NPR

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61325542

Bye bye to the Dragons then.

And, frankly, bye bye to Wales as a competitive force in rugby until the WRU sorts out the balance between club and intl.

FFS - if that does happen it will mean inevitably more fucking changes to the URC. God knows how they'll make that work.

SA have the best case for an extra team to make up the numbers with the Cheetahs, but the home and away fixtures would have to be scrapped within country probably.

On the face of it, losing a pro team when you've only got 4 isn't a good thing, but perhaps this is necessary to give the other 3 a shot in the arm performance wise?

The regions have achieved the sum total of fuck all for ages and while that won't all be down to the players, there's probably an argument that having their quality players consolidated into fewer teams might given them more of a competitive edge.

Should have joined with us when they had the chance.

I suspect what's happening in Wales is what would eventually have happened in England if the RFU had implemented a centrally-contracted divisional model back in 1995/6 to start the professional era in England.

The club system is too entrenched, parochial and tribal in Wales to get the region's to work even after all these years.

PornDog wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:02 am FFS - if that does happen it will mean inevitably more fucking changes to the URC. God knows how they'll make that work.

SA have the best case for an extra team to make up the numbers with the Cheetahs, but the home and away fixtures would have to be scrapped within country probably.

Let the Jaguares join the comp based in Europe

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:41 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61325542

Bye bye to the Dragons then.

And, frankly, bye bye to Wales as a competitive force in rugby until the WRU sorts out the balance between club and intl.

The dragons really shouldn't have ever been the weakest region based on the players coming through and the clubs in the region but when you can't retain your best talents then you can't build a team.

Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:16 am I suspect what's happening in Wales is what would eventually have happened in England if the RFU had implemented a centrally-contracted divisional model back in 1995/6 to start the professional era in England.

The club system is too entrenched, parochial and tribal in Wales to get the region's to work even after all these years.

Was English rugby really that tribal in 95? The similarity is that regions in both England and Wales are fake and don't attract loyalty.

We do seem to like really dull names for our regions. It's always "The North East", "The South West", "The Midlands" rather than Northumbria, Wessex, Mercia. Need names that might stir some ancient loyalties / hatreds.

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:10 am On the face of it, losing a pro team when you've only got 4 isn't a good thing, but perhaps this is necessary to give the other 3 a shot in the arm performance wise?

The regions have achieved the sum total of fuck all for ages and while that won't all be down to the players, there's probably an argument that having their quality players consolidated into fewer teams might given them more of a competitive edge.

The regions were the mistake to start with. A total failure IMHO. I understand the difficulties that the Welsh had in trying to build a sustainable club format with all the parochial politics within the old club system (everyone wanting a piece of the pie). But those complex decisions were precisely what the WRU was being paid for. The only "region" that has worked is the Scarlets......... because it was simply Llanelli. That's probably hard on the Dragons who have actually done pretty well given the crumbs they've had under the system: but that's down, again, to them being a proper team.

{EDIT} Reflected also in Kawazaki's post.

{EDIT2} Also, I don't believe it's possible to be competitive at intl level with only 3 feeding teams (remember, unlike the Scots, the Welsh operate a home based played only policy). For example, if you have 3 tight head props, you can bet at any one time, one will be injured.

Mahoney wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:52 am We do seem to like really dull names for our regions. It's always "The North East", "The South West", "The Midlands" rather than Northumbria, Wessex, Mercia. Need names that might stir some ancient loyalties / hatreds.

'And the wheel' said the Captain 'what about this wheel thingy? it sounds a terribly interesting project'

I think we just have to accept Wales are tying to build top down. For many of us we think in terms of building bottom up, but they didn't and seemingly don't want the cost of that being reflected in the national team, for myself I don't like the decision they're making but I can respect it's their decision to take.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:01 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:10 am On the face of it, losing a pro team when you've only got 4 isn't a good thing, but perhaps this is necessary to give the other 3 a shot in the arm performance wise?

The regions have achieved the sum total of fuck all for ages and while that won't all be down to the players, there's probably an argument that having their quality players consolidated into fewer teams might given them more of a competitive edge.

