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The French Revolution was the true birth of Democracy in the modern world and should be celebrated by all.

Thank you France.

That wasn’t a democracy, though. Women weren’t allowed to vote. To determine the true birthplace of democracy you have to ascertain the nation that gave women that right.

Fair point but which country was the first to recognise the rights of all, including LGBTQ?

To this day there aren't many.

Setting the ball rolling from Feudal/Monarchic systems set many people free and created the intellectual space for us to evolve into the universal freedoms we take for granted today.

Powers of the time like the British Empire were terrified by the French Revolution and actively tried to reverse it. Thankfully they failed.

Democracy means everyone gets a vote.

France can take credit for coming up with the croissant, and developing the thrilling documentaries of Jacque Cousteau.

But democracy is a New Zealand invention.

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:57 am Democracy means everyone gets a vote.

France can take credit for coming up with the croissant, and developing the thrilling documentaries of Jacque Cousteau.

But democracy is a New Zealand invention.

Democracy isn't an absolutism though, it's a process.

Not to take anything away from NZ's forward-thinking decision but I'm not sure many scholars would agree with that last assertion.

Well you either have democracy or you haven’t. If half your population can’t vote, what, you’re “half way there”?

Democracy was born when New Zealand gave women the vote. Not before.

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:53 am Well you either have democracy or you haven’t. If half your population can’t vote, what, you’re “half way there”?

Democracy was born when New Zealand gave women the vote. Not before.

Wrong, it was Iceland, but NZ is in the top 5 of the most democratic countries while France isn't even in the top25.

Zig wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:10 am The French Revolution was the true birth of Democracy in the modern world and should be celebrated by all.

Thank you France.

Thank you, , then came Napoleon.....

Errugbi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:29 am

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:53 am Well you either have democracy or you haven’t. If half your population can’t vote, what, you’re “half way there”?

Democracy was born when New Zealand gave women the vote. Not before.

Wrong, it was Iceland, but NZ is in the top 5 of the most democratic countries while France isn't even in the top25.

You can’t give half the population a vote and call it democracy, sorry.

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:46 pm

Errugbi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:29 am

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:53 am Well you either have democracy or you haven’t. If half your population can’t vote, what, you’re “half way there”?

Democracy was born when New Zealand gave women the vote. Not before.

Wrong, it was Iceland, but NZ is in the top 5 of the most democratic countries while France isn't even in the top25.

You can’t give half the population a vote and call it democracy, sorry.

First you need to rigidly oppress any indigenous peoples, only then can you set about making a democracy

Enough of all that.....

Swiss Cantons in 13th century were the first true representative democracy i would argue

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:39 pm
First you need to rigidly oppress any indigenous peoples, only then can you set about making a democracy

I'm not claiming New Zealand is perfect. That would be too grandiose a claim. I'm just claiming it as the birthplace of democracy.

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:56 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:39 pm
First you need to rigidly oppress any indigenous peoples, only then can you set about making a democracy

I'm not claiming New Zealand is perfect. That would be too grandiose a claim. I'm just claiming it as the birthplace of democracy.

It'd be in the conversation, as would France with the wider voter, Britain with the Magna Carta. But to suggest democracy has to be determined by allowing everyone to vote is to concede only a limited definition of the majority. I'd trust most people would allow everyone being allowed to vote, probably with some age qualifier, is the best version of democracy so far, but it's only one version.

I might go with Magna Carta as the birth of democracy, and really you could easily argue that was only an outcome of an earlier birth

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:56 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:39 pm
First you need to rigidly oppress any indigenous peoples, only then can you set about making a democracy

I'm not claiming New Zealand is perfect. That would be too grandiose a claim. I'm just claiming it as the birthplace of democracy.

Between the 46 and 35 parallels maybe .

Bon celebrationes, ma leeetle gallic cuzzins!

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:26 pm
It'd be in the conversation, as would France with the wider voter, Britain with the Magna Carta. But to suggest democracy has to be determined by allowing everyone to vote is to concede only a limited definition of the majority. I'd trust most people would allow everyone being allowed to vote, probably with some age qualifier, is the best version of democracy so far, but it's only one version.

That's what democracy is. Giving a bunch of men in berets a vote, or King John letting his barons have a bit more say. Those aren't democracy.

Meh. Real party was 2 days ago, celebrating St.Zidane vs Brasil.

FujiKiwi wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:50 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:26 pm
It'd be in the conversation, as would France with the wider voter, Britain with the Magna Carta. But to suggest democracy has to be determined by allowing everyone to vote is to concede only a limited definition of the majority. I'd trust most people would allow everyone being allowed to vote, probably with some age qualifier, is the best version of democracy so far, but it's only one version.

That's what democracy is. Giving a bunch of men in berets a vote, or King John letting his barons have a bit more say. Those aren't democracy.

Depends on what you allow as a democracy/majority. There are uses of both words which would allow for much earlier claims than NZ's, granted some might prefer to refer to something like Magna Carta as an inchoative step that preceded the actual birth

They seek him here,
They seek him there,
Those Fwenchies seek him everywhere.
Is he in heaven?
Is he in hell?
That damned elusive pimpernel.