hill plays well he definitely does fit that category.

I'm not trying to denigrate anyone, I just think that when England are a good side they have a front 5 who will front up against anyone and I'm not sure these guys strike fear into many hearts at the moment. Not that ours do either, but they rarely do.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:49 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:29 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:58 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:49 pm

I don't think that is a particularly intimidating front 5.
OK but in what sense? Just physicality or something else? Is this a comment on quality or 'hardness'? Because, jokes about Genge aside, that's a seriously lumpy aggressive front five.

To be clear I'm not asking you to justify your opinion or anything, I just want to make sure I understand it. It's always interesting to see how other countries view our players!
Genge is just a but meh, bit of a gobshite who hasn't really earned the right to be so yet. LCD is a good hard player but I think we have 3 or 4 hookers who are at least a match for him. I love Sinckler, but he just seems a bit off at the moment, certainly doesn't seem to dominate in the front row.

Itoje is undoubtable a fantastic 2nd row but I'm not sure he is the type of player you would call a big hard front 5 - but he has plenty of other attributes so that is in no way a criticism. When Hill plays well he definitely does fit that category.

I'm not trying to denigrate anyone, I just think that when England are a good side they have a front 5 who will front up against anyone and I'm not sure these guys strike fear into many hearts at the moment. Not that ours do either, but they rarely do.

OK, sounds more like a quality thing than anything else (and fair enough)

Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:55 pm

I first saw Marcus Smith play one one of his very early games for Quins and I've been huge fan ever since, I think he has the potential to be in the running for goat status, but it's funny how the guys who are in that stratosphere are often in World Cup winning sides or they are the extremely rare Sergio or Caucau types, so much will depend on those around him.

Finn is way under-rated and seemingly misunderstood, he gets that silly 'maverick' tag hung around his neck when he's anything but. He plays the game plan but can see things others can't, he kicks well from hand and can run a game from ten with the best of them (as can Smith).

The first time I went to Murrayfield was in 1978 and I've seen far too many Scottish false dawns and implosions and grasping defeat from the jaws of victory, and since the advent of professionalism far too many utter shite performances from supposedly good players to ever again think that we are favourites against any six nations sides, yes even Italy.

We often over-rate our team and get disappointed when they get walloped, and yet...

I once wrote an article for a blog describing Scottish supporters being a bit like the Schultz character Charlie Brown. His friend Lucy used to hold a football for him to kick and every time Charlie took a run at it Lucy would snatch the ball away at the last minute, and he'd end up on his backside.
Every single time Lucy said she would let him kick it this time, Charlie would believe it and take his run up with the familiar ending.

Scotland rugby supporters are like Charlie and I'm no different, this year is going to be our year.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:16 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:49 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:29 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:58 pm

OK but in what sense? Just physicality or something else? Is this a comment on quality or 'hardness'? Because, jokes about Genge aside, that's a seriously lumpy aggressive front five.

To be clear I'm not asking you to justify your opinion or anything, I just want to make sure I understand it. It's always interesting to see how other countries view our players!
Genge is just a but meh, bit of a gobshite who hasn't really earned the right to be so yet. LCD is a good hard player but I think we have 3 or 4 hookers who are at least a match for him. I love Sinckler, but he just seems a bit off at the moment, certainly doesn't seem to dominate in the front row.

Itoje is undoubtable a fantastic 2nd row but I'm not sure he is the type of player you would call a big hard front 5 - but he has plenty of other attributes so that is in no way a criticism. When Hill plays well he definitely does fit that category.

I'm not trying to denigrate anyone, I just think that when England are a good side they have a front 5 who will front up against anyone and I'm not sure these guys strike fear into many hearts at the moment. Not that ours do either, but they rarely do.
OK, sounds more like a quality thing than anything else (and fair enough)

It's not a bad post, but LCD is better than any of the Scottish hookers

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:24 pm

I have more than a decade more than you of watching Scotland lose games they were favourites for. Enough to say there is never a game we are truly favourites for. Even when we look good on paper, we always find a way to lose.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:42 pm

Jones is going to pick Ford over Smith

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:43 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:42 pm Jones is going to pick Ford over Smith

unquetionably, with youngs at 9, he will claim someting about it being good to keep club pairings together or somesuch utter wank.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:54 pm

Will England play tight or loose?

I think it would be a mistake to get into a loose game with Scotland who love that style of game

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:59 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:16 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:49 pm
Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:29 pm

Genge is just a but meh, bit of a gobshite who hasn't really earned the right to be so yet. LCD is a good hard player but I think we have 3 or 4 hookers who are at least a match for him. I love Sinckler, but he just seems a bit off at the moment, certainly doesn't seem to dominate in the front row.

