NPR

Feel free to submit your views on here, not anywhere else.

Zapp Bannigan wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:12 pm Feel free to submit your views on here, not anywhere else.

Is this in regards your mother's pregnancy with you?

Pro choice

But I would prefer that abortion was not considered a form of birth control

My view on it. So a woman gets raped, finds out later she's pregnant, by the thoughts of the pro life nutters, she should now endure a 9 month daily torture of knowing that the rapists child is inside her, and she then has to go through childbirth bringing this forcibly conceived child into the world. Knowing full well that it's now her problem, knowing that the last person on earth to contribute to that child's upbringing, financially or morally, will be the rapists..
Is the rapist going to step forward and admit he raped her? Knowing full well he just got his rocks off. Will he contribute to that child's upbringing? As fucking if he's going to do that, as he knows, if he already hasn't been caught.
I'm a father of 3 children, 2 are daughters, 1 of which now has a wonderful daughter, my grandchild. I would back them to the hilt on their own choice of how and when they wanted to reproduce. If any of them were to be forced to go through childbirth through the state governing their choice, I'd fight tooth and nail against that state. How dare we, as men, thrust our choices on somebody's else's bodies? How the fuck would we feel if some government body try to impose a law saying we can't have a wank for example?..
10,000 dollars to dob in a woman, girl.child being driven across the State line to access an abortion is now being offered. What fucking retarded country backs that up?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:35 pm

Zapp Bannigan wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:12 pm Feel free to submit your views on here, not anywhere else.

Is this in regards your mother's pregnancy with you?

You are aware I'm a cartoon character?

Is this to do with Irish rugby?

Don't like abortions? Don't get one. Leave people who feel they need to have one the fuck alone. The vast majority of people who come to that decision don't do so lightly

Slick wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 9:07 pm Is this to do with Irish rugby?

A spat on the mass shooting thread.

C69 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:45 pm Pro choice

But I would prefer that abortion was not considered a form of birth control

This 100%

Even before this recent horrific school shooting, after which some have pointed out that the Christian right care more about guns than school kids, but also are vehemently anti-abortion, I hadn't thought that they're also big "Give me mah freedumbs!" types who don't want government poking into their business... but have no problems imposing their backward views on others via legislation!? Uber cunts, the lot of them!

I can understand those who believe it to be a living being that should be preserved, but they have no right to impose their will on others, and I even extend that to their own kids. Brainwashing your kids with extreme thoughts doesn't sit well with me. (Thought about this while walking past a big rally at the provincial legislature today, the die-hard anti-mandate people who also seem to want to over-throw our government and install dog knows how many batshit crazy draconian rules, not realizing the irony of this.)

Pro-choice

But I am definitely opposed to abortions carried out in the delivery room, including when the baby is halfway out the birth canal (as one GOP congressman asked a specialist appearing before Congress).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 82275.html

I do think it's basically wrong and fucked up, but even if I was Emperor I wouldn't ban it. Many of the common arguments that come out of the pro-choice side are laughably specious, but at the end of the day, I do find it very, very hard to believe society would be better off if it was illegal.

Fonz wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 4:13 am I do think it's basically wrong and fucked up, but even if I was Emperor I wouldn't ban it. Many of the common arguments that come out of the pro-choice side are laughably specious, but at the end of the day, I do find it very, very hard to believe society would be better off if it was illegal.

To be fair, most of the arguments from the anti-choice brigade are equally specious.

My first grand-child was an ectopic pregnancy. I fully supported my daughters decision to terminate as to leave it for any length of time would have endangered her life.

Such a decision is illegal in some backward states.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 4:28 am

Fonz wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 4:13 am I do think it's basically wrong and fucked up, but even if I was Emperor I wouldn't ban it. Many of the common arguments that come out of the pro-choice side are laughably specious, but at the end of the day, I do find it very, very hard to believe society would be better off if it was illegal.

To be fair, most of the arguments from the anti-choice brigade are equally specious.

I will say this -- Republicans totally self-own when they go on about how it's murder, but then make an exception for rape. If it's about the life of the baby, that shouldn't matter...but of course it's not, it's about taking a carefully calculated, focus-group-tested position.

