NPR

England Team

15. George Furbank

14. Tommy Freeman

13. Henry Slade

12. Ollie Lawrence

11. Elliot Daly

10. George Ford - vice captain

9. Danny Care

1. Ellis Genge - vice captain

2. Jamie George - captain

3. Dan Cole

4. Maro Itoje - vice captain

5. Ollie Chessum

6. Ethan Roots

7. Sam Underhill

8. Ben Earl

Replacements

16. Theo Dan

17. Joe Marler

18. Will Stuart

19. George Martin

20. Chandler Cunningham-South

21. Ben Spencer

22. Fin Smith

23. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso

Scotland start as clear favourites but we're due a win over them. If we can continue the improvement in our new defence and make a couple of changes to our line up to give us a bit more go forward, I reckon we can sneak another close one. The addition of Tuilagi, even the lesser version we have now, should help and Martin, maybe off the bench, should also give us more of an edge. The bench could look pretty handy.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:09 pm Scotland start as clear favourites but we're due a win over them. If we can continue the improvement in our new defence and make a couple of changes to our line up to give us a bit more go forward, I reckon we can sneak another close one. The addition of Tuilagi, even the lesser version we have now, should help and Martin, maybe off the bench, should also give us more of an edge. The bench could look pretty handy.

Due doesn't work in this fixture, as we well know.

Not convinced either side have offered anything over the last 6 months to justify a ‘clear favourites’ tag

six months, six years, sixteen years...

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:04 pm Not convinced either side have offered anything over the last 6 months to justify a ‘clear favourites’ tag

True - but, home advantage, a settled team, and their recent track record against us, has to make them favourites.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 3:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:04 pm Not convinced either side have offered anything over the last 6 months to justify a ‘clear favourites’ tag

True - but, home advantage, a settled team, and their recent track record against us, has to make them favourites.

Recent track record vs us is four years of games that could have gone either way at any point. Their recent track record vs others is nearly blowing a 27 point lead against a poor Welsh side, losing at home to a French side who offered little, and not firing a shot at the world cup.
We are hardly setting the world alight and no Scot should fear us, but I struggle to understand some of the hype around Scotland.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:30 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 3:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:04 pm Not convinced either side have offered anything over the last 6 months to justify a ‘clear favourites’ tag

True - but, home advantage, a settled team, and their recent track record against us, has to make them favourites.

Recent track record vs us is four years of games that could have gone either way at any point. Their recent track record vs others is nearly blowing a 27 point lead against a poor Welsh side, losing at home to a French side who offered little, and not firing a shot at the world cup.
We are hardly setting the world alight and no Scot should fear us, but I struggle to understand some of the hype around Scotland.

I'm certainly not 'hyping' them at all. They're no great shakes and I fancy us to win. Bookies have them as clear 7/10 favourites though, and we're 7/5.

Haven't seen any of England's 2 games to-date but judging by the analysis, they haven't been great.

Nor have Scotland tbf.

But Scotland should have a bit more fire in the belly after the France game, and they are at home against The Old Enemy.

I'm going for the Jocks by 5.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:30 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 3:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:04 pm Not convinced either side have offered anything over the last 6 months to justify a ‘clear favourites’ tag

True - but, home advantage, a settled team, and their recent track record against us, has to make them favourites.

Recent track record vs us is four years of games that could have gone either way at any point. Their recent track record vs others is nearly blowing a 27 point lead against a poor Welsh side, losing at home to a French side who offered little, and not firing a shot at the world cup.
We are hardly setting the world alight and no Scot should fear us, but I struggle to understand some of the hype around Scotland.

I agree that Scotland can be a bit over-hyped simply by dint of being no longer in regular contention for the wooden spoon, and they not only had a dismal World Cup but clearly still struggle against the better teams.

However, I think their performances against England in recent years have demonstrated that their current style of play with Finn Russell at 10 is particularly well suited to exploiting England's playing style and highlighting the defensive frailties of an inherently narrow defensive line. They do much better against us than they do against other similarly ranked teams, and we also struggle to contain them in a way that we don't against better teams than them.

