NPR

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-sp ... lions-tour

Fortunately for Crusaders supporters tour most likely won't be going ahead, so hopes of 5-peat remain alive and well.

I saw he and Gats talking for ages together while their teams were doing their warm-ups prior to the game 3 weeks ago. Now it becomes clear as they seemed to be more than opposing team coaches.

It’s a smart way to gain some international experience. If it takes him out for the season it would be frustrating to have two of five head Super Rugby coaches away with the Lions but I would rather this if it meant keeping Robertson in NZ long term and if it places him better for a shot at the AB role.

I wonder how much NH politics could influence this. Does Gatland have discretion to pick him coaching team and how would it be viewed having two NZ based coaches?

The NH management would be daft not to pick him. Look at his pedigree FFS

I guess there comes a point in every coach's career when they want to work with the very best players.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:52 am I guess there comes a point in every coach's career when they want to work with the very best players.

Yeah, true... it’s a mark of the man’s character that Gats has stuck by his Lions commitment though.

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:03 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:52 am I guess there comes a point in every coach's career when they want to work with the very best players.

Yeah, true... it’s a mark of the man’s character that Gats has stuck by his Lions commitment though.

Of all the times to claim that the Chiefs are the very best players

Enzedder wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:37 am The NH management would be daft not to pick him. Look at his pedigree FFS

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 am

Enzedder wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:37 am The NH management would be daft not to pick him. Look at his pedigree FFS

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

It's not like that has stopped them before.

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:47 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 am

Enzedder wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:37 am The NH management would be daft not to pick him. Look at his pedigree FFS

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

It's not like that has stopped them before.

I'm struggling to think of an example that fits the bill. Who are you referring to?

Makes perfect sense from Robertson's point of view in that it gives him international experience and something to stick on his CV.

It also makes sense for the Lions to have such an accomplished coach in the camp but it seems to be entirely contrary to the Lions concept. It's one thing to be coached by a foreign coach based in the UK or a foreign coach who has Lions tenure but an unaffiliated coach seems a bridge too far. I'm not the biggest Lions fan believing the concept to have run its course and stuff like this tends to dilute the whole thing even further.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:54 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:47 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 am

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

It's not like that has stopped them before.

I'm struggling to think of an example that fits the bill. Who are you referring to?

Warren Gatland will be head coach despite not currently having anything to do with NH rugby.

Who is responsible for coaching appointments beyond head coach? Does Gatland have any discretion in this or is it down to the Lions board (or whatever equivalent exists)?

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:52 am I guess there comes a point in every coach's career when they want to work with the very best players.

bwahahahaha

Will he be teaching his dancing skills?

Could make for a good midweek head coach, could imagine he would get a lot out of the dirt trackers. Also expect he would add huge value to the touring group in general, might be controversial to have 2 kiwi club coaches involved though.

Robertson should do whatever he wants. He has nothing left to prove in NZ and the reality is he's likely to never coach the AB's. He's now behind Foster, Plumtree, Mooar and Mcleod. Unless the All Blacks turn into easy-beats soon, Foster will have an 8 year tenure and then one of his assistant coaches will take over.'

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:19 pm Robertson should do whatever he wants. He has nothing left to prove in NZ and the reality is he's likely to never coach the AB's. He's now behind Foster, Plumtree, Mooar and Mcleod. Unless the All Blacks turn into easy-beats soon, Foster will have an 8 year tenure and then one of his assistant coaches will take over.'

Wibble

You'd think Robertson got told at his interview that a lack of international experience was holding him back? Or at least he's read between the lines that's what he got out of it.

If that were a very important criterion, a Jamie Joseph/Tony Brown combination applying for the AB coaching positions would look to be better placed than Robertson's next time round, even if Robertson does a quick Lions tour in Gatland's shadow.

He might need to bite the bullet and move overseas. Which would still leave Joseph and Brown in a good position. Robertson might be in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:48 am You'd think Robertson got told at his interview that a lack of international experience was holding him back? Or at least he's read between the lines that's what he got out of it.

If that were a very important criterion, a Jamie Joseph/Tony Brown combination applying for the AB coaching positions would look to be better placed than Robertson's next time round, even if Robertson does a quick Lions tour in Gatland's shadow.

He might need to bite the bullet and move overseas. Which would still leave Joseph and Brown in a good position. Robertson might be in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation.

Of course he's dammed if he does of doesn't. Robertson is further away from the AB head coach position now than ever before, because Plumtree and Mooar are now gaining international experience, and the favour of Ian Foster, from inside the system.

I share a lot of your pessimism, AC. I just don't think it's quite as bleak as you think (But still pretty bleak).

I think a RWC loss in 2023 might just get Foster fired and no automatic hand off to his assistants. Especially if it's a massive debacle. Which it could be.

But look at that "hopeful" scenario. It requires an absolute clusterfuck by our team for there to be any hope of improvement.

Yeah, nah. You're right. it's absolutely depressing.

Jb1981 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:10 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:54 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:47 am

It's not like that has stopped them before.

I'm struggling to think of an example that fits the bill. Who are you referring to?

Warren Gatland will be head coach despite not currently having anything to do with NH rugby.

Who is responsible for coaching appointments beyond head coach? Does Gatland have any discretion in this or is it down to the Lions board (or whatever equivalent exists)?

Warren Gatland has decades of history in the NH, having coached Ireland, Wales, and Wasps, and was twice previously Lions head coach while being involved in NH rugby. I don't actually want a guy who is not currently involved with NH rugby being head coach, but it's a real stretch to compare him and Robertson.

Scott Robertson has no link to NH rugby.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 am

Enzedder wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:37 am The NH management would be daft not to pick him. Look at his pedigree FFS

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

Is this a prerequisite? Honouring tradition in a sense?

