NPR

I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss. Scotland was the better team. End of story

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss.

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss. Scotland was the better team. End of story

damn, now where are the codez for Zapp

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss.

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss.

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss.

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

This was a rare occasion where the backs decided things. England's forwards provided more than enough ball to put this game away, but a mixture of ineptitude and sticking rigidly to Eddie's ridiculous kicking plan meant we didn't take advantage of it.

Scotland, on the other hand, were sharp enough to make use of the ball they did have and produce two try scoring opportunities.

Also, any calls for Eddie to go are based on far more than this result.

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

England need depth. It take time to develop it.

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

Where a hooker has been carded, are his team allowed to bring on another hooker in any situation other than a scrum?

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:59 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

This was a rare occasion where the backs decided things. England's forwards provided more than enough ball to put this game away, but a mixture of ineptitude and sticking rigidly to Eddie's ridiculous kicking plan meant we didn't take advantage of it.

Scotland, on the other hand, were sharp enough to make use of the ball they did have and produce two try scoring opportunities.

Also, any calls for Eddie to go are based on far more than this result.

England have done well since Eddie took over. You played in the WC final. Destroyed the All Blacks in the semi. He brought Smith through the ranks, some world class players specially in the pack.

Obvious he is the type of coach that think ahead and do strange coaching which is difficult for supporters to understand.

Keep your faith in him.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:20 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:59 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

This was a rare occasion where the backs decided things. England's forwards provided more than enough ball to put this game away, but a mixture of ineptitude and sticking rigidly to Eddie's ridiculous kicking plan meant we didn't take advantage of it.

Scotland, on the other hand, were sharp enough to make use of the ball they did have and produce two try scoring opportunities.

Also, any calls for Eddie to go are based on far more than this result.

England have done well since Eddie took over. You played in the WC final. Destroyed the All Blacks in the semi. He brought Smith through the ranks, some world class players specially in the pack.

Obvious he is the type of coach that think ahead and do strange coaching which is difficult for supporters to understand.

Keep your faith in him.

He's absolutely tanked our record against Scotland, we now have a better win rate against the Boks! He's delivered 2 fifth place finished in the 6N, more than any other coach.

He's frequently had us playing dreadful, absolutely dreadful, rugby that completely squanders the talent under his disposal. If our players weren't as good as they are we'd lose far more frequently and he'd have been out on his ear a while back.

The highs are high, but the lows are low. The highs are also becoming less and less frequent. He's done and should've been moved on last year at the latest.

I don't agree. England always play a confrontal forward game like the Springboks. Change that to running rugby (Eddie is an Aussie) is impossible and will fail.

Scotland and Ireland have the backs to play running rugby.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:33 pm I don't agree. England always play a confrontal forward game like the Springboks. Change that to running rugby (Eddie is an Aussie) is impossible and will fail.

Scotland and Ireland have the backs to play running rugby.

No one's saying we're should suddenly turn into Australia, but we can't keep going as we are.

We've had a more balanced game under Eddie earlier in his tenure where our backs would actually play a bit off the back of some forward dominance. The team have completely regressed in that area since the world cup.

You don't get more full of shite supporters then us. Winning a World Cup silent the supporters in two ticks. Rassie did it in two years. Jones have the experience to fo it he need faith from the Pomland supporters.

duke wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:16 pm

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

Where a hooker has been carded, are his team allowed to bring on another hooker in any situation other than a scrum?

You can just... Make a substitution. Bring someone off, put George on. Replace LCD with whoever is going to cover the position that got removed when the time comes.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:42 pm You don't get more full of shite supporters then us. Winning a World Cup silent the supporters in two ticks. Rassie did it in two years. Jones have the experience to fo it he need faith from the Pomland supporters.

I wish you'd stop with this shit. Eddie Jones has coached England longer than anywhere else. He's been here for seven years or something. How much time does he need? If we lack depth, isn't that his fault?

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:43 pm

duke wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:16 pm

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

Where a hooker has been carded, are his team allowed to bring on another hooker in any situation other than a scrum?

You can just... Make a substitution. Bring someone off, put George on. Replace LCD with whoever is going to cover the position that got removed when the time comes.

