NPR

I know suicide amongst people (people with gender disphoria) is astronomic.
If the death rates were cancer, we would be throwing the kitchen sink at it, and trying to "cure" (not sure cure is the right word..alleviate it's societal harms?) it.
I know that the chromosome thing isn't as cut and dried as people think.

Biological gender and gender identity are two very distinct concepts. Biological gender or sex refers to the anatomy and physiology of a human body, whereas gender identity is influenced by a multitude of factors, most of which we don’t fully understand.


I know when people are treated fairly and with kindness, and have their needs met, their gender, sexuality etc is the least interesting thing about them.

Sorry, this was jnbthe press today, re Scotlands current policy change.

I knew one transvestite in my life (from Beaufort, Ebbw Vale, a guy whole looked nothing like a girl and used to wear blue shiney short shorts..and people used to mock the shit out of him). Look he looked exactly like buffalo bill in silence of lambs. Couldn't help it etc. I talked to him for ages in beaufort ballroom.. Lovely chap. Wanted to be a girl. So what.
He moved away in the end, as no one would employ him.

I mean it would be very very easy to imagine he topped himself, the shit he used to get.
So where are you all?
Care, don't care, hate them, love them, want to inflict your morals and principles right into the centre of their existences on this pointless rock, to give your own pointless existence a little meaning?

Really confused on it to be honest.

Live and let live is my basic policy, it does me no harm. My issue comes in how we look at it, if there's no underlying genetic issue in place, I want to know why it's not treated in the same way as other body dysmorphia, where people undergo treatment to stop feeling the way they do, rather than effectively encouraging it. At the same time I know a few transgender people who are far happier now.

When it comes to sport though, there's a distinct advantage to developing male, even after hormone treatments etc, that remains. I don't think transgender m to f, should be able to compete in a professional or elite level. However efforts should be made to integrate wherever else possible. Contact sports are tough though.

Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:33 pm I know suicide amongst people (people with gender disphoria) is astronomic.
If the death rates were cancer, we would be throwing the kitchen sink at it, and trying to "cure" (not sure cure is the right word..alleviate it's societal harms?) it.
I know that the chromosome thing isn't as cut and dried as people think.

Biological gender and gender identity are two very distinct concepts. Biological gender or sex refers to the anatomy and physiology of a human body, whereas gender identity is influenced by a multitude of factors, most of which we don’t fully understand.


I know when people are treated fairly and with kindness, and have their needs met, their gender, sexuality etc is the least interesting thing about them.

Sorry, this was jnbthe press today, re Scotlands current policy change.

I knew one transvestite in my life (from Beaufort, Ebbw Vale, a guy whole looked nothing like a girl and used to wear blue shiney short shorts..and people used to mock the shit out of him). Look he looked exactly like buffalo bill in silence of lambs. Couldn't help it etc. I talked to him for ages in beaufort ballroom.. Lovely chap. Wanted to be a girl. So what.
He moved away in the end, as no one would employ him.

I mean it would be very very easy to imagine he topped himself, the shit he used to get.
So where are you all?
Care, don't care, hate them, love them, want to inflict your morals and principles right into the centre of their existences on this rock?

Mental health does not discriminate.

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:42 pm Really confused on it to be honest.

Live and let live is my basic policy, it does me no harm. My issue comes in how we look at it, if there's no underlying genetic issue in place, I want to know why it's not treated in the same way as other body dysmorphia, where people undergo treatment to stop feeling the way they do, rather than effectively encouraging it. At the same time I know a few transgender people who are far happier now.

When it comes to sport though, there's a distinct advantage to developing male, even after hormone treatments etc, that remains. I don't think transgender m to f, should be able to compete in a professional or elite level. However efforts should be made to integrate wherever else possible. Contact sports are tough though.

I think it should be compete, full stop. Anything friendly or recreational, whatever. But where there's a level of competition and their participation could be force out women, that's not right. No amount of hormone therapy has yet restructured a skeleton.

Like you. It doesn't really impact my life and I want people to be treated well and fairly, but purely from an intellectual perspective it's a little baffling to me that there's pushback against it being considered a mental health issue. I've seen it argued that you can be trans without having gender disphoria. Even if the treatment is to go along with it and treat people as they identify, that level of dislocation from one's own physicality seems like some sort of mental illness. I also don't quite get why it's taken seriously, yet the idea of being transracial is ridiculed. Fundamentally, it seems to me, they are both instances where someone feels their identity is at odds with their biological body.

