Not Heineken Cup 23/24

[Brazil]

It really is a pointless tournament now.

[Jim Lahey]

Ulster's group

3 spankings and a plucky win against a shit Bath side is probably the best case scenario.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Pool 1: Saracens, Union Bordeaux-Begles, Bulls, Bristol Bears, Connacht, Lyon

Pool 2: Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath, Racing 92, Harlequins, Ulster

Pool 3: Munster, Aviron Bayonnais, Glasgow Warriors, Exeter Chiefs, Toulon, Northampton Saints

Pool 4: La Rochelle, Leinster, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers, Stormers, Sale Sharks

So how does this work? You play the other teams in your pool, but not if a team is from the same league? Erm, right? So the Stormers and Leinster won't play, but LaR, SF, Tigers and Sale Sharks. But not all of them?

[assfly]

What a ridiculous draw

[Slick]

"Fixtures will be determined using an algorithm which will take into consideration the pool draws, league calendar restrictions, individual club calendar restrictions and broadcast requirements."

Unfuckingbelievable nonsense

Is this real?

[PornDog]

Look, I'm not saying we should guillotine these motherfuckers, but we should definitely chop off their heads!

[Biffer]

Someone was saying they will consult with the top seeds about fixtures So in Leinsters group they go to Radge and say "Hear Radge you want to travel to SA or not...no?...sound'

Leinster aren't top seed

[OomStruisbaai]

Pool 1: Saracens, Union Bordeaux-Begles, Bulls, Bristol Bears, Connacht, Lyon

Pool 2: Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath, Racing 92, Harlequins, Ulster

Pool 3: Munster, Aviron Bayonnais, Glasgow Warriors, Exeter Chiefs, Toulon, Northampton Saints

Pool 4: La Rochelle, Leinster, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers, Stormers, Sale Sharks

So how does this work? You play the other teams in your pool, but not if a team is from the same league? Erm, right? So the Stormers and Leinster won't play, but LaR, SF, Tigers and Sale Sharks. But not all of them?

Stormers & Leinster will play LR, SF, Leister Tigers and Sale Sharks.

[SaintK]

No wonder Heineken have withdrawn their sponsorship
What a shitshow!!!!

[sockwithaticket]

Fuck me. How hard is it to put all four of last year's semi-finalists in different pools? They're so close to doing it anyway. Just swap Leinster for Connacht or La Rochelle for Bordeaux in Pool 1.


Saracens have an hilariously easy pool as it stands.

[fishfoodie]

"Fixtures will be determined using an algorithm which will take into consideration the pool draws, league calendar restrictions, individual club calendar restrictions and broadcast requirements."

Unfuckingbelievable nonsense

Is this real?

I think they need to get that German Octopus from a few years ago, because at least we know Octopii are highly intelligent & wouldn't have fucked up the draw this badly

[Biffer]

Unfuckingbelievable nonsense

Is this real?

I think they need to get that German Octopus from a few years ago, because at least we know Octopii are highly intelligent & wouldn't have fucked up the draw this badly

The plural of octopus is not octopi. Octopuses or octopodes.

[OomStruisbaai]

Actually good for Leinster and Stormers. Two of the non urc teams need to travel to Cape Town the other two to Dublin.

[Jim Lahey]

Ulster are fucked. Even if Mr Algorithim decides we get Racing and Toulouse both at home, and both of their packs all get red carded within the first 5 mins for a series of high tackles on Mike Lowry and we somehow manage to scrape a 6-5 win in both games, the rest of the group get to try and break the tournament points scoring record against Cardiff FFS. And we don't get that pleasure.

I'm out.

[OomStruisbaai]

Ulster are fucked. Even if Mr Algorithim decides we get Racing and Toulouse both at home, and both of their packs all get red carded within the first 5 mins for a series of high tackles on Mike Lowry and we somehow manage to scrape a 6-5 win in both games, the rest of the group get to try and break the tournament points scoring record against Cardiff FFS. And we don't get that pleasure.

I'm out.

Don't fear when Kitsie is near.

[Biffer]

Ulster are fucked. Even if Mr Algorithim decides we get Racing and Toulouse both at home, and both of their packs all get red carded within the first 5 mins for a series of high tackles on Mike Lowry and we somehow manage to scrape a 6-5 win in both games, the rest of the group get to try and break the tournament points scoring record against Cardiff FFS. And we don't get that pleasure.

I'm out.

Poor Ulster. Heart bleeds etc.