As England's new defensive set up seems to result in an even narrower defensive line, Scotland would seem to be very well-placed to find and exploit any defensive gaps, and especially those out wide. I'd certainly back them to find more gaps than Italy or Wales managed (and the thought of Daly and Steward trying to cover any breaks also causes some concern)

While the ideal result would obviously be a two point win for England as the result of a controversial refereeing decision in the final five minutes, Scotland are rightly favourites and could end up as comfortable winners.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:09 pm Scotland start as clear favourites but we're due a win over them. If we can continue the improvement in our new defence and make a couple of changes to our line up to give us a bit more go forward, I reckon we can sneak another close one. The addition of Tuilagi, even the lesser version we have now, should help and Martin, maybe off the bench, should also give us more of an edge. The bench could look pretty handy.

They’ve said Lawrence is back in some form of training too. He’s someone I’m really looking forward to seeing back on the field.

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:27 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:09 pm Scotland start as clear favourites but we're due a win over them. If we can continue the improvement in our new defence and make a couple of changes to our line up to give us a bit more go forward, I reckon we can sneak another close one. The addition of Tuilagi, even the lesser version we have now, should help and Martin, maybe off the bench, should also give us more of an edge. The bench could look pretty handy.

They’ve said Lawrence is back in some form of training too. He’s someone I’m really looking forward to seeing back on the field.

He's still on the 'recuperating' list though - so has to very doubtful for the Scotland game.

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:45 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:27 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:09 pm Scotland start as clear favourites but we're due a win over them. If we can continue the improvement in our new defence and make a couple of changes to our line up to give us a bit more go forward, I reckon we can sneak another close one. The addition of Tuilagi, even the lesser version we have now, should help and Martin, maybe off the bench, should also give us more of an edge. The bench could look pretty handy.

They’ve said Lawrence is back in some form of training too. He’s someone I’m really looking forward to seeing back on the field.

He's still on the 'recuperating' list though - so has to very doubtful for the Scotland game.

Just going off this in the guardian:

The England assistant coach Felix Jones was upbeat on the chances of Steve Borthwick having a fully fit squad from which to select his team to face Scotland. “We’re ­treating the guys who have come in with a day‑by‑day focus. We’ll know more as each day goes by, but ­everyone looked fine today,” Jones said. “Manu had a little bit of a run around today. It wasn’t anything too intense, but he looked good.”

Asked about Tuilagi’s lack of ­playing time – the centre has been out since before Christmas with a groin injury – Jones said: “Manu’s a guy who has experienced enough Test rugby. To my knowledge he’s done it a number of times when he’s come back from injury with low levels of game time but still been able to ­perform at a very high level. ­Experience counts for a lot.

“Ollie [Lawrence] was out there today and is one we’re monitoring day by day. We’ll see how he holds up. He looked all good.”

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:27 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:45 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:27 pm

They’ve said Lawrence is back in some form of training too. He’s someone I’m really looking forward to seeing back on the field.

He's still on the 'recuperating' list though - so has to very doubtful for the Scotland game.

Just going off this in the guardian:

The England assistant coach Felix Jones was upbeat on the chances of Steve Borthwick having a fully fit squad from which to select his team to face Scotland. “We’re ­treating the guys who have come in with a day‑by‑day focus. We’ll know more as each day goes by, but ­everyone looked fine today,” Jones said. “Manu had a little bit of a run around today. It wasn’t anything too intense, but he looked good.”

Asked about Tuilagi’s lack of ­playing time – the centre has been out since before Christmas with a groin injury – Jones said: “Manu’s a guy who has experienced enough Test rugby. To my knowledge he’s done it a number of times when he’s come back from injury with low levels of game time but still been able to ­perform at a very high level. ­Experience counts for a lot.

“Ollie [Lawrence] was out there today and is one we’re monitoring day by day. We’ll see how he holds up. He looked all good.”

That's incredibly disappointing to read.

Tuilagi is the biggest cock tease in English rugby. Coaches are obsessed with him, largely based on a season or two getting on for a decade ago plus the odd barnstorming run or big hit once in a blue moon, but he is always just out of reach.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:24 am Tuilagi is the biggest cock tease in English rugby. Coaches are obsessed with him, largely based on a season or two getting on for a decade ago plus the odd barnstorming run or big hit once in a blue moon, but he is always just out of reach.