Things like claiming to be non-binary, but still outwardly presenting as typically male or female and including gendered pronouns like she and he alongside they strikes me as a bit faddish. It's eminental reversible, like something people, especially young people, can try on for a bit and discard when they want to. Given that the idea of binary gendered traits and behaviour is pretty retrogressive - anyone male or female can exhibit whatever behaviour or traits is what I was taught - I don't really understand the basis by which someone decides they're neither male or female.

Neo-pronouns like hir or ze are attention seeking. The majority seem to get by perfectly fine with they.

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:42 pm Really confused on it to be honest.

This.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:34 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:42 pm Really confused on it to be honest.

This.

+2

I've only met one transperson - who was born a man but with no testosterone. Her decision to live as a woman was therefore totally understandable and offensive (you would think) to no one.

I've never been convinced that encouraging under 18s to take life changing decisions is a good idea on any topic let alone one that can leave them infertile, though I wonder how often this actually happens compared to what is whipped up in the press.

With very limited exceptions, biological men should not play women's sports and it makes a mockery of the hard work of women to reach the top to pretend that they are on a level playing field with biological men.

We should stop seriously indulging zir etc pronouns. The more that the issue is 'how a consenting adult wishes to live' rather than 'here is a bunch of stuff presented as fact that may not be, also my pronouns are xyz' the less contentious the discussion will be and all bar tiny groups of nutcases will move on with their lives. Most people are pretty tolerant, certainly on a personal basis.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:33 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:42 pm Really confused on it to be honest.

Live and let live is my basic policy, it does me no harm. My issue comes in how we look at it, if there's no underlying genetic issue in place, I want to know why it's not treated in the same way as other body dysmorphia, where people undergo treatment to stop feeling the way they do, rather than effectively encouraging it. At the same time I know a few transgender people who are far happier now.

When it comes to sport though, there's a distinct advantage to developing male, even after hormone treatments etc, that remains. I don't think transgender m to f, should be able to compete in a professional or elite level. However efforts should be made to integrate wherever else possible. Contact sports are tough though.

I think it should be compete, full stop. Anything friendly or recreational, whatever. But where there's a level of competition and their participation could be force out women, that's not right. No amount of hormone therapy has yet restructured a skeleton.

Like you. It doesn't really impact my life and I want people to be treated well and fairly, but purely from an intellectual perspective it's a little baffling to me that there's pushback against it being considered a mental health issue. I've seen it argued that you can be trans without having gender disphoria. Even if the treatment is to go along with it and treat people as they identify, that level of dislocation from one's own physicality seems like some sort of mental illness. I also don't quite get why it's taken seriously, yet the idea of being transracial is ridiculed. Fundamentally, it seems to me, they are both instances where someone feels their identity is at odds with their biological body.

Things like claiming to be non-binary, but still outwardly presenting as typically male or female and including gendered pronouns like she and he alongside they strikes me as a bit faddish. It's eminental reversible, like something people, especially young people, can try on for a bit and discard when they want to. Given that the idea of binary gendered traits and behaviour is pretty retrogressive - anyone male or female can exhibit whatever behaviour or traits is what I was taught - I don't really understand the basis by which someone decides they're neither male or female.

Neo-pronouns like hir or ze are attention seeking. The majority seem to get by perfectly fine with they.

This is something else that gets me too. We're supposed to be moving beyond gender roles etc, which I agree with, so by what means do you feel more male/female if there aren't typical attitudes or behaviours to judge it by? But that could easily be my ignorance of the subject talking and there's a lot more to it (obviously there is).

I don't care how "zir" some person wants to be, just so long as they don't freak-out when someone gets it wrong. Messing up a pronoun is not abuse.

I’m too old white and male to fully understand it, but I’m very much live and let live.

I do notice that the usual thing of portraying a disadvantaged group as in some way perverted or deviant is there though. In exactly the same way it was for gay people in the seventies and eighties, black people during the civil rights movement and suffragettes.

I think one of the things that’s unique about it is some of the space they’re claiming comes from rights won previously by another disadvantaged group (women). I think this is key to why it’s such a bitter argument.

It's schizophrenia with an advertising budget.

I don't understand, I'm live and let live. However, there's something to be said about not letting born males compete in female sport.

It's a moral panic cooked up by the right wing press otherwise. Daily we get stories on a tiny, tiny minority of the population. Very effective too, my dad and step mum who worked with a transvestite and always liked her have been radicalised by it all.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:21 pm I don't understand, I'm live and let live. However, there's something to be said about not letting born males compete in female sport.

It's a moral panic cooked up by the right wing press otherwise. Daily we get stories on a tiny, tiny minority of the population. Very effective too, my dad and step mum who worked with a transvestite and always liked her have been radicalised by it all.

