SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 11:37 am
Huw Jones says fuck you!!!!
Agree. At the moment, Jones is possibly the standout centre after the Irish.
Stand out centre full stop at the moment I reckon. Though Ringrose would be pushing him
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 1:18 pm
by Big D
Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 11:13 am
Seeing as there's been a few bits on some other threads, let's have a way too early Lions squad thread.
Shit fights over the last few spots, commence! You are absolutely permitted to be petty and nationalistic.
From the Scottish squad I can see Schoeman, Fagerson, Russell, Tuipolotou, Van der Merwe and Kinghorn as very strong prospects for the squad.
Others in the running would be Cummings, Ritchie, Darge, White, Graham.
Squad will be dominated by the Irish, there'll be a fair number of big English lumps in the forwards. Welsh may have a very small representation.
I said on the other thread I think Scotland will end up with 6-10. Probably with 3rd most behind Ireland and England as I think more English forwards will go compared to us.
Likely on the planes Scots for me:
Russell
Tuipulotu
Russell
Jones
A good chance:
Fagerson (Z)
Schoeman
Their play possibly merits consideration but in competitive positions:
Duhan
Graham
Kinghorn
Fagerson (M)
Dempsey
White
Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 11:13 am
Seeing as there's been a few bits on some other threads, let's have a way too early Lions squad thread.
Shit fights over the last few spots, commence! You are absolutely permitted to be petty and nationalistic.
From the Scottish squad I can see Schoeman, Fagerson, Russell, Tuipolotou, Van der Merwe and Kinghorn as very strong prospects for the squad.
Others in the running would be Cummings, Ritchie, Darge, White, Graham.
Squad will be dominated by the Irish, there'll be a fair number of big English lumps in the forwards. Welsh may have a very small representation.
I said on the other thread I think Scotland will end up with 6-10. Probably with 3rd most behind Ireland and England as I think more English forwards will go compared to us.
Likely on the planes Scots for me:
Russell
Tuipulotu
Russell
Jones
A good chance:
Fagerson (Z)
Schoeman
Their play possibly merits consideration but in competitive positions:
Duhan
Graham
Kinghorn
Fagerson (M)
Dempsey
White
Outside but slim chances:
Darge
Cummings
Finn Russell so nailed on that he gets two seats on the plane.
Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 11:13 am
Seeing as there's been a few bits on some other threads, let's have a way too early Lions squad thread.
Shit fights over the last few spots, commence! You are absolutely permitted to be petty and nationalistic.
From the Scottish squad I can see Schoeman, Fagerson, Russell, Tuipolotou, Van der Merwe and Kinghorn as very strong prospects for the squad.
Others in the running would be Cummings, Ritchie, Darge, White, Graham.
Squad will be dominated by the Irish, there'll be a fair number of big English lumps in the forwards. Welsh may have a very small representation.
I said on the other thread I think Scotland will end up with 6-10. Probably with 3rd most behind Ireland and England as I think more English forwards will go compared to us.
Likely on the planes Scots for me:
Russell
Tuipulotu
Russell
Jones
A good chance:
Fagerson (Z)
Schoeman
Their play possibly merits consideration but in competitive positions:
Duhan
Graham
Kinghorn
Fagerson (M)
Dempsey
White
Outside but slim chances:
Darge
Cummings
Finn Russell so nailed on that he gets two seats on the plane.
Russell might as well get his in-flight dinner order in now, no chance he's not on the plane.
Fagerson the fatter has looked decent the last few times I've seen him, depends who goes alongside Furlong.
For England, I've no idea why Underhill seems so in and out of the national team even when fit, he's phenomenal. Hopefully Farrell has two working eyes in his head. Saying that, the backrow looks competitive across the home nations, so could be any blend. The loosehead jersey looks the most up for grabs.
I said on the other thread I think Scotland will end up with 6-10. Probably with 3rd most behind Ireland and England as I think more English forwards will go compared to us.
Likely on the planes Scots for me:
Russell
Tuipulotu
Russell
Jones
A good chance:
Fagerson (Z)
Schoeman
Their play possibly merits consideration but in competitive positions:
Duhan
Graham
Kinghorn
Fagerson (M)
Dempsey
White
Outside but slim chances:
Darge
Cummings
Finn Russell so nailed on that he gets two seats on the plane.
Russell might as well get his in-flight dinner order in now, no chance he's not on the plane.
Fagerson the fatter has looked decent the last few times I've seen him, depends who goes alongside Furlong.
