The Scottish Politics Thread

[tc27]

Could be a variety of reasons - most likely over/under reporting, testing levels or the way the virus behaves at a particular R rate in different concentrations of populations.

https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/1288804725933125632


Whats evident is that the Scottish government and its auxiliaries has being massaging the figures to try and leverage the difference to alter perceptions in favour of the SNP and independence...pretty shameful stuff IMO.

[Northern Lights]

Pretty damning stuff for both Westminister and Holyrood but only Boris getting heat over it, Sturgeon riding high in the polls over her handling of the pandemic.

Embra and weegieland 9th & 10th worst cities in Europe for death rate.

Shambolic

Increase in death rate, not death rate. Try and be accurate, there's enough nonsense about this topic without saying something different from what is literally written on the graphic you posted.

UK broadly followed a fournations policy at the start of the pandemic. It failed. Scotland, NI and Wales diverged from a UK-wide approach and have seen better improvements than England. That's my overall take. So every body should get a huge dollop of shit for the initial approach, and then the three devolved administrations should get some credit for better handling of the later stages.

And there we have it. Excusing away piss poor performance by the Scottish Government again.

Never change lads, never change, mediocrity is the best we can aspire to and the SG can do no wrong, it's all Westminsters fault.

[Biffer]

Pretty damning stuff for both Westminister and Holyrood but only Boris getting heat over it, Sturgeon riding high in the polls over her handling of the pandemic.

Embra and weegieland 9th & 10th worst cities in Europe for death rate.

Shambolic

Increase in death rate, not death rate. Try and be accurate, there's enough nonsense about this topic without saying something different from what is literally written on the graphic you posted.

UK broadly followed a fournations policy at the start of the pandemic. It failed. Scotland, NI and Wales diverged from a UK-wide approach and have seen better improvements than England. That's my overall take. So every body should get a huge dollop of shit for the initial approach, and then the three devolved administrations should get some credit for better handling of the later stages.

And there we have it. Excusing away piss poor performance by the Scottish Government again.

Never change lads, never change, mediocrity is the best we can aspire to and the SG can do no wrong, it's all Westminsters fault.

So a huge dollop of shit is somehow a complementary thing to say, aye?

You just read what you want, carry on.

[Northern Lights]

Aye, we're doing fucking fantastic.

[Biffer]

Aye, we're doing fucking fantastic.

Where did I say that?

[tc27]

Carlaw gone...pretty abruptly.

[Biffer]

Carlaw gone...pretty abruptly.

That's a weird one. Sunday papers?

[tc27]

I suspect the SC internal polling is pretty bad at the moment - perhaps indicating the SNP will do even better than 2011 and Carlaw is personally failing to cut through...he probably feels obliged to give some else a chance to make an impression.

[Caley_Red]

I suspect the SC internal polling is pretty bad at the moment - perhaps indicating the SNP will do even better than 2011 and Carlaw is personally failing to cut through...he probably feels obliged to give some else a chance to make an impression.

Fair play for having some introspection and recognising your own limitations, few politicians seem to do that.

Reading that Douglas Ross is planning on running, all I know about him are his strong stances against the CFP and, by extension, the EU. Probably not a bad choice given that c40% of Scots voted for Brexit (including a third of SNP voters) and have the sum total of zero representation in any party North of the Border.

[Slick]

2. Allegedly due to the need to protect the ‘UK internal market’ (an entirely mythical construct, as there have never been any barriers to free trade throughout the UK) a new quango is to be set up that will scrutinise new Holyrood legislation and will have the power to veto it if it thinks it will be detrimental to this imaginary market.

3. Again, due to this imaginary market, Westminster will now have the power to impose regulatory standards on the devolved governments, whether they agree to them or not. So if Westminster agrees to accept lower standards to make a trade deal with the US, for example, Holyrood will have no power to prevent the goods from going on sale in Scotland.

I am late to this but amazed by the cognitive dissonance on display here.

Their is self evidently a UK internal market precisely because there are no barriers to trade - all the way from the standardisation of weights and measures (explicitly mentioned in the act of Union) to complex regulations that let the massively important FS industry in Scotland flog products to customers in Kent (not possible even within the EU single market).

True - over the years aspects of regulating this market have being passed to the EU commission or that same body has created new controls in order to try and create a single market across the EU/EEA - that process is now being reversed..