WRT sport I think anyone who went through puberty as a male has an advantage in physical strength, size etc.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:12 pm I don't care how "zir" some person wants to be, just so long as they don't freak-out when someone gets it wrong. Messing up a pronoun is not abuse.

Work with a young person who was employed as (and introduced to everyone) as a girl but identifies as a boy.
Apologised after I used wrong pronoun and was thanked but told that they wouldn't have taken a job with mostly men in 50s and 60s if offended

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:15 pm I’m too old white and male to fully understand it, but I’m very much live and let live.

I do notice that the usual thing of portraying a disadvantaged group as in some way perverted or deviant is there though. In exactly the same way it was for gay people in the seventies and eighties, black people during the civil rights movement and suffragettes.

I think one of the things that’s unique about it is some of the space they’re claiming comes from rights won previously by another disadvantaged group (women). I think this is key to why it’s such a bitter argument.

Always fascinated by the 'too white to get it' angle - famously this issue is front and centre in majority non-white countries...

The thread needs more ignorant right wing types accusing transgender people of being sexual predators.

I honestly don't know nor care about it, folk can do what they want as far as I'm concerned as long as they are nice folk and treat others with respect and dignity. Anyone who I have met that fits roughly into this category, that I was aware of, were good people who I liked and got on with. I honestly didn't feel concerned with them in the least and I don't get why folk get all wound up about others who want to be different gender to that which they were born. I suspect there is a bit of self projection going on and it says more about their own confidence in their own sexuality than anything else.

I had an argument with a mate recently who was all against this 'trans nonsense' and toilets being used my males and females etc until I pointed out to him he uses shared toilets every time he flies. Ditto we skied a lot in Europe and almost everywhere had shared toilets etc and never a problem. He used the safety argument so I then asked him for an example he knew about of a trans person committing a sexual crime or similar - nothing - yet those crimes he was aware of were all committed by predominately middle aged white men. I asked him why he was all hot up about it and then he got angry when confronted and more so when I suggested his prejudice was all of his own making.

TBH I am more concerned by the likes of Piers Morgan and Jeremy Clarkson and their behaviour and words, their phoney misogynistic masculinity, their intent to degrade and diminish others rights and their desire to stoke up a phoney war on trans/gay issues. I wouldn't use the likes of The Daily Heil, Naziexpress and Shitsun as bog roll. I can't help but think this is being stoked up and funded by the same dark, dodgy, right wing religious zealots that are behind the push to limit/ban abortions, send migrants to Rwanda, etc. They are desperate for a war on minority groups and this seems fairly easy pickings for them?

Having said all the above eligibility for sports is problematic given the inherent physiological differences and requires brains bigger than mine to resolve but in the scheme of things it is no more than a very very few cases around the world. I leave that to the experts in each sport.

Porn yes

Sports no

dabooldawg wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:50 pm Porn yes

Sports no

More succinct than my response! I admire your brevity.

I don’t care about preferred pronouns. I’d abide by them if I remember. But don’t pull me up on it if I get it wrong, because you are the exception to the norm.

Speaking as a father and husband - But they can absolutely fuck off trying to use a women’s toilets if they have meat and veg.

As for sport, no way should they compete in women’s sport if born as a biological male.




(That’s the best I can muster Fester).

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:45 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:15 pm I’m too old white and male to fully understand it, but I’m very much live and let live.

I do notice that the usual thing of portraying a disadvantaged group as in some way perverted or deviant is there though. In exactly the same way it was for gay people in the seventies and eighties, black people during the civil rights movement and suffragettes.

I think one of the things that’s unique about it is some of the space they’re claiming comes from rights won previously by another disadvantaged group (women). I think this is key to why it’s such a bitter argument.

Always fascinated by the 'too white to get it' angle - famously this issue is front and centre in majority non-white countries...

From my point of view it’s an acknowledgement of the privilege of being white and male, so that I acknowledge that I don’t have lived experience of discrimination.

https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/samo ... rd-gender/

Samoa is interesting as there culture recognises gender fluidity one of the tuilagi scions takes on this identity

https://www.ruck.co.uk/getting-to-know- ... rothers/3/

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:30 pm https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/samo ... rd-gender/

Samoa is interesting as there culture recognises gender fluidity one of the tuilagi scions takes on this identity

https://www.ruck.co.uk/getting-to-know- ... rothers/3/

Imagine waking up next to her in the morning...

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:59 pmWe should stop seriously indulging zir etc pronouns.

