Not a surprising result against the Lions. Even 18-3 up I never felt comfortable. Some of the penalties against us in the 2nd half seemed harsh, but it's our fault for not responding (like pulling James Venter off who gave away most of them).
Here's my take on where we are and what should be done.
1. Admit that this season is over and we're in recover and building mode for next year. There is no point pushing for a top 8 finish, when we clearly aren't good enough to compete in the Champions Cup anyway.
2. Whilst Plumtree and Powell should shoulder a lot of the blame, I'd be inclined to stick with them both for a couple more seasons. Plumtree inherited this squad, and Powell arrived a year later than he should have. Some bad signings were done, but let's knuckle down with the squad we have for now.
3. Whilst Am is one of my all-time favourite players, he's not back to his best form and he was anonymous as a captain against the Lions. I'd give it to a forward, perhaps Bongi or someone else in the engine room who can fire them up.
4. Our attack is the worst it has ever been. We have to get rid of Bosch once and for all. Give the 10 jersey to Boeta and Cronje and give some gametime aswell to some of the youngers.
5. I don't know what is going on with Rohan jvR, but he obviously pissed someone off. We need a bruiser at 12 and that's what we signed him for. Sort that shit out and get him getting us across the gainline.
6. Our young locks are probably the best prospects in our team. But our backrow is weak and work-shy. Vincent Tshituka needs to perform once he's back from injury and needs to own that 7 jersey. Although I see his boet is coming over which is a good thing.
7. I think we need to sort out who is turning up to collect a paycheck and who is actually going to fight and show some pride for the $harks jersey. Perhaps a couple of cancelled contracts is what might shake them up a bit. Like what was the point in signing Hoohaa when he's only played 15 minutes? I know he was short term cover, but seriously.
$hark$ 2023 and beyond
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OomStruisbaai
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Some very good points. I'll give you some positves
1. Eben Etzebeth should be captain, leading from the front. He is always a winner.
2. You are pretty much in the Challenge Cup and can win it from here.
3. Your fixtures from here is pretty good.
1. Eben Etzebeth should be captain, leading from the front. He is always a winner.
2. You are pretty much in the Challenge Cup and can win it from here.
3. Your fixtures from here is pretty good.
Ja true, it's not all doom and gloom. But we really should have beaten the Lions on Saturday.OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:03 am Some very good points. I'll give you some positves
1. Eben Etzebeth should be captain, leading from the front. He is always a winner.
2. You are pretty much in the Challenge Cup and can win it from here.
3. Your fixtures from here is pretty good.
I'm not sure about Eben. I think we need to leave him to concentrate on what he's doing, as he's currently our best player.
We sure as hell won't win the Challenge Cup. Even if we sneak into the knock-out stages, there is too much pedigree in the final rounds.
Yes home fixtures are good. Despite our losses, the crowd numbers are good which we need to maintain with some good wins.
Tough times at the Sharks. I kind of want South African teams to succeed, as it might lure some of that sweet private equity cash to the other teams if the Sharks can make a success of the model, but I'll be lying if I said I'm not experiencing some schadenfreude. I think it's pretty common when big teams get big cash injections and go on massive buying sprees and raid other teams.
Anyway, back to the Shark's struggles.
Maybe a culture problem within the organisation, similar to what we had within the WP structures that almost killed us. Jake White had a terrible time when he briefly coached there before he was ousted...and that was a decade ago. He was quite critical of the players and clubs in the area at the time. If I recall his main criticisms were that clubs and players wielded a lot of power and that the player's work ethic was poor e.g. arriving late for training, complaining about early training sessions etc.
The Sharks fans will know way more about the politics and court politics that were at play, but are has all of that been sorted now? You've been through multiple coaches now, and have a stacked roster of star players (more than the Lions and Cheetahs and possibly the Stormers), so maybe the issue is higher up in the organisation than the coaches and players?
Anyway, back to the Shark's struggles.
Some buyer's remorse for sure, but I can't help but think the issue is deeper.assfly wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:32 am 2. Whilst Plumtree and Powell should shoulder a lot of the blame, I'd be inclined to stick with them both for a couple more seasons. Plumtree inherited this squad, and Powell arrived a year later than he should have. Some bad signings were done, but let's knuckle down with the squad we have for now.