I am really amazed that people can say with a straight face the UK does not have an internal market or their is now a coherent case for undermining it in order to appease separatist sentiment.

Additionally Scotland trades more with the USA than it does with the entire EU27 so in theory any trade liberalisation with the US is going to be more beneficial to its economy (not that any deal involving agriculture will ever happen as its too contentious an issue for a conservative government to face).

You kind of come to expect that the true believers will choose to overlook anything but there are plenty of intelligent, rational independence supporters who must do some real internal wrangling to nod their heads in agreement with some of the nonsense.

We are leaving our biggest trading partner, this has fundementally changed things and the only way to get over it is to leave our biggest trading partner.

I remain against Brexit but it also raises an eyebrow that 45% of folk who voted for independence are a minority that must be heard and have their demands met. The 38% that voted for Brexit? never mentioned, don't exist.

[Biffer]

2. Allegedly due to the need to protect the ‘UK internal market’ (an entirely mythical construct, as there have never been any barriers to free trade throughout the UK) a new quango is to be set up that will scrutinise new Holyrood legislation and will have the power to veto it if it thinks it will be detrimental to this imaginary market.

3. Again, due to this imaginary market, Westminster will now have the power to impose regulatory standards on the devolved governments, whether they agree to them or not. So if Westminster agrees to accept lower standards to make a trade deal with the US, for example, Holyrood will have no power to prevent the goods from going on sale in Scotland.

I am late to this but amazed by the cognitive dissonance on display here.

Their is self evidently a UK internal market precisely because there are no barriers to trade - all the way from the standardisation of weights and measures (explicitly mentioned in the act of Union) to complex regulations that let the massively important FS industry in Scotland flog products to customers in Kent (not possible even within the EU single market).

True - over the years aspects of regulating this market have being passed to the EU commission or that same body has created new controls in order to try and create a single market across the EU/EEA - that process is now being reversed..

I am really amazed that people can say with a straight face the UK does not have an internal market or their is now a coherent case for undermining it in order to appease separatist sentiment.

Additionally Scotland trades more with the USA than it does with the entire EU27 so in theory any trade liberalisation with the US is going to be more beneficial to its economy (not that any deal involving agriculture will ever happen as its too contentious an issue for a conservative government to face).

You kind of come to expect that the true believers will choose to overlook anything but there are plenty of intelligent, rational independence supporters who must do some real internal wrangling to nod their heads in agreement with some of the nonsense.

We are leaving our biggest trading partner, this has fundementally changed things and the only way to get over it is to leave our biggest trading partner.

I remain against Brexit but it also raises an eyebrow that 45% of folk who voted for independence are a minority that must be heard and have their demands met. The 38% that voted for Brexit? never mentioned, don't exist.

My personal view is, of course there’s an internal market, but that market is part of a state that is on a long, slow decline, and that’s substantially due to the UK not having any idea of its place in the world and the future vision of what its place will be. The EU membership was a way to look forward to a UK taking a place as part of a group of developed, powerful countries who pooled their efforts to counterbalance the superpowers of China and the USA. But the UK has chosen to go a different route that’s mostly based on a misplaced idea that we can be an equal partner on our own, which is ludicrous (5th largest economy in 2010, now 6th or more likely 7th, likely to be a few places lower than that in the next 10-15 years). As regional groupings like Mercosur start to align more, we will be left out in the cold. Whenever you ask about this, too many people talk about the past instead of the future (and with no link from the past to the future), as if the rest of the world will trade with us out of some sense of gratitude for coming over and shooting half of them a couple of hundred years ago. There was a brief flowering of a modern British view of itself which was probably best exemplified by the London 2012 opening ceremony, but it didn’t take with boomers.

As a result of Brexit, full EU membership for Scotland might not be the correct path, but EEA / EFTA membership allows countries to sign their own trade agreements with other nations, so EFTA with a trade deal with RUK, which might end up as being an additional route into Europe for RUK goods and services so mutually beneficial, would work.

The UK is done, and will before long be an irrelevance internationally, angrily shouting from outside when other people are at the big table, and reassuring our selves by getting an occasional scrap thrown from the USA.

[Slick]

Carlaw gone...pretty abruptly.