Yeah, when I was going to watch Leicester regularly in 2011-12, he was fantastic. Not long after that though, he started getting injury after injury, and possibly believing his own hype a bit. Hasn't showed more than flashes since about 2014 imo

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:27 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:45 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:27 pm

They’ve said Lawrence is back in some form of training too. He’s someone I’m really looking forward to seeing back on the field.

He's still on the 'recuperating' list though - so has to very doubtful for the Scotland game.

Just going off this in the guardian:

The England assistant coach Felix Jones was upbeat on the chances of Steve Borthwick having a fully fit squad from which to select his team to face Scotland. “We’re ­treating the guys who have come in with a day‑by‑day focus. We’ll know more as each day goes by, but ­everyone looked fine today,” Jones said. “Manu had a little bit of a run around today. It wasn’t anything too intense, but he looked good.”

Asked about Tuilagi’s lack of ­playing time – the centre has been out since before Christmas with a groin injury – Jones said: “Manu’s a guy who has experienced enough Test rugby. To my knowledge he’s done it a number of times when he’s come back from injury with low levels of game time but still been able to ­perform at a very high level. ­Experience counts for a lot.

“Ollie [Lawrence] was out there today and is one we’re monitoring day by day. We’ll see how he holds up. He looked all good.”

Dripping with arrogance

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:24 am Tuilagi is the biggest cock tease in English rugby. Coaches are obsessed with him, largely based on a season or two getting on for a decade ago plus the odd barnstorming run or big hit once in a blue moon, but he is always just out of reach.

I genuinely find it hilarious and frustrating. He has done very little for years and successive England coaches seem to have not bothered developing other talent in the hope that he will rediscover his form and lack of injuries from a decade ago. It's quite staggering. Apparently he's never actually played at Murrayfield.

Tuilagi to score 4.

He's still very clearly a good carrier. It's obvious what he's doing, but that doesn't make it easier to stop him. With Ford picking the passes, Manu is a weapon whether he takes the ball or acts as decoy.

I hope Lawrence phases him out, but I'm not upset to have him back.

He’s still good, I think too many coaches still dream of him pulling out one more ABs 2012 game. 2019 he was excellent and a big part of our run to the final. 2023 WC he played pretty well IMO. A blitz defence may suit him.


In other news - when does Borthwick release his 23 and Townsend release his legal team for this one?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:59 am He’s still good, I think too many coaches still dream of him pulling out one more ABs 2012 game. 2019 he was excellent and a big part of our run to the final. 2023 WC he played pretty well IMO. A blitz defence may suit him.


In other news - when does Borthwick release his 23 and Townsend release his legal team for this one?

Think blitz with him at 12 can definitely suit, rush up and hit something. Nice and simple.

Scotland will be a good test of our new defense.

Raggs wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:03 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:59 am He’s still good, I think too many coaches still dream of him pulling out one more ABs 2012 game. 2019 he was excellent and a big part of our run to the final. 2023 WC he played pretty well IMO. A blitz defence may suit him.


In other news - when does Borthwick release his 23 and Townsend release his legal team for this one?

Think blitz with him at 12 can definitely suit, rush up and hit something. Nice and simple.

Scotland will be a good test of our new defense.

Definitely. Russell clearly has the skill set to unpick a defence (I also think Huw Jones is a very underrated player on that front), but he really struggled with the Boks blitz. Could easily see a couple of miracle passes, but also an interception. Tuilagi was pretty impressive in defence vs Argentina in something of a blitz role

Yep, It'll be an interesting game.

Everything I've read tends to suggest England are going big or going home on the Jones' blitz defence. Clearly high risk, high reward and Russell is a step above any 10 they've faced in terms of being able to get around the pressure.

I always think it helps to have a lightning fast 13 and/or wingers on the blitz so that when it goes tits up they can scramble much more effectively.

That, or one of the centres need to be a defensive guru to marshal the line.

None of the players we're likely to pick at 12-14 fulfils that brief.