Maybe a culture problem within the organisation, similar to what we had within the WP structures that almost killed us. Jake White had a terrible time when he briefly coached there before he was ousted...and that was a decade ago. He was quite critical of the players and clubs in the area at the time. If I recall his main criticisms were that clubs and players wielded a lot of power and that the player's work ethic was poor e.g. arriving late for training, complaining about early training sessions etc.
The Sharks fans will know way more about the politics and court politics that were at play, but are has all of that been sorted now? You've been through multiple coaches now, and have a stacked roster of star players (more than the Lions and Cheetahs and possibly the Stormers), so maybe the issue is higher up in the organisation than the coaches and players?
Last edited by Blake on Wed Jan 10, 2024 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
If only there was a Sharks supporter on here with his ear to the ground who could give us the skinny on the problems with players, clubs and work ethic in Durban.Blake wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:39 pm Maybe a culture problem within the organisation, similar to what we had within the WP structures that almost killed us. Jake White had a terrible time when he briefly coached there before he was ousted...and that was a decade ago. He was quite critical of the players and clubs in the area at the time. If I recall his main criticisms were that clubs and players wielded a lot of power and that the player's work ethic was poor e.g. arriving late for training, complaining about early training sessions etc.
The Sharks fans will know way more about the politics and court politics that were at play, but are has all of that been sorted now? You've been through multiple coaches now, and have a stacked roster of star players (more than the Lions and Cheetahs and possibly the Stormers), so maybe the issue is higher up in the organisation than the coaches and players?
Thanks Blake. I get the schadenfreude. It's particularly hard as a fan to have to put up with these results, without having to endure the pleasure of our downfall from fellow Saffas. I'm not quite sure that any other union would do differently if they came into big money; you make some noise, making some marquee signings and push for trophies. It worked to an extent; we made some good signings and some bad ones (who doesn't?) and our first couple of URC seasons weren't bad. But this is a whole new low.Blake wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:39 pm Tought times at the Sharks. I kind of want South African teams to succeed, as it might lure some of that sweet private equity cash to the other teams if the Sharks can make a success of the model, but I'll be lying if I said I'm not experiencing some schadenfreude. I think it's pretty common when big teams get big cash injections and go on massive buying sprees and raid other teams.
Anyway, back to the Shark's struggles.
Some buyer's remorse for sure, but I can't help but think the issue is deeper.assfly wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:32 am 2. Whilst Plumtree and Powell should shoulder a lot of the blame, I'd be inclined to stick with them both for a couple more seasons. Plumtree inherited this squad, and Powell arrived a year later than he should have. Some bad signings were done, but let's knuckle down with the squad we have for now.
Maybe a culture problem within the organisation, similar to what we had within the WP structures that almost killed us. Jake White had a terrible time when he briefly coached there before he was ousted...and that was a decade ago. He was quite critical of the players and clubs in the area at the time. If I recall his main criticisms were that clubs and players wielded a lot of power and that the player's work ethic was poor e.g. arriving late for training, complaining about early training sessions etc.
The Sharks fans will know way more about the politics and court politics that were at play, but are has all of that been sorted now? You've been through multiple coaches now, and have a stacked roster of star players (more than the Lions and Cheetahs and possibly the Stormers), so maybe the issue is higher up in the organisation than the coaches and players?
I've always been a fan of Plumtree; I was sad to see him go and we never quite seemed to perform under du Preez and Everitt. Yes you're probably right about culture, but who knows what is going on behind closed doors.
I don't see many "star players" at the moment. Eben is the only guy who is really performing of our key signings. Thankfully we do have some good young players coming through, but our senior guys seem to be letting us down.
Ja, we went through a similar thing in the late 2000s when we had some cash and bought Habana from the Bulls, Jaque Fourie from the Lions, Vermeulen from the Cheetahs while we already had Burger, De Villiers etc. We were hated from all corners and suffered the same from our compatriots when we choked.assfly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 5:58 am Thanks Blake. I get the schadenfreude. It's particularly hard as a fan to have to put up with these results, without having to endure the pleasure of our downfall from fellow Saffas. I'm not quite sure that any other union would do differently if they came into big money; you make some noise, making some marquee signings and push for trophies. It worked to an extent; we made some good signings and some bad ones (who doesn't?) and our first couple of URC seasons weren't bad. But this is a whole new low.
