NPR

Russia registers first corona virus vaccine. Probably taken a few shortcuts but Putin happy that all checks have been made. His own daughter got a shot. Mass production to start beginning of 2021.

Developed from Polonium, it uses the kill or cure principle.

I really hope it comes in a box with a picture of Salisbury Cathedral on it.

Amethyst wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:51 am His own daughter got a shot.

Let's hope she doesn't start to grow testicles and new ability to clean and jerk 150kg

I assume Big Donny T will be queueing up to buy this?

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:17 am

Amethyst wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:51 am His own daughter got a shot.

Let's hope she doesn't start to grow testicles and new ability to clean and jerk 150kg

Her immune system has improved immensely apparently, so the process seems to be well on its way..........

I reckon they've done phase i or phase i/ii and said that'll do. Wouldn't take that one myself.

China have done something similar in that their vaccine went through phase i/ii and then decided to go to a massive phase iii/iv within their military, skipping a normal phase iii (which is a large controlled trial of volunteers, the oxford vaccine and the US moderna vaccine are now in this phase).

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:42 am I reckon they've done phase i or phase i/ii and said that'll do. Wouldn't take that one myself.

China have done something similar in that their vaccine went through phase i/ii and then decided to go to a massive phase iii/iv within their military, skipping a normal phase iii (which is a large controlled trial of volunteers, the oxford vaccine and the US moderna vaccine are now in this phase).

I'd "rather" China's response, as it's at least still controlled. In truth, I'd rather wait until proper testing is done!

Russians gambling big time here, hopefully it doesn't bite them on the arse.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:48 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:42 am I reckon they've done phase i or phase i/ii and said that'll do. Wouldn't take that one myself.

China have done something similar in that their vaccine went through phase i/ii and then decided to go to a massive phase iii/iv within their military, skipping a normal phase iii (which is a large controlled trial of volunteers, the oxford vaccine and the US moderna vaccine are now in this phase).

I'd "rather" China's response, as it's at least still controlled. In truth, I'd rather wait until proper testing is done!

Russians gambling big time here, hopefully it doesn't bite them on the arse.

Yeah, they're still effectively having a large controlled trial, but it's pretty unethical as it doesn't involve volunteers (also doesn't cover the spread of demographics, so doesn't prove the fullrange of side effects across the population.).

Mass production only in 2021 so a few months of random testing before that. Risk could be worth it.

His daughter had a very bad 2 day fever as a result.

Sounds like she was just injected directly with covid.

Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:32 pm His daughter had a very bad 2 day fever as a result.

Sounds like she was just injected directly with covid.

Got to be cruel to be kind.

Well TBF if it works for the population, congrats; if it doesn't work the information will probably never be revealed.

Or she probably didn’t get injected, and Russia propaganda about his daughter in order to just infect everyone without them knowing and not worrying about fevers which prevail and hence create herd immunity.

Plenty of tin foil hat opportunities here.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:52 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:48 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:42 am I reckon they've done phase i or phase i/ii and said that'll do. Wouldn't take that one myself.

China have done something similar in that their vaccine went through phase i/ii and then decided to go to a massive phase iii/iv within their military, skipping a normal phase iii (which is a large controlled trial of volunteers, the oxford vaccine and the US moderna vaccine are now in this phase).

I'd "rather" China's response, as it's at least still controlled. In truth, I'd rather wait until proper testing is done!

Russians gambling big time here, hopefully it doesn't bite them on the arse.

eah, they're still effectively having a large controlled trial, but it's pretty unethical as it doesn't involve volunteers (also doesn't cover the spread of demographics, so doesn't prove the fullrange of side effects across the population.).

I wonder how many political prisoners volunteered for vaccine trials in China & Russia

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:43 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:52 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:48 am

I'd "rather" China's response, as it's at least still controlled. In truth, I'd rather wait until proper testing is done!

Russians gambling big time here, hopefully it doesn't bite them on the arse.

eah, they're still effectively having a large controlled trial, but it's pretty unethical as it doesn't involve volunteers (also doesn't cover the spread of demographics, so doesn't prove the fullrange of side effects across the population.).

I wonder how many political prisoners volunteered for vaccine trials in China & Russia

I'm sure plenty of Uighurs "volunteered"

Russia boasts many brilliant minds, despite some of the more decadent ones being lured by dollars to American and British universities. It's no surprise that they are world leaders in creating a COVID-19 vaccine. Well done to Russia.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:03 pm Russia boasts many brilliant minds, despite some of the more decadent ones being lured by dollars to American and British universities. It's no surprise that they are world leaders in creating a COVID-19 vaccine. Well done to Russia.

