NPR

It's official - rugby goes down the cricket route and freezes all developing nations out of top-level competitive rugby. Nations league between 12 top nations (6N, RC, Fiji, Japan) approved with no promotion / relegation before 2030.

Sorry Georgia, Portugal, Uruguay - know your place.

Kudos to Argentina for being the only T1 nation to vote against.

Well that's fairly shit and stupid!

Although with no guaranteed funding for any team in Rugby anywhere over the next decade, I can see why so many people are worried in the boardrooms.

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/news ... titiveness

The PR guff - as usual, roaring about the exact opposite of what is being achieved.

I'm not clear how regularly this is played - is it bi-annual, so not in World Cup or Lions tour years?

If so it would only run without promotion & relegation twice - in 2026 & 2028.

More concerning to me is that by introducing another more regular competition with a grand final between the two best teams, and one in which frankly the top two will have played more of the top sides than they would in a World Cup, you completely undermine the whole concept of a World Cup as the pinnacle of the sport. What's the point of it?

Mahoney wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:58 pm I'm not clear how regularly this is played - is it bi-annual, so not in World Cup or Lions tour years?

If so it would only run without promotion & relegation twice - in 2026 & 2028.

More concerning to me is that by introducing another more regular competition with a grand final between the two best teams, and one in which frankly the top two will have played more of the top sides than they would in a World Cup, you completely undermine the whole concept of a World Cup as the pinnacle of the sport. What's the point of it?

Supposedly, and this is something Chris Jones of the Beeb has mentioned on their podcast, a league structure provides more of a narrative for test rugby. Tests outside the 6N and RWC are perceived as friendlies and therefore aren't so compelling to viewers. Apparently. I think that's a load of shite and tests only lose meaning if you insist on calling them friendlies and keep stating that they don't have value outside of a competition.

Should have brought back old school tours! Regional, literal tours of South America, Europe, Africa, Pacific ... play four or five different nations, send camera crews to document their off-pitch efforts to explore, have fun, share with local clubs... actually grow the game! Reverse tours that follow T2 nations. (Use the money they waste propping up 7s.)

Same travelogue vibe as Bourdain's The Layover, The Amazing Race, Conan Without Borders, etc.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:31 pm

Mahoney wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:58 pm I'm not clear how regularly this is played - is it bi-annual, so not in World Cup or Lions tour years?

If so it would only run without promotion & relegation twice - in 2026 & 2028.

More concerning to me is that by introducing another more regular competition with a grand final between the two best teams, and one in which frankly the top two will have played more of the top sides than they would in a World Cup, you completely undermine the whole concept of a World Cup as the pinnacle of the sport. What's the point of it?

Supposedly, and this is something Chris Jones of the Beeb has mentioned on their podcast, a league structure provides more of a narrative for test rugby. Tests outside the 6N and RWC are perceived as friendlies and therefore aren't so compelling to viewers. Apparently. I think that's a load of shite and tests only lose meaning if you insist on calling them friendlies and keep stating that they don't have value outside of a competition.

Dunno, maybe it will be that I’ll be heading to Murrayfield all excited at playing Japan in the Nations League. Can’t see it though, sounds more like a reason to put up ticket prices again.

I do wonder if there is any consultation with people that go to watch rugby in these things, I suspect not

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:31 pm

Mahoney wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:58 pm I'm not clear how regularly this is played - is it bi-annual, so not in World Cup or Lions tour years?

If so it would only run without promotion & relegation twice - in 2026 & 2028.

More concerning to me is that by introducing another more regular competition with a grand final between the two best teams, and one in which frankly the top two will have played more of the top sides than they would in a World Cup, you completely undermine the whole concept of a World Cup as the pinnacle of the sport. What's the point of it?

Supposedly, and this is something Chris Jones of the Beeb has mentioned on their podcast, a league structure provides more of a narrative for test rugby. Tests outside the 6N and RWC are perceived as friendlies and therefore aren't so compelling to viewers. Apparently. I think that's a load of shite and tests only lose meaning if you insist on calling them friendlies and keep stating that they don't have value outside of a competition.

I can get that, but what does it do to the narrative of the World Cup?

In 2026 the top 12 teams in the world will play each other in a round robin, and at the end of that round robin the top two will play each other in a grand final to be the unquestioned best rugby team in the world.

In 2027 they are going to be in a mixed group / cup competition with 12 others and will play probably 4 games against another top 12 side, the last a grand final in order to be proclaimed... world champions?

And this is... special in some way I don't currently understand to the previous year and the next year?

If I read this correctly, there is now no way a T1 nation can play a T2 nation in the years this is on (except perhaps for an A team). T1 teams may not have been very good at organising fixtures with T2, but now thye have halve the opportunities to do so. That's bound to improve things.