I've always been a fan of Plumtree; I was sad to see him go and we never quite seemed to perform under du Preez and Everitt. Yes you're probably right about culture, but who knows what is going on behind closed doors.
I don't see many "star players" at the moment. Eben is the only guy who is really performing of our key signings. Thankfully we do have some good young players coming through, but our senior guys seem to be letting us down.
We were just lucky that our team gelled fairly well and didn't struggle to the extent the Sharks are now and despite stumbling in multiple super rugby knock-out games, we at least got 2 Currie Cups wins and one silver medal in that era.
I'm sure you guys will turn a corner eventually. I think your biggest loss was Kolisi. Bongi, Eben, Am and Mapimpi are all better players when Kolisi is on the field, and that in turn inspires and improves the junior players around those players. Hopefully some of the other Boks can lift their play without Siya soon, because Eben can't carry the tema on his own indefinitely.
But I also think there might be a couple of toxic influences in the team and upper management that need to be extricated. I don't know who they are and what all the backroom drama is, but I'm sure they are there and will they continue to poison the environment.
It just doesn't look like a healty environment and team culture from the outside.
The $harks need
A decent hooker, besides Bongi
A bruiser at 7, use that fat youngster who came back from France
A flyhalf, what happened to Chiat?
A captain, Am looks like he is only interested in his bubblegum.
I don't understand the love for Plumtree, but keep him for a season.
A decent hooker, besides Bongi
A bruiser at 7, use that fat youngster who came back from France
A flyhalf, what happened to Chiat?
A captain, Am looks like he is only interested in his bubblegum.
I don't understand the love for Plumtree, but keep him for a season.
Flyhalf is a real problem. The only time Bosch plays well is behind a strong pack, where his kicking can be quite good. But he offers little else on attack and doesn't play well under pressure.
But when our pack gets bullied, Bosch becomes a massive liability.
But when our pack gets bullied, Bosch becomes a massive liability.
During the 2020 Super Season ( the one cut short by covid) Bosch was proper, except for not tackling.assfly wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 8:02 am Flyhalf is a real problem. The only time Bosch plays well is behind a strong pack, where his kicking can be quite good. But he offers little else on attack and doesn't play well under pressure.
But when our pack gets bullied, Bosch becomes a massive liability.
When the AB pack got bullied, Carter looked shite. Rugby is a game won up-front. Sharks need to strengthen the pack, especially your loosies.assfly wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 8:02 am Flyhalf is a real problem. The only time Bosch plays well is behind a strong pack, where his kicking can be quite good. But he offers little else on attack and doesn't play well under pressure.
But when our pack gets bullied, Bosch becomes a massive liability.
TBF its been a decades-old selection problem in Durban. Remember bruisers like Kankowski and Daniel....?
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LoveOfTheGame
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It's the only time Carter look vulnerable, but to this day he is the only flyhalf I've ever seen that actually managed to put in some good performances behind a struggling pack.Sandstorm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 8:41 amWhen the AB pack got bullied, Carter looked shite. Rugby is a game won up-front. Sharks need to strengthen the pack, especially your loosies.assfly wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 8:02 am Flyhalf is a real problem. The only time Bosch plays well is behind a strong pack, where his kicking can be quite good. But he offers little else on attack and doesn't play well under pressure.
But when our pack gets bullied, Bosch becomes a massive liability.
TBF its been a decades-old selection problem in Durban. Remember bruisers like Kankowski and Daniel....?
Best 10 to have ever played the game as far as I'm concerend.
He had a great record for them.
2008: Won the Currie Cup in 2008 (first one since 1996), Super rugby semi-finalists
2009: CC semi-finalists in 2009, SR finished 6th
2010: CC winners, bad SR season finishing 9th
2011: CC losing finalists, lost away to the Crusaders in playoff elimination
2012: CC losing finalists, lost away to the Chiefs in the final
Then he left for an Ireland assistant coach job in 2014 and Jake White took over for one year.
In the decade since, the Sharks have had 5 more coaches (including Plumtree's second go).
