NPR

Gatland's Lions team: Hugo Keenan (Ireland), Duhan van der Merwe (Scotland), Huw Jones (Scotland), Sione Tuipulotu (Scotland), James Lowe (Ireland); Jonathan Sexton (Ireland, capt), Jamison Gibson-Park (Ireland); Ellis Genge (England), Dan Sheehan (Ireland), Tadgh Furlong (Ireland), James Ryan (Ireland), Maro Itoje (England), Jack Conan (Ireland), Josh van der Flier (Ireland), Caelen Doris (Ireland).

Replacements: George Turner (Scotland), Andrew Porter (Ireland), Zander Fagerson (Scotland). Jonny Gray (Scotland), James Ritchie (Scotland), Alex Mitchell (England), Owen Farrell (England). Robbie Henshaw (Ireland).

Akkerman wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:33 pmtoo many welsh

GogLais wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:11 pm

Akkerman wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:33 pmtoo many welsh

He’s only trying to get the job.

James Ryan
We wanted to take him on the Lions tour in 21 but he was unavailable for personal reasons

iarmhí wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:35 pm He's clearly trolling the Scots as we all know VDM, Jones and Tuipolotu would be replaced by Lee Byrne, Lee Davies and another past it Welsh journeyman push come to shove.

iarmhí wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:35 pm He's clearly trolling the Scots as we all know VDM, Jones and Tuipolotu would be replaced by Lee Byrne, Lee Davies and another past it Welsh journeyman push come to shove.

GogLais wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:05 pm

iarmhí wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:35 pm He's clearly trolling the Scots as we all know VDM, Jones and Tuipolotu would be replaced by Lee Byrne, Lee Davies and another past it Welsh journeyman push come to shove.

Plenty of life left in Jonathan Davies.

GogLais wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:05 pm

iarmhí wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:35 pm He's clearly trolling the Scots as we all know VDM, Jones and Tuipolotu would be replaced by Lee Byrne, Lee Davies and another past it Welsh journeyman push come to shove.

Plenty of life left in Jonathan Davies.

Yr Alban wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:13 am Some bizarre choices. Itoje should be nowhere near a Lions team on recent form. I won’t argue for Richie Gray to replace him, but someone needs to. Richie is currently way ahead of Jonny, Schoeman deserves a call up more than Fagerson (different position I accept) and I’m sorry, but Russell over Farrell any day of the week.

SaintK wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:09 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:13 am Some bizarre choices. Itoje should be nowhere near a Lions team on recent form. I won’t argue for Richie Gray to replace him, but someone needs to. Richie is currently way ahead of Jonny, Schoeman deserves a call up more than Fagerson (different position I accept) and I’m sorry, but Russell over Farrell any day of the week.

Gatland only selected players that were fit to play this weekend as stated in his article. Gray (R) is injured.
Agree with regards to Itoje, his form for England has fallen off a cliff

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:24 pm
Thought this was a very interesting snippet and differs quite a bit from what was said at the time:

James Ryan
We wanted to take him on the Lions tour in 21 but he was unavailable for personal reasons

Could have sworn at the time Gatland said he wasn't physical enough.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:44 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:24 pm
Thought this was a very interesting snippet and differs quite a bit from what was said at the time:

James Ryan
We wanted to take him on the Lions tour in 21 but he was unavailable for personal reasons

Could have sworn at the time Gatland said he wasn't physical enough.

Yeah. Gatland personally didn't rate him - That's the reason

Line6 HXFX wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:27 am Less Welsh players the better, least we won't have a lions hangover season and be completely devoid of form and fitness for 18 months after.

Wales haven't won a six nations after the lions tours in the Pro Era and usually come bottom,, and also get destroyed in the Autunn internationals in the post lions season, mainly because the players give f'kig everything for the Lions ("this is your everest boys") and even put off surguries and ignore injuries to increase their stock value, by being a Lion.
And yes I realise this year when they traditionally bounce back, from the Lions tours and from putting their best players through the Lions mincer hasn't exactly gone to plan, but ifvthere was a Lions tour last summer, and the best Welsh players played on it.. it would have been a f'k of a lot worse.