That's a weird one. Sunday papers?

I don't think so. There is a pretty big push coming from UKG into Scotland I reckon. Boris seems serious about his "equalising" agenda and I think they have realised they have been caught on the hop and need to be more visable. How they do this will be interesting as Ministerial visits and throwing money at projects are easily countered by SG.

Given the state of Scottish Enterpise and SDI I think they should start suporting Scottish business and promoting the vast network of international trade departments that Scottish business has access to but doesn't use as a first step

[Biffer]

Carlaw gone...pretty abruptly.

That's a weird one. Sunday papers?

I don't think so. There is a pretty big push coming from UKG into Scotland I reckon. Boris seems serious about his "equalising" agenda and I think they have realised they have been caught on the hop and need to be more visable. How they do this will be interesting as Ministerial visits and throwing money at projects are easily countered by SG.

Given the state of Scottish Enterpise and SDI I think they should start suporting Scottish business and promoting the vast network of international trade departments that Scottish business has access to but doesn't use as a first step

Problem is that’s a devolved responsibility. There are reserved trade areas, which they could do something about, but they’d then have to do them for the rest of the UK as well. Fundamentally the Tories don’t believe in regional development agencies, so they won’t do anything through SE. It’s incredibly difficult to do anything explicitly Scottish under the devolution settlement. If they were anywhere near smart they’d do critical infrastructure spending as its centralised and doesn’t result in additional money to the Scottish Government. But they’d be easily attacked as political moves given that none of the queensferry crossing, the M8 completion, the borders railway, the airdrie-Bathgate line or the A9 widening were considered to be critical UK infrastructure.

[Slick]

That's a weird one. Sunday papers?

I don't think so. There is a pretty big push coming from UKG into Scotland I reckon. Boris seems serious about his "equalising" agenda and I think they have realised they have been caught on the hop and need to be more visable. How they do this will be interesting as Ministerial visits and throwing money at projects are easily countered by SG.

Given the state of Scottish Enterpise and SDI I think they should start suporting Scottish business and promoting the vast network of international trade departments that Scottish business has access to but doesn't use as a first step

Problem is that’s a devolved responsibility. There are reserved trade areas, which they could do something about, but they’d then have to do them for the rest of the UK as well. Fundamentally the Tories don’t believe in regional development agencies, so they won’t do anything through SE. It’s incredibly difficult to do anything explicitly Scottish under the devolution settlement. If they were anywhere near smart they’d do critical infrastructure spending as its centralised and doesn’t result in additional money to the Scottish Government. But they’d be easily attacked as political moves given that none of the queensferry crossing, the M8 completion, the borders railway, the airdrie-Bathgate line or the A9 widening were considered to be critical UK infrastructure.

It is NOT a devolved responsibility. SG use money from the block grant to fund SDI and there are some loosely agreed protocols that change frequently. They even have their own word for it, "concurrent". In practice it doesn't work and Scottish companies get a far, far inferior service and many don't realise they have access to DIT, FCO etc.

[Biffer]

I don't think so. There is a pretty big push coming from UKG into Scotland I reckon. Boris seems serious about his "equalising" agenda and I think they have realised they have been caught on the hop and need to be more visable. How they do this will be interesting as Ministerial visits and throwing money at projects are easily countered by SG.

Given the state of Scottish Enterpise and SDI I think they should start suporting Scottish business and promoting the vast network of international trade departments that Scottish business has access to but doesn't use as a first step

Problem is that’s a devolved responsibility. There are reserved trade areas, which they could do something about, but they’d then have to do them for the rest of the UK as well. Fundamentally the Tories don’t believe in regional development agencies, so they won’t do anything through SE. It’s incredibly difficult to do anything explicitly Scottish under the devolution settlement. If they were anywhere near smart they’d do critical infrastructure spending as its centralised and doesn’t result in additional money to the Scottish Government. But they’d be easily attacked as political moves given that none of the queensferry crossing, the M8 completion, the borders railway, the airdrie-Bathgate line or the A9 widening were considered to be critical UK infrastructure.

It is NOT a devolved responsibility. SG use money from the block grant to fund SDI and there are some loosely agreed protocols that change frequently. They even have their own word for it, "concurrent". In practice it doesn't work and Scottish companies get a far, far inferior service and many don't realise they have access to DIT, FCO etc.