You could but then surely they would not be able to return after the card expires??

You would end up with two hookers on the pitch.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:43 pm

duke wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:16 pm

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

Where a hooker has been carded, are his team allowed to bring on another hooker in any situation other than a scrum?

You can just... Make a substitution. Bring someone off, put George on. Replace LCD with whoever is going to cover the position that got removed when the time comes.

Nah not quite. If you make a tactical or injury replacement then the player going off cannot come back on except for blood or HIA cover. The exceptions are:

Front row players - replaced front rowers can be reused in order to maintain contested scrums; and
If a front rower has been yellow carded you can replace any player at a scrum for the duration of the YC in order to bring a replacement FR player on and maintain contested scrums. In this case the replacement can be reversed after the YC period. There is no Equivalent allowance for line outs or any other play except scrums.

Edit to add: I see what you’re saying - replace say Simmonds with George and then replace LCD with Dombrandt after the YC period. That defo works but uses and forces a permanent change.

As I posted in the match thread you can still get a temporary swap by replacing Marler with George and then doing a YC temporary replacement at the first scrum to take Simmonds off for Marler (reversed after YC period). You can interchange the front row thereafter as needed.

pjm1 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:53 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:43 pm

duke wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:16 pm
Where a hooker has been carded, are his team allowed to bring on another hooker in any situation other than a scrum?

You can just... Make a substitution. Bring someone off, put George on. Replace LCD with whoever is going to cover the position that got removed when the time comes.

Nah not quite. If you make a tactical or injury replacement then the player going off cannot come back on except for blood or HIA cover. The exceptions are:

Front row players - replaced front rowers can be reused in order to maintain contested scrums; and
If a front rower has been yellow carded you can replace any player at a scrum for the duration of the YC in order to bring a replacement FR player on and maintain contested scrums. In this case the replacement can be reversed after the YC period. There is no Equivalent allowance for line outs or any other play except scrums.

What is it you think I said?

LCD off. Make a normal substitution to get George on for the lineout. Tale off Simmonds for example. Then when the yellow card period is up, sub on Dombrandt for LCD instead of LCD coming back on.

It's not complicated and people are getting too hung up over the temporary yellow card front subs. Normal substitutions would've solved this problem. Jones fucked up.

Openside wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:48 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:43 pm

duke wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:16 pm
Where a hooker has been carded, are his team allowed to bring on another hooker in any situation other than a scrum?

You can just... Make a substitution. Bring someone off, put George on. Replace LCD with whoever is going to cover the position that got removed when the time comes.

You could but then surely they would not be able to return after the card expires??

You would end up with two hookers on the pitch.

There was only about 5 minutes of the match left once the yellow expired anyway.

Sub off Simmonds, send on George. When the bin period's up keep LCD off and send Ewels on. Shift Itoje or Isiekwe to 6. Probably the latter as he has more recent experience playing there for Saints and Sarries.

We would not have been able to swap George for Marler. You can't reduce yourself to an invalid front row by default.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:01 pm

Openside wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:48 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:43 pm

You can just... Make a substitution. Bring someone off, put George on. Replace LCD with whoever is going to cover the position that got removed when the time comes.

You could but then surely they would not be able to return after the card expires??

You would end up with two hookers on the pitch.

There was only about 5 minutes of the match left once the yellow expired anyway.

Sub off Simmonds, send on George. When the bin period's up keep LCD off and send Ewels on. Shift Itoje or Isiekwe to 6. Probably the latter as he has more recent experience playing there for Saints and Sarries.

It's baffling that people don't understand this

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:01 pm We would not have been able to swap George for Marler. You can't reduce yourself to an invalid front row by default.

As I replied on the other thread, I suspect you are right but as far as I can tell from the laws and how they’re written, they don’t appear to prevent it. There might be an almighty Barney on the touch line!

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

It would have had to have been a permanent sub. You can't bring on a hooker for the lineouts because it's not a specialist position. Presume Jones wanted LCD to come back on to the pitch.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:21 pm

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:32 pm

Forwards decided the win. Smith can't scrum.

