Climate Change - Why don't we care?

[epwc]

This is just a single article from todays papers:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... et-weather

There are still plenty of farmers who are deniers, my mate Richard for example who blames it all on uncleared ditches and river systems. He doesn't have his own farm he works for other people, lost a seed drill about 2 weeks ago, up to the axles in a soggy bit of a field. The farmer in question (mid Essex) had already lost appx 30% of autumn sown crops and will now have very little time to get any spring sown stuff in (if we actually get a run of dry weather).

The UK isn't anywhere near the worst affected country in terms of agricultural output, and of course in poorer parts of the world this is literally the difference between life and death.

Even if Israel manage to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (or vice versa in some parallel universe) this will be nothing compared to the losses through climate events and lost crops in a few years time.

Why do we care so little about something that will in the end affect all of us?

[inactionman]

This is just a single article from todays papers:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... et-weather

There are still plenty of farmers who are deniers, my mate Richard for example who blames it all on uncleared ditches and river systems. He doesn't have his own farm he works for other people, lost a seed drill about 2 weeks ago, up to the axles in a soggy bit of a field. The farmer in question (mid Essex) had already lost appx 30% of autumn sown crops and will now have very little time to get any spring sown stuff in (if we actually get a run of dry weather).

The UK isn't anywhere near the worst affected country in terms of agricultural output, and of course in poorer parts of the world this is literally the difference between life and death.

Even if Israel manage to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (or vice versa in some parallel universe) this will be nothing compared to the losses through climate events and lost crops in a few years time.

Why do we care so little about something that will in the end affect all of us?

I'm not sure that no-one cares, it's just that the solution is in no one person's grasp.

We can all e.g. reduce the use of fossil fuels in our cars, homes etc, but we can't easily control what a tuk-tuk driver in India does or what Bolsonaro has allowed in the rainforests in Brazil.

[epwc]

But we have a huge amount more impact per capita than the average Indian or African, we're creating the problem, surely it can't be that hard to modify our behaviour?

[Slick]

But we have a huge amount more impact per capita than the average Indian or African, we're creating the problem, surely it can't be that hard to modify our behaviour?

The sad fact is that very few people here give a flying fuck. Just look at people heading out of supermarkets with trolleys full of bottled water, using the car to go half a mile, never recycling - this is the vast, vast majority and if they can't even do those simple things I'm resigned to the fact that nothing is going to happen.

[epwc]

The sad fact is that very few people here give a flying fuck. Just look at people heading out of supermarkets with trolleys full of bottled water, using the car to go half a mile, never recycling - this is the vast, vast majority and if they can't even do those simple things I'm resigned to the fact that nothing is going to happen.

Yep, that's what I see too. Our office is next to a gym, I've never seen so many G Wagens, one of the muppets even has a Hummer, WTF???

So much stuff we can all do.

[petej]

But we have a huge amount more impact per capita than the average Indian or African, we're creating the problem, surely it can't be that hard to modify our behaviour?

The sad fact is that very few people here give a flying fuck. Just look at people heading out of supermarkets with trolleys full of bottled water, using the car to go half a mile, never recycling - this is the vast, vast majority and if they can't even do those simple things I'm resigned to the fact that nothing is going to happen.

Lots is happening. A lot people do give a flying fuck. We have had decreasing meat consumption and energy consumption for 20+ years. People buy more 2nd hand clothes and goods than I can remember. Our electricity is increasingly renewables based. Reporting can be very negative and make it feel pointless. Air quality has actually massively improved.

[Paddington Bear]

As Brits, if we were really serious SUVs wouldn’t have exploded in popularity like they have. As a world, if we were really serious we wouldn’t see the sheer weight of coal and plastic and just general not giving a shit that you see across Asia.

[petej]

This is just a single article from todays papers:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... et-weather

There are still plenty of farmers who are deniers, my mate Richard for example who blames it all on uncleared ditches and river systems. He doesn't have his own farm he works for other people, lost a seed drill about 2 weeks ago, up to the axles in a soggy bit of a field. The farmer in question (mid Essex) had already lost appx 30% of autumn sown crops and will now have very little time to get any spring sown stuff in (if we actually get a run of dry weather).

The UK isn't anywhere near the worst affected country in terms of agricultural output, and of course in poorer parts of the world this is literally the difference between life and death.