Sorry, wasn’t clear. I’m saying regional development agency work is devolved, international trade isn’t. Local economic development is most definitely a devolved matter. To be clear I find determining what’s devolved and what’s not in trade and industry pretty fucking complex. I don’t think it’s that clear in a lot of areas.

[Slick]

Problem is that’s a devolved responsibility. There are reserved trade areas, which they could do something about, but they’d then have to do them for the rest of the UK as well. Fundamentally the Tories don’t believe in regional development agencies, so they won’t do anything through SE. It’s incredibly difficult to do anything explicitly Scottish under the devolution settlement. If they were anywhere near smart they’d do critical infrastructure spending as its centralised and doesn’t result in additional money to the Scottish Government. But they’d be easily attacked as political moves given that none of the queensferry crossing, the M8 completion, the borders railway, the airdrie-Bathgate line or the A9 widening were considered to be critical UK infrastructure.

It is NOT a devolved responsibility. SG use money from the block grant to fund SDI and there are some loosely agreed protocols that change frequently. They even have their own word for it, "concurrent". In practice it doesn't work and Scottish companies get a far, far inferior service and many don't realise they have access to DIT, FCO etc.

Sorry, wasn’t clear. I’m saying regional development agency work is devolved, international trade isn’t. Local economic development is most definitely a devolved matter. To be clear I find determining what’s devolved and what’s not in trade and industry pretty fucking complex. I don’t think it’s that clear in a lot of areas.

Ahh, fair enough. And yes, I've spent the best part of a year working on this in Holyrood and Westminster and it's still not clear.... Absolutely no one has a clear idea on how it works!

[tc27]

SNP changes rules to stop Cherry running for Holyrood presumably as the acceptable face of the Salmond faction. (She would now have to resign from her MP role).

[Biffer]

It is NOT a devolved responsibility. SG use money from the block grant to fund SDI and there are some loosely agreed protocols that change frequently. They even have their own word for it, "concurrent". In practice it doesn't work and Scottish companies get a far, far inferior service and many don't realise they have access to DIT, FCO etc.

Sorry, wasn’t clear. I’m saying regional development agency work is devolved, international trade isn’t. Local economic development is most definitely a devolved matter. To be clear I find determining what’s devolved and what’s not in trade and industry pretty fucking complex. I don’t think it’s that clear in a lot of areas.

Ahh, fair enough. And yes, I've spent the best part of a year working on this in Holyrood and Westminster and it's still not clear.... Absolutely no one has a clear idea on how it works!

No worries.

My favourite thing about the devolution legislation is that the original drafting and passage of the 1998 act forgot to put Antarctica in as a reserved matter, so technically from 1998 Holyrood was responsible for legislation relating to Antarctic activities. Sensibly, they deferred it back to Westminster, and it was added in the Scotland Act 2012, but it could have been an entertains constitutional clash if they’d tried to exercise the powers!

[Caley_Red]

SNP changes rules to stop Cherry running for Holyrood presumably as the acceptable face of the Salmond faction. (She would now have to resign from her MP role).

Shame, obviously not a fan of the SNP but any alternative faction which would move them away from their strong statist and authoritarian tendencies would be welcome.
Strange old world, didn't really mind Salmond: thought he was competent and had a very clear and evidenced view of where he wanted to take the country and that his economic policies were fairy decent. What's followed 2014 has been the wholesale transfer of the SNP into a party with the economic positions of Miliband-Corbyn and cultural/ societal policies that most closely resemble the Greens.

[Slick]

It could well be that I've missed something but not sure that all the critisism of SG re the exam results is entirely fair.

The results seem to be broadly in line with other years but the teacher predictions would have made them way higher. If it's true that schools from poorer areas were singled out to drop grades then that is obviously a big issue, but I haven't seen much to back it up bar the odd case where students/parents are not happy.

[tc27]

Its a funny problem (and one that will be repeated across the UK no doubt) because marking grades from lower achieving schools is probably going to produce the most legitimate result.

On the other hand its also obviously and grossly unfair to so many individual people that I doubt its going to stand.

My impression is that there is plenty to criticise the SNP about regarding education but this is a catch 22 situation.