Something worked when JP was there the first time and broke when he left. I think he's the right guy or the job, just needs to be able to trim some dead wood in the squad.
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OomStruisbaai
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Challenge Cup is the way forward per Werner Kok
https://rugby365.com/news-european-cup/ ... on-moment/
https://rugby365.com/news-european-cup/ ... on-moment/
“This is a competition we can go for.
“The EPCR presents that opportunity to get into the play-offs and make it a successful year.
“It is [crucial] for us to find that connection in the team and get into a winning culture again.”
Kok said they have been playing a good game in patches, but at stages ‘the bounce of the ball’ has eluded them.
“When it comes off, and things work out for us, we will be unstoppable,” he said.
He added that they expect a ‘typical French team’ – a brutal forward onslaught and backs who like to display their flair.
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TheNatalShark
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It reads like it was sort of expected rather than something sudden and serious, hope the case. Also hope not a case that Sharks hadn't built in plans for him to have leave to visit family, we would/will be fine without him for a week or two here and there, and he felt pressure to go a bit sooner than expected.
There are rumours of Boeta leaving the $harks for the Bulls.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
Then the $harks can buy a replacement for Bo$ch.assfly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:36 am There are rumours of Boeta leaving the $harks for the Bulls.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
Funny how the $harks are always seen as the team buying players, when the Bulls must have spent much more than us on "acquisitions"
Anyway, Jordan Hendrikse is coming back home to Durban, which must have had an impact on Boeta's decision.
Obviously feeling the pressure of that missed kick that lost us a game. He is a confidence player like Manie Libbok. Except maybe worse.assfly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:36 am There are rumours of Boeta leaving the $harks for the Bulls.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
No loss honestly. He has been terrible for awhile. Time to get rid of some of the dead weight and advance the youngsters we bought. I reckon Plum is going through a cleansing phase which I welcome
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OomStruisbaai
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Welcome back Sards. Season greetings, hope you are well.Sards wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:14 amObviously feeling the pressure of that missed kick that lost us a game. He is a confidence player like Manie Libbok. Except maybe worse.assfly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:36 am There are rumours of Boeta leaving the $harks for the Bulls.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
No loss honestly. He has been terrible for awhile. Time to get rid of some of the dead weight and advance the youngsters we bought. I reckon Plum is going through a cleansing phase which I welcome
It's a swap deal. Makes sense tbh. We need some strong loose forwards from the BullsSards wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:14 amObviously feeling the pressure of that missed kick that lost us a game. He is a confidence player like Manie Libbok. Except maybe worse.assfly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:36 am There are rumours of Boeta leaving the $harks for the Bulls.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
No loss honestly. He has been terrible for awhile. Time to get rid of some of the dead weight and advance the youngsters we bought. I reckon Plum is going through a cleansing phase which I welcome
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OomStruisbaai
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Who do you swap for Boeta?Sards wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:34 amIt's a swap deal. Makes sense tbh. We need some strong loose forwards from the BullsSards wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:14 amObviously feeling the pressure of that missed kick that lost us a game. He is a confidence player like Manie Libbok. Except maybe worse.assfly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:36 am There are rumours of Boeta leaving the $harks for the Bulls.
Not sure how I feel about it. He has showed a lot of promise, but has never really pushed on. But can't blame the kid, can't be fun sitting behind Bosch and Fassi week after week. Although I can't see him getting much game time at the Bulls either given their Bok-laden mega squad of superstars.
No loss honestly. He has been terrible for awhile. Time to get rid of some of the dead weight and advance the youngsters we bought. I reckon Plum is going through a cleansing phase which I welcome
Their entire forward pack. Seems fair.
Goosen is on fire. Smith is a seasoned and capable replacement and they lose nothing with him coming on. Boeta would just be an injury enforced replacement.
Would be nice to get the angry warthog back
The teams are creating depth across all the tournaments. The Bulls might be a good cure for Boetas kicking woes
I am keeping a close eye on Assfly. The Sharks beat the French, vanquished them, not even close, one sided, Sharks ending the match standing victoriously over French broken bodies. But what do we get from Mnr.Assfly? The same comments as when the Sharks lose just a bit quieter.