Is this something you've had to do a lot, do you reckon? I can't help but feel that a lot of these kinds of complaints are barely-even-third-hand kneejerk reactions to something people have read or heard about. As someone who spends a lot of time around queer people in real life and online, including plenty of gender fluid and non binary types, I can only say it's astonishingly rare to come across someone who isn't identifying as one of he/she/they. Much like the complaints about trans women calling people misogynists for not wanting to have sex with them (every single trans woman I know is far more bothered about being fetishised), I feel like it's a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage being put on a pedestal; far greater problems are ignored.


A lot of the "debate" on this tends to ignore the history of trans people, definitely ignores the existence of trans men outside of panic articles about it being a trend for young girls, and almost never involves actual trans people being given a platform. The UK is notoriously bad for how skewed the media is on trans rights.

A lot of the noise around this is driven by far right press / media looking to stir shit.

Personally I know one trans person who tried to join our rugby club.

Unfortunately He did not stay he was struggling with fitness.

Seriously I believe they have enough issues without "normal" people shitting on them.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:34 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:59 pmWe should stop seriously indulging zir etc pronouns.

Is this something you've had to do a lot, do you reckon? I can't help but feel that a lot of these kinds of complaints are barely-even-third-hand kneejerk reactions to something people have read or heard about. As someone who spends a lot of time around queer people in real life and online, including plenty of gender fluid and non binary types, I can only say it's astonishingly rare to come across someone who isn't identifying as one of he/she/they. Much like the complaints about trans women calling people misogynists for not wanting to have sex with them (every single trans woman I know is far more bothered about being fetishised), I feel like it's a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage being put on a pedestal; far greater problems are ignored.


A lot of the "debate" on this tends to ignore the history of trans people, definitely ignores the existence of trans men outside of panic articles about it being a trend for young girls, and almost never involves actual trans people being given a platform. The UK is notoriously bad for how skewed the media is on trans rights.

Thin end of the wedge.

If something is ridiculous you call it out don't you.

laurent wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:55 pm A lot of the noise around this is driven by far right press / media looking to stir shit.

Personally I know one trans person who tried to join our rugby club.

Unfortunately He did not stay he was struggling with fitness.

Seriously I believe they have enough issues without "normal" people shitting on them.

It's exactly that - creating an "other" to rail against. The current UK government in particular is stoking a so-called "culture war" and the gullible buy it.

Yeah, there is far too much equality and one of the most marginalised minority groups in the country is likely to overthrow our entire society right enough.

FFS.

How many people in the UK does this affect out of curiosity?

Personally I have no issue with folks doing whatever but it does seem to get a disproportionate amount of attention given by the media.

Did a course with a couple of trannies and they were sound. Didn't feel quite right referring to them as "women" since both still had their meat and two veg, but they were both planning to get the operation so fair play to them. The entitled ones who insist that they be allowed to compete in ladies events/ teams can fuck right off.

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:23 pm How many people in the UK does this affect out of curiosity?

Personally I have no issue with folks doing whatever but it does seem to get a disproportionate amount of attention given by the media.

No one really knows, but there are estimates that around 1% of the population of the UK have gender dysphoria or gender identity issues. There is a distinction to be made between trans and non-binary;

https://www.rainbow-project.org/what-we ... on-binary/


The halfwits conflate people who are going through these issues with sexual predators and think it's all about toilets and changing rooms.

Autism occurs at a rate of around 24% among those with gender issues, compared with 5% who do not have this condition
Autism and gender dysphoria can co-occur, but it’s a long way from being the norm in that community

My view is that it is not a question of a man in a woman's body or vice versa, but that we define 'man' and 'woman' too tightly. People who do not fit in those definitions are left with one option i.e. man in woman's body etc, when in fact the issue is that the universe of attributes that occur in men and women are infinite, and we need to accept that a physical man or woman can display an enormous variety of behaviours not constrained by societal norms and expectations.

I dont give a shit how anyone wishes to lead their life, it's got fuck all to do with me and as long as their lifestyle/choices aren't foisted upon me why should I?

It's not like they're religious or vegan nutters...

Interesting, it seems most here (having read all the posts at least 0 times) honestly don't give a shit.


Sunak is currently telling the Scots that "lots of people" disagree and have a strong opinion. And so he is reaching (like straight away) for the nuclear option.


Two days ago, this madateless twat was telling a select committee that his priority is listening and talking to the Scots.

Now he is going to slam the supreme court in their faces.

Honestly, England, just fuck off.

I don't want Michelle here in a women's jail or loo's or changing rooms.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... s-9148559/
A rapist has been jailed following an attack on a woman in Godmanchester.

Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, a transgender individual who identifies as a female but has not undergone surgery, raped the woman at the same address on May 16 last year.

Also have you seen how many court cases primark have had since they've changed to mixed sex changing rooms. Bloody Voyeur's exploiting it.