Genuine question... is there something in the Lions’ defining statements that requires a domestic coach?

But I do agree that the lions is supposed to be a representation of B&I and all the nations and coaching represented. This is why the Scots are pissed off at Gatlands win over representation approach.

Though having said that, Gatland won’t be one such representative. Won’t know the players for 2 years, or have his team played against those players for 2 years, yet has to get involved in selection.

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 am

Enzedder wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:37 am The NH management would be daft not to pick him. Look at his pedigree FFS

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

Is this a prerequisite? Honouring tradition in a sense?

Genuine question... is there something in the Lions’ defining statements that requires a domestic coach?

No, I don't think so. Though I'd guess that the Home Unions like their coaches to be involved if nothing more than for the experience.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:01 am

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 am

He has absolutely nothing to do with B&I rugby. He shouldn't be picked for that basis alone.

Is this a prerequisite? Honouring tradition in a sense?

Genuine question... is there something in the Lions’ defining statements that requires a domestic coach?

No, I don't think so. Though I'd guess that the Home Unions like their coaches to be involved if nothing more than for the experience.

Understandable. I find myself becoming more sympathetic to the idea that an outside coach wouldn’t be desirable...

there’s an element of preserving tradition at play, the ‘sanctity’ of some aspects of rugby that most of us would prefer see untouched.

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:43 am

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:19 pm Robertson should do whatever he wants. He has nothing left to prove in NZ and the reality is he's likely to never coach the AB's. He's now behind Foster, Plumtree, Mooar and Mcleod. Unless the All Blacks turn into easy-beats soon, Foster will have an 8 year tenure and then one of his assistant coaches will take over.'

Wibble

You say wibble. I say PREACH CC!

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:13 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:01 am

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:35 am

Is this a prerequisite? Honouring tradition in a sense?

Genuine question... is there something in the Lions’ defining statements that requires a domestic coach?

No, I don't think so. Though I'd guess that the Home Unions like their coaches to be involved if nothing more than for the experience.

Understandable. I find myself becoming more sympathetic to the idea that an outside coach wouldn’t be desirable...

there’s an element of preserving tradition at play, the ‘sanctity’ of some aspects of rugby that most of us would prefer see untouched.

The Lions existed for decades purely because of tradition. It makes money now which is the reason why it's such a big deal for the unions these days, but I would much prefer to see at least some attempt to retain the traditions.

This is only so he can't be criticised for having no Scots involved.

Starting to look more likely

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/super- ... 1606943640

This is the sort of attitude I really like in what I read about Robertson. There was something similar during lockdown where the Crusaders and Leinster shared analysis of each other (how they would plan to attack etc). I love the innovation to learn.

NZ’s best coach wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:12 pm “It wasn't an assistant role I was wanting, it was a learning opportunity for me”

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:17 pm This is only so he can't be criticised for having no Scots involved.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:17 pm This is only so he can't be criticised for having no Scots involved.

Well played.

I saw him saying it would be good for his international CV. Vomit. The Lions should be the pinnacle for the NH game, not a stepping stone for a jobbing Kiwi looking to impress the NZ management.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:21 am I saw him saying it would be good for his international CV. Vomit. The Lions should be the pinnacle for the NH game, not a stepping stone for a jobbing Kiwi looking to impress the NZ management.

Quite. I don't like it, but can just about go with an overseas coach who is currently working in the UK but this is ridiculous. Given a decent chunk of the players will also be from overseas it does devalue the whole "pinnacle of NH rugby" thing. I hate pro rugby.

Rumours that he was in line for Pivac's seat if he went early.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:21 am I saw him saying it would be good for his international CV. Vomit. The Lions should be the pinnacle for the NH game, not a stepping stone for a jobbing Kiwi looking to impress the NZ management.

I think you’re seriously underestimating Razor if you actually believe that.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:21 am I saw him saying it would be good for his international CV. Vomit. The Lions should be the pinnacle for the NH game, not a stepping stone for a jobbing Kiwi looking to impress the NZ management.

Robertson easily won Super Rugby Aotearoa, the same comp in which your overrated Lions head coach led an arguably stronger squad to a pathetic 0-8 season record.

Yes yes he's amazing, you're missing the point. I'm not underestimating anyone by claiming he's looking to impress the NZ management, though - he literally said he wanted it on his international CV.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm Yes yes he's amazing, you're missing the point. I'm not underestimating anyone by claiming he's looking to impress the NZ management, though - he literally said he wanted it on his international CV.

Sure. He’s just a jobbing Kiwi trying to impress NZ management.

Right.

Shanky’s mate wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:25 pm Yes yes he's amazing, you're missing the point. I'm not underestimating anyone by claiming he's looking to impress the NZ management, though - he literally said he wanted it on his international CV.

Sure. He’s just a jobbing Kiwi trying to impress NZ management.

Right.

The jobbing bit is an insult of course, but the rest of it is absolutely accurate. He's literally said it himself! It'd look good on his CV! Who do you think that CV is for?!

What's the big deal? Good on Razor for looking to widen his coaching experience, and he obviously been told by NZRU that he next in line for ABs, as they contracting him for a few years. I reckon he won't even be paid by Lions, but will do it with NZR pay. We all know how keen NZR is on coaches having some kind of international experience before they take on ABs. Hell Rennie is cutting his international teeth with Wallabies (ok not hell of a well admittedly) but it is how Henry, Hansen etc did it. Let them learn the difference between Super and test rugby and anything that makes them better coaches is great. As it is coaches that only coach Super teams in NZ tend to all coach very similar type of rugby, very good rugby, but not always the type that is required at Test standard.