[fishfoodie]

I'll have to practice my scales before the visit of Sarries to the Sportsground.

boo, boo, boo, boo, BOOOOOOO

[Rhubarb & Custard]

NFL plays a conference/divisional system, and that's about as good as it gets at making money in the sporting world. So if rugby wants more money it naturally follows they shouldn't have a simple to understand structure that makes sense to rugby fans in Europe. And really it's just a good thing logical fallacies aren't called fallacies for a reason

[CM11]

Ulster are fucked. Even if Mr Algorithim decides we get Racing and Toulouse both at home, and both of their packs all get red carded within the first 5 mins for a series of high tackles on Mike Lowry and we somehow manage to scrape a 6-5 win in both games, the rest of the group get to try and break the tournament points scoring record against Cardiff FFS. And we don't get that pleasure.

I'm out.

4/6 qualify from each group. You should be able to manage that.

[Jim Lahey]

Ulster are fucked. Even if Mr Algorithim decides we get Racing and Toulouse both at home, and both of their packs all get red carded within the first 5 mins for a series of high tackles on Mike Lowry and we somehow manage to scrape a 6-5 win in both games, the rest of the group get to try and break the tournament points scoring record against Cardiff FFS. And we don't get that pleasure.

I'm out.

4/6 qualify from each group. You should be able to manage that.

Genuinely think its better we come 5th and go into the Parker Pen.

[CM11]

Ulster are fucked. Even if Mr Algorithim decides we get Racing and Toulouse both at home, and both of their packs all get red carded within the first 5 mins for a series of high tackles on Mike Lowry and we somehow manage to scrape a 6-5 win in both games, the rest of the group get to try and break the tournament points scoring record against Cardiff FFS. And we don't get that pleasure.

I'm out.

4/6 qualify from each group. You should be able to manage that.

Genuinely think its better we come 5th and go into the Parker Pen.

5th goes into Parker Pen?

[Jim Lahey]

4/6 qualify from each group. You should be able to manage that.

Genuinely think its better we come 5th and go into the Parker Pen.

5th goes into Parker Pen?

I think so.
Tbf the thing is that obtuse I might be wrong on that.

[OomStruisbaai]

Cheetahs and Black Lions are invited to the Challenge Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

It really is a pointless tournament now.

It's worse than that. It's consuming resources and is actually a detractor from the national comps.

[OomStruisbaai]

It really is a pointless tournament now.

It's worse than that. It's consuming resources and is actually a detractor from the national comps.

You lot are spoiled. SH isn't even close to NH when it come to competitions. I really enjoy the NH competitions. It force us to contract more players and create depth at franchise level. If SARU can get the CC dates right, our rugby will improve a lot. Currently we have three Premier division teams good enough to compete on URC level. For them to setup they need URC homes for their players. Their player movement yearly is a massive challenge.

[Jim Lahey]

Remember the good old days of Jauzion gliding through gaps and offloading, with Stuart Barnes and Miles Harrison creaming their pants on commentary, or Betsen putting in 40 hits a game in a brutal Biarittz pack with Yachvili bossing behind them, or that absolutely brutal set of back to back games between Leicester and Wasps just after the 03 world cup when Jonno and Dallagio were both out for blood, or the CFs quest for European glory after all those near misses?

What a time to be alive.

Lets remember the good times lads

[JM2K6]

It really is a pointless tournament now.

It's worse than that. It's consuming resources and is actually a detractor from the national comps.

You lot are spoiled. SH isn't even close to NH when it come to competitions. I really enjoy the NH competitions. It force us to contract more players and create depth at franchise level. If SARU can get the CC dates right, our rugby will improve a lot. Currently we have three Premier division teams good enough to compete on URC level. For them to setup they need URC homes for their players. Their player movement yearly is a massive challenge.

Yeah and we're annoyed that our competitions have been ruined and are somehow getting even worse. Not helping by the SH meathead teams being parachuted in.

[PornDog]

It's worse than that. It's consuming resources and is actually a detractor from the national comps.

You lot are spoiled. SH isn't even close to NH when it come to competitions. I really enjoy the NH competitions. It force us to contract more players and create depth at franchise level. If SARU can get the CC dates right, our rugby will improve a lot. Currently we have three Premier division teams good enough to compete on URC level. For them to setup they need URC homes for their players. Their player movement yearly is a massive challenge.

Yeah and we're annoyed that our competitions have been ruined and are somehow getting even worse. Not helping by the SH meathead teams being parachuted in.

You're complaining about the graffitti adorning the building that's engulfed in flames. I mean its a valid objection, but in terms of the problems this tournament now has that's at the very bottom of the list.