I am struggling to see who this will benefit, maybe the RC teams?

weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:29 pm If I read this correctly, there is now no way a T1 nation can play a T2 nation in the years this is on (except perhaps for an A team). T1 teams may not have been very good at organising fixtures with T2, but now thye have halve the opportunities to do so. That's bound to improve things.

I am struggling to see who this will benefit, maybe the RC teams?

That's right. Scotland for one will now play fewer test matches against T2 sides.

Of course, this also devalues the Six Nations, which is part of World Rugby's aim.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:13 pm

weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:29 pm If I read this correctly, there is now no way a T1 nation can play a T2 nation in the years this is on (except perhaps for an A team). T1 teams may not have been very good at organising fixtures with T2, but now thye have halve the opportunities to do so. That's bound to improve things.

I am struggling to see who this will benefit, maybe the RC teams?

That's right. Scotland for one will now play fewer test matches against T2 sides.

Of course, this also devalues the Six Nations, which is part of World Rugby's aim.

How dies the 6N fit into this then? Will summer and autumn games depend on rankings in the 6N or something?

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:17 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:13 pm

weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:29 pm If I read this correctly, there is now no way a T1 nation can play a T2 nation in the years this is on (except perhaps for an A team). T1 teams may not have been very good at organising fixtures with T2, but now thye have halve the opportunities to do so. That's bound to improve things.

I am struggling to see who this will benefit, maybe the RC teams?

That's right. Scotland for one will now play fewer test matches against T2 sides.

Of course, this also devalues the Six Nations, which is part of World Rugby's aim.

How dies the 6N fit into this then? Will summer and autumn games depend on rankings in the 6N or something?

To play all 11 teams in the year you include the Six Nations results, then play three teams in July and three in November.

Unless we're looking to play against Wales and Italy in November and July, and well, fuck that.

Looks half reasonable IMHO. Gives tier 2 regular comp with TV money that should allow them to pay home based players rather than watch the few waltz off to overseas contracts. Devil in the detail of course.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:45 pm https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/news ... titiveness

The PR guff - as usual, roaring about the exact opposite of what is being achieved.

I notice it says consultation with the professional game, unions etc, but it says 'evaluation of the fan landscape'.

So no consultation with fans.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:21 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:17 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:13 pm

That's right. Scotland for one will now play fewer test matches against T2 sides.

Of course, this also devalues the Six Nations, which is part of World Rugby's aim.

How dies the 6N fit into this then? Will summer and autumn games depend on rankings in the 6N or something?

To play all 11 teams in the year you include the Six Nations results, then play three teams in July and three in November.

Unless we're looking to play against Wales and Italy in November and July, and well, fuck that.

Ahh right, sorry, didn't realise the point was to play all 11 other teams. How terribly boring.

Awful! This is going to hurt the Top14 for sure and possibly the Premiership.

We can see how much World Rugby is working for the players health and safety, but seeing these 2 a..holes, it’s not surprising.

It's beyond disappointing. We need a coup.

Run by donkeys.

I take it the changes to the World Cup are primarily to make sure Ireland can finally win a knockout game?

This is almost the opposite of what the professional game needs in this country at least. Christ alive.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:31 pm This is almost the opposite of what the professional game needs in this country at least. Christ alive.

What does the pro game need in England, in your opinion?

This is the single shittest idea from a governing body since the FIE brought in the new passivity rules in épée

Fonz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:31 pm This is almost the opposite of what the professional game needs in this country at least. Christ alive.

What does the pro game need in England, in your opinion?

Space to breathe. Fewer, more meaningful matches. Less concentration at the very top. A schedule that allows both club rugby and international rugby to co exist without cannibalising each other.

Apparently this is going to squeeze a week off the 6N - our players are getting flogged already and our clubs lose the international players for a huge amount of time. International rugby becoming even more of a treadmill while fucking any chance of a sane club season? Just great.

Stupid beyond words.

PCPhil wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:22 pm Looks half reasonable IMHO. Gives tier 2 regular comp with TV money that should allow them to pay home based players rather than watch the few waltz off to overseas contracts. Devil in the detail of course.

However, I realise I may be in the minority

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:59 pm This is the single shittest idea from a governing body since the FIE brought in the new passivity rules in épée

How fucking posh are you, stuginho?

PCPhil wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:39 am

PCPhil wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:22 pm Looks half reasonable IMHO. Gives tier 2 regular comp with TV money that should allow them to pay home based players rather than watch the few waltz off to overseas contracts. Devil in the detail of course.

However, I realise I may be in the minority

Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:23 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:45 pm https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/news ... titiveness

The PR guff - as usual, roaring about the exact opposite of what is being achieved.

I notice it says consultation with the professional game, unions etc, but it says 'evaluation of the fan landscape'.

So no consultation with fans.