Itoje is undoubtable a fantastic 2nd row but I'm not sure he is the type of player you would call a big hard front 5 - but he has plenty of other attributes so that is in no way a criticism. When Hill plays well he definitely does fit that category.

I'm not trying to denigrate anyone, I just think that when England are a good side they have a front 5 who will front up against anyone and I'm not sure these guys strike fear into many hearts at the moment. Not that ours do either, but they rarely do.
OK, sounds more like a quality thing than anything else (and fair enough)
It's not a bad post, but LCD is better than any of the Scottish hookers

Yeah I rate this Scottish side and its front row but 4 hookers as good as LCD or better is a reach.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:10 pm

England have the players to beat Scotland in Edinburgh. If they manage it then it'll be in spite of Eddie Jones. I see the antipodean gobshite has been poking the Scottish with threats and barbs already. The prick.

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:26 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:42 pm Jones is going to pick Ford over Smith

Would it be a disaster? It's not like Ford hasn't been playing out of his skin, and he's hardly a sea anchor at Test level.

Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:54 am

Think we all have a legitimate concern that, as I think is mentioned above, Smith becomes a talent who retires with 15 caps. I'm not as wedded to him as some but he's earned his place in the side, showed he's got the head for it and deserves a run now. It may turn out he's not as good as thought but now is the time to find out.

Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:13 am

My thoughts for what they're worth. It should be a very close game Scotland have the players to bet anyone but equally capable of a collective brainfart and getting humped by anyone. I can't remember us ever having such quality and in depth from 1-15.

Smith is a huge talent, I'm glad he's on the bench. 9 is where England is weakest, it's a Blackhole that the ball struggles to emerge from. Farrel not playing I reckon is in England favour IMO he's an overrated c#nt. Itoje has evolved into a great player.

Should be an enthralling game

probably all come down to which set of props piss the ref off most

Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:27 am

dkm57 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:13 am My thoughts for what they're worth. It should be a very close game Scotland have the players to bet anyone but equally capable of a collective brainfart and getting humped by anyone. I can't remember us ever having such quality and in depth from 1-15.

Smith is a huge talent, I'm glad he's on the bench. 9 is where England is weakest, it's a Blackhole that the ball struggles to emerge from. Farrel not playing I reckon is in England favour IMO he's an overrated c#nt. Itoje has evolved into a great player.

Should be an enthralling game probably all come down to which set of props piss the ref off most

???? Have you seen a team announcement I haven't????

The "smith on the bench" stuff is more us whinging about Eddie

Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:45 am

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:27 am
dkm57 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:13 am My thoughts for what they're worth. It should be a very close game Scotland have the players to bet anyone but equally capable of a collective brainfart and getting humped by anyone. I can't remember us ever having such quality and in depth from 1-15.

Smith is a huge talent, I'm glad he's on the bench. 9 is where England is weakest, it's a Blackhole that the ball struggles to emerge from. Farrel not playing I reckon is in England favour IMO he's an overrated c#nt. Itoje has evolved into a great player.

Should be an enthralling game probably all come down to which set of props piss the ref off most
???? Have you seen a team announcement I haven't????

The "smith on the bench" stuff is more us whinging about Eddie

Team is announced on Thursday

Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:46 am

Scotland have the quality to win but also have it in them to get humped.

Bookies have England as favourites and I can't see any reason to disagree really. The Scotland attack was pretty uninspiring in the autumn and if Redpath isn't fit enough to play then our centres are quite bland which puts a lot of pressure on Russell.

Looking forward to seeing Smith v Russell, both players who look to play good attacking rugby. Hopefully the gameplans from the coaches let them.

Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:19 am

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:46 am Scotland have the quality to win but also have it in them to get humped.

Bookies have England as favourites and I can't see any reason to disagree really. The Scotland attack was pretty uninspiring in the autumn and if Redpath isn't fit enough to play then our centres are quite bland which puts a lot of pressure on Russell.

Looking forward to seeing Smith v Russell, both players who look to play good attacking rugby. Hopefully the gameplans from the coaches let them.

Redpath looked in pretty good nick in his comeback match for Bath on Friday night
Thought I read on the Scotland thread you guys discussing the strength in depth of the possible centre pairings for the 6N?

Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:34 am

Admit to the Smith on the bench thing being speculation, Smith v Russell is a mouthwatering prospect, to my mind Smith is more deft though reliable whereas Russel is more nail-bitingly WTF! with both magical and dire consequences. I still reckon Eddie will go tried and tested for this one though.

Redpath was playing at the weekend so should be OK to play, whether the Toonie tombola picks him though is another matter, might reckon he's short of game time.

Ireland, narrow
F~ck knows
France, by a barrowload