NPR

The RFU is basically going to have to ask for a bailout:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/ ... 54241.html

Other national Unions probably in a similar situation.

What on earth does the future hold?

Back to amateur?

One can only dream.

There will be at least one more tranche of pay reductions with all the concomitant contract breaking, whining about short careers and isolated stand-makers who just don't get it who then lose their job (Greg *cough* Bateman). Then clubs will wind up and/or sell their land to lease back to survive.

tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:50 pm The RFU is basically going to have to ask for a bailout:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/ ... 54241.html

Other national Unions probably in a similar situation.

What on earth does the future hold?

Not just Pro rugby

It is almost impossible to exaggerate the depth of the abyss into which much of the game – professional and amateur – in Britain and Ireland is now staring. At every level it relies, in sickness or in health, on the top of the pyramid delivering for the benefit of all. So when the Rugby Football Union, until recently the wealthiest union in the world, says a government bailout is needed to prop up the whole edifice a chill shiver should run down the spine of everyone with an oval-shaped heart.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog ... he-abyss

Kawazaki wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:05 pm There will be at least one more tranche of pay reductions with all the concomitant contract breaking, whining about short careers and isolated stand-makers who just don't get it who then lose their job (Greg *cough* Bateman). Then clubs will wind up and/or sell their land to lease back to survive.

How's your old club coping? Ok I hope.

CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:55 pm Back to amateur?

One can only dream.

+1

The SRU sent out new “membership” options this week mainly predicated on being able to ballot a few tickets for the Autumn. If this doesn’t happen, and it looks very unlikely, I imagine they are going to be in very deep shit

It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

SaintK wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:26 pm

What on earth does the future hold?

Not just Pro rugby

It is almost impossible to exaggerate the depth of the abyss into which much of the game – professional and amateur – in Britain and Ireland is now staring. At every level it relies, in sickness or in health, on the top of the pyramid delivering for the benefit of all. So when the Rugby Football Union, until recently the wealthiest union in the world, says a government bailout is needed to prop up the whole edifice a chill shiver should run down the spine of everyone with an oval-shaped heart.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog ... he-abyss
[/quote]


What sort of things do the RFU do for clubs at the lowest tiers? Not having a go, just wondering.

When Rugby Canada raised all rego fees (after many clubs had already advertised their pay structure to members and even collected in some early-bird cases) for the men's national team's hopeless World Cup quest, angry conversations revealed many people who felt the grassroots could easily go it alone if we could find an insurance provider. Quebec managed to find one years ago, for less money even, but were threatened and pressured back into the fold.

SaintK wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:29 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:05 pm There will be at least one more tranche of pay reductions with all the concomitant contract breaking, whining about short careers and isolated stand-makers who just don't get it who then lose their job (Greg *cough* Bateman). Then clubs will wind up and/or sell their land to lease back to survive.

How's your old club coping? Ok I hope.

Not been down there for a while. They moved much of the gym outside onto the huge new terrace and put some gazebos over. Looked good actually so would have got some income from that. The place looks fantastic, it's got literally everything and before lockdown the club has hosted quite a few representative matches. England Women, England Deaf, Men's Essex County side have all played fixtures there and I heard England U18s were supposed to play a match there too so it obviously meets some kind of facility standard that supports representative level rugby. The pitches look magnificent tbf but I think the contractor they use to look after them is likely chasing up invoices! I think the club has just one employee left now. The bar has been open and they've been serving food but it's obviously very limited what they can do and income is just not there.

How about your place?

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

It was nice to see the Junior Minister tell Premiership football clubs today that if they think they can pay players £600k a week and still get a bailout they can get fucked

Niegs wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:11 pmWhen Rugby Canada raised all rego fees (after many clubs had already advertised their pay structure to members and even collected in some early-bird cases) for the men's national team's hopeless World Cup quest, angry conversations revealed many people who felt the grassroots could easily go it alone if we could find an insurance provider. Quebec managed to find one years ago, for less money even, but were threatened and pressured back into the fold.