If men would behave themselves then there wouldn't be any issues. Men are responsible for 92% of violent convictions and 99.2% of Sex crime convictions. MOJ source for that.

Male pattern violence doesn't change with choosing another identity.

Live how you want I don't care but there are issues to be worked through.

BnM wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:24 pm I don't want Michelle here in a women's jail or loo's or changing rooms.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... s-9148559/
A rapist has been jailed following an attack on a woman in Godmanchester.

Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, a transgender individual who identifies as a female but has not undergone surgery, raped the woman at the same address on May 16 last year.

Also have you seen how many court cases primark have had since they've changed to mixed sex changing rooms. Bloody Voyeur's exploiting it.

If men would behave themselves then there wouldn't be any issues. Men are responsible for 92% of violent convictions and 99.2% of Sex crime convictions. MOJ source for that.

Male pattern violence doesn't change with choosing another identity.

Live how you want I don't care but there are issues to be worked through.

Looks like the men are calling you a halfwit, and prejudiced.

I mean how dare you feel for your safety in the vicinity of cocks out in women’s privacy areas!

Bigot !

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:01 am The halfwits conflate people who are going through these issues with sexual predators and think it's all about toilets and changing rooms.

dpedin wrote: I had an argument with a mate recently who was all against this 'trans nonsense' and toilets being used my males and females etc until I pointed out to him he uses shared toilets every time he flies. Ditto we skied a lot in Europe and almost everywhere had shared toilets etc and never a problem. He used the safety argument so I then asked him for an example he knew about of a trans person committing a sexual crime or similar - nothing - yet those crimes he was aware of were all committed by predominately middle aged white men. I asked him why he was all hot up about it and then he got angry when confronted and more so when I suggested his prejudice was all of his own making.

I'm all for people living as they want as long as they don't adversely affect others. On the subject of gender specifically it's like Scottish independence for me - neither will make a difference to my life so again, whatever is best for the most affected. I can't claim to know what that is on either score.

As far as I am concerned there are only two genders, male and female, the rest is a choice of lifestyle and I couldn't care less if people are straight, bi, gay, trans or whatever fruit they want to be in any particular day.

What I do care about is there will be a very small minority who will abuse their adopted whatever lifestyle they choose to abuse innocent, men women and children. If they do then severe punishment should be given out to them.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:34 pm

BnM wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:24 pm I don't want Michelle here in a women's jail or loo's or changing rooms.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... s-9148559/
A rapist has been jailed following an attack on a woman in Godmanchester.

Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, a transgender individual who identifies as a female but has not undergone surgery, raped the woman at the same address on May 16 last year.

Also have you seen how many court cases primark have had since they've changed to mixed sex changing rooms. Bloody Voyeur's exploiting it.

If men would behave themselves then there wouldn't be any issues. Men are responsible for 92% of violent convictions and 99.2% of Sex crime convictions. MOJ source for that.

Male pattern violence doesn't change with choosing another identity.

Live how you want I don't care but there are issues to be worked through.

Looks like the men are calling you a halfwit, and prejudiced.

I mean how dare you feel for your safety in the vicinity of cocks out in women’s privacy areas!

Bigot !

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:01 am The halfwits conflate people who are going through these issues with sexual predators and think it's all about toilets and changing rooms.

dpedin wrote: I had an argument with a mate recently who was all against this 'trans nonsense' and toilets being used my males and females etc until I pointed out to him he uses shared toilets every time he flies. Ditto we skied a lot in Europe and almost everywhere had shared toilets etc and never a problem. He used the safety argument so I then asked him for an example he knew about of a trans person committing a sexual crime or similar - nothing - yet those crimes he was aware of were all committed by predominately middle aged white men. I asked him why he was all hot up about it and then he got angry when confronted and more so when I suggested his prejudice was all of his own making.

I've only got 5 minutes, but what I took from BnM's post is that

"Men are responsible for 92% of violent convictions and 99.2% of Sex crime convictions."

Sexual predators will find a way to commit their crimes, whether through the priesthood, sports coaching, random police officers using the power of their profession or whatever. The fact that men are the overwhelming perpetrators of these crimes is a horrible fact.

I don't think that means all men are potential rapists, nor do I think that all trans people are potential sexual predators. In fact statistics show that they are far more likely to be the victims of sexual assault than the general population.

I'll come back to this topic when I have more time, but one thing I will say on the stat that "Men are responsible for 99.2% of Sex crime convictions." is that these convictions are a drop in the ocean of the crimes that are perpetrated by predatory men.

Great to see YMX doing his level best to turn this into a proper shit fight. Absolute class act as always.