[JM2K6]

You lot are spoiled. SH isn't even close to NH when it come to competitions. I really enjoy the NH competitions. It force us to contract more players and create depth at franchise level. If SARU can get the CC dates right, our rugby will improve a lot. Currently we have three Premier division teams good enough to compete on URC level. For them to setup they need URC homes for their players. Their player movement yearly is a massive challenge.

Yeah and we're annoyed that our competitions have been ruined and are somehow getting even worse. Not helping by the SH meathead teams being parachuted in.

You're complaining about the graffitti adorning the building that's engulfed in flames. I mean its a valid objection, but in terms of the problems this tournament now has that's at the very bottom of the list.

I disagree. The fabric of the tournament is damaged by having the SA sides in there. Sports fans can forgive a lot of sins for a tournament heavy on tradition - see the 6N - but the SA presence fucks with that tradition quite dramatically AND adds the farcical nature of those away games.

[OomStruisbaai]

Yeah and we're annoyed that our competitions have been ruined and are somehow getting even worse. Not helping by the SH meathead teams being parachuted in.

You're complaining about the graffitti adorning the building that's engulfed in flames. I mean its a valid objection, but in terms of the problems this tournament now has that's at the very bottom of the list.

I disagree. The fabric of the tournament is damaged by having the SA sides in there. Sports fans can forgive a lot of sins for a tournament heavy on tradition - see the 6N - but the SA presence fucks with that tradition quite dramatically AND adds the farcical nature of those away games.

I thought you lot complain about the format? You sound like the local government blaming apartheid for their own short comings.

[Tichtheid]

I've really enjoyed the SA teams in the URC and in the Not-Heine, they bring another dimension to the tournaments. The idea that they play forwards-based ten man rugby is way off the mark.

I'm still not convinced they would add to the 6 Nations in the same way they've added to those competitions, but the genie is out the bottle now, it's a professional sport and what brings in most for all the interested parties is what will drive any further change, and to be honest any objection I have regarding the 6N is down to tradition.

Tradition isn't going to sustain professional rugby.

[PornDog]

Yeah and we're annoyed that our competitions have been ruined and are somehow getting even worse. Not helping by the SH meathead teams being parachuted in.

You're complaining about the graffitti adorning the building that's engulfed in flames. I mean its a valid objection, but in terms of the problems this tournament now has that's at the very bottom of the list.

I disagree. The fabric of the tournament is damaged by having the SA sides in there. Sports fans can forgive a lot of sins for a tournament heavy on tradition - see the 6N - but the SA presence fucks with that tradition quite dramatically AND adds the farcical nature of those away games.

the fabric of the tournament was a pile of torn rags that a homeless drunk would be ashamed to wear BEFORE the SA teams joined.

If we booted the SA teams out tomorrow, the tournament would still be a steaming pile of excrement - where a team really only has to play 3 games of any consequence to become champions of Europe.

I don't disagree with you that it A problem, but it is not THE problem!

I've really enjoyed the SA teams in the URC and in the Not-Heine, they bring another dimension to the tournaments. The idea that they play forwards-based ten man rugby is way off the mark.

I'm still not convinced they would add to the 6 Nations in the same way they've added to those competitions, but the genie is out the bottle now, it's a professional sport and what brings in most for all the interested parties is what will drive any further change, and to be honest any objection I have regarding the 6N is down to tradition.

Tradition isn't going to sustain professional rugby.

I agree with you on the URC, they've been a breath of fresh air, which has thankfully diluted that vile stench emanating from The Valleys, but I'm kind of with JM on their presence in the Euro comps. They're just kind of shoehorned in there and while the non-European element of them being in European comps is somewhat irksome, the issues around travel are very real. Money talks though.

[Torquemada 1420]

It's worse than that. It's consuming resources and is actually a detractor from the national comps.

You lot are spoiled. SH isn't even close to NH when it come to competitions. I really enjoy the NH competitions. It force us to contract more players and create depth at franchise level. If SARU can get the CC dates right, our rugby will improve a lot. Currently we have three Premier division teams good enough to compete on URC level. For them to setup they need URC homes for their players. Their player movement yearly is a massive challenge.

Yeah and we're annoyed that our competitions have been ruined and are somehow getting even worse. Not helping by the SH meathead teams being parachuted in.

I am on the fence a bit on this. For me, the real damage has been in the format change. The genius of the comp was the inter-national rivalry. You only played teams from other countries in your group and so all the Eng fans could support all the Eng clubs against the Fre etc. Who TF wants to see Brive v Narbonne or Tigers v Barf one week after having played the same team in your own league? I got to go to places I would never have gone from Ebbw Vale to Pests and met fans I would never have encountered.