For England, I've no idea why Underhill seems so in and out of the national team even when fit, he's phenomenal. Hopefully Farrell has two working eyes in his head. Saying that, the backrow looks competitive across the home nations, so could be any blend. The loosehead jersey looks the most up for grabs.
Fitness permitting Underhill will surely be there. Openside is a fabulously competitive position. VdF, Underhill, Morgan and Darge could all have big 6N. Reffell too has been decent for Wales when I've seen him.
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 5:04 pm
by Slick
el capitan wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:32 pm
1. Marler
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Martin
6. Lawes
7. CCS
8. Billy
9. JVP
10. Faz
11. Nowell
12. Slade
13. Tuilagi
14. May
15. Steward
I said on the other thread I think Scotland will end up with 6-10. Probably with 3rd most behind Ireland and England as I think more English forwards will go compared to us.
Likely on the planes Scots for me:
Russell
Tuipulotu
Russell
Jones
A good chance:
Fagerson (Z)
Schoeman
Their play possibly merits consideration but in competitive positions:
Duhan
Graham
Kinghorn
Fagerson (M)
Dempsey
White
Outside but slim chances:
Darge
Cummings
Finn Russell so nailed on that he gets two seats on the plane.
Russell might as well get his in-flight dinner order in now, no chance he's not on the plane.
Fagerson the fatter has looked decent the last few times I've seen him, depends who goes alongside Furlong.
For England, I've no idea why Underhill seems so in and out of the national team even when fit, he's phenomenal. Hopefully Farrell has two working eyes in his head. Saying that, the backrow looks competitive across the home nations, so could be any blend. The loosehead jersey looks the most up for grabs.
Think Porter and Schoeman will definitely be there at loosehead
Finn Russell so nailed on that he gets two seats on the plane.
Russell might as well get his in-flight dinner order in now, no chance he's not on the plane.
Fagerson the fatter has looked decent the last few times I've seen him, depends who goes alongside Furlong.
For England, I've no idea why Underhill seems so in and out of the national team even when fit, he's phenomenal. Hopefully Farrell has two working eyes in his head. Saying that, the backrow looks competitive across the home nations, so could be any blend. The loosehead jersey looks the most up for grabs.
Think Porter and Schoeman will definitely be there at loosehead
Think Genge might be in the mix. I'm not a huge fan of Porter, he seems to need a bit too much refereeing leeway in the scrum.
Finn Russell so nailed on that he gets two seats on the plane.
Russell might as well get his in-flight dinner order in now, no chance he's not on the plane.
Fagerson the fatter has looked decent the last few times I've seen him, depends who goes alongside Furlong.
For England, I've no idea why Underhill seems so in and out of the national team even when fit, he's phenomenal. Hopefully Farrell has two working eyes in his head. Saying that, the backrow looks competitive across the home nations, so could be any blend. The loosehead jersey looks the most up for grabs.
Fitness permitting Underhill will surely be there. Openside is a fabulously competitive position. VdF, Underhill, Morgan and Darge could all have big 6N. Reffell too has been decent for Wales when I've seen him.
Fagerson Z is, to me, clear of the rest of the THs in second place behind Furlong.
I don’t think there’s a back row forward in any of the four nations who’s nailed on. Hugely competitive.
Centre and back three is also very competitive imo.
Fagerson Z is, to me, clear of the rest of the THs in second place behind Furlong.
Furlong now isn't the Furlong of four, five years ago. I'm not sure he's head and shoulders in front of Zander.
I didn’t want to say that because the horde on the other place have probably all had a shiver down their backs and are currently registering here to roundly abuse you
Fagerson Z is, to me, clear of the rest of the THs in second place behind Furlong.
Furlong now isn't the Furlong of four, five years ago. I'm not sure he's head and shoulders in front of Zander.
I didn’t want to say that because the horde on the other place have probably all had a shiver down their backs and are currently registering here to roundly abuse you
Furlong now isn't the Furlong of four, five years ago. I'm not sure he's head and shoulders in front of Zander.
I didn’t want to say that because the horde on the other place have probably all had a shiver down their backs and are currently registering here to roundly abuse you
Bring it!
steady on
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 7:20 pm
by S/Lt_Phillips
Wales isn't going to have much representation, based on today, and can't see them looking much better against SA next weekend. The front row did well today, but I think the only players that stand out are Reffell and Jac Morgan - and as noted the backrow is going to be a tough choice for the selectors.
Fagerson Z is, to me, clear of the rest of the THs in second place behind Furlong.
Furlong now isn't the Furlong of four, five years ago. I'm not sure he's head and shoulders in front of Zander.
