NPR

It's going to be really interesting to see how Ian Foster and his fellow selectors use BB this season, and over the course of the upcoming RWC cycle.

He's clearly not the best 10 in NZ anymore, and selecting him ahead of Mo'unga would be a travesty. Richie Mo'unga has gone from strength to strength in 2020 and he's elevated his game to a level well beyond anything BB has ever shown at first five.

However, I also don't think BB is the best 15 in NZ either. In fact, he's clearly been surpassed by his younger brother Jordie at fullback, who has developed his game massively this year. Arguably both David Havili and Will Jordan have also shown more at fullback this year than BB.

So where does that leave the dual WR Player of the Year and the highest paid player in NZ, Beauden Barrett?

Personally I can't see how he can wear any jersey other than 22. But knowing how incompetent the current selection team are, I have no doubt he will rotate between 10 and 15, moving Mo'unga back and forth from the bench and using Jordie Barrett as a 14. Therefore, we'll end up going into the 2023 RWC without knowing who our best first five and fullback is, just like we did last year in Japan?

I agree with all of this. Right now he is back as good utility option on the bench. If he is going to compete for a starting spot, I see his best chance at 15, because barring injury Mo’unga is streets ahead at 10.

That said, like you, if a side was being picked for next weekend I expect Foster would have him starting.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:28 am I agree with all of this. Right now he is back as good utility option on the bench. If he is going to compete for a starting spot, I see his best chance at 15, because barring injury Mo’unga is streets ahead at 10.

That said, like you, if a side was being picked for next weekend I expect Foster would have him starting.

My concern with BB is that he seems to have lost his attacking spark this year. He made very few, if any, line breaks during Super Rugby Aotearoa and really only showed any speed once against the Hurricanes. However that was the same match in which he was completely stood up defensively by Ngani Laumape. BB has always been heavily reliant in his speed, and at 29 years of age I can't see his top-end speed lasting too much longer.

Ah, the good old "guilty until proven innocent" approach.

Think I'll wait till they've actually selected the team before bagging their selections.

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:32 am Ah, the good old "guilty until proven innocent" approach.

Think I'll wait till they've actually selected the team before bagging their selections.

Sure, but this isn't a brand new selection team. We've already seen Foster & Fox butcher one RWC cycle, and their only selection so far in 2020 has been to name the 2nd/3rd best openside flanker in NZ as their All Black captain.

Foster may have a feeling of loyalty to Barrett. After all, Barrett publicly endorsed him for the coaching role last year.

All Blacks fullback Beauden Barrett has voiced his support for Ian Foster's bid to take over from Steve Hansen as head coach, saying he would like to see "continuity" in the role

.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:40 am Foster may have a feeling of loyalty to Barrett. After all, Barrett publicly endorsed him for the coaching role last year.

All Blacks fullback Beauden Barrett has voiced his support for Ian Foster's bid to take over from Steve Hansen as head coach, saying he would like to see "continuity" in the role

.

Foster is a graduate of the Steve Hansen 'blind loyalty is more important than common sense' school of Rugby coaching. This philosophy lost us the Rugby Championship last year and earned us 3rd place at the 2019 RWC.

9 - Aaron Smith
10 - Richie Mo'unga
11 - George Bridge
12 - Jack Goodhue
13 - Lienert-Brown
14 - Will Jordan
15 - Jordie Barrett

21 - TJ Perenara (Smith) 50"->
22 - Umaga-Jensen (Goodhue) 60"->
23 - Beauden Barrett (Bridge) 50"->

I think it's time the All Black selectors ditch the traditional (power-winger + 2nd fullback) and put the best players on the park.

Will Jordan and Beauden Barrett have plenty of wheels that make up for non-selection of Sevu Reece.

Find myself completely agreeing with AC’s analysis.

Even our key bored Aucklander FujiKiwi agrees with this.

Sam Cane. Not in top form. Can’t win close games.

BB. Clearly not our 10. And Jordan has to be 15. So that leaves one of the 2 Barrett’s on the bench. Though I’d rather have BB on bench than JB. I think one is less flakey.