Even if Israel manage to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (or vice versa in some parallel universe) this will be nothing compared to the losses through climate events and lost crops in a few years time.

Why do we care so little about something that will in the end affect all of us?

Unblocking rivers and similar just moves the problem elsewhere bit it is simple so appeals. Some of the trying to maximise output (lean behaviours) has probably lowered resilience of these sort of things.

[epwc]

Lots is happening. A lot people do give a flying fuck. We have had decreasing meat consumption and energy consumption for 20+ years. People buy more 2nd hand clothes and goods than I can remember. Our electricity is increasingly renewables based. Reporting can be very negative and make it feel pointless. Air quality has actually massively improved.

But lots more could be happening, building regs in the UK are pathetic, as a small developer we have committed to passivhaus standards voluntarily. There is absolutely no incentive for anyone to do this, we are doing it because we know it's right. In the development we've just completed tenants are seeing heating costs at least 75% lower than a standard build.

But unless it's mandated then it will not become the norm.

Agree on 2nd hand clothes, had my girls fighting over all my knackered denim shirts and stuff a couple of years ago and all three of them buy more clothes in charity shops than brand new. But the material world has completely overwhelmed us now, everyone wants everything.

[epwc]

Unblocking rivers and similar just moves the problem elsewhere bit it is simple so appeals.

He knows enough about how river systems and field drainage work to know this to be true BUT as far as he's concerned this is normal and is all down to mismanagement of the waterways, anything to deflect away from climate change.

[Tichtheid]

I think the one thing individuals can do is switch to a plant-based diet, or at least cut way back on meat and dairy.

Take public transport, don't fly short haul, err, make your garden or window boxes bee-friendly.

[epwc]

I think the one thing individuals can do is switch to a plant-based diet

We did in 2020, really do not miss meat at all, not even a little bit. We don't really use any fake meat products except for veggie sausages

[epwc]

don't fly short haul

It's not even that, one of my wife's mates who has a place in Spain went there on a day trip with 4 mates last year because there were flights available at £4.99 return.

That's seriously mental.

[petej]

Lots is happening. A lot people do give a flying fuck. We have had decreasing meat consumption and energy consumption for 20+ years. People buy more 2nd hand clothes and goods than I can remember. Our electricity is increasingly renewables based. Reporting can be very negative and make it feel pointless. Air quality has actually massively improved.

But lots more could be happening, building regs in the UK are pathetic, as a small developer we have committed to passivhaus standards voluntarily. There is absolutely no incentive for anyone to do this, we are doing it because we know it's right. In the development we've just completed tenants are seeing heating costs at least 75% lower than a standard build.

But unless it's mandated then it will not become the norm.

Agree on 2nd hand clothes, had my girls fighting over all my knackered denim shirts and stuff a couple of years ago and all three of them buy more clothes in charity shops than brand new. But the material world has completely overwhelmed us now, everyone wants everything.

Agree totally on housing. Trying to get my house towards EnerPHIT but the next step is the big one of MVHR and haven't got around to CAD modelling the house properly (though done all the measurements).

[Tichtheid]

I think the one thing individuals can do is switch to a plant-based diet

We did in 2020, really do not miss meat at all, not even a little bit. We don't really use any fake meat products except for veggie sausages

I'm the only non-vegan in my family, I went vegan for a while but I occasionally eat meat and/or cheese, but I've cut way down from the amount I used to eat.

I've found I really don't like milk or ice-cream anymore.

[epwc]

Trying to get my house towards EnerPHIT but the next step is the big one of MVHR and haven't got around to CAD modelling the house properly (though done all the measurements).

The incidental benefits of passivhaus aren’t even recognised, the apartments we’ve just built are in an urban location on several bus routes. With MVHR you hardly notice the traffic noise and clearly air quality will be a lot better than “naturally” venting.

[petej]

Trying to get my house towards EnerPHIT but the next step is the big one of MVHR and haven't got around to CAD modelling the house properly (though done all the measurements).

The incidental benefits of passivhaus aren’t even recognised, the apartments we’ve just built are in an urban location on several bus routes. With MVHR you hardly notice the traffic noise and clearly air quality will be a lot better than “naturally” venting.

