Poaching Players
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Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.
For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.
Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.
Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.
For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.
Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.
Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.
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I'll admit I'm still not completely comfortable with Immanuel Feyi-Waboso playing for England and not Wales.
- OomStruisbaai
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YaaaaaawwwwnnnOomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:39 am Scots in the lead.
https://x.com/rugby365com/status/1861686703372558806
Quite.
Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.
The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.
Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though
I have Oom blocked now, his pish is tiresome.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am
Quite.
Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.
The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.
Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
- OomStruisbaai
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The Scots can poach as many Saffers as they like. We have so much depth , so its no worries.
Poaching an Aussie and making him captain is a bit weird. The closest they get to the Flower of Scotland is a Waratah.
Poaching an Aussie and making him captain is a bit weird. The closest they get to the Flower of Scotland is a Waratah.
Well the french stole one too ... a coquerel is a sized down cassowary so that worksOomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:05 pm The Scots can poach as many Saffers as they like. We have so much depth , so its no worries.
Poaching an Aussie and making him captain is a bit weird. The closest they get to the Flower of Scotland is a Waratah.
- OomStruisbaai
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The French can poach Saffers to. Most of our Afrikaans players have French blood. We share winemaking and rugby.laurent wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:09 pmWell the french stole one too ... a coquerel is a sized down cassowary so that worksOomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:05 pm The Scots can poach as many Saffers as they like. We have so much depth , so its no worries.
Poaching an Aussie and making him captain is a bit weird. The closest they get to the Flower of Scotland is a Waratah.
- OomStruisbaai
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Your ref bashing is fucking tiresome.Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:54 amI have Oom blocked now, his pish is tiresome.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am
Quite.
Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.
The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.
Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though
Ashman also played for England at age group. My mate coached him at England U20 and said he'd always made it clear he was going to opt for Scotland if he made it to full internationalTichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am
Quite.
Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.
The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.
Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though
SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:27 pmAshman also played for England at age group. My mate coached him at England U20 and said he'd always made it clear he was going to opt for Scotland if he made it to full internationalTichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am
Quite.
Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.
The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.
Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though
He played for Scotland at U16 and I think U18 level before the U20s with Scotland.
Was he in a wider squad for the England U20s? He never played for them as far as I'm aware.
The dual-qualified young players in England are often advised to keep their options open because it can affect them regarding club contracts
Hamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 am Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.
For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.
Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.
Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.
Apologies. The mists of time do strange things at my ageTichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:38 pmSaintK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:27 pmAshman also played for England at age group. My mate coached him at England U20 and said he'd always made it clear he was going to opt for Scotland if he made it to full internationalTichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:50 am
Quite.
Take two from the Scotland squad - Huw Jones, born in Edinburgh to English parents so "is not a poach" according to this thread, despite growing up and learning his rugby elsewhere.
Ewan Ashman, born in Toronto, so is a poach according to this thread, despite being, as many sons and daughters of ex-pats are, more Scottish in terms of how he looks at himself than many of those who were born in Scotland - there is no other country he would play for.
The whole concept of "poach" went out the window many years ago and it was a rather facile and parochial view forty, fifty years ago, let alone now.
Biffer really seems to have gotten under the skin of the OP though
He played for Scotland at U16 and I think U18 level before the U20s with Scotland.
Was he in a wider squad for the England U20s? He never played for them as far as I'm aware.
The dual-qualified young players in England are often advised to keep their options open because it can affect them regarding club contracts
My mate must have scouted him for England while he was at Sale. I can certainly recall a conversation with him telling me he was a good un though was going to call for Scotland.
Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
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I remember being very confused the first time I heard him speak. An individual with that name should not sound so English.robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:48 pmHamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 am Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.
For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.
Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.
Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.
- Guy Smiley
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Years back, I ducked into a touristy shop on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh to buy some memory trinket... the Sikh gentleman serving me had one of the most delightful Scottish accents I've ever heard. It was jarring. Clearly a born midfield back from his build, the Scottish poaching has no shame.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:14 pmI remember being very confused the first time I heard him speak. An individual with that name should not sound so English.robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:48 pmHamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 am Cool, once again we have to say that foreign born is a terrible metric.
For example, Sam Underhill was born in the US, but he moved back to England aged 1.
Even if they don't move back while young, players born abroad to patriotic parents from, say, Ireland can still be raised to think of themselves as Irish and want to play for Ireland. That player is not poached if they go on to do so.
Look, it's fun to poke at the Scots, this is just a bad way to do it.
Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:28 pmYears back, I ducked into a touristy shop on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh to buy some memory trinket... the Sikh gentleman serving me had one of the most delightful Scottish accents I've ever heard.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:14 pmI remember being very confused the first time I heard him speak. An individual with that name should not sound so English.robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:48 pm
Hamish Watson was born and raised in England but his parents chose to christen him Hamish Fergus Wallace Watson, which is possibly the maximum amount of Scottishness that you can squeeze into a set of forenames, so you can guess why he might have leaned towards representing Scotland.