I've said before that part of the reason South Africa managed Jones' defence system is the pace they typically have in the outside backs. Like you say, it makes a big difference to the scramble when breached. No blitz is impregnable, it will get breached or circumvented at some point and if your backs are sloths then your chances of defusing the break threat plummet.

Probably the match of the round in terms of close games.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:35 am Yep, It'll be an interesting game.

Everything I've read tends to suggest England are going big or going home on the Jones' blitz defence. Clearly high risk, high reward and Russell is a step above any 10 they've faced in terms of being able to get around the pressure.

Ireland and SA shut him down with alarming ease. If England get it right, I suspect a fairly comfortable England victory. If England don’t manage that, it will be a close game.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:08 pm I always think it helps to have a lightning fast 13 and/or wingers on the blitz so that when it goes tits up they can scramble much more effectively.

That, or one of the centres need to be a defensive guru to marshal the line.

None of the players we're likely to pick at 12-14 fulfils that brief.

Really miss Marchant who I always thought was an excellent defender at 13 and has that recovery pace.

The Tuilagi thing is irritating. He is not the player he was, that player was faster and not just a straight into contact basher.

Manu is by some way a shadow of the carrier he used to be, club rugby is full of people who do what he does most weeks. Some of them aren't even internationals. He frequently has matches where he barely makes a dent.

Have to say that regardless of results, Scotland have shown far more quality than England and I don't really expect this game to be close.

In better news for Borthwick, as reported by the Guardian last week, Ollie Lawrence has been passed fit to join the squad after completing his rehab last week. The 24-year-old centre offers more ballast to England’s midfield and bolsters their options, joining Manu Tuilagi in being available having also missed the first two matches with a hip injury. Smith again comes into camp to continue his rehab but England have yet to put a timeframe on his return.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... ugby-union

https://x.com/ScotRugbyNews/status/1759 ... 60432?s=20

After this headline, the moral victory has been secured a week out

I would be happy for England have Tuilagi back in their midfield, he is pretty predictable now and Tupilotu and Jones with help from Darge will handle his direct running. However his defence is just awful and I would expect Scotland to target him and the channel between him and Ford if he plays at 12 and they play together. He is ok with the big hits if someone is running straight at him but is leaden footed when having to make decisions and folk running off him at angles plus he often tries to make the big hits, comes out of the lime and gets caught in no man land. However I am very wary of Lawrence playing, he is a brilliant player strong in defence and will make inroads with his angle of runs etc. Lawrence makes the England midfield tick.

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:46 am I would be happy for England have Tuilagi back in their midfield, he is pretty predictable now and Tupilotu and Jones with help from Darge will handle his direct running. However his defence is just awful and I would expect Scotland to target him and the channel between him and Ford if he plays at 12 and they play together. He is ok with the big hits if someone is running straight at him but is leaden footed when having to make decisions and folk running off him at angles plus he often tries to make the big hits, comes out of the lime and gets caught in no man land. However I am very wary of Lawrence playing, he is a brilliant player strong in defence and will make inroads with his angle of runs etc. Lawrence makes the England midfield tick.

It'll be Tuilagi. It'd still be Ben Youngs if Borthers had the option.

(this is how mocker's gods works, right?)

Squad update
Magnus Bradbury, Alex Craig, Blair Kinghorn, WP Nel and Hamish Watson have joined the squad ahead of the weekend.
Josh Bayliss, Ross McCann and Javan Sebastian have left the squad.

Really interesting game.

England have it in them (somewhere?) to very nearly beat South Africa, Scotland just don't.

But I do feel that this Scotland team (at the moment) are better than this England team (at the moment).

If we lost I think serious questions need to be asked about Toonie.

Don't mean that in a disrespectful way to England, but the loss will likely expose concerns that have been there for a while.

Scotland by 5.

Kinghorn being fit should probably see him start, but Darcy Graham's injury means we'll probably see Steyn on the wing, though Rowe has done well. Paterson will be back, probably in the summer. Another point about Kinghorn is whether or not it means Healy drops off the bench, allowing a 6:2 split.

With this in mind I'd be tempted to have either Ritchie and Bradbury on the pine, or Fagerson and Bradbury there, with the other one starting, Dempsey and Darge will both start. Other than that, I expect the same team as faced France, oh and WP Nel will probably be replacement TH.