Certainly world leaders at creating biological weapons; & the skills are transferable

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:03 pm Russia boasts many brilliant minds, despite some of the more decadent ones being lured by dollars to American and British universities. It's no surprise that they are world leaders in creating a COVID-19 vaccine. Well done to Russia.

The issue isn't that they've made a vaccine, it's that there hasn't been a long term safety study done. Unless they've got time travel they haven't had time to regardless of how good their scientists are.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:03 pm Russia boasts many brilliant minds, despite some of the more decadent ones being lured by dollars to American and British universities. It's no surprise that they are world leaders in creating a COVID-19 vaccine. Well done to Russia.

If you could just find yourself a talented illustrator to team up with, you could make an absolute killing in the cut-throat self-published fairytale sector.

You'd need one who wasn't decadent, obviously. Russia is full of such selfless altruistic idealists.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:26 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:03 pm Russia boasts many brilliant minds, despite some of the more decadent ones being lured by dollars to American and British universities. It's no surprise that they are world leaders in creating a COVID-19 vaccine. Well done to Russia.

The issue isn't that they've made a vaccine, it's that there hasn't been a long term safety study done. Unless they've got time travel they haven't had time to regardless of how good their scientists are.

Indeed

redderneck wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:28 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:03 pm Russia boasts many brilliant minds, despite some of the more decadent ones being lured by dollars to American and British universities. It's no surprise that they are world leaders in creating a COVID-19 vaccine. Well done to Russia.

If you could just find yourself a talented illustrator to team up with, you could make an absolute killing in the cut-throat self-published fairytale sector.

You'd need one who wasn't decadent, obviously. Russia is full of such selfless altruistic idealists.

So how effective will a vaccine actually be? We have seen cases where people got the virus AGAIN after just 3 months.

Amethyst wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:35 pm So how effective will a vaccine actually be? We have seen cases where people got the virus AGAIN after just 3 months.

Don’t think that’s necessarily real, many cases it’s probably just stayed with a victim, and don’t think any have died under that suspected bracket.

Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:37 pm

Amethyst wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:35 pm So how effective will a vaccine actually be? We have seen cases where people got the virus AGAIN after just 3 months.

Don’t think that’s necessarily real, many cases it’s probably just stayed with a victim, and don’t think any have died under that suspected bracket.

Yeah - most reported cases are where they've had a positive test months after recovering. On investigation the tests are capturing dead virus cells.

There are some cases seen where the virus has gone dormant, then remerges. This happens sometimes with other viruses, such as Chickenpox, and is pretty rare.

It's likely that's vaccine will be pretty effective. With most vaccines, the actual effect is not to stop you becoming infected - but when you catch the virus your body is far faster to respond before your system becomes overwhelmed.

So, if we vaccinated a person and that reduced their chance of dying to a tenth of what we currently think it is, we actually have turned this into flu.

Also, vaccines generally give longer immunity than natural immunity. There's a lot of talk about getting second shots / boosters for this (like tetanus and yellow fever vaccines). In the Oxford trials, people with a second vaccine shot tended to show higher levels of immune system response than those who had recovered from the disease.

Researchers reckon there are more than one strain and the virus may have the ability to mutate. If that is the case, a vaccine may only be effective as the yearly flu vaccine which is not all that great.

Amethyst wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:12 am Researchers reckon there are more than one strain and the virus may have the ability to mutate. If that is the case, a vaccine may only be effective as the yearly flu vaccine which is not all that great.

It's not mutating anything like as fast as the flu and the different strains aren't so different that they require a different vaccine.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:31 am

Amethyst wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:12 am Researchers reckon there are more than one strain and the virus may have the ability to mutate. If that is the case, a vaccine may only be effective as the yearly flu vaccine which is not all that great.

It's not mutating anything like as fast as the flu and the different strains aren't so different that they require a different vaccine.

Not yet.......

Europeans and Americans wouldn't accept a Russian vaccine even if they did believe it was safe, as they see countries like Russia as being 'under' them. Same for a Chinese vaccine. Not to throw the R-word around, but it's always under the surface in this type of thing.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:53 am Europeans and Americans wouldn't accept a Russian vaccine even if they did believe it was safe, as they see countries like Russia as being 'under' them. Same for a Chinese vaccine. Not to throw the R-word around, but it's always under the surface in this type of thing.

R for “rushed to market”

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:53 am Europeans and Americans wouldn't accept a Russian vaccine even if they did believe it was safe, as they see countries like Russia as being 'under' them. Same for a Chinese vaccine. Not to throw the R-word around, but it's always under the surface in this type of thing.