Plus removal VOCs, any viruses in the air.
The focus is all on heatpumps which is a bit retarded really as if you do the heatpump before mvhr you end up with a incorrectly sized heat pump. Being retarded is what our government does well.

[Slick]

But we have a huge amount more impact per capita than the average Indian or African, we're creating the problem, surely it can't be that hard to modify our behaviour?

The sad fact is that very few people here give a flying fuck. Just look at people heading out of supermarkets with trolleys full of bottled water, using the car to go half a mile, never recycling - this is the vast, vast majority and if they can't even do those simple things I'm resigned to the fact that nothing is going to happen.

Lots is happening. A lot people do give a flying fuck. We have had decreasing meat consumption and energy consumption for 20+ years. People buy more 2nd hand clothes and goods than I can remember. Our electricity is increasingly renewables based. Reporting can be very negative and make it feel pointless. Air quality has actually massively improved.

I could have phrased that better. There are obviously a lot of great things happening with renewable energy, air quality etc, but this has nothing to do with Average Joe. I'm quite happy to stick by the statement that the vast, vast majority of folk don't give a fuck.

Re diet, I'm probably 99% veggie now, although the original decision less to do with environment and more to do with killing animals. Lorne sausage and bacon are my 1%....

[Guy Smiley]

I lived and worked in Western Australia for almost 30 years and watched as the effects of changing climate slowly bore down harder on the locals despite their wilful ignorance... the entire south west of the state (where the population is concentrated) has been suffering changed and reduced rainfall patterns for most of that 30 years. The north of the state is tropical and has a cyclone season which varies wildly from year to year but the extreme flooding events from heavy rainfall, each one a record breaker doesn't seem to register as being part of a larger pattern.

One the other side of the coin, way back in the early days of private rooftop solar the state government offered a buy back tariff scheme so owners could recoup some of the initial cost of installation... over the years, that scheme had to be wound back progressively as the uptake of pv arrays was too much for the main energy retailer to afford the buy back. I think WA still has the greatest density of private rooftop solar uptake going around and that is pretty much solely due to consumer choice over any incentive... people realised the financial benefit, basically.

I think that financial benefit is the single greatest driver for changing habits there is currently... as the energy markets are swinging over to renewables as source generators the overall sentiment will shift in favour of cleaner options and that will soak into more widespread thinking about habits. I just don't know that we've got time on our side to allow incremental change like that to manage any transition and the worry is that there seems to be widespread government resistance to mandating change. It would seem the fossil fuel industry at large has captured most governments and holds them hostage.

The interesting shift (and I use the term cynically) will be any collapse in a major environmental driver, like the great ocean currents or the inevitable loss of ice cover in the mountain ranges that provides fresh water. The Himalayan ice cap (the Third Pole) is shrinking and it's fucking terrifying to reflect on how many human lives live downstream of that.

[epwc]

The interesting shift (and I use the term cynically) will be any collapse in a major environmental driver, like the great ocean currents or the inevitable loss of ice cover in the mountain ranges that provides fresh water. The Himalayan ice cap (the Third Pole) is shrinking and it's fucking terrifying to reflect on how many human lives live downstream of that.

I still have family who farm there (we're Punjabi), the conditions are mental now. Huge untimely downpours, heat like you wouldn't believe, it was 42C there last Easter, should have been 25-26. Most plants are physically incapable of growing at over 37C.

[epwc]

Lorne sausage and bacon are my 1%....

Never tried it but so often tempted by a bacon sarnie

[epwc]

The focus is all on heatpumps which is a bit retarded really as if you do the heatpump before mvhr you end up with a incorrectly sized heat pump. Being retarded is what our government does well.

It's mental, even more so if you haven't done the insulation first.

This government is as bad as some in the developing world

[Guy Smiley]

The interesting shift (and I use the term cynically) will be any collapse in a major environmental driver, like the great ocean currents or the inevitable loss of ice cover in the mountain ranges that provides fresh water. The Himalayan ice cap (the Third Pole) is shrinking and it's fucking terrifying to reflect on how many human lives live downstream of that.

I still have family who farm there (we're Punjabi), the conditions are mental now. Huge untimely downpours, heat like you wouldn't believe, it was 42C there last Easter, should have been 25-26. Most plants are physically incapable of growing at over 37C.

This article is in my Reddit feed right now....
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir ... sks-study/

Extreme heat linked to climate change threatens more than 70 percent of workers globally, according to a report released Monday by the International Labor Organization (ILO).