Not my body,


not my decision.

I really struggle with this debate, as there’s no clear answer for me.

The only answer that I can arrive at with any balance is; abortion should be allowed until the point at which the foetus is viable ie could be saved by medical intervention if born at this point. The key part is that the timeframe should be under annual review so if there are medical break through, the timelines change.

The one good thing that I feel could emerge from that approach is that the pro lifers would then be told to invest money and effort into prenatal medicine if they want to reduce the length of time someone could have an abortion. More investment could help reduce miscarriage rates, which is something close to my family’s heart.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

This. No other argument is needed.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:25 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Holy fuck, I hope you limbered up before that reach. A real danger of tearing something.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:36 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:25 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Holy fuck, I hope you limbered up before that reach. A real danger of tearing something.

Eh?

Pro
Pointless debate though. Everybody has their position and they won't be deviating from it.

On my mother's side I come from a devoutly catholic Italian family.

This is not a subject that was commonly discussed, but amongst my mother's (pre 1930) generation the attitude was roughly that it was better to keep a child, but where circumstances made that problematic, termination was better than an unwanted child.

Which remains my attitude, but also it is the woman's choice.

Though not religious myself, I was always impressed by the pragmatism displayed by these devoutly religious women.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:25 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Oh, this should be good.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:39 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:36 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:25 am

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Holy fuck, I hope you limbered up before that reach. A real danger of tearing something.

Eh?

Saying it's up to women to decide, is a cosmos away from saying abortion should be allowed up to birth.

Noping out of the debate as a bloke is a valid stance. Pregnancy is not something that happens to our bodies and women should be allowed to determine the laws connected to it. I understand that view.

Notwithstanding that, when has abortion up to birth ever been on the table? I've literally never heard anyone advocate for that. Even in countries with fairly liberal abortion laws (termination at 28 weeks is the latest I can find) the vast, vast majority happen within 20 weeks because by then women tend to be both aware of whether they're pregnant and whether or not, for whatever reason, they want to bring the pregnancy to term.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:06 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:39 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:36 am

Holy fuck, I hope you limbered up before that reach. A real danger of tearing something.

Eh?

Saying it's up to women to decide, is a cosmos away from saying abortion should be allowed up to birth.

Noping out of the debate as a bloke is a valid stance. Pregnancy is not something that happens to our bodies and women should be allowed to determine the laws connected to it. I understand that view.

Notwithstanding that, when has abortion up to birth ever been on the table? I've literally never heard anyone advocate for that. Even in countries with fairly liberal abortion laws (termination at 28 weeks is the latest I can find) the vast, vast majority happen within 20 weeks because by then women tend to be both aware of whether they're pregnant and whether or not, for whatever reason, they want to bring the pregnancy to term.

This.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:25 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Are you related to Rep Johnson of Lousiana?

Pro choice and I think the UK ( England, Wales and Scotland) gets this about right. It would be nice if the republicans cared more about children after they're born (and their families).

petej wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:29 am Pro choice and I think the UK ( England, Wales and Scotland) gets this about right. It would be nice if the republicans cared more about children after they're born (and their families).

Yep +1

weegie01 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:46 am On my mother's side I come from a devoutly catholic Italian family.

This is not a subject that was commonly discussed, but amongst my mother's (pre 1930) generation the attitude was roughly that it was better to keep a child, but where circumstances made that problematic, termination was better than an unwanted child.

In that generation and previous ones in working class Scotland it was common place for children to be brought up by another family if their birth-parents couldn't afford to raise the child.

Which remains my attitude, but also it is the woman's choice.

It is absolutely the woman's choice and men in general would do well to stfu for a while and listen instead of attempting to legislate on what a woman can and can't do with her body.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:06 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:39 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:36 am

Holy fuck, I hope you limbered up before that reach. A real danger of tearing something.

Eh?

Saying it's up to women to decide, is a cosmos away from saying abortion should be allowed up to birth.