Clearly, that's not the only change that had made the comp garbage.

I have always said the comp would have been better with 8 x 4 pools (scrap the Mickey Mouse) with no teams from the same country in a pool and only the group winners going through (that would force sides to try and win every pool game). There weren't enough teams to make that happen unless rugby awoke to the possibility of allowing national sides to compete from lower tiers (Spain, Germany. Even Georgia and Romania). The inclusion of the SA sides would address that issue.

[JM2K6]

I thought you lot complain about the format? You sound like the local government blaming apartheid for their own short comings.

Ah yes a very reasonable comparison by a very normal person. What the fuck

the fabric of the tournament was a pile of torn rags that a homeless drunk would be ashamed to wear BEFORE the SA teams joined.

If we booted the SA teams out tomorrow, the tournament would still be a steaming pile of excrement - where a team really only has to play 3 games of any consequence to become champions of Europe.

The fabric of the tournament is that it's a club-level yearly competition, accessible to travelling fans, with a group stage, a knockout stage, and a final, with European sides competing in it - European sides with a lot of history, a lot of tradition, and the inevitable correlation to the 6 Nations. The history and tradition make up a core part of the tournament. That's the fabric.

The format is fucked, I get that, no argument. But the format can be fixed, and it's only made worse by shoehorning in the Saffer teams. History and tradition are difficult things to recover or replace once you start messing with them. This tournament will never feel anything more than a ridiculously artificial commercial compromise while the Saffers are part of it. Fans of many clubs who want to see their sides play against the best team in the group - or god forbid, an away knockout game - when that team happens to be in Durban or whatever - are getting fucked. The "home" clubs are getting fucked. It's not a quality argument, I enjoy how good the sides are and I'm sure they'll win the tournament soon, but it'll be completely meaningless. The Crusaders would win it too. So what?

[OomStruisbaai]

I thought you lot complain about the format? You sound like the local government blaming apartheid for their own short comings.

Ah yes a very reasonable comparison by a very normal person. What the fuck

the fabric of the tournament was a pile of torn rags that a homeless drunk would be ashamed to wear BEFORE the SA teams joined.

If we booted the SA teams out tomorrow, the tournament would still be a steaming pile of excrement - where a team really only has to play 3 games of any consequence to become champions of Europe.

The fabric of the tournament is that it's a club-level yearly competition, accessible to travelling fans, with a group stage, a knockout stage, and a final, with European sides competing in it - European sides with a lot of history, a lot of tradition, and the inevitable correlation to the 6 Nations. The history and tradition make up a core part of the tournament. That's the fabric.

The format is fucked, I get that, no argument. But the format can be fixed, and it's only made worse by shoehorning in the Saffer teams. History and tradition are difficult things to recover or replace once you start messing with them. This tournament will never feel anything more than a ridiculously artificial commercial compromise while the Saffers are part of it. Fans of many clubs who want to see their sides play against the best team in the group - or god forbid, an away knockout game - when that team happens to be in Durban or whatever - are getting fucked. The "home" clubs are getting fucked. It's not a quality argument, I enjoy how good the sides are and I'm sure they'll win the tournament soon, but it'll be completely meaningless. The Crusaders would win it too. So what?

Oh I get it. You want to play against the likes of Zebre and the Welsch lot.

[JM2K6]

I thought you lot complain about the format? You sound like the local government blaming apartheid for their own short comings.

Ah yes a very reasonable comparison by a very normal person. What the fuck

the fabric of the tournament was a pile of torn rags that a homeless drunk would be ashamed to wear BEFORE the SA teams joined.

If we booted the SA teams out tomorrow, the tournament would still be a steaming pile of excrement - where a team really only has to play 3 games of any consequence to become champions of Europe.

The fabric of the tournament is that it's a club-level yearly competition, accessible to travelling fans, with a group stage, a knockout stage, and a final, with European sides competing in it - European sides with a lot of history, a lot of tradition, and the inevitable correlation to the 6 Nations. The history and tradition make up a core part of the tournament. That's the fabric.

The format is fucked, I get that, no argument. But the format can be fixed, and it's only made worse by shoehorning in the Saffer teams. History and tradition are difficult things to recover or replace once you start messing with them. This tournament will never feel anything more than a ridiculously artificial commercial compromise while the Saffers are part of it. Fans of many clubs who want to see their sides play against the best team in the group - or god forbid, an away knockout game - when that team happens to be in Durban or whatever - are getting fucked. The "home" clubs are getting fucked. It's not a quality argument, I enjoy how good the sides are and I'm sure they'll win the tournament soon, but it'll be completely meaningless. The Crusaders would win it too. So what?