So this Lions shit show is awful if you are a Welsh fan. One could even argue it is pointless following Wales at international Rugby because of these tours..

First thing Wales need to do to rebuild is get the fark out of it.

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:24 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:27 am Less Welsh players the better, least we won't have a lions hangover season and be completely devoid of form and fitness for 18 months after.

Wales haven't won a six nations after the lions tours in the Pro Era and usually come bottom,, and also get destroyed in the Autunn internationals in the post lions season, mainly because the players give f'kig everything for the Lions ("this is your everest boys") and even put off surguries and ignore injuries to increase their stock value, by being a Lion.
And yes I realise this year when they traditionally bounce back, from the Lions tours and from putting their best players through the Lions mincer hasn't exactly gone to plan, but ifvthere was a Lions tour last summer, and the best Welsh players played on it.. it would have been a f'k of a lot worse.

So this Lions shit show is awful if you are a Welsh fan. One could even argue it is pointless following Wales at international Rugby because of these tours..

First thing Wales need to do to rebuild is get the fark out of it.

You could argue that Lions tours have the opposite effect on Scottish players. They go on the tour and realise that actually the guys from the other teams aren’t way better than them after all. That’s why the years when none of our players got picked were so frustrating. The 1989 tour had a significant influence on the 1990 GS.

Having said that, Hamish Watson hasn’t looked like the same player since the tour

Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:20 am Jesus its a sad day if home nations fans start arguing for their players not getting picked. The rugby internet would grind to a halt.

Stick a fork in it, its done.

GogLais wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:45 am

Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:20 am Jesus its a sad day if home nations fans start arguing for their players not getting picked. The rugby internet would grind to a halt.

Stick a fork in it, its done.

I’ve seen this argument before once or twice. One day I’ll work out our average 6N position in post-Lions and other years. But not now.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:12 am I think the Lions are a great concept really fucking badly handled for a while now. The biggest problem they face is that for NH fans part of the excitement is going up against a traditional rugby superpower. For this to work, the traditional rugby superpowers need to be superpowers. This runs contrary to what we want outside of the Lions - we want everyone to be super competitive and for the NH sides to be on a par with the SH sides.

As we are firmly in the post-NZ-hegemony era of the sport, what are we currently looking forward to with the Lions? The best tour was 97, which was the last hurrah of the amateur era, and before England had become the professional juggernaut that won the 2003 world cup. 97 was a group of likeable players on a still fairly haphazard tour, with real drama and intrigue in the gruelling series of tour matches, and a genuine David vs Goliath matchup in the Tests where the Lions gave it everything to turn over their opponents. We won't ever get that again - no matter how good the opposition is. Professionalism has changed everything.

97 - last of the amateur era ethos, SA a genuine power a tier above any of the NH sides. All time classic.
2001 - England on the up as the NH side with a lead in the professionalism stakes, Australia the 99 WC champs and with their last great batch of players. The 2nd best tour of the pro era where most games mattered and the Test series was excellent.
2005 - Ruined by tour changes, Woodward's "professional" approach to the dirt-trackers, an injury glut, and damaged by both England's legacy as WC winners and the rest of the NH teams being so inconsistent. NZ were incredible and the Lions offered no resistance. The first properly rubbish pro tour.
2009 - Tour matches downgraded, the 97 spirit completely gone as everything was about the Tests. On paper this should've been up there with 97 series. The Test series itself was pretty good but the rest of it was a waste of time.
2013 - Lions favourites, Australia pretty mediocre. Boring as shit tour with a really negative approach on the field and to selection. Lions struggled to beat an inferior Australia side. Not a great advert for the Lions.
2017 - horrible tour before the Tests. Miserable rugby from the Lions. Embarrassing selection decisions and Gatland using the Tour to further Welsh development offset by the series at least being close. Lions thumped in the first Test, snuck past 14-man NZ in the second, and drew the 3rd after an incomprehensible refereeing change of mind.
2021 - oh my god. An absolute abortion of a tour. Covid played its part but the most miserable, negative, mind-alteringly-dull approach taken by both teams made this practically unwatchable. It was a dreadful decision to have Gatland involved from the start and so it proved. If you'd wanted a tour designed to end the Lions, you'd struggle to come up with something more appropriate than this.