Noping out of the debate as a bloke is a valid stance. Pregnancy is not something that happens to our bodies and women should be allowed to determine the laws connected to it. I understand that view.

Notwithstanding that, when has abortion up to birth ever been on the table? I've literally never heard anyone advocate for that. Even in countries with fairly liberal abortion laws (termination at 28 weeks is the latest I can find) the vast, vast majority happen within 20 weeks because by then women tend to be both aware of whether they're pregnant and whether or not, for whatever reason, they want to bring the pregnancy to term.

There are some later term abortions and people that advocate for it, but that’s not really the thing I’m probing here.

The point I’m making is that the simple: it’s not my body, not my choice does not preclude 9 month abortions, so it’s an overly simplistic approach that simply avoids the moral argument.

Also concept of men not being involved in a moral argument that doesn’t directly impact them is not logically sustainable in this instance. At some point during pregnancy, cells become a life. And so there is surely a moral obligation to that life? If you were talking menopause or something like that, then I’d agree, her body, her choice and I stay out of it.

To be clear, I find the pro life standpoint challenging to resolve too. That’s why I find it interesting, it’s a complicated moral debate, where both of the most vociferous proponents over simplify.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:51 am You are allowed lare term abortions nearly everywhere if certain conditions are met re the foetus. You are talking about the difference between abortion on demand and for medical reasons. Rape falls into the latter category and it is usually allowed for. The line is something like 'mother explicitly requests for mental or physical reasons'. So yeah abortions can happen up to birth and for multiple different reasons. Let's not pretend they don't happen and some of them are not ropey as fuck. I am not saying there is an alternative as all laws are flawed but if I am a women and I want an abortion at 30 something weeks in say Holland I can get it

And it should be available to cater for some extreme circumstances, and to do so safely. The chances anyone wants to go that route, an abortion at 30+ weeks, are vanishingly small, and quite frankly it's bad enough without piling on from those not in the situation

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:35 am

Also concept of men not being involved in a moral argument that doesn’t directly impact them is not logically sustainable in this instance. At some point during pregnancy, cells become a life. And so there is surely a moral obligation to that life? If you were talking menopause or something like that, then I’d agree, her body, her choice and I stay out of it.

Men being involved in the relationship and being a voice that might be listened to, even hopefully be listened to in the normal course of events is fine. But beyond that nope, her body her choice. Without doubt a devastating outcome for some, but you don't get rights over someone else's body when they're available to make the call themselves no matter how invested you are

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:40 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:35 am

Also concept of men not being involved in a moral argument that doesn’t directly impact them is not logically sustainable in this instance. At some point during pregnancy, cells become a life. And so there is surely a moral obligation to that life? If you were talking menopause or something like that, then I’d agree, her body, her choice and I stay out of it.

Men being involved in the relationship and being a voice that might be listened to, even hopefully be listened to in the normal course of events is fine. But beyond that nope, her body her choice. Without doubt a devastating outcome for some, but you don't get rights over someone else's body when they're available to make the call themselves no matter how invested you are

I’m not talking about father and mother individual case morality, I’m talking conceptual morality across populations ie the stuff that leads to democratic based legislation. I don’t believe the views of 50% of the population on a complex moral debate should be dismissed. That’s a classic ear worm side effect of identity politics that needs to be gotten rid of too for me, but that’s another debate altogether.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:35 am

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:51 am You are allowed lare term abortions nearly everywhere if certain conditions are met re the foetus. You are talking about the difference between abortion on demand and for medical reasons. Rape falls into the latter category and it is usually allowed for. The line is something like 'mother explicitly requests for mental or physical reasons'. So yeah abortions can happen up to birth and for multiple different reasons. Let's not pretend they don't happen and some of them are not ropey as fuck. I am not saying there is an alternative as all laws are flawed but if I am a women and I want an abortion at 30 something weeks in say Holland I can get it

And it should be available to cater for some extreme circumstances, and to do so safely. The chances anyone wants to go that route, an abortion at 30+ weeks, are vanishingly small, and quite frankly it's bad enough without piling on from those not in the situation

Agree with this.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:35 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:06 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:39 am

Eh?