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:46 am I would be happy for England have Tuilagi back in their midfield, he is pretty predictable now and Tupilotu and Jones with help from Darge will handle his direct running. However his defence is just awful and I would expect Scotland to target him and the channel between him and Ford if he plays at 12 and they play together. He is ok with the big hits if someone is running straight at him but is leaden footed when having to make decisions and folk running off him at angles plus he often tries to make the big hits, comes out of the lime and gets caught in no man land. However I am very wary of Lawrence playing, he is a brilliant player strong in defence and will make inroads with his angle of runs etc. Lawrence makes the England midfield tick.

Manu isn't great, but Slade is all over the place with what's happening (or not happening) inside and outside of him. And whilst Manu isn't good he'd be replacing a statue stuck in fresh laid cement, so maybe it changes how we're not very good, but either way we're not very good

C T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:41 am Really interesting game.

England have it in them (somewhere?) to very nearly beat South Africa, Scotland just don't.

But I do feel that this Scotland team (at the moment) are better than this England team (at the moment).

If we lost I think serious questions need to be asked about Toonie.

Don't mean that in a disrespectful way to England, but the loss will likely expose concerns that have been there for a while.

Scotland by 5.

As mentioned above, Scotland do struggle against ‘better’ teams - but effectively that means SA and Ireland, who were of course both in our group at the RWC. (Probably also NZ, but we haven’t played them in a good while and the last few games were close).

SA and Ireland have a relentless physicality which we cannot match over 80 minutes. Against Ireland in the 6N last year we managed it for 50 before cracking - only for 10 minutes, but it was enough. Maybe it’s that our players lack that harder edge. Maybe it’s psychological. But whatever it is, nobody who follows Scotland gave us any chance of winning against either team in the RWC, and that’s what duly happened.

I’d say that we were currently on a level with England and France, in that games with them will be competitive and could go either way, but both of those teams seem better equipped than we are to handle the likes of SA and Ireland. Or some of the time, anyway.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 10:02 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:46 am I would be happy for England have Tuilagi back in their midfield, he is pretty predictable now and Tupilotu and Jones with help from Darge will handle his direct running. However his defence is just awful and I would expect Scotland to target him and the channel between him and Ford if he plays at 12 and they play together. He is ok with the big hits if someone is running straight at him but is leaden footed when having to make decisions and folk running off him at angles plus he often tries to make the big hits, comes out of the lime and gets caught in no man land. However I am very wary of Lawrence playing, he is a brilliant player strong in defence and will make inroads with his angle of runs etc. Lawrence makes the England midfield tick.

Manu isn't great, but Slade is all over the place with what's happening (or not happening) inside and outside of him. And whilst Manu isn't good he'd be replacing a statue stuck in fresh laid cement, so maybe it changes how we're not very good, but either way we're not very good

If Manu comes in, it'll be for Dingwall so we get him and Slade combining their defensive deficiencies.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:00 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 10:02 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:46 am I would be happy for England have Tuilagi back in their midfield, he is pretty predictable now and Tupilotu and Jones with help from Darge will handle his direct running. However his defence is just awful and I would expect Scotland to target him and the channel between him and Ford if he plays at 12 and they play together. He is ok with the big hits if someone is running straight at him but is leaden footed when having to make decisions and folk running off him at angles plus he often tries to make the big hits, comes out of the lime and gets caught in no man land. However I am very wary of Lawrence playing, he is a brilliant player strong in defence and will make inroads with his angle of runs etc. Lawrence makes the England midfield tick.

Manu isn't great, but Slade is all over the place with what's happening (or not happening) inside and outside of him. And whilst Manu isn't good he'd be replacing a statue stuck in fresh laid cement, so maybe it changes how we're not very good, but either way we're not very good

If Manu comes in, it'll be for Dingwall so we get him and Slade combining their defensive deficiencies.

The statue stuck in cement is Dingwall. And whilst Slade isn't brilliant he is being left with deficiencies on his inside and outside, he could play well and leave holes to the left and right into which the famed 600 might ride, and we don't have any cannons