Oh I get it. You want to play against the likes of Zebre and the Welsch lot.

Yes, I'd rather we played against the Scarlets than the Stormers. Is that meant to be some sort of gotcha? At least it's not a reference to racial subjugation this time.

[OomStruisbaai]

Ah yes a very reasonable comparison by a very normal person. What the fuck



The fabric of the tournament is that it's a club-level yearly competition, accessible to travelling fans, with a group stage, a knockout stage, and a final, with European sides competing in it - European sides with a lot of history, a lot of tradition, and the inevitable correlation to the 6 Nations. The history and tradition make up a core part of the tournament. That's the fabric.

The format is fucked, I get that, no argument. But the format can be fixed, and it's only made worse by shoehorning in the Saffer teams. History and tradition are difficult things to recover or replace once you start messing with them. This tournament will never feel anything more than a ridiculously artificial commercial compromise while the Saffers are part of it. Fans of many clubs who want to see their sides play against the best team in the group - or god forbid, an away knockout game - when that team happens to be in Durban or whatever - are getting fucked. The "home" clubs are getting fucked. It's not a quality argument, I enjoy how good the sides are and I'm sure they'll win the tournament soon, but it'll be completely meaningless. The Crusaders would win it too. So what?

Oh I get it. You want to play against the likes of Zebre and the Welsch lot.

Yes, I'd rather we played against the Scarlets than the Stormers. Is that meant to be some sort of gotcha? At least it's not a reference to racial subjugation this time.

INo Boet, I am not the stupid gotcha type. I tried to give credit to your competitions up north. That's all.

[Jim Lahey]

At least you are guaranteed a BP win and a healthy dose to your points difference playing a Welsh side. And its better for the environment than travelling x thousand of miles. Win win.

[PornDog]

I thought you lot complain about the format? You sound like the local government blaming apartheid for their own short comings.

Ah yes a very reasonable comparison by a very normal person. What the fuck

the fabric of the tournament was a pile of torn rags that a homeless drunk would be ashamed to wear BEFORE the SA teams joined.

If we booted the SA teams out tomorrow, the tournament would still be a steaming pile of excrement - where a team really only has to play 3 games of any consequence to become champions of Europe.

The fabric of the tournament is that it's a club-level yearly competition, accessible to travelling fans, with a group stage, a knockout stage, and a final, with European sides competing in it - European sides with a lot of history, a lot of tradition, and the inevitable correlation to the 6 Nations. The history and tradition make up a core part of the tournament. That's the fabric.

The format is fucked, I get that, no argument. But the format can be fixed, and it's only made worse by shoehorning in the Saffer teams. History and tradition are difficult things to recover or replace once you start messing with them. This tournament will never feel anything more than a ridiculously artificial commercial compromise while the Saffers are part of it. Fans of many clubs who want to see their sides play against the best team in the group - or god forbid, an away knockout game - when that team happens to be in Durban or whatever - are getting fucked. The "home" clubs are getting fucked. It's not a quality argument, I enjoy how good the sides are and I'm sure they'll win the tournament soon, but it'll be completely meaningless. The Crusaders would win it too. So what?

While we may be on different pages, at least we're reading the same book and are broadly in agreement.

I guess I'm just so disillusioned with how they've fucked up a truly great competition, I really don't see the difference in giving someone thats already in a coma an additional beating - if that's not too clumsy an analogy.

With regards to the highlighted, I realy don't think it can be fixed, as least not without a sponsor weighing and telling the administrators to stop fucking around and demanding they revert to the old format. With Heineken jumping ship that looks incredibly unlikely. It's a competition in a coma and showing no signs of life, the only thing left to do is pull the plug!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

At least you are guaranteed a BP win and a healthy dose to your points difference playing a Welsh side. And its better for the environment than travelling x thousand of miles. Win win.

Even there there's history, the team in the early 2000s was quality, that match against Northampton in 2000 was just superb, and I suppose they played some nice stuff under Pivac, but even if they are a little rubbish now they bring all they've been.

Whereas the Saffer sides bring irrelevance to a European event, and it's a worse idea again if claiming to go green is important. If they happen to bring a lot of money they'll stay, but if the stories of their TV money put them on a par with the fabled Welsh TV monies we can hope their inclusion is short-lived