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6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:16 pm
by fishfoodie
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:05 am
by Uncle fester
Billy Vunipola is still playing?
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:33 am
by dpedin
I am sure Englands best chance is to try and make it a dull forward, set piece battle and to try and take on Irelands pack - they have a snowballs chance of trying to outsmart them in the backs! However the likes of Manu and Billy are carthorses now compared to the Irish forwards. The days of big chubby men beating less big chubby men has gone - look at the body shapes of the Irish forwards! They are big powerful guys who can also sprint, run, play at pace and go through phases. England are gradually making changes but still rely on players who are too chubby, too big, too old and too slow to keep up with the pace of the game and Ireland will just tire them out through multiple phases and then run around them.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:20 am
by SaintK
fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:16 pm
The Walrus has considered, & pronounced !
Brutality is England’s only hope against Ireland – time for the big men
England cannot hold a candle to Ireland’s free-flowing attack so have only one option: hit them and hit them hard. Manu Tuilagi, George Martin, Freddie Steward and Billy Vunipola can do just that
...
https://archive.is/3lyfM
I'm sure he speaks for all true English fans; England are shite, so they shouldn't try, & should just trot out the cart horses once again, & do what has failed a dozen times before, & hope for a different result.
Stephen Jones talking shite shock horror. Dementia has set in!!!
Martin is the only one I'd have near the England starting 23 and he has only had 30 minutes playing time in the past couple of months
On the opposite page to that article, Stuart Barnes wastes column inches explaining why Ben Earl should start at 12 against Ireland despite never playing there before
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:35 pm
by Hal Jordan
Sheridan and Simon Shaw out of retirement shocker!
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:15 pm
by Oxbow
Rodber/Clarke/Richards back row.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:06 pm
by Uncle fester
Oxbow wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:15 pm
Rodber/Clarke/Richards back row.
That would put the heebie jeebies up us!
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:37 pm
by PCPhil
I will start drinking.....early.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:30 am
by JM2K6
Maybe the coaches will let the players pass and run with the ball in training this week, as a treat.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:31 am
by Hal Jordan
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:30 am
Maybe the coaches will let the players pass and run with the ball in training this week, as a treat.
No, keep them hungry for the ball at the weekend.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:35 am
by Rhubarb & Custard
This could all be made up crap in the media, or at least badly spun. But it does chime with the training move being pulled up at the World Cup for someone, Arundell perhaps, running a kick back and making a break, the coaches whistled a stop and informed the players you don't win games by making line breaks, or some such. How close we are to securing the return of John Wells might be a point of interest
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:58 am
by petej
I would have Steward at 15 if it meant dumping daly and selecting feyi-waboso. Martin is a useful sub. Tuilagi and Vunipola can fuck off.
Did Stuart Barnes really write that Ben Earl should start at 12?
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:00 am
by petej
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:35 am
This could all be made up crap in the media, or at least badly spun. But it does chime with the training move being pulled up at the World Cup for someone, Arundell perhaps, running a kick back and making a break, the coaches whistled a stop and informed the players you don't win games by making line breaks, or some such. How close we are to securing the return of John Wells might be a point of interest
At no point has the rfu actually managed to get one of the best long serving coaches in the premiership to coach England.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:23 am
by sockwithaticket
petej wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:58 am
I would have Steward at 15 if it meant dumping daly and selecting feyi-waboso. Martin is a useful sub. Tuilagi and Vunipola can fuck off.
Did Stuart Barnes really write that Ben Earl should start at 12?
Not only did he write it, he's written a new article insisting he's right and railing against the backlash. Saw people mocking it on Reddit.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:48 am
by Ovals
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:31 am
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:30 am
Maybe the coaches will let the players pass and run with the ball in training this week, as a treat.
No, keep them hungry for the ball at the weekend.
Since they never actually get the ball in the matches, perhaps the training is just designed to replicate the match situations
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:42 am
by Lobby
I see Jamie Heaslip is suggesting that Ireland can play with 13 players as England are so shit:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68468207
I'm sure he speaks for all true Irish fans in saying so.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
by Slick
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje, Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:09 am
by inactionman
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje,
Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Oy, you leave Wonderhill alone. He's got magnificent gnome ears.
It's true that Eddie in particular seemed to keep flogging a fair few dead horses, but it's tricky to isolate any players from malaise - put a good player in a good, cohesive team and chances are they'll perform, put them in a team that's playing badly and they won't. Sadly - well, sad for us, I'm sure you're all loving it! - I think the issues are more deep-rooted than can be fixed by swapping out players.