Put him as utilityon the bench and start 25% of games. It'd be good for him to reduce his workload. Don't worry about his pay he's earned the right. He'll be better for it.

Cue overseas comments calling him the best flyhalf in the country.

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:32 am Ah, the good old "guilty until proven innocent" approach.

Think I'll wait till they've actually selected the team before bagging their selections.

Absolutely. I trust you will use both eyes as well.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:35 am Find myself completely agreeing with AC’s analysis.

Even our key bored Aucklander FujiKiwi agrees with this.

BB. Clearly not our 10. And Jordan has to be 15. So that leaves one of the 2 Barrett’s on the bench. Though I’d rather have BB on bench than JB. I think one is less flakey.

Firstly, I'm not pure Jafa. I combine the best of both worlds: North Harbour-born and raised and all my rugby through Harbour. Then lived in Auckland for fifteen years, right next to Eden Park.

Secondly, I wouldn't say BB is even our second best 10. That would be Josh Ioane.

Thirdly, Jordie is a fine Super rugby player but I would never have him in the ABs. A bit flaky and slow.

Beauden Barrett is the best impact player the world has ever seen. But apart from a brief, glorious run in 2016, he hasn't impressed as a starting 10.

In answer to the OP, he should come off the bench in every AB game until he retires.

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:20 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:32 am Ah, the good old "guilty until proven innocent" approach.

Think I'll wait till they've actually selected the team before bagging their selections.

Absolutely. I trust you will use both eyes as well.

I'd like to see how BB goes @10 in the Amber & Black Jersey. Richie Mo'unga is only a tackle away from being the next Damian McKenzie. I love a good redemption arc and Beauden Barrett pulling a DC 2015 in 2023 would be sweet indeed.

I reckon Ian Foster will restore BB to 10.

Cue the dumbest rugby fans in the country exhaling and declaring all is right with the world.

Until BB sprays his kicks all over the shop, doesn't play the percentages, and does his weird awkward sideways turn when distributing the ball.

Gonna be a mess, peeps.

Bluethunder wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:16 am Cue overseas comments calling him the best flyhalf in the country.

Here’s one saying Mo’unga looks the best 10 in NZ by a distance at the mo. Still think we’ll see BB at 15 though.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:31 am Beauden Barrett is the best impact player the world has ever seen.

I think this is really the answer. BB is devastating coming off the bench and I haven't seen anything this year that suggests his impact would be in any way diminished.

Whether fly-half or full-back he could quite happily pick his role back up, of coming off the bench and ripping back lines to shreds.

NZ are blessed to have such a player...

He starts at 15. The all blacks have never dropped quality and experience after one season of poor form in super rugby and the team has been much better because of it.

He wasn’t even that bad this year.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:21 pm He starts at 15. The all blacks have never dropped quality and experience after one season of poor form in super rugby and the team has been much better because of it.

He wasn’t even that bad this year.

No he wasn't that bad this year. And whilst he may have been surpassed by his younger brother, I would be fine with him staying at 15. My understanding is that he wants to play 10, so it will be interesting to see how Foster manages BB's massive ego.

Munch wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:37 pm

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:31 am Beauden Barrett is the best impact player the world has ever seen.

I think this is really the answer. BB is devastating coming off the bench and I haven't seen anything this year that suggests his impact would be in any way diminished.

Whether fly-half or full-back he could quite happily pick his role back up, of coming off the bench and ripping back lines to shreds.

NZ are blessed to have such a player...

The problem is he isn't the same player he was 5 years ago. Did he make a single line break in Super Rugby Aotearoa? He played a safe, composed role for the Blues which is the exact opposite of being an impact player.

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:26 pm

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:21 pm He starts at 15. The all blacks have never dropped quality and experience after one season of poor form in super rugby and the team has been much better because of it.

He wasn’t even that bad this year.

No he wasn't that bad this year. And whilst he may have been surpassed by his younger brother, I would be fine with him staying at 15. My understanding is that he wants to play 10, so it will be interesting to see how Foster manages BB's massive ego.

Was a lot of talk around the blues that he had taken on the role of senior legend helping out the team - how long that lasts in an All Blacks environment is anyones guess.