[Slick]

Its a funny problem (and one that will be repeated across the UK no doubt) because marking grades from lower achieving schools is probably going to produce the most legitimate result.

On the other hand its also obviously and grossly unfair to so many individual people that I doubt its going to stand.

My impression is that there is plenty to criticise the SNP about regarding education but this is a catch 22 situation.

Yup, that's where I am.

[Biffer]

Scottish government reintroducing restrictions in Aberdeen. More than 50 positive tests associated with the cluster. 20 licensed premises linked to it.

No Non essential travel to / from Aberdeen
Pubs and restaurants to close, both indoor and outdoor
No socialising in other people’s houses.

64 new cases today, 36 of them in Grampian. Also 15 further cases in Greater Glasgow.

[Longshanks]

Scottish government reintroducing restrictions in Aberdeen. More than 50 positive tests associated with the cluster. 20 licensed premises linked to it.

No Non essential travel to / from Aberdeen
Pubs and restaurants to close, both indoor and outdoor
No socialising in other people’s houses.

64 new cases today, 36 of them in Grampian. Also 15 further cases in Greater Glasgow.

I wonder if Boris should "warn" English people not to travel to North East Scotland?

[Biffer]

Scottish government reintroducing restrictions in Aberdeen. More than 50 positive tests associated with the cluster. 20 licensed premises linked to it.

No Non essential travel to / from Aberdeen
Pubs and restaurants to close, both indoor and outdoor
No socialising in other people’s houses.

64 new cases today, 36 of them in Grampian. Also 15 further cases in Greater Glasgow.

I wonder if Boris should "warn" English people not to travel to North East Scotland?

Eh, Nicola Sturgeon has just said no one should travel to Aberdeen. So she’s said it.

[Longshanks]

Scottish government reintroducing restrictions in Aberdeen. More than 50 positive tests associated with the cluster. 20 licensed premises linked to it.

No Non essential travel to / from Aberdeen
Pubs and restaurants to close, both indoor and outdoor
No socialising in other people’s houses.

64 new cases today, 36 of them in Grampian. Also 15 further cases in Greater Glasgow.

I wonder if Boris should "warn" English people not to travel to North East Scotland?

Eh, Nicola Sturgeon has just said no one should travel to Aberdeen. So she’s said it.

Revenge is sweet though

[dpedin]

Aberdeen outbreak a worry and it will be interesting to see if the Track and Protect system in Grampian kicks in properly and manages to identify and isolate the cases. Hopefully local monitoring has caught this early and will nip it in the bud.

However this scenario was part of the SG modelling previously carried out, a small wave of outbreaks were anticipated in August/September following easing of lock down in June/July and population becomes less careful in pubs, meetings, etc. Hopefully the local PH teams will manage to control and eliminate these outbreaks with worst case being local shut downs a la Aberdeen..

Next is the same sort of wave/scenarios arising from the schools going back and these will probably kick in in mid September. Again the local PH teams will hopefully be able to respond and local shut downs may be required.

Bigger challenge will be in late Autumn when the normal flu/cold season kicks in and cold weather, which the virus thrives in, means folk move indoors. Modelling suggests thats when the biggest threat of a sizeable wave could occur. Best approach is to try and go into Autumn/WInter with as few cases as possible, hence the SG fairly strict lock down in Aberdeen now.

However we need to remember context for Aberdeen outbreak - total UK cases today according to BBC is 670 new cases.

[Biffer]

I wonder if Boris should "warn" English people not to travel to North East Scotland?

Eh, Nicola Sturgeon has just said no one should travel to Aberdeen. So she’s said it.

Revenge is sweet though

Really not getting your point here

[Longshanks]

Just a reference to Nicola telling Jocks not to visit plague infested Northern England

[tc27]

Well that's shit about Aberdeen especially for businesses that will need to close again.

I guess today the press conference will be justified.

[Dogbert]

I wonder if Boris should "warn" English people not to travel to North East Scotland?

Eh, Nicola Sturgeon has just said no one should travel to Aberdeen. So she’s said it.

Revenge is sweet though

Boris should certainly be telling English people not to visit Aberdeen - nothing to do with revenge - god knows what sort of mindset sees this as 'revenge' - maybe just a poor choice of words

Stupid fecking Aberdonians though - if this causes schools in Aberdeen from opening next week I will be mad as hell.