More than 2.4 billion of the world’s workers were at risk for some level of exposure to extreme heat based on data from 2020, the most recent year for which data was available. The ILO also found that the percentage is growing, up from about 65 percent of workers in 2000.

**********************************

The data used for the report predates 2023, which saw both the hottest summer on record and was the hottest overall year on record.

[Enzedder]

The sooner it comes and the reset can begin, the better. The cost may be a few billion lives but it is the only way we will learn.

Government's make the call and they make decisions based on the next election, not the long-term condition of the planet.

[Slick]

Lorne sausage and bacon are my 1%....

Never tried it but so often tempted by a bacon sarnie

Don’t , it’s a slippery slope!

As an aside, I don’t think I know a Jewish person in the U.K. that doesn’t enjoy a secret bacon sarnie

[Biffer]

I've cut down on meat, not t gone veggie. Trying to work towards the Eat-Lancet diet.

[Niegs]

On thrifting, though, it's still part of a cycle of buying shit we don't need and feeling good (or not caring) about recycling it. I have worked for one that deals more in housewares, furniture, etc. - not clothes* - and I'd say only about half of what comes up to the donation bay gets sold. Most of the other half is turned away because it's crap - Ikea, Wayfair, or worse that's not in good shape at all - or there isn't the space, and so it likely goes to landfill. I saw more solid wood stuff pre-1980s come and go rather than still-good pressboard things. People can refinish the former if not in great shape. I imagine the majority of us don't buy furniture and housewares these days that even last ten years, let alone a lifetime. And the store itself bins a significant amount each week that's been sitting too long to make way for 'better' stuff.

I also see a LOT of lights and electronics get donated and trashed immediately because we can move it to recycling for free. Recycling should be good, but I still see it as unnecessary creation of goods and all of the resources that go into processing the recycling (apparently all of Victoria's electronics recycling goes to Seattle?). But perfectly good fixtures and appliances are swapped out either because they're 'upgrading' to something better/newer or on nothing more than a whim (if I had a dollar for every husband who said 'The wife says it's time for a change...' ... and I'm sure plenty a missus would say the same about power tool upgrades for her fella.)

* on clothing, our biggest chain here (which some people don't like because they don't see them as a 'charity' and prices have gone up significantly) does probably more recycling of undesireable/unsellable clothing than the rest, but the numbers that go to waste are still dramatically high: https://www.digitsandthreads.ca/skeleto ... in-canada/ So it's good to give something a second life, but a lot of it is still stuff that, imo, shouldn't be produced in the first place.

I really don't expect to see any major, impactful changes in my lifetime given the attitudes of people now and it'll no-doubt get way worse before it gets better because we only seem to act appropriately when there's a massive disaster that affects us personally.

[Niegs]

[dpedin]

I read somewhere that every 1 degree increase in global temperatures leads to a 7% increase in moisture in the air which inevitably has to fall somewhere and this year so far it all seems to have fallen on Edinburgh! We have had huge increases in rainfall with the corresponding impact on the local environment. Folk seem to think that climate change will happen suddenly like in the movies but it is akin to the frog in a pot analogy. We will just have a gradual but inexorable increase in the water table, rivers slightly higher each year, ground flooding and not draining for months, agricultural land being flooded and unusable, etc.

Scotland is in the 'goldilocks' zone where most things are 'just right' in terms of rainfall, wind, moderate climate, etc. Everything is built and run on this basis - housing on flood plains, railway lines running right along the coast, poorly insulated houses, etc - and it doesnt take much to bring things to a halt, too many storms, higher rainfall, higher temperatures etc and we are fecked.

The biggest impact of climate change will be huge changes in food production and supply, food shortages and famine will be disastrous for many countries and lead to huge levels of migration north in the northern hemisphere with all the resulting issues that will drive.

[assfly]

The view from my side of the world, where the affects are supposed to be worst felt, are so different to Europe.

It's not a priority. Most people are more concerned with getting a good meal at the end of the day and paying rent.

[Blackmac]

I do every little thing I can. Take public transport as often as possible, recycle like a madman, insulted the house as well as possible and whatever else I can do. On the other hand my daughter who constantly lectures us on the environmental damage our generation has done, gets two or three parcels of shit, sweatshop clothes delivered every day. 99% is then returned and what she does keep probably only gets used once as the cycle continues.