The regions were the mistake to start with. A total failure IMHO. I understand the difficulties that the Welsh had in trying to build a sustainable club format with all the parochial politics within the old club system (everyone wanting a piece of the pie). But those complex decisions were precisely what the WRU was being paid for. The only "region" that has worked is the Scarlets......... because it was simply Llanelli. That's probably hard on the Dragons who have actually done pretty well given the crumbs they've had under the system: but that's down, again, to them being a proper team.

{EDIT} Reflected also in Kawazaki's post.

{EDIT2} Also, I don't believe it's possible to be competitive at intl level with only 3 feeding teams (remember, unlike the Scots, the Welsh operate a home based played only policy). For example, if you have 3 tight head props, you can bet at any one time, one will be injured.

They've over-performed internationally for quite some time and even with that almost every title was followed by a mediocre or genuinely shit 6N finish while their southern hemisphere record has generally been trash even when Australia were utterly shit. Maybe their competitiveness will get worse, who knows. The regions maybe winning a bit more might help the mentality of younger players coming through.

They won't just have 3 tightheads, though, will they? A minimum of 6 to fulfil matchday squads across three teams, plus any back ups. Ireland with their 4 teams have often had guys who aren't nailed on starters for their province in the national team's '23. They also don't operate a solely home selection policy. Players under contract elsewhere when capped can see out those contracts. They then have to come to Wales if given a 'market rate offer' when next out of contract. That could certainly be relaxed to allow playing in England if they think its necessary.

It's not ideal, but if 3 is what they have to work with then it is what it is.

The New Zealand model should really be a template that far more countries look to emulate. I'm sure the forum Kiwis will point out it's shortcomings but Wales and New Zealand have far more in common than most rugby playing nations.

Wales' success at national level has been insulating their national team from being utter gash. I know they lost to Italy, but that's more a reflection that on talent they probably should have been going into that game for the wooden spoon. Instead they beat a fancied Scotland side, nearly engineered a remarkable comeback v England and ran France all the way. The belief built up through success is covering a lot of gaps, as and when that runs out things could get ugly. It's a small country and the sport there is in decline, no one who spends any time in Wales can honestly call rugby their national sport any more.

Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:43 am The New Zealand model should really be a template that far more countries look to emulate. I'm sure the forum Kiwis will point out it's shortcomings but Wales and New Zealand have far more in common than most rugby playing nations.

I couldn't agree with you more. Always thought Soup really was designed to help Aus because they had no viable club comp in a pro era. NZ and SA would have been fine with NPC and Currie. All Soup did was to undermine the economic viability of the national comps in those 2.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:44 am Wales' success at national level has been insulating their national team from being utter gash. I know they lost to Italy, but that's more a reflection that on talent they probably should have been going into that game for the wooden spoon. Instead they beat a fancied Scotland side, nearly engineered a remarkable comeback v England and ran France all the way. The belief built up through success is covering a lot of gaps, as and when that runs out things could get ugly. It's a small country and the sport there is in decline, no one who spends any time in Wales can honestly call rugby their national sport any more.

Which was WRU's strategy from outset i.e. sacrifice the clubs for a successful ntl side. But it was always going to have a finite lifespan.

The game IS in decline in Wales (although I suspect not as much nor quite in the manner you might think) and that is all down to
- the deliberate diminishing of the ntl comp
- creating regions where, in most cases, the locals did not identify with. Esprit de clocher is as much a thing in Wales as it is in France............ the difference being France had economic powerhouses in cities which could step in for the clubs that were destroyed; think Lyon & Montpellier v Bourgoin & Narbonne
- creating regions which actually competed with their local, equivalent clubs i.e. fighting for the same fan base FFS

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:16 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:44 am Wales' success at national level has been insulating their national team from being utter gash. I know they lost to Italy, but that's more a reflection that on talent they probably should have been going into that game for the wooden spoon. Instead they beat a fancied Scotland side, nearly engineered a remarkable comeback v England and ran France all the way. The belief built up through success is covering a lot of gaps, as and when that runs out things could get ugly. It's a small country and the sport there is in decline, no one who spends any time in Wales can honestly call rugby their national sport any more.

Which was WRU's strategy from outset i.e. sacrifice the clubs for a successful ntl side. But it was always going to have a finite lifespan.