You could make that assumption if you want, but I would counter it is more a case of both Russia and China being dictatorships without a history of suppressing independent journalism and academia and controlling their populations with a healthy dose of propaganda and force.

The reality is, while the vaccines they have developed might be effective, they are taking shortcuts (some of them potentially unethical ones) and they are being very cagey in not publishing the results.

They are the types of regimes that realise that the first country that has immunity will get a massive global economic boost as well as a lot of global influence, but that will also suffer little or no political consequences for endorsing and distributing a less than safe vaccine among their own population on their road to get there.

Blake wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:27 am

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:53 am Europeans and Americans wouldn't accept a Russian vaccine even if they did believe it was safe, as they see countries like Russia as being 'under' them. Same for a Chinese vaccine. Not to throw the R-word around, but it's always under the surface in this type of thing.

You could make that assumption if you want, but I would counter it is more a case of both Russia and China being dictatorships without a history of suppressing independent journalism and academia and controlling their populations with a healthy dose of propaganda and force.

The reality is, while the vaccines they have developed might be effective, they are taking shortcuts (some of them potentially unethical ones) and they are being very cagey in not publishing the results.

They are the types of regimes that realise that the first country that has immunity will get a massive global economic boost as well as a lot of global influence, but that will also suffer little or no political consequences for endorsing and distributing a less than safe vaccine among their own population on their road to get there.

Was going to say similar, but this is far more eloquently written!

Russia are not first. N Korea had a vaccine in February. 100% effective.

All hail our Dear Leader.

Meanwhile, depending on which source you look at anywhere between 15 - 30% of people here in the UK would refuse a vaccination and only half say they would definitely have it. Although we have a core of anti-vax "science/government is evil" the speed at which it is being done even from our own research, testing process and safety is also an issue raised.

That is certainly a point that is going to be a big problem to overcome.

Amethyst wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:34 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:31 am

Amethyst wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:12 am Researchers reckon there are more than one strain and the virus may have the ability to mutate. If that is the case, a vaccine may only be effective as the yearly flu vaccine which is not all that great.

It's not mutating anything like as fast as the flu and the different strains aren't so different that they require a different vaccine.

Not yet.......

From what I understand there are various ways in which a vaccine van target corona viruses. The one that most of the vaccines is pursuing is targeting the "spike protein" that forms the corona or "crown"...effectively putting a "cork on the needles". This will prevent the virus from attaching to the ACE2 receptors in the respiratory tract and getting a foothold. Unless the mutations occur on the spike protein, specifically changing it and the mode or transmission drastically, it should remain fairly effective. And as an additional benefit the vaccine might also be effective against the common cold and other corona virus strains that use the same spike protein.

I think the part that makes Covid-19 unique is that it also seems to be able to bind to CD147 receptors which is what is leading to bad outcomes in diabetic patients and hypertension sufferers. I suspect the hope is that herd immunity will shield the population to sufficiently limit the risk of infection, and then if infection does occur that the current treatments will be effective.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:39 am Meanwhile, depending on which source you look at anywhere between 15 - 30% of people here in the UK would refuse a vaccination and only half say they would definitely have it. Although we have a core of anti-vax "science/government is evil" the speed at which it is being done even from our own research, testing process and safety is also an issue raised.

That is certainly a point that is going to be a big problem to overcome.

Same here in South Africa. The population is massively susceptible to conspiracy theories and propaganda.
Our government has deep ties with both Russia and China, and also very anti-colonialist and anti-capitalist (at least in public).

So if we start with the potentially less effective or more dangerous Russian or Chinese vaccines and have bad outcomes, the anti-vax movement here will get a massive boost and the chances of people being willing to take the Oxford or any US vaccine will also go down significantly.

All the more reason for everybody to publish their results for global scientific scrutiny and to follow the proper testing protocols and phases. A botched vaccine will set us back even further in the long run.

I'd take the Russian or Chinese vaccines after seeing a proper safety trial. I wouldn't trust their results since they've already shown themselves not to be trustworthy on that front by their current actions.

Amethyst wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:34 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:31 am

Amethyst wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:12 am Researchers reckon there are more than one strain and the virus may have the ability to mutate. If that is the case, a vaccine may only be effective as the yearly flu vaccine which is not all that great.

It's not mutating anything like as fast as the flu and the different strains aren't so different that they require a different vaccine.

Not yet.......

Coronaviruses don't mutate at the same rates as flu viruses. That won't suddenly change.

Given the alacrity with which (we are told) Russia was attempting to hack into UK universities developing vaccines, and their long history of relying on espionage rather than innovation in science and technology, part of me wonders if the Russian vaccine is in fact a modified version of the Oxford (or any other) vaccine.