I think Borthwick has already had a good go at a new broom (I appreciate Dan Cole is still in there but he is still doing a job), there may be a few more changes to make but I'd suggest many would rather see this change in the backs.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:14 am
by Raggs
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje, Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Rule 36, you want to drop players, you name the replacements that are better than them (and if they're the bench players, you name the ones that replace them).
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:28 am
by inactionman
Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:14 am
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje, Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Rule 36, you want to drop players, you name the replacements that are better than them (and if they're the bench players, you name the ones that replace them).
I'd say Willis if he hadn't gone continental.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:36 am
by inactionman
When was last time Ireland got a red card?
They're obviously due one, or maybe two.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:39 am
by Slick
Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:14 am
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje, Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Rule 36, you want to drop players, you name the replacements that are better than them (and if they're the bench players, you name the ones that replace them).
I haven't a clue. All I know is that some players were rightly put on a pedestal a few years back but haven't been performing for some time and still getting picked. England at a minimum should have a set of hard nosed, angry, forwards like in all their best teams. This lot scare absolutely no one.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:41 am
by pjm1
inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:36 am
When was last time Ireland got a red card?
They're obviously due one, or maybe two.
Valentine's Day. Had roses and shamrocks on it and everything.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:43 am
by inactionman
pjm1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:41 am
inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:36 am
When was last time Ireland got a red card?
They're obviously due one, or maybe two.
Valentine's Day. Had roses and shamrocks on it and everything.
We're screwed.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:56 am
by sockwithaticket
Hypothetical team if we aren't allowed to use any of the players often claimed as being over the hill and/or under-performing. Mainly limited to those in the senior or A squads, but I may have strayed somewhere:
1. Obano
2.Dan
3. Stuart
4. Chessum
5. Martin
6. Pearson
7. Earl
8. Cunningham-South
9. Mitchell/Spencer (depending on whether Mitchell is actually fit to play, he is back in the squad)
10. Smith/Smith (Marcus is back in the squad, but perhaps not match fit)
11. Muir
12. Lawrence
13. Freeman
14. Feyi-Waboso
15. Furbank
16. Blamire
17. Baxter
18. Heyes
19. Coles
20. Fisilau/Pollock/Barbeary
21. Spencer
22. Whichever Smith doesn't start
23. Roebuck.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:03 am
by sockwithaticket
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:39 am
Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:14 am
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje, Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Rule 36, you want to drop players, you name the replacements that are better than them (and if they're the bench players, you name the ones that replace them).
I haven't a clue. All I know is that some players were rightly put on a pedestal a few years back but haven't been performing for some time and still getting picked.
England at a minimum should have a set of hard nosed, angry forwards, like in all their best teams. This lot scare absolutely no one.
We simply don't have any forward strength in depth in the tight five anymore. Haven't for about a decade tbh. Our waning best are still the best available.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 5:51 pm
by Rhubarb & Custard
Why is Chessum getting a pass? Certainly Itoje isn't ripping up trees presently, and he still carries more like Steve Borthwick than you'd like, but he looks to be doing more than Chessum.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:08 pm
by JM2K6
Given Underhill and Itoje were two of England's best performers against Scotland there's more than a hint of shoehorning in a "England's most hyped players just aren't good enough" based on personal bias rather than anything else
It wasn't any of the players getting accused who were shitting the bed against Scotland, either
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:23 pm
by sockwithaticket
Chessum flies below the radar because no one's seen him hit and sustain a ceiling like Itoje's I guess?
That wasn't a team I'd name, it's just one absent the names I keep seeing criticised.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:27 pm
by fishfoodie
No injuries in the Irish squad, a couple doing light training, but everyone available for selection.
Ireland by 10
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:31 pm
by JM2K6
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:23 pm
Chessum flies below the radar because no one's seen him hit and sustain a ceiling like Itoje's I guess?
That wasn't a team I'd name, it's just one absent the names I keep seeing criticised.