The game IS in decline in Wales (although I suspect not as much nor quite in the manner you might think) and that is all down to
- the deliberate diminishing of the ntl comp
- creating regions where, in most cases, the locals did not identify with. Esprit de clocher is as much a thing in Wales as it is in France............ the difference being France had economic powerhouses in cities which could step in for the clubs that were destroyed; think Lyon & Montpellier v Bourgoin & Narbonne
- creating regions which actually competed with their local, equivalent clubs i.e. fighting for the same fan base FFS

You can't escape the gravitational pull of football. Cardiff/Swansea and hell even Newport being half decent exacerbates this.

Football might well get fans and commercial income in Wales but only because it is piggy-backing the English league. The Welsh domestic football league is utter shite. Rugby is still culturally the sport they play in Wales.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:23 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:16 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:44 am Wales' success at national level has been insulating their national team from being utter gash. I know they lost to Italy, but that's more a reflection that on talent they probably should have been going into that game for the wooden spoon. Instead they beat a fancied Scotland side, nearly engineered a remarkable comeback v England and ran France all the way. The belief built up through success is covering a lot of gaps, as and when that runs out things could get ugly. It's a small country and the sport there is in decline, no one who spends any time in Wales can honestly call rugby their national sport any more.

Which was WRU's strategy from outset i.e. sacrifice the clubs for a successful ntl side. But it was always going to have a finite lifespan.

The game IS in decline in Wales (although I suspect not as much nor quite in the manner you might think) and that is all down to
- the deliberate diminishing of the ntl comp
- creating regions where, in most cases, the locals did not identify with. Esprit de clocher is as much a thing in Wales as it is in France............ the difference being France had economic powerhouses in cities which could step in for the clubs that were destroyed; think Lyon & Montpellier v Bourgoin & Narbonne
- creating regions which actually competed with their local, equivalent clubs i.e. fighting for the same fan base FFS

You can't escape the gravitational pull of football. Cardiff/Swansea and hell even Newport being half decent exacerbates this.

Never convinced it works like that. Don't think Leicester city has had a negative impact on Tiger's. Swansea and Cardiff teams aren't as good as Leicester's in either sport.

It comes down to if they are well run and successful people will watch them. As stated elsewhere the wru are going for a top down approach and very focused on the national side and paying off the stadium debt.

It's being suggested that Scarlets and Ospreys merge..get fucked, no way would I support those Jaks...

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:01 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:10 am On the face of it, losing a pro team when you've only got 4 isn't a good thing, but perhaps this is necessary to give the other 3 a shot in the arm performance wise?

The regions have achieved the sum total of fuck all for ages and while that won't all be down to the players, there's probably an argument that having their quality players consolidated into fewer teams might given them more of a competitive edge.

The regions were the mistake to start with. A total failure IMHO. I understand the difficulties that the Welsh had in trying to build a sustainable club format with all the parochial politics within the old club system (everyone wanting a piece of the pie). But those complex decisions were precisely what the WRU was being paid for. The only "region" that has worked is the Scarlets......... because it was simply Llanelli. That's probably hard on the Dragons who have actually done pretty well given the crumbs they've had under the system: but that's down, again, to them being a proper team.

{EDIT} Reflected also in Kawazaki's post.

{EDIT2} Also, I don't believe it's possible to be competitive at intl level with only 3 feeding teams (remember, unlike the Scots, the Welsh operate a home based played only policy). For example, if you have 3 tight head props, you can bet at any one time, one will be injured.

Don't forget that the reason the welsh went to 5, and then 4 regions, was that the clubs couldn't compete and were regularly getting hockeyed by the Irish provinces and Scottish regions in the nascent Celtic League. And I'm not so sure the Welsh will retreat further to 3 pro teams. I think they'd be better off scrapping their semi-pro level, which just seems to be a way of giving those who can't hack it at pro level some beer money, and invest the money saved into the 4 existing regions.

One thing that’s struck me is that the number of Welsh derbies will be halved (if my logic is correct). That’s fewer matches with relatively bigger crowds and tv audiences. It’s a bit chicken/egg but I think the crowds would come if the teams were successful, whatever they’re called. But then I don’t really know what it’s like in the South.