I didn’t want to say that because the horde on the other place have probably all had a shiver down their backs and are currently registering here to roundly abuse you
The “swarm” please
Agree about Furlong
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:47 pm
by JM2K6
Underhill went through a period of missing tackles and being shite for England in a competitive position, and he's also not quick, not a lineout option, and not top tier at stealing ball on the floor. At his best he's a huge asset, but if he's not at his best he doesn't have a lot to fall back on.
Fagerson Z is, to me, clear of the rest of the THs in second place behind Furlong.
Furlong now isn't the Furlong of four, five years ago. I'm not sure he's head and shoulders in front of Zander.
He's also missing a lot of matches so his body may not be up to it anymore.
Should be a decent scrap to get picked and I reckon it'll be fairly even between Eng/Sco/Ire and then a few token taffs.
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 9:14 pm
by inactionman
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:47 pmUnderhill went through a period of missing tackles and being shite for England in a competitive position, and he's also not quick, not a lineout option, and not top tier at stealing ball on the floor. At his best he's a huge asset, but if he's not at his best he doesn't have a lot to fall back on.
He had a series of injuries, including a lot of head hits, and played a few England matches without much club rugby where he wasn't up to speed, but claims he was shite is - simply - just incorrect.
I appreciate he's running past Mike Brown which would make me look fast, but he's hardly slow.
Also, if you think he's not good on the floor you must have been watching someone else.
Fagerson Z is, to me, clear of the rest of the THs in second place behind Furlong.
Furlong now isn't the Furlong of four, five years ago. I'm not sure he's head and shoulders in front of Zander.
I didn’t want to say that because the horde on the other place have probably all had a shiver down their backs and are currently registering here to roundly abuse you
Nah it's a fair observation. Wouldn't necessarily write it off a permanent downturn - he's had his share of injuries and some personal issues, but I don't think you'd have too many people that would argue against you saying he's not the same player he was.
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:54 am
by dpedin
Anyone willing or brave enough to suggest some Welsh players that justify selection for the Lions?
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:55 am
by SaintK
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:54 am
Anyone willing or brave enough to suggest some Welsh players that justify selection for the Lions?
Aaron Wainwright. Head and shoulders their best player and Dewi Lake errr that's it!
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:04 am
by Rhubarb & Custard
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:54 am
Anyone willing or brave enough to suggest some Welsh players that justify selection for the Lions?
I will happily champion any Welsh players over the lions getting their grubby little mitts on an English player. I would much prefer the English lads be on a beach somewhere sipping a mai thai
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:54 am
Anyone willing or brave enough to suggest some Welsh players that justify selection for the Lions?
Aaron Wainwright. Head and shoulders their best player and Dewi Lake errr that's it!
Maybe Reffell and Jac Morgan, but they're up against high quality flanker options from all the other 3 nations. Mind you, Wainwright up against decent options at 8 too, not least Doris.
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:54 am
Anyone willing or brave enough to suggest some Welsh players that justify selection for the Lions?
Aaron Wainwright. Head and shoulders their best player and Dewi Lake errr that's it!
Maybe Reffell and Jac Morgan, but they're up against high quality flanker options from all the other 3 nations. Mind you, Wainwright up against decent options at 8 too, not least Doris.
Slim pickings from Wales this time around.
Given that they are about as rank as Scotland were when Hogg and Seymour were their only Lions - who would be the best token Welsh winger to ensure the four-nation Lions badge is done justice? Wainwright and Morgan are in the mix because they deserve to be, but given the back row strengths of the other three nations...I wouldn't personally pick Wainwright over Doris and Dempsey,
SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:55 am
Aaron Wainwright. Head and shoulders their best player and Dewi Lake errr that's it!
Maybe Reffell and Jac Morgan, but they're up against high quality flanker options from all the other 3 nations. Mind you, Wainwright up against decent options at 8 too, not least Doris.
Slim pickings from Wales this time around.
Given that they are about as rank as Scotland were when Hogg and Seymour were their only Lions - who would be the best token Welsh winger to ensure the four-nation Lions badge is done justice? Wainwright and Morgan are in the mix because they deserve to be, but given the back row strengths of the other three nations...I wouldn't personally pick Wainwright over Doris and Dempsey,
Shame Rees-Zammit has done a bunk, although he's not a very well rounded rugby player.
I can't really see any standout options. I had high hopes for Regan Grace in Union but sadly his injuries have been significant and he's not featured.
Maybe Reffell and Jac Morgan, but they're up against high quality flanker options from all the other 3 nations. Mind you, Wainwright up against decent options at 8 too, not least Doris.