It was strange watching him fir the blue, he always appeared to have more time than other players on he field, yet he didn't make the blistering breaks as often as we're used to seeing.

Maybe just not able to get into full rhythm after his extended sabbatical

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:31 pm

Munch wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:37 pm

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:31 am Beauden Barrett is the best impact player the world has ever seen.

I think this is really the answer. BB is devastating coming off the bench and I haven't seen anything this year that suggests his impact would be in any way diminished.

Whether fly-half or full-back he could quite happily pick his role back up, of coming off the bench and ripping back lines to shreds.

NZ are blessed to have such a player...

The problem is he isn't the same player he was 5 years ago. Did he make a single line break in Super Rugby Aotearoa? He played a safe, composed role for the Blues which is the exact opposite of being an impact player.

True, I remember one break away try against the 'Canes but I can't seem to find footage of it. He's also lost a degree of pace which was one of his stand out features.

I still think that even with a dip in form, perhaps super sub is still his best position.

Are we assuming Foster will continue with dual playmakers or go more traditional?

And on that subject was classing it as “dual playmakers” last year part of the problem? For me, Barrett was coming to first receiver too often. Having more than one playmaker isn’t novel but it’s about having the game sense to know when to intervene from the back.

It might have sounded fancy and maybe softened any perceived blow of no longer wearing 10, but we didn’t need a job sharing arrangement for first-five. We needed our best option there as often as possible without interference.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:05 pm Are we assuming Foster will continue with dual playmakers or go more traditional?

And on that subject was classing it as “dual playmakers” last year part of the problem? For me, Barrett was coming to first receiver too often. Having more than one playmaker isn’t novel but it’s about having the game sense to know when to intervene from the back.

It might have sounded fancy and maybe softened any perceived blow of no longer wearing 10, but we didn’t need a job sharing arrangement for first-five. We needed our best option there as often as possible without interference.

Yeah I agree with all that. I'm watching the Highlanders vs Hurricanes match now and Jordie Barrett is playing like a dual playmaker should play. Injecting himself selectively and creating lots of opportunities for his outside men.

I agree with your thesis that the entire 'dual playmaker' label was created just to appease BB and soften the blow of losing his cherished 10 jersey. And I agree that BB failed spectacularly in that role in 2019.

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:26 pm

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:21 pm He starts at 15. The all blacks have never dropped quality and experience after one season of poor form in super rugby and the team has been much better because of it.

He wasn’t even that bad this year.

No he wasn't that bad this year. And whilst he may have been surpassed by his younger brother, I would be fine with him staying at 15. My understanding is that he wants to play 10, so it will be interesting to see how Foster manages BB's massive ego.

I don’t think he has a massive ego, just a loose tongue. Managing him will not be difficult imo. He wants to be in the ABs, he does what the coach says. The person with issues would have been MacDonald (high profile player joining up with a preference for 10) but BB seemed happy to take a backseat at 15 for the good of the team. That’s not the mark of someone with an ego.

I'm all for cutting deadwood out of the ABs anyway. I'm not saying that BB is quite that, although his pace is needed to supplement his flair, so if he loses it, that's a worry.

But Will Jordan is obviously the future at fullback for the ABs so I hope they don't fart around about getting him into the team and giving him some game time.

Jordan is not obviously the future at fb. JB had the better season and is already an all black. Jordan should definitely be in the picture though (for all back 3 positions - some of this season he played on the wing I think?)

Jordie Barrett has had several games for the ABs, and had one good one, against Italy.

He's slow. There's no place in ABs test rugby for a really slow fullback.

He has brain fades. Not all the time, but at the worst possible moments.

Also, he suffers a bit from being a utility player.

Look, he's great entertainment, and has some genuine qualities: A great boot. He's strong. A good front-on tackler. He's creative and ambitious as a player.

Ironically, what a lot of what makes him really good—his ability to see what might be on and his willingness to chance his arm to get it—makes him a real liability at test level.

I wouldn't have Jordie in the ABs at all.

That said, I am sure Foster is going to basically keep him a fixture in the squad through his eight year tenure as coach.