Hey has worked for the streaming services, oh hand about

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:42 am

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:59 pm This is the single shittest idea from a governing body since the FIE brought in the new passivity rules in épée

How fucking posh are you, stuginho?

It's a common misconception that fencing is a posh sport, perpetuated by silly films like Die another day. The reality is very different, none of our coaches look like Madonna for example

sturginho wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:45 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:42 am

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:59 pm This is the single shittest idea from a governing body since the FIE brought in the new passivity rules in épée

How fucking posh are you, stuginho?

It's a common misconception that fencing is a posh sport, perpetuated by silly films like Die another day. The reality is very different, none of our coaches look like Madonna for example

Madonna is not posh.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:21 am Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:59 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:21 am Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

Yeah, we even tended to get pumped by the Saxons and Wolfhounds in The Churchill Cup. Epson Pacific Cup, on the other hand, always produced tight matches.

I said in an earlier thread, I think 16 team RWC is best, mid-week 'Nations Cup' for T2 to run at the same time could do more for exposure/development/enjoyment. I also think annual Test series should be more like tours, taking in at least a couple of minnow nations with the reserves. Go to Arg, play Brazil, Uruguay, Chile mid-week.

Niegs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:06 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:59 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:21 am Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

Yeah, we even tended to get pumped by the Saxons and Wolfhounds in The Churchill Cup. Epson Pacific Cup, on the other hand, always produced tight matches.

I said in an earlier thread, I think 16 team RWC is best, mid-week 'Nations Cup' for T2 to run at the same time could do more for exposure/development/enjoyment. I also think annual Test series should be more like tours, taking in at least a couple of minnow nations with the reserves. Go to Arg, play Brazil, Uruguay, Chile mid-week.

I know Georgia have rejected the offer of plaing A sides which I think is a bit silly. They might be able to catch Wales and Italy on the hop, but against the vast majority of tier 1 nations they tend to get a real kicking.

The Lions tour has often presented the opportunity to send tours to North America and Argentina, but I wonder if that time could be used to stage some kind of tier 2 test series (not everything needs to be a tournament) where the home nations send a XV rather than their senior side to play a selection of Georgia, Portugal, Uruguay, Canada etc. in a host country.

Relegation sounds great, until you realise Wales are shit for 2 seasons out of 4 because of the Lions tours.

"Yeah Wales' coaches and players, come and work for the lions, we realise this will definately mean you are probably fucking relegated, and will forever be shit, but there might be a MBE or knighthood in it if you behave yourselves, kiss establishment arse..and say fuck Wales.".

Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:17 pm Relegation sounds great, until you realise Wales are shit for 2 seasons out of 4 because of the Lions tours.

"Yeah Wales' coaches and players, come and work for the lions, we realise this will definately mean you are probably fucking relegated, and will forever be shit, but there might be a MBE or knighthood in it if you behave yourselves, kiss establishment arse..and say fuck Wales.".

Seems fair.

PCPhil wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:39 am

PCPhil wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:22 pm Looks half reasonable IMHO. Gives tier 2 regular comp with TV money that should allow them to pay home based players rather than watch the few waltz off to overseas contracts. Devil in the detail of course.

However, I realise I may be in the minority

Why is it always the Welsh who love these dumb ideas?

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:59 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:21 am Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

Right. *if* they market and package the tier 2 comp well I’ll happily watch say Georgia Samoa with something riding on it. I’m unlikely to watch those sides play a tier 1 side that isn’t England.

And how often do any tier 2 sides give even a semi contest to tier 1s in the autumn? They play the odd game then go back to their clubs, not having learned an awful lot. Georgia beating a changed Wales side or when Tonga beat Scotland are very much exceptions, even Fiji are very rarely competitive in the autumn.
We have an example of tests against the big boys mot being a catch all solution in the shape of Italy.

A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:06 pm A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

That's not a bad idea, but who will pay for "free to air" TV for limited interest games? This is like the British Isles club league suggestion, it's going to benefit the big time clubs and countries but for all the dodgy geezer hard sell we are seeing now, there is going to be a point where "meritocracy" is key and "we just can't afford to keep these other clubs or unions alive at the expense of keeping the game healthy in (name union or club area of choice)"

Worth noting that even allowing for the lopsided voting system within World Rugby, this required a 75% majority to pass, so with Argentina voting against, the Tier 2 unions and associations must have voted pretty strongly in favour.

The split appears to be:

Tier 1 unions: For 27 - 3 Against;

Other unions & regional associations: For 14 - 7 Against.

- 10 Tier 1 countries have 3 votes each.
- Japan have 3 votes.
- Canada, Georgia, Romania, Samoa, USA & Uruguay have 1 vote each.
- Rugby Africa, Asia Rugby, Rugby Europe, Rugby Americas North, Sudamérica Rugby & Oceania Rugby have 2 votes each.