[Slick]

I read somewhere that every 1 degree increase in global temperatures leads to a 7% increase in moisture in the air which inevitably has to fall somewhere and this year so far it all seems to have fallen on Edinburgh! We have had huge increases in rainfall with the corresponding impact on the local environment. Folk seem to think that climate change will happen suddenly like in the movies but it is akin to the frog in a pot analogy. We will just have a gradual but inexorable increase in the water table, rivers slightly higher each year, ground flooding and not draining for months, agricultural land being flooded and unusable, etc.

Scotland is in the 'goldilocks' zone where most things are 'just right' in terms of rainfall, wind, moderate climate, etc. Everything is built and run on this basis - housing on flood plains, railway lines running right along the coast, poorly insulated houses, etc - and it doesnt take much to bring things to a halt, too many storms, higher rainfall, higher temperatures etc and we are fecked.

The biggest impact of climate change will be huge changes in food production and supply, food shortages and famine will be disastrous for many countries and lead to huge levels of migration north in the northern hemisphere with all the resulting issues that will drive.

I was speaking to an Edinburgh roofer chap the other day and he was saying that most of what they get called to these days are gutters and pipes that can’t cope with the increase in rainfall. It’s costing people several thousand pounds to increase the size of the pipes and in many older buildings it’s practically impossible. Absolute carnage on the horizon in his opinion

[epwc]

The view from my side of the world, where the affects are supposed to be worst felt, are so different to Europe.

It's not a priority. Most people are more concerned with getting a good meal at the end of the day and paying rent.

On that side of the world if there were good governance then there is actually huge potential to leapfrog the west in terms of infrastructure, I believe Kenya is doing ok with regards to ev and solar but there’s plenty could be done.

The problems are pretty much all our side of the world

We’ve created a society where we treat material goods as markers of status and antidepressants, there’s something deeply wrong with us.

Maybe that’s what happens when you take a species that evolved as hunter gatherers/ subsistence farmers and suddenly (in evolutionary terms) every day life is no longer a matter of life or death.

[assfly]

On that side of the world if there were good governance then there is actually huge potential to leapfrog the west in terms of infrastructure, I believe Kenya is doing ok with regards to ev and solar but there’s plenty could be done.

The problems are pretty much all our side of the world

We’ve created a society where we treat material goods as markers of status and antidepressants, there’s something deeply wrong with us.

Maybe that’s what happens when you take a species that evolved as hunter gatherers/ subsistence farmers and suddenly (in evolutionary terms) every day life is no longer a matter of life or death.

We're good in terms of renewable energy. I believe that about 90% of our electricity is from renewables, mostly geothermal.
But the transition to electric vehicles is going to take a generation. We are a dumping ground for second hand Japanese cars, and they're much cheaper than the new EVs. Plus our network of charging points is laughable.

[sturginho]

insulted the house

what did you say to it?

[laurent]

insulted the house

what did you say to it?

Take that rockwool up your arse

[Hal Jordan]

People can't even be arsed to clean up their dog's mess pr put litter in the bin. They literally don't care.

[I like neeps]

Every single affluent person in the world would drastically have to change their behaviour and accept a worse standard of living. People aren't in the business of doing that.

[Tichtheid]

insulted the house

what did you say to it?

dammit, I read that an hour ago and was going to come back to it, you got in there whilst I went to make a coffee

I like a good typo.

[Tichtheid]

Every single affluent person in the world would drastically have to change their behaviour and accept a worse standard of living. People aren't in the business of doing that.

People can and do change - we take our own bags to the supermarket, we drive at 20mph in towns, we wear seatbelts, we are gradually moving over to EVs. Reining in rampant consumerism of shit we don't need which has been made in sweatshops on the other side of the world and shipped here in huge container ships and then carried to us daily, sometimes two or three times a day in vans and cars, whilst deliveroo scooters zub around delivering breakfast lunch and tea, that crap is all fairly recent, moving away from that wouldn't be a worse standard of living.

The huge container ships don't go back to China empty handed, in some cases they stop off and pick up staggering amounts of tropical hardwoods in Africa and India and ship them back to China where it's turned into veneers for cheap furniture or knock-off musical instruments