Slim pickings from Wales this time around.
Given that they are about as rank as Scotland were when Hogg and Seymour were their only Lions - who would be the best token Welsh winger to ensure the four-nation Lions badge is done justice? Wainwright and Morgan are in the mix because they deserve to be, but given the back row strengths of the other three nations...I wouldn't personally pick Wainwright over Doris and Dempsey,
Shame Rees-Zammit has done a bunk, although he's not a very well rounded rugby player.
I can't really see any standout options. I had high hopes for Regan Grace in Union but sadly his injuries have been significant and he's not featured.
Thought Rogers the Welsh 14 from Scarlets looked the part yesterday all things considered.
The more interesting question though is how many players currently in FRance might force their way into Farrell's squad?
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:47 pmUnderhill went through a period of missing tackles and being shite for England in a competitive position, and he's also not quick, not a lineout option, and not top tier at stealing ball on the floor. At his best he's a huge asset, but if he's not at his best he doesn't have a lot to fall back on.
He had a series of injuries, including a lot of head hits, and played a few England matches without much club rugby where he wasn't up to speed, but claims he was shite is - simply - just incorrect.
I appreciate he's running past Mike Brown which would make me look fast, but he's hardly slow.
Also, if you think he's not good on the floor you must have been watching someone else.
I don't think a clip from the 70s is all that relevant tbh. He is the slowest 7 currently available to us
It's not that long ago that Underhill was doing little in an England shirt. Because he gets dropped quickly it's not an extended period but he wasn't good. Even against NZ in the summer he was pretty bad in the second test, missing a bunch of tackles, not getting near their ball at ruck time, and barely carrying. It wasn't that much better in the first Test, though he tackled much better at least
And no, I don't think he's top tier at stealing ball. He is nowhere near someone like Jack Willis or Will Evans or POM, guys like that who are genuine threats at every ruck. Is he bad? No. But it's not uncommon for him to go entire matches without stealing a ball or winning a penalty. Hence, not top tier. He's worse in that department than Tom Curry or Ben Earl and while it's not bad enough to be considered a personal weakness, it is an area where other players are superior which is going to count against him when his form isn't brilliant.
The point is that someone like Tom Curry, who clearly does get picked to start when not on great form, does so because he has more strings to his bow. Underhill at his best is a game changing destructive tackler who has added some serious carrying in recent years. When he's not at his best there is a huge drop off.
Anyway it feels weird to be posting negatively about someone who has just had an excellent game and deserves plaudits. I just do not agree with the idea that he's never bad for England and while he's not treated the same as other players, there's a reason for that
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:47 pmUnderhill went through a period of missing tackles and being shite for England in a competitive position, and he's also not quick, not a lineout option, and not top tier at stealing ball on the floor. At his best he's a huge asset, but if he's not at his best he doesn't have a lot to fall back on.
He had a series of injuries, including a lot of head hits, and played a few England matches without much club rugby where he wasn't up to speed, but claims he was shite is - simply - just incorrect.
I appreciate he's running past Mike Brown which would make me look fast, but he's hardly slow.
Also, if you think he's not good on the floor you must have been watching someone else.
I don't think a clip from the 70s is all that relevant tbh. He is the slowest 7 currently available to us
It's not that long ago that Underhill was doing little in an England shirt. Because he gets dropped quickly it's not an extended period but he wasn't good. Even against NZ in the summer he was pretty bad in the second test, missing a bunch of tackles, not getting near their ball at ruck time, and barely carrying. It wasn't that much better in the first Test, though he tackled much better at least
And no, I don't think he's top tier at stealing ball. He is nowhere near someone like Jack Willis or Will Evans or POM, guys like that who are genuine threats at every ruck. Is he bad? No. But it's not uncommon for him to go entire matches without stealing a ball or winning a penalty. Hence, not top tier. He's worse in that department than Tom Curry or Ben Earl and while it's not bad enough to be considered a personal weakness, it is an area where other players are superior which is going to count against him when his form isn't brilliant.
The point is that someone like Tom Curry, who clearly does get picked to start when not on great form, does so because he has more strings to his bow. Underhill at his best is a game changing destructive tackler who has added some serious carrying in recent years. When he's not at his best there is a huge drop off.
Anyway it feels weird to be posting negatively about someone who has just had an excellent game and deserves plaudits. I just do not agree with the idea that he's never bad for England and while he's not treated the same as other players, there's a reason for that
That argument has never been made, and it's true for every player under the sun. For some reason, you just seem to only see the poor games.