Professional rugby doesn't really do big upsets that often, especially not on a tour, and it usually demands pragmatism over romanticism. The Lions system works best where there is a romantic element to it, otherwise its grasping commercial roots are laid bare and it becomes a chore. The story of the Lions in the pro era has been one of slow-but-accelerating downfall from a high peak, where the money is paramount and the series result is used to justify ruining the rest of it. Modern rugby just doesn't seem to lend itself to the sort of tour and the sort of contests we hope for.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:51 am Almost every argument being put forward for the Lions harks back to 97, its time has been and gone.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:25 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:51 am Almost every argument being put forward for the Lions harks back to 97, its time has been and gone.

In the current format, probably. But then maybe the next tour is an absolute riot and we all wonder what the problem was.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:30 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:25 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:51 am Almost every argument being put forward for the Lions harks back to 97, its time has been and gone.

In the current format, probably. But then maybe the next tour is an absolute riot and we all wonder what the problem was.

Thing is though, following on from your first point, is there any of the home nations that wouldn't fancy beating Australia in a three match series? Even accounting for Wales' current state, they'd be disappointed to be whitewashed IMO

Yr Alban wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:24 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:27 am Less Welsh players the better, least we won't have a lions hangover season and be completely devoid of form and fitness for 18 months after.

Wales haven't won a six nations after the lions tours in the Pro Era and usually come bottom,, and also get destroyed in the Autunn internationals in the post lions season, mainly because the players give f'kig everything for the Lions ("this is your everest boys") and even put off surguries and ignore injuries to increase their stock value, by being a Lion.
And yes I realise this year when they traditionally bounce back, from the Lions tours and from putting their best players through the Lions mincer hasn't exactly gone to plan, but ifvthere was a Lions tour last summer, and the best Welsh players played on it.. it would have been a f'k of a lot worse.

So this Lions shit show is awful if you are a Welsh fan. One could even argue it is pointless following Wales at international Rugby because of these tours..

First thing Wales need to do to rebuild is get the fark out of it.

You could argue that Lions tours have the opposite effect on Scottish players. They go on the tour and realise that actually the guys from the other teams aren’t way better than them after all. That’s why the years when none of our players got picked were so frustrating. The 1989 tour had a significant influence on the 1990 GS.

Having said that, Hamish Watson hasn’t looked like the same player since the tour

EnergiseR2 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:05 pm A good few of us Irish thought Sexy and Ryan not getting picked was a blessing in disguise

Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:27 pm

EnergiseR2 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:05 pm A good few of us Irish thought Sexy and Ryan not getting picked was a blessing in disguise

Both were playing gash at the time tbf. Great to see both of them back with a bang now though.

C69 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:31 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:27 pm

EnergiseR2 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:05 pm A good few of us Irish thought Sexy and Ryan not getting picked was a blessing in disguise

Both were playing gash at the time tbf. Great to see both of them back with a bang now though.

Isn't Sexjism injured ?

C69 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:24 am I am officially adopting Ireland as my RWC team when Wales get knocked out.
It's what my Waterford and Wexford ancestors would have wanted.

EnergiseR2 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:25 am

GogLais wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:46 am

C69 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:24 am I am officially adopting Ireland as my RWC team when Wales get knocked out.
It's what my Waterford and Wexford ancestors would have wanted.

I don’t have such exotic connections. Scotland or France I suppose.

France is a kip and they treat their old people very poorly.

EnergiseR2 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:10 am I think it is a wise choice. The country least likely to set a truck full of sheep on fire is another measure I have heard of