Camroc2 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:01 pm Don't forget that the reason the welsh went to 5, and then 4 regions, was that the clubs couldn't compete and were regularly getting hockeyed by the Irish provinces and Scottish regions in the nascent Celtic League. And I'm not so sure the Welsh will retreat further to 3 pro teams. I think they'd be better off scrapping their semi-pro level, which just seems to be a way of giving those who can't hack it at pro level some beer money, and invest the money saved into the 4 existing regions.

Yes: but the reason that happened was partly down to the WRU starving the regions of the money needed in order to invest in the Millennium and national accoutrements. The Irish understood that the game is a roots upwards thing long term.

On your 2nd point, I agree on the semi-pro bit scrapping (but nor sure the Welsh voting system would allow for it) and focus on 4 or 5 pro teams based on original sides.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:10 pm

Camroc2 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:01 pm Don't forget that the reason the welsh went to 5, and then 4 regions, was that the clubs couldn't compete and were regularly getting hockeyed by the Irish provinces and Scottish regions in the nascent Celtic League. And I'm not so sure the Welsh will retreat further to 3 pro teams. I think they'd be better off scrapping their semi-pro level, which just seems to be a way of giving those who can't hack it at pro level some beer money, and invest the money saved into the 4 existing regions.

On your 2nd point, I agree on the semi-pro bit scrapping (but nor sure the Welsh voting system would allow for it) and focus on 4 or 5 pro teams based on original sides.

Not sure about that. I’m far from convinced that there would be much greater attendances for Cardiff RFC v Newport RFC than for Blues v Dragons. Delighted to be wrong.

GogLais wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:49 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:10 pm

Camroc2 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:01 pm Don't forget that the reason the welsh went to 5, and then 4 regions, was that the clubs couldn't compete and were regularly getting hockeyed by the Irish provinces and Scottish regions in the nascent Celtic League. And I'm not so sure the Welsh will retreat further to 3 pro teams. I think they'd be better off scrapping their semi-pro level, which just seems to be a way of giving those who can't hack it at pro level some beer money, and invest the money saved into the 4 existing regions.

On your 2nd point, I agree on the semi-pro bit scrapping (but nor sure the Welsh voting system would allow for it) and focus on 4 or 5 pro teams based on original sides.

Not sure about that. I’m far from convinced that there would be much greater attendances for Cardiff RFC v Newport RFC than for Blues v Dragons. Delighted to be wrong.

Maybe not but the "atmosphere" at Ospreys is a joke compared with the old days of Neath or Swansea.

If there are to be mergers, I have their sponsors/mascots lined up...



(Add more antipodeans or remove the more overtly Australian animals)

Very good, Niegs.

TB63 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:49 am It's being suggested that Scarlets and Ospreys merge..get fucked, no way would I support those Jaks...

F**k off Turk.

Well, this has gone down like a lead balloon. Outright rage being the most common reaction.

The WRU has always stuck me as the mirror image of the self serving c**ts that make up the FFR.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:39 pm Well, this has gone down like a lead balloon. Outright rage being the most common reaction.

The WRU has always stuck me as the mirror image of the self serving c**ts that make up the FFR.

Are the people who are outraged, the ones who actually turned up for games, or the ones who continually bitched about the regions ?

The regions are in this state in large part because of the apathy of so called Rugby fans since day one.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 pm
The regions are in this state in large part because of the apathy of so called Rugby fans since day one.

Create some made up side, brand it and expect tribal sports watchers to flock to watch. Yeah. That was gonna work.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 pm
The regions are in this state in large part because of the apathy of so called Rugby fans since day one.

Create some made up side, brand it and expect tribal sports watchers to flock to watch. Yeah. That was gonna work.

Depends on if the new team is playing a better brand of rugby, & is pulling players from the locality, & generally trying to build a following.

There's an appeal for watching parish teams full of fatties grinding out low scoring wins on boggy pitches, but I like watching quality Internationals, & exciting young talents play more

Camroc2 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:01 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:01 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:10 am On the face of it, losing a pro team when you've only got 4 isn't a good thing, but perhaps this is necessary to give the other 3 a shot in the arm performance wise?

The regions have achieved the sum total of fuck all for ages and while that won't all be down to the players, there's probably an argument that having their quality players consolidated into fewer teams might given them more of a competitive edge.