He had a series of injuries, including a lot of head hits, and played a few England matches without much club rugby where he wasn't up to speed, but claims he was shite is - simply - just incorrect.
I appreciate he's running past Mike Brown which would make me look fast, but he's hardly slow.
Also, if you think he's not good on the floor you must have been watching someone else.
I don't think a clip from the 70s is all that relevant tbh. He is the slowest 7 currently available to us
It's not that long ago that Underhill was doing little in an England shirt. Because he gets dropped quickly it's not an extended period but he wasn't good. Even against NZ in the summer he was pretty bad in the second test, missing a bunch of tackles, not getting near their ball at ruck time, and barely carrying. It wasn't that much better in the first Test, though he tackled much better at least
And no, I don't think he's top tier at stealing ball. He is nowhere near someone like Jack Willis or Will Evans or POM, guys like that who are genuine threats at every ruck. Is he bad? No. But it's not uncommon for him to go entire matches without stealing a ball or winning a penalty. Hence, not top tier. He's worse in that department than Tom Curry or Ben Earl and while it's not bad enough to be considered a personal weakness, it is an area where other players are superior which is going to count against him when his form isn't brilliant.
The point is that someone like Tom Curry, who clearly does get picked to start when not on great form, does so because he has more strings to his bow. Underhill at his best is a game changing destructive tackler who has added some serious carrying in recent years. When he's not at his best there is a huge drop off.
Anyway it feels weird to be posting negatively about someone who has just had an excellent game and deserves plaudits. I just do not agree with the idea that he's never bad for England and while he's not treated the same as other players, there's a reason for that
That argument has never been made, and it's true for every player under the sun. For some reason, you just seem to only see the poor games.
We're just never going to agree on this, are we?
"when fit, he's phenomenal" is pretty clear cut as an argument.
As for only seeing the poor games, that's just silly. I'm saying the poor games do exist, adding some views on why I think he's more likely to get dropped than others, repeatedly talked about how good he is when on form, and went out of my way to reiterate he has just had an excellent game. You read what you want to read, I guess
I don't think a clip from the 70s is all that relevant tbh. He is the slowest 7 currently available to us
It's not that long ago that Underhill was doing little in an England shirt. Because he gets dropped quickly it's not an extended period but he wasn't good. Even against NZ in the summer he was pretty bad in the second test, missing a bunch of tackles, not getting near their ball at ruck time, and barely carrying. It wasn't that much better in the first Test, though he tackled much better at least
And no, I don't think he's top tier at stealing ball. He is nowhere near someone like Jack Willis or Will Evans or POM, guys like that who are genuine threats at every ruck. Is he bad? No. But it's not uncommon for him to go entire matches without stealing a ball or winning a penalty. Hence, not top tier. He's worse in that department than Tom Curry or Ben Earl and while it's not bad enough to be considered a personal weakness, it is an area where other players are superior which is going to count against him when his form isn't brilliant.
The point is that someone like Tom Curry, who clearly does get picked to start when not on great form, does so because he has more strings to his bow. Underhill at his best is a game changing destructive tackler who has added some serious carrying in recent years. When he's not at his best there is a huge drop off.
Anyway it feels weird to be posting negatively about someone who has just had an excellent game and deserves plaudits. I just do not agree with the idea that he's never bad for England and while he's not treated the same as other players, there's a reason for that
That argument has never been made, and it's true for every player under the sun. For some reason, you just seem to only see the poor games.
We're just never going to agree on this, are we?
"when fit, he's phenomenal" is pretty clear cut as an argument.
As for only seeing the poor games, that's just silly. I'm saying the poor games do exist, adding some views on why I think he's more likely to get dropped than others, repeatedly talked about how good he is when on form, and went out of my way to reiterate he has just had an excellent game. You read what you want to read, I guess
The statement:
I just do not agree with the idea that he's never bad for England
does not reflect any argument I've made.
You read what you want to read, I guess
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:25 pm
by JM2K6
Okay. So your argument is when he's fit he's phenomenal, yes? Not occasionally, not at his best, just if he's fit he's phenomenal.
You can take it as read that that's what I'm arguing against. A fit Underhill has put in poor / mediocre performances for England in the past. Like, for example, over the summer.
Edit: another thing I wanted to mention in his favour - his discipline is by far the best of our back rowers.
Re: Lions Squad - Who's In?
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:28 pm
by Poshprop
dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:54 am
Anyone willing or brave enough to suggest some Welsh players that justify selection for the Lions?