That's mighty interesting.

USA Rugby was bankrupt BEFORE covid, so God only knows what the state of things are now. Like you guys it seems they effectively survive on membership fees.

Going to be a rough couple of years.

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:26 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

It was nice to see the Junior Minister tell Premiership football clubs today that if they think they can pay players £600k a week and still get a bailout they can get fucked

If only that were the exact language he used.

I imagine sports here are less reliant upon ticket revenue than rugby at least appears to be, but the likes of the NFL are nevertheless shitting themselves. Their losses in revenue are going to be measured in billions.

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:26 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

It was nice to see the Junior Minister tell Premiership football clubs today that if they think they can pay players £600k a week and still get a bailout they can get fucked

Quite. Or spend a couple of hundred million on two or three players. At least for Wendy ball there’s loads of tv money in the game should they decide to redistribute it. Rugby, not so much in the scheme of things.

It will be interesting to see how things play out for professional Rugby globally over the next 12-24 months. You'd have to think that the days of high-spending NH clubs throwing millions of pounds/euros around for Kiwi, South African and Australian players might be over for a while. Even if just temporarily. You'd also have to think the centralised governance structures of a countries like NZ or Ireland, where all the franchises and provinces are ultimately funded through the governing union, might be more robust in a time of crisis than the French or English model?

[quote="Carter's Choice" post_id=32943 time=1600900972 user_id=102]
It will be interesting to see how things play out for professional Rugby globally over the next 12-24 months. You'd have to think that the days of high-spending NH clubs throwing millions of pounds/euros around for Kiwi, South African and Australian players might be over for a while. Even if just temporarily. You'd also have to think the centralised governance structures of a countries like NZ or Ireland, where all the franchises and provinces are ultimately funded through the governing union, might be more robust in a time of crisis than the French or English model?
[/quote]

Whilst I do hope you're correct that certain NH clubs will curtail or cease altogether their policy of buying in players from the SH, I wouldn't agree with your assessment that the centrally-funded model is more robust than the privately-owned club model. Most of the NH clubs have access to something the Unions don't - the largesse of very wealthy individuals. In short, virtually every income stream the RFU, IRU, WRU, NZRU etc etc has stops when the rugby stops. Wealthy club owners have income streams that don't rely on rugby. They also have something else in their favour, there are lots of them. If one or two English clubs fail then, sad as that is, there are still ten left. If a Union goes bust then all the centrally-funded teams go down with it.

It's splitting hairs though really as every rugby model is doomed unless a return to some form of commercial normality returns.

Kawazaki wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:30 pm

SaintK wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:29 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:05 pm There will be at least one more tranche of pay reductions with all the concomitant contract breaking, whining about short careers and isolated stand-makers who just don't get it who then lose their job (Greg *cough* Bateman). Then clubs will wind up and/or sell their land to lease back to survive.

How's your old club coping? Ok I hope.

Not been down there for a while. They moved much of the gym outside onto the huge new terrace and put some gazebos over. Looked good actually so would have got some income from that. The place looks fantastic, it's got literally everything and before lockdown the club has hosted quite a few representative matches. England Women, England Deaf, Men's Essex County side have all played fixtures there and I heard England U18s were supposed to play a match there too so it obviously meets some kind of facility standard that supports representative level rugby. The pitches look magnificent tbf but I think the contractor they use to look after them is likely chasing up invoices! I think the club has just one employee left now. The bar has been open and they've been serving food but it's obviously very limited what they can do and income is just not there.

How about your place?