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

It would have had to have been a permanent sub. You can't bring on a hooker for the lineouts because it's not a specialist position. Presume Jones wanted LCD to come back on to the pitch.

For fucks sake.

WE KNOW. It was still necessary.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:36 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:21 pm

Crash669 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:46 pm

Alright then, how about the decision not to bring a hooker on when LCD got carded resulting in Marker trying a throw in?

It would have had to have been a permanent sub. You can't bring on a hooker for the lineouts because it's not a specialist position. Presume Jones wanted LCD to come back on to the pitch.

For fucks sake.

WE KNOW. It was still necessary.

And what if the yellow had been at 10 minutes? If the card had been with less than 10 mins to go, then there is no debate. Anything else is the coach's call.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:42 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:36 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:21 pm

It would have had to have been a permanent sub. You can't bring on a hooker for the lineouts because it's not a specialist position. Presume Jones wanted LCD to come back on to the pitch.

For fucks sake.

WE KNOW. It was still necessary.

And what if the yellow had been at 10 minutes? If the card had been with less than 10 mins to go, then there is no debate. Anything else is the coach's call.

Who gives a shit? It happened deep into the second half, with England having to throw into a lineout on their own 5m line. That's entirely the point: everything about situation demanded a substitution. Hence, Eddie Jones fucked up.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:45 pm Who gives a shit? It happened deep into the second half, with England having to throw into a lineout on their own 5m line. That's entirely the point: everything about situation demanded a substitution. Hence, Eddie Jones fucked up.

How deep is deep?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:45 pm Who gives a shit? It happened deep into the second half, with England having to throw into a lineout on their own 5m line. That's entirely the point: everything about situation demanded a substitution. Hence, Eddie Jones fucked up.

How deep is deep?

14 minutes to go.

Edit: actually, it would've been even more than that. George came on right after the lineout, so ten minutes to go.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:30 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:45 pm Who gives a shit? It happened deep into the second half, with England having to throw into a lineout on their own 5m line. That's entirely the point: everything about situation demanded a substitution. Hence, Eddie Jones fucked up.

How deep is deep?

14 minutes to go.

Edit: actually, it would've been even more than that. George came on right after the lineout, so ten minutes to go.

Midol has 66 mins so that tallies. I know you want every stone available to throw at Jones but I just don't think that incident was a big deal. If Marler hadn't done a clown throw, it would not even be being discussed. When a hooker goes, rarely will you see anything change until it is forced to at the next scrum. Eng might have had zero own throw lineouts for the 10 min bin and I can see why Jones would want to keep a backrow on when down to 14 over a sub hooker.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:32 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:30 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:28 pm
How deep is deep?

14 minutes to go.

Edit: actually, it would've been even more than that. George came on right after the lineout, so ten minutes to go.

Midol has 66 mins so that tallies. I know you want every stone available to throw at Jones but I just don't think that incident was a big deal. If Marler hadn't done a clown throw, it would not even be being discussed. When a hooker goes, rarely will you see anything change until it is forced to at the next scrum. Eng might have had zero own throw lineouts for the 10 min bin and I can see why Jones would want to keep a backrow on when down to 14 over a sub hooker.

So sub a back instead.

Any coach who thinks it's a good idea to have a meathead prop throwing in to a 5m lineout at a crucial point in the game needs their fucking head examined. No one is suggesting it should've been a immediate swap when LCD went off. But as soon as we had that lineout to handle, George should've come on. It's braindead by Jones and it was inevitable it would go wrong.

"If Marler hadn't done a clown throw" - it was a prop throwing in. The throw didn't go five because England were having to pull some bullshit move just to avoid him having to throw it properly. It was an entirely predictable and avoidable fiasco, and Jones is absolutely to blame.

Far too much is being made of that. It wasn’t the thrower who ran an absolutely shit line inside the 5m line. It was much more important that the scenario of not having a hooker had already been prepared for in training and I’d be reasonably sure it has in any professional team when you never know when a yellow will strike.

Flockwitt wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:47 pm Far too much is being made of that. It wasn’t the thrower who ran an absolutely shit line inside the 5m line. It was much more important that the scenario of not having a hooker had already been prepared for in training and I’d be reasonably sure it has in any professional team when you never know when a yellow will strike.