Saying it's up to women to decide, is a cosmos away from saying abortion should be allowed up to birth.

Noping out of the debate as a bloke is a valid stance. Pregnancy is not something that happens to our bodies and women should be allowed to determine the laws connected to it. I understand that view.

Notwithstanding that, when has abortion up to birth ever been on the table? I've literally never heard anyone advocate for that. Even in countries with fairly liberal abortion laws (termination at 28 weeks is the latest I can find) the vast, vast majority happen within 20 weeks because by then women tend to be both aware of whether they're pregnant and whether or not, for whatever reason, they want to bring the pregnancy to term.

There are some later term abortions and people that advocate for it, but that’s not really the thing I’m probing here.

The point I’m making is that the simple: it’s not my body, not my choice does not preclude 9 month abortions, so it’s an overly simplistic approach that simply avoids the moral argument.

Also concept of men not being involved in a moral argument that doesn’t directly impact them is not logically sustainable in this instance. At some point during pregnancy, cells become a life. And so there is surely a moral obligation to that life? If you were talking menopause or something like that, then I’d agree, her body, her choice and I stay out of it.

To be clear, I find the pro life standpoint challenging to resolve too. That’s why I find it interesting, it’s a complicated moral debate, where both of the most vociferous proponents over simplify.

You'll find some people advocating that pedophilia be included under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. Batshit minority viewpoints are just that and some really should be dismissed out of hand. At will abortion right up to birth would fall under that

Very late term abortions only really occur where there's medical risk to the mother and that's entirely fair enough, a potential life shouldn't outweigh a fully realised one. Plenty of countries have codified that.

Men can try and talk about morality if they want, but the physicality of pregnancy overrules them. If a woman doesn't want it, then all our pontificating should be rather moot. The idea of someone being forced to go to term because people who don't have to live with the experience decided they aren't comfortable with the alternative is pretty abhorrent to me. On top of the 9 months of being pregnant, which is no picnic, there's a non-zero risk of death for the mother even in a regular pregnancy to say nothing of the irreversible physical changes it induces, not all of which are related to the physical trauma of giving birth.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:20 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 8:25 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 7:44 am Not my body,


not my decision.

So do you believe that abortion should be allowed right up until birth?

Are you related to Rep Johnson of Lousiana?

Not that I’m aware of. I’m just trying to point out that the statement of ‘it’s a woman’s choice’ has limits.

If not birth, then when? That’s where the complexity comes.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:51 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:35 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:06 am

Saying it's up to women to decide, is a cosmos away from saying abortion should be allowed up to birth.

Noping out of the debate as a bloke is a valid stance. Pregnancy is not something that happens to our bodies and women should be allowed to determine the laws connected to it. I understand that view.

Notwithstanding that, when has abortion up to birth ever been on the table? I've literally never heard anyone advocate for that. Even in countries with fairly liberal abortion laws (termination at 28 weeks is the latest I can find) the vast, vast majority happen within 20 weeks because by then women tend to be both aware of whether they're pregnant and whether or not, for whatever reason, they want to bring the pregnancy to term.

There are some later term abortions and people that advocate for it, but that’s not really the thing I’m probing here.

The point I’m making is that the simple: it’s not my body, not my choice does not preclude 9 month abortions, so it’s an overly simplistic approach that simply avoids the moral argument.

Also concept of men not being involved in a moral argument that doesn’t directly impact them is not logically sustainable in this instance. At some point during pregnancy, cells become a life. And so there is surely a moral obligation to that life? If you were talking menopause or something like that, then I’d agree, her body, her choice and I stay out of it.

To be clear, I find the pro life standpoint challenging to resolve too. That’s why I find it interesting, it’s a complicated moral debate, where both of the most vociferous proponents over simplify.

You'll find some people advocating that pedophilia be included under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. Batshit minority viewpoints are just that and some really should be dismissed out of hand. At will abortion right up to birth would fall under that

Very late term abortions only really occur where there's medical risk to the mother and that's entirely fair enough, a potential life shouldn't outweigh a fully realised one. Plenty of countries have codified that.