Chessum hit the ground running for England with a bit of a recent dip, but he's 23 and has started all of 14 Tests out of 21 total plus another 41 from 53 for Tigers. Compare that to the other starting locks in that match:
Itoje (77 starts from 79 for England, 143 from 159 for Sarries, age 29)
Gilchrist (56 starts from 67 for Scotland, 140 from 150 for Edinburgh, age 33)
Cummings (22 starts from 36 for Scotland, 99 from 116 for Glasgow, age 27)
He's not going to be brilliant in every match, he's still finding his feet at this level. So far his output has outstripped his more heralded Leicester colleague, he's been more consistent than any other "new" lock added in the Eddie & Borthwick era, and he's obviously talented and one of the more obvious mainstays of the squad for the years to come.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:47 pm
by Uncle fester
fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:27 pm
No injuries in the Irish squad, a couple doing light training, but everyone available for selection.
Ireland by 10
I'd be surprised if Keenan really was available.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:19 pm
by petej
Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:14 am
Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:51 am
If we are being really harsh, this should be last chance saloon for some of the England forwards that used to be good and are now underperforming massively. I'm thinking Genge, George, Itoje, Underhill. A couple of seasons ago if they were firing and up for it England would have a decent chance, if they are the last couple of years model, forget it.
They can do it, see SA in the WC, but if they can't get up for this game it's really time for a massive clear out.
Rule 36, you want to drop players, you name the replacements that are better than them (and if they're the bench players, you name the ones that replace them).
It is more culture and coaching than selection at this point. The likes of arundell, Willis, marchant pissing off is a symptom of deeper issues than selection.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:00 am
by Paddington Bear
Let me put on the record that if we win this, I will shit myself laughing.
Anyone got any recommendations for places that will show the games in Kuala Lumpur?
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:52 am
by Rhubarb & Custard
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:31 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:23 pm
Chessum flies below the radar because no one's seen him hit and sustain a ceiling like Itoje's I guess?
That wasn't a team I'd name, it's just one absent the names I keep seeing criticised.
Chessum hit the ground running for England with a bit of a recent dip, but he's 23 and has started all of 14 Tests out of 21 total plus another 41 from 53 for Tigers. Compare that to the other starting locks in that match:
Itoje (77 starts from 79 for England, 143 from 159 for Sarries, age 29)
Gilchrist (56 starts from 67 for Scotland, 140 from 150 for Edinburgh, age 33)
Cummings (22 starts from 36 for Scotland, 99 from 116 for Glasgow, age 27)
He's not going to be brilliant in every match, he's still finding his feet at this level. So far his output has outstripped his more heralded Leicester colleague, he's been more consistent than any other "new" lock added in the Eddie & Borthwick era, and he's obviously talented and one of the more obvious mainstays of the squad for the years to come.
Could be there's more to come from Chessum, he's been okay in test rugby, but only okay. Maybe he's finding his feet, maybe he needs a more abrasive lock partner, maybe never mind not having a position of mainstay he's not even the best lock in his family. Whatever okay isn't good enough.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:48 am
by Tichtheid
I'll be hoping England win this one, without a try bp, just to keep Scotland's chances alive if we do manage to beat Italy.
However, I'll eat my hat if Ireland don't win on Saturday.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:52 am
by SaintK
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:48 am
I'll be hoping England win this one, without a try bp, just to keep Scotland's chances alive
if we do manage to beat Italy.
However, I'll eat my hat if Ireland don't win on Saturday.
even England managed that!
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:03 am
by Tichtheid
SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:52 am
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:48 am
I'll be hoping England win this one, without a try bp, just to keep Scotland's chances alive
if we do manage to beat Italy.
However, I'll eat my hat if Ireland don't win on Saturday.
even England managed that!
Yes, but as an England fan you don't have the last twenty years of experience that we Scotland fans do, and Italy target this fixture.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 12:36 pm
by Slick
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:08 pm
Given Underhill and Itoje were two of England's best performers against Scotland there's more than a hint of shoehorning in a "England's most hyped players just aren't good enough" based on personal bias rather than anything else
It wasn't any of the players getting accused who were shitting the bed against Scotland, either
That only works if you think they are anywhere near the players they were a couple of seasons ago. They are not.
Re: 6 Nations Round 4 - England V Ireland
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:10 pm
by JM2K6
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 12:36 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:08 pm
Given Underhill and Itoje were two of England's best performers against Scotland there's more than a hint of shoehorning in a "England's most hyped players just aren't good enough" based on personal bias rather than anything else
It wasn't any of the players getting accused who were shitting the bed against Scotland, either
That only works if you think they are anywhere near the players they were a couple of seasons ago. They are not.
How far back are you going, exactly?
The point stands: why have a pop at two of England's best performers against Scotland if it's not just a display of strongly held priors? It says precisely nothing about England's current woes.