As a last resort, sure.

Having an actual hooker on the pitch was easily attainable, which is infinitely preferable.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:02 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:01 pm

Openside wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:48 pm

You could but then surely they would not be able to return after the card expires??

You would end up with two hookers on the pitch.

There was only about 5 minutes of the match left once the yellow expired anyway.

Sub off Simmonds, send on George. When the bin period's up keep LCD off and send Ewels on. Shift Itoje or Isiekwe to 6. Probably the latter as he has more recent experience playing there for Saints and Sarries.

It's baffling that people don't understand this

Don’t understand what?

Flockwitt wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:47 pm Far too much is being made of that. It wasn’t the thrower who ran an absolutely shit line inside the 5m line. It was much more important that the scenario of not having a hooker had already been prepared for in training and I’d be reasonably sure it has in any professional team when you never know when a yellow will strike.

Agreed. Every team has a check out move like this in case the line out had gone completely to shit. The fact is Dom randy made a total shop front of it and came running into the 5m channel. You let the jumping pod make its move backwards then come round and take it. He rushed marler into it hence the fuck up

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss.

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Flyhalves are normally pretty crap subs whereas scrumhalves usually make a positive impact.
I think he's lost it

LenCohen wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:28 pm

Flockwitt wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:47 pm Far too much is being made of that. It wasn’t the thrower who ran an absolutely shit line inside the 5m line. It was much more important that the scenario of not having a hooker had already been prepared for in training and I’d be reasonably sure it has in any professional team when you never know when a yellow will strike.

Agreed. Every team has a check out move like this in case the line out had gone completely to shit. The fact is Dom randy made a total shop front of it and came running into the 5m channel. You let the jumping pod make its move backwards then come round and take it. He rushed marler into it hence the fuck up

I'm fairly sure every team has a move that involves the hooker throwing in.

Eddie's accepted the blame for this, which is good. I've been wracking my brain trying to remember how often I've seen a lineout taken by a non-hooker when there's a hooker on the bench. I think I've seen it maybe twice before in pro rugby, both when there's been literally no other options. Given how many times I've seen hookers get a yellow card, that's remarkable. It's almost like it's a terrible idea to have anyone except a specialist throwing at lineout time.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:59 pm

LenCohen wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:28 pm

Flockwitt wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:47 pm Far too much is being made of that. It wasn’t the thrower who ran an absolutely shit line inside the 5m line. It was much more important that the scenario of not having a hooker had already been prepared for in training and I’d be reasonably sure it has in any professional team when you never know when a yellow will strike.

Agreed. Every team has a check out move like this in case the line out had gone completely to shit. The fact is Dom randy made a total shop front of it and came running into the 5m channel. You let the jumping pod make its move backwards then come round and take it. He rushed marler into it hence the fuck up

I'm fairly sure every team has a move that involves the hooker throwing in.

Eddie's accepted the blame for this, which is good. I've been wracking my brain trying to remember how often I've seen a lineout taken by a non-hooker when there's a hooker on the bench. I think I've seen it maybe twice before in pro rugby, both when there's been literally no other options. Given how many times I've seen hookers get a yellow card, that's remarkable. It's almost like it's a terrible idea to have anyone except a specialist throwing at lineout time.

We have few uses, but they are important

Cartman wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:39 pm

C69 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:31 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm I have big respect for Eddie. Can't blame him for yesterday's loss.

Apart from taking Smith off when England were in control with Smith having a blinded.
Ford was err...

Flyhalves are normally pretty crap subs whereas scrumhalves usually make a positive impact.
I think he's lost it

To be fair whilst the match was lost in the 7 or so minutes after Smith was subbed Ford barely even touched the ball.

England forwards made three errors that proved consequential, as follows:

63 - lineout
65 - LCD (penalty try)
68 - not throwing the lineout 5

I personally hate planned substitutions and I don't agree with the decision to hook Smith but I don't think bringing Ford on had any impact on the match.

Eddie can take notes from Rassie Erasmus in managing his bomb squad.

But now he want to make videos.

Too disruptive to dump him at this stage.