[Slick]

Just a reference to Nicola telling Jocks not to visit plague infested Northern England

And now telling them not to visit Aberdeen. In Scotland.

Enjoy your revenge.

[Longshanks]

Just a reference to Nicola telling Jocks not to visit plague infested Northern England

And now telling them not to visit Aberdeen. In Scotland.

Enjoy your revenge.

So without Nicola's intervention you would all be heading to the Arndale?
It was political point scoring and nothing else.
Of course she should inform everyone of the situation in Scotland, that's her flipping job.

[Dogbert]

Just a reference to Nicola telling Jocks not to visit plague infested Northern England

And now telling them not to visit Aberdeen. In Scotland.

Enjoy your revenge.

So without Nicola's intervention you would all be heading to the Arndale?
It was political point scoring and nothing else.
Of course she should inform everyone of the situation in Scotland, that's her flipping job.

If you eally believe that you are beyond help , mind you there are plenty up in Scotland who beleive that she shouldn't be having press conferences to inform everyobne in Scotland - See TC's reference

[Longshanks]

And now telling them not to visit Aberdeen. In Scotland.

Enjoy your revenge.

So without Nicola's intervention you would all be heading to the Arndale?
It was political point scoring and nothing else.
Of course she should inform everyone of the situation in Scotland, that's her flipping job.

If you eally believe that you are beyond help , mind you there are plenty up in Scotland who beleive that she shouldn't be having press conferences to inform everyobne in Scotland - See TC's reference

It's the same with her claim that Scotland has an infection rate 5 times lower than England
Why did she lie? To score points.
Nothing against you guys though. I love Scotland and the sweats. Just not keen on politicians of her ilk whatever their party

[tc27]

There have being quite a few days recently where the daily press conference has being redundant and amounted to a SNP PPB televised for free. The format of no follow up questions allowed also irked me.


But today for example there was clearly a need for one and I do not think anyone could object - not for nothing surely just having one when there's actual significant developments makes it more impactful and likely to change behaviour.

[Biffer]

Just a reference to Nicola telling Jocks not to visit plague infested Northern England

She was right. And Johnson would be right to say the same about Aberdeen. As he did about Leicester and Manchester. Good to see you're acknowledging that Johnson should be following her lead.

[Longshanks]

Just a reference to Nicola telling Jocks not to visit plague infested Northern England

She was right. And Johnson would be right to say the same about Aberdeen. As he did about Leicester and Manchester. Good to see you're acknowledging that Johnson should be following her lead.

Or be as pathetic

[Dogbert]

She wa absolutrly wrong to use the 5 times less figure - based on incomplete data suplied to her by Scotland's Chief Statistician - and she did apologize for using the figure

However these is no doubt that at the time the prevalence in Scotland was significantly lower than in England.

You have to remember that this was during a period when she was being heavily critisiced for not opening up Air Bridges to Spain , when England had opened up , and the point she was making was that Scotland was not following the same pathway as England , as the two countries were at different levels of prevalence , and the approach of the Scottish Government for some months now was to eliminate the virus as far as possible to that schools could reopen ( they open in August , rather than September in England) ,and again to reduce the virus as much as possible so that a 2nd spike in Autumn / Winter , can be better controlled

I'm not sure what Englands policy is here , to eleminate the virus , allow the virus to circulate at low levels , to achiebe Herd immunity , or what

Its not about points scoring

[Dogbert]

That's an awful lot of locations for Track & Trace to work on

Not surprised that pissed up Aberdonians can't social distanvce though - bloody golfers as well

The bars linked to the outbreak are as follows: Bieldside Inn, Bobbin, Brewdog, Buckie Farm Carvery, Café Andaluz, Café Dag, Café Drummond, The Cock & Bull, College Bar, The Dutch Mill, Dyce Carvery, East End Social Club, Ferryhill House Hotel, Hawthorn/Adam Lounge, The Howff, The Justice Mill, The Marine Hotel, McGinty's, McNasty's, Malmaison, Moonfish Café, No.10 Bar, O'Donoghues, Old Bank Bar, Prohibition, Soul, Spiders Web and The Draft Project.

There were also four leisure settings named - Aboyne Golf Club, Deeside Golf Club, Hazelhead Golf Club and Banks O'Dee Football Club.