Men can try and talk about morality if they want, but the physicality of pregnancy overrules them. If a woman doesn't want it, then all our pontificating should be rather moot. The idea of someone being forced to go to term because people who don't have to live with the experience decided they aren't comfortable with the alternative is pretty abhorrent to me. On top of the 9 months of being pregnant, which is no picnic, there's a non-zero risk of death for the mother even in a regular pregnancy to say nothing of the irreversible physical changes it induces, not all of which are related to the physical trauma of giving birth.

So, in a normal pregnancy, when do you find it morally acceptable for an abortion?

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 11:10 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:51 am

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:35 am

There are some later term abortions and people that advocate for it, but that’s not really the thing I’m probing here.

The point I’m making is that the simple: it’s not my body, not my choice does not preclude 9 month abortions, so it’s an overly simplistic approach that simply avoids the moral argument.

Also concept of men not being involved in a moral argument that doesn’t directly impact them is not logically sustainable in this instance. At some point during pregnancy, cells become a life. And so there is surely a moral obligation to that life? If you were talking menopause or something like that, then I’d agree, her body, her choice and I stay out of it.

To be clear, I find the pro life standpoint challenging to resolve too. That’s why I find it interesting, it’s a complicated moral debate, where both of the most vociferous proponents over simplify.

You'll find some people advocating that pedophilia be included under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. Batshit minority viewpoints are just that and some really should be dismissed out of hand. At will abortion right up to birth would fall under that

Very late term abortions only really occur where there's medical risk to the mother and that's entirely fair enough, a potential life shouldn't outweigh a fully realised one. Plenty of countries have codified that.

Men can try and talk about morality if they want, but the physicality of pregnancy overrules them. If a woman doesn't want it, then all our pontificating should be rather moot. The idea of someone being forced to go to term because people who don't have to live with the experience decided they aren't comfortable with the alternative is pretty abhorrent to me. On top of the 9 months of being pregnant, which is no picnic, there's a non-zero risk of death for the mother even in a regular pregnancy to say nothing of the irreversible physical changes it induces, not all of which are related to the physical trauma of giving birth.

So, in a normal pregnancy, when do you find it morally acceptable for an abortion?

From what I've read, a fetus starts feeling pain around 25 - 30 weeks and I'm not big on causing pain unecessarily be that to a woodlouse or a deer.

I'd say 24 - 26 weeks (6 months) is ample time to have decided whether or not you actually want a kid, so those two dovetail.

I have very mixed feelings. Broadly I support a woman's right to choose, however as I was born in the sixties and given up for adoption I am aware there was a strong possibility I might never have existed.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 12:07 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 11:10 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 10:51 am

You'll find some people advocating that pedophilia be included under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. Batshit minority viewpoints are just that and some really should be dismissed out of hand. At will abortion right up to birth would fall under that

Very late term abortions only really occur where there's medical risk to the mother and that's entirely fair enough, a potential life shouldn't outweigh a fully realised one. Plenty of countries have codified that.

Men can try and talk about morality if they want, but the physicality of pregnancy overrules them. If a woman doesn't want it, then all our pontificating should be rather moot. The idea of someone being forced to go to term because people who don't have to live with the experience decided they aren't comfortable with the alternative is pretty abhorrent to me. On top of the 9 months of being pregnant, which is no picnic, there's a non-zero risk of death for the mother even in a regular pregnancy to say nothing of the irreversible physical changes it induces, not all of which are related to the physical trauma of giving birth.

So, in a normal pregnancy, when do you find it morally acceptable for an abortion?

From what I've read, a fetus starts feeling pain around 25 - 30 weeks and I'm not big on causing pain unecessarily be that to a woodlouse or a deer.

I'd say 24 - 26 weeks (6 months) is ample time to have decided whether or not you actually want a kid, so those two dovetail.

Yeah, I’ve settled at about 24 weeks too, as that’s when the brain starts to develop the higher functions.

My absolute preference would be a case by case scan of the foetus brain to see whether the higher functions have developed, as timeframes in pregnancy seem a touch arbitrary when there’s a cliff edge based upon time.