He is also an accurate kicker with very good range and probably the best in the country right now under the high ball.

His pace is only real problem. He will always struggle to shake the brain fart tag but he has been far better at that as he gets more experience.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:04 am He is also an accurate kicker with very good range and probably the best in the country right now under the high ball.

His pace is only real problem. He will always struggle to shake the brain fart tag but he has been far better at that as he gets more experience.

We essentially agree. For me, his slowness—and he is slow—is a deal breaker.

Again, his ambitious play is part of what makes him good, but is an Achilles heel. Some of those great, long passes he gives on the run that set up tries at Super level are going to be read and intercepted at test level, possibly in a RWC semifinal.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:58 am Jordie Barrett has had several games for the ABs, and had one good one, against Italy.

He's slow. There's no place in ABs test rugby for a really slow fullback.

He has brain fades. Not all the time, but at the worst possible moments.

Also, he suffers a bit from being a utility player.

Look, he's great entertainment, and has some genuine qualities: A great boot. He's strong. A good front-on tackler. He's creative and ambitious as a player.

Ironically, what a lot of what makes him really good—his ability to see what might be on and his willingness to chance his arm to get it—makes him a real liability at test level.

I wouldn't have Jordie in the ABs at all.

That said, I am sure Foster is going to basically keep him a fixture in the squad through his eight year tenure as coach.

If you wouldn't have Jordie in the ABs then you clearly haven't been watching SRA. He's been the Hurricanes most valuable player.

wet-socks wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:16 am
If you wouldn't have Jordie in the ABs then you clearly haven't been watching SRA. He's been the Hurricanes most valuable player.

Yes. But should being the most valuable player on a mid table team mean automatic AB selection?

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:18 am

wet-socks wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:16 am
If you wouldn't have Jordie in the ABs then you clearly haven't been watching SRA. He's been the Hurricanes most valuable player.

Yes. But should being the most valuable player on a mid table team mean automatic AB selection?

He's been outright best fullback in the country during this competition, get your selective bias out of here.

I've talked up Jordie Barrett all season. He's had by far his best season of professional rugby, and is an integral part of the Hurricanes team. But watching him get absolutely smoked for pace by Mitch Hunt in yesterday's match at Forsyth Barr stadium was hugely concerning. If Mitch Hunt can make Jordie Barrett his private dancer, what could elite test match wingers do?

wet-socks wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:20 am
He's been outright best fullback in the country during this competition, take your selective bias out of here.

You disagree that he's a very slow player, or think that that's unimportant?

Andre Taylor was the best fullback in Super rugby a few years back. Nobody was seriously suggesting he should be an AB.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:22 am

wet-socks wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:20 am
He's been outright best fullback in the country during this competition, take your selective bias out of here.

You disagree that he's a very slow player, or think that that's unimportant?

Andre Taylor was the best fullback in Super rugby a few years back. Nobody was seriously suggesting he should be an AB.

He has plenty of speed. AC's example isn't really fair - Jordie was committed to tackling Aaron Smith and was caught flat-footed by Hunt, who was going full tit when he caught the ball. Jordie had to turn and chase him. Impressive pace by Hunt, but there's no way Jordie's a slow player.

Jesus, Gumboot, I usually respect your rugby judgment, but Jordie Barrett has always been as slow as a wet week. It wasn't just him being skinned yesterday. That's par for the course.

You may want to perpetuate this myth, but I'm not buying it for a minute. Perhaps you can provide some instances of Jordie's speed being an issue. If what you're suggesting is true, I'm sure there must be many examples...

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:43 am You may want to perpetuate this myth, but I'm not buying it for a minute. Perhaps you can provide some instances of Jordie's speed being an issue. If what you're suggesting is true, I'm sure there must be many examples...

People don't make YouTube highlights packages of people running slow.

If he's got pace, there must be a highlights package of him using speed to score/set up tries? He's been around long enough. Please, point out to me one time Jordie used pace to achieve anything?

He gets a lot done by being big and strong. He runs good lines. I'm not saying he's a poor player. Just not a fast one.