The regions were the mistake to start with. A total failure IMHO. I understand the difficulties that the Welsh had in trying to build a sustainable club format with all the parochial politics within the old club system (everyone wanting a piece of the pie). But those complex decisions were precisely what the WRU was being paid for. The only "region" that has worked is the Scarlets......... because it was simply Llanelli. That's probably hard on the Dragons who have actually done pretty well given the crumbs they've had under the system: but that's down, again, to them being a proper team.

{EDIT} Reflected also in Kawazaki's post.

{EDIT2} Also, I don't believe it's possible to be competitive at intl level with only 3 feeding teams (remember, unlike the Scots, the Welsh operate a home based played only policy). For example, if you have 3 tight head props, you can bet at any one time, one will be injured.

Don't forget that the reason the welsh went to 5, and then 4 regions, was that the clubs couldn't compete and were regularly getting hockeyed by the Irish provinces and Scottish regions in the nascent Celtic League. And I'm not so sure the Welsh will retreat further to 3 pro teams. I think they'd be better off scrapping their semi-pro level, which just seems to be a way of giving those who can't hack it at pro level some beer money, and invest the money saved into the 4 existing regions.

The sole season there were five Welsh regions (2003-4), they all finished in the top 6. Only Ulster in 2nd spoiled the party. Munster and Leinster managed just five wins from their twenty games against Welsh opposition. The three Scottish teams finished bottom.

The binning of the Celtic Warriors was all about money.

Recall Warriors at the time were mustard on field, seven Lions and did pretty damn well in the Heineken Cup.

Sad to see them go but reading the off field stuff it sounded like pure farce. WRU royally screwed that one up.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:11 pm

GogLais wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:49 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:10 pm


On your 2nd point, I agree on the semi-pro bit scrapping (but nor sure the Welsh voting system would allow for it) and focus on 4 or 5 pro teams based on original sides.

Not sure about that. I’m far from convinced that there would be much greater attendances for Cardiff RFC v Newport RFC than for Blues v Dragons. Delighted to be wrong.

Maybe not but the "atmosphere" at Ospreys is a joke compared with the old days of Neath or Swansea.

May well be so but we’re not in the old days anymore.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 pm
The regions are in this state in large part because of the apathy of so called Rugby fans since day one.

Create some made up side, brand it and expect tribal sports watchers to flock to watch. Yeah. That was gonna work.

They would flock to watch if they were given winning rugby. Well maybe not flock but there’d be more of them.

GogLais wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:04 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 pm
The regions are in this state in large part because of the apathy of so called Rugby fans since day one.

Create some made up side, brand it and expect tribal sports watchers to flock to watch. Yeah. That was gonna work.

They would flock to watch if they were given winning rugby. Well maybe not flock but there’d be more of them.

Exactly !

I watched Leinster in the shed in Donnybrook, & now they're a multiple HEC winning side, & they've only slightly upgraded to a bigger shed; but they did the hard yards & after multiple heartbreaks, they finally won; but even then, they only did so after Munster showed them the way.

Ospreys came closest to the getting together the kind of side that won the Irish sides their European Cups, & it was a pity they couldn't maintain that quality of side, because that was a side you'd be happy to pay to see play, & they got the results, but everything about success is a long term project.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:26 pm

GogLais wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:04 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm

Create some made up side, brand it and expect tribal sports watchers to flock to watch. Yeah. That was gonna work.

They would flock to watch if they were given winning rugby. Well maybe not flock but there’d be more of them.

Exactly !

I watched Leinster in the shed in Donnybrook, & now they're a multiple HEC winning side, & they've only slightly upgraded to a bigger shed; but they did the hard yards & after multiple heartbreaks, they finally won; but even then, they only did so after Munster showed them the way.
Ospreys came closest to the getting together the kind of side that won the Irish sides their European Cups, & it was a pity they couldn't maintain that quality of side, because that was a side you'd be happy to pay to see play, & they got the results, but everything about success is a long term project.

And yet both Cardiff and the Scarlets made it further in the competition.

GogLais wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:04 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:02 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 pm
The regions are in this state in large part because of the apathy of so called Rugby fans since day one.

Create some made up side, brand it and expect tribal sports watchers to flock to watch. Yeah. That was gonna work.

They would flock to watch if they were given winning rugby. Well maybe not flock but there’d be more of them.

Were always going to struggle with that long enough term with the way the WRU allocated resources between club and country.