Yeah, that's commonplace and very welcome*. Same as beautiful Italian women with thick Glaswegian accents, or the older Ukrainians on Scottish farms who had bewildering takes on the language - putting in swearwords between syllables and using the old Scots words with ease
*edited to add - we went to a Sikh wedding in Slough, it was my wife's best mate from school who was marrying into a Sikh family. The guys were all resplendent in their designer suits and had real wide-boy Thames estuary accents - same thing, I guess
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Calling Tom Jordan a peoject player is pretty wide of the mark for me too. Schoeman - yes. Like Nel before him, specifically brought over to solve the Scotland team's prop problem. Jordan - no. Comes to Scotland on a gap year adventure, plays for Ayr instead of one of the pro teams, gets noticed, works his way up and comes onto the radar because of that. There was no project, no plan for this to happen. It's just a lovely story.Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
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That would be bordering on surreal
Also worth pointing out that at the time some south african players thought they weren't going to get a fair crack of the whip due to the quota system. Whether they were right or wrong in that belief is another thing.clydecloggie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:05 pmCalling Tom Jordan a peoject player is pretty wide of the mark for me too. Schoeman - yes. Like Nel before him, specifically brought over to solve the Scotland team's prop problem. Jordan - no. Comes to Scotland on a gap year adventure, plays for Ayr instead of one of the pro teams, gets noticed, works his way up and comes onto the radar because of that. There was no project, no plan for this to happen. It's just a lovely story.Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
I assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 5:05 pmI assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
- OomStruisbaai
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I just read the Wikipedia article. Fascinating! I see that Percy Montgomery was the most famous poach resulting from this.Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 5:05 pmI assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
I apologise for the use of the term ‘project’ players. This was actually why I used the quotes - because I know neither Duhan nor Tom Jordan was brought to Scotland with the intention of qualifying them for Scotland. WP Nel, yes. Schoeman, yes. Not sure there have been any others. Strauss? Visser? Kebble? There are plenty of examples of players who were brought to Scotland with the intention of making them Scotland players, but the vast majority qualified via the diaspora and were SQ from birth.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Except there is no Scottish nationality - yet - so they can’t apply such a rule to us. If a passport could be obtained with one parent born in Scotland, we’d have no issues with such a quota (see above). If one grandparent would do (as is the case for Irish nationality) then it would cover all but three current players.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
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Happens a lot - I’d say an overwhelming majority of British Indians in SE England sound indistinguishable from the rest of us. The Pakistani community keeps to itself more and they tend to a greater or lesser extent have a Pakistani take on an English accent
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:51 pmExcept there is no Scottish nationality - yet - so they can’t apply such a rule to us. If a passport could be obtained with one parent born in Scotland, we’d have no issues with such a quota (see above). If one grandparent would do (as is the case for Irish nationality) then it would cover all but three current players.
It used to be the case that Scots could count themselves as French nationals due to the political affiliations at the time.
What's on Biffer?OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:08 pmYou can thank the qouta system for getting him. It's on Biffer.
Habana said a couple of years ago that he didn't consider Duhan as "one that got away" so, meh.
Big Duhan is a very emotional guy who wears his heart on his sleeve. There is an interview from a while ago where he talks about what Scotland rescuing his career means to him. There is still a lot of this idiotic stuff going around about "poaches" but it takes a lot of guts for someone to cross borders to places unknown and try to make a living for themselves and their family.
Obviously I don't know what was said, but in the last Lions tour Faf de Klerk had a go at sledging Duhan, I'm guessing it was to do with not playing for the country of his birth, and the very next play Duhan made contact with Pieter Steph du Toit and du Toit got carried off injured, you could see that van der Merwe was obviously very pissed off with whatever de Klerk said.
Don’t bother asking, he'll only reply.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:12 pmWhat's on Biffer?OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:08 pmYou can thank the qouta system for getting him. It's on Biffer.
Habana said a couple of years ago that he didn't consider Duhan as "one that got away" so, meh.
Big Duhan is a very emotional guy who wears his heart on his sleeve. There is an interview from a while ago where he talks about what Scotland rescuing his career means to him. There is still a lot of this idiotic stuff going around about "poaches" but it takes a lot of guts for someone to cross borders to places unknown and try to make a living for themselves and their family.
Obviously I don't know what was said, but in the last Lions tour Faf de Klerk had a go at sledging Duhan, I'm guessing it was to do with not playing for the country of his birth, and the very next play Duhan made contact with Pieter Steph du Toit and du Toit got carried off injured, you could see that van der Merwe was obviously very pissed off with whatever de Klerk said.
Dumbest thing is he’ll probably reply to this despite the fact I can’t see it cos he’s blocked
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Yup, horrible poachYr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:47 pmI just read the Wikipedia article. Fascinating! I see that Percy Montgomery was the most famous poach resulting from this.Slick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 5:05 pmI assume you are not aware of the national integrity of Walvis Bay?Yr Alban wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 pm Oh good, this again.
I’ve commented on it so many times that I can more or less do it in my sleep, but briefly:
1. All countries do this (except Argentina). Even SA have helped themselves to the odd player from Zimbabwe or Namibia in the past.
2. Scotland have had very few ‘project’ players. A handful at most, only 2 of whom are first picks (Duhan and Schoeman). Jordan may become a third in time.
3. Of the players in our squad who weren’t born in Scotland, half have at least one parent who was. Which ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
4. Rugby in Scotland is a middle-class occupation (except for the Borders, which has a tiny population). Middle-class families are professionally mobile and move to where the work is, which in the UK almost always means to London, or at least closer to it. This leads to many kids from rugby families being born to Scottish parents in England. At best, we select them and we’re criticised for doing it. At worst, we lose them to England (Fraser Dingwall and Fin Smith the best recent examples).
I apologise for the use of the term ‘project’ players. This was actually why I used the quotes - because I know neither Duhan nor Tom Jordan was brought to Scotland with the intention of qualifying them for Scotland. WP Nel, yes. Schoeman, yes. Not sure there have been any others. Strauss? Visser? Kebble? There are plenty of examples of players who were brought to Scotland with the intention of making them Scotland players, but the vast majority qualified via the diaspora and were SQ from birth.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
- Uncle fester
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Duhan isn't a poach either, his career was saved/made in Edinburgh.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:36 pmWe're not calling them "projects". We're calling them "poaches".