Have to say the new place looks terrific though c ost of upkeep must be pretty stiff especially if there's a reliance on income from events and hospitality which isn't there at the moment.
We're doing ok, we only have one paid part timer who manages the clubhouse, he did a great job during lockdown giving the place a bloody good clean and tidy up. We've been making a reasonable weekly profit since ethe bar reopened (the weather's helped with that) which will just about cover the weekly outgoings also got a fairly healthy bank balance and have not dipped into any of the grant money that's been made available via Herts RFU
It's been great to see the mini/junior and girls section back under the return to play protocols so there's a bit of a buzz on a Sunday as we stagger all the age group training. Think the seniors have been getting 40 or so on a Tuesday and Thursday though that will probably dwindle as the weather changes. Can't see any competetive rugby being played until next year at the earliest just need to keep everyone interested and avoid too much drift.
I'm still well involved at the club on the commercial side, mainly sponsorship. Managed to bring in £30k last season and were targetting £50k for this season, not much chance of that now though will still give it a go. We've also had generous offers of support from several (very) wealthy former players should we get into financial difficulties.
Think we're in a quite lucky position, can't see some clubs surviving a season without any rugby

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:26 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

It was nice to see the Junior Minister tell Premiership football clubs today that if they think they can pay players £600k a week and still get a bailout they can get fucked

I must have missed when they applied the same thinking to their mates in the City.

Nowell's plan ...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ssion=true

The government need to act fast or sports are sunk without a trace.

Outdoors and social distancing is possible at rugby ground. How are they more dangerous than pubs and restaurants?

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:59 pm https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ssion=true

The government need to act fast or sports are sunk without a trace.

Outdoors and social distancing is possible at rugby ground. How are they more dangerous than pubs and restaurants?

Rugby grounds, unless you're bringing people through in ones and twos over the course of a couple of hours, have far greater numbers going through choke points in quick succession.

Not that I think pubs and restaurants open at anything above 50% capacity is a good idea either...

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:05 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:59 pm https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ssion=true

The government need to act fast or sports are sunk without a trace.

Outdoors and social distancing is possible at rugby ground. How are they more dangerous than pubs and restaurants?

Rugby grounds, unless you're bringing people through in ones and twos over the course of a couple of hours, have far greater numbers going through choke points in quick succession.

Not that I think pubs and restaurants open at anything above 50% capacity is a good idea either...

As many of Nowell's critics said, it's not just about the ground, but the getting to and from. Lots of people packing public transit and queuing up for something that's not essential.

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:34 am

Carter's Choice wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:42 pm It will be interesting to see how things play out for professional Rugby globally over the next 12-24 months. You'd have to think that the days of high-spending NH clubs throwing millions of pounds/euros around for Kiwi, South African and Australian players might be over for a while. Even if just temporarily. You'd also have to think the centralised governance structures of a countries like NZ or Ireland, where all the franchises and provinces are ultimately funded through the governing union, might be more robust in a time of crisis than the French or English model?

Whilst I do hope you're correct that certain NH clubs will curtail or cease altogether their policy of buying in players from the SH, I wouldn't agree with your assessment that the centrally-funded model is more robust than the privately-owned club model. Most of the NH clubs have access to something the Unions don't - the largesse of very wealthy individuals. In short, virtually every income stream the RFU, IRU, WRU, NZRU etc etc has stops when the rugby stops. Wealthy club owners have income streams that don't rely on rugby. They also have something else in their favour, there are lots of them. If one or two English clubs fail then, sad as that is, there are still ten left. If a Union goes bust then all the centrally-funded teams go down with it.

It's splitting hairs though really as every rugby model is doomed unless a return to some form of commercial normality returns.

What this shit of a disease may do though is to give everyone the opportunity to reset the watch - and hopefully get it right this time.

Enzedder wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:16 am

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:34 am

Carter's Choice wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:42 pm It will be interesting to see how things play out for professional Rugby globally over the next 12-24 months. You'd have to think that the days of high-spending NH clubs throwing millions of pounds/euros around for Kiwi, South African and Australian players might be over for a while. Even if just temporarily. You'd also have to think the centralised governance structures of a countries like NZ or Ireland, where all the franchises and provinces are ultimately funded through the governing union, might be more robust in a time of crisis than the French or English model?

Whilst I do hope you're correct that certain NH clubs will curtail or cease altogether their policy of buying in players from the SH, I wouldn't agree with your assessment that the centrally-funded model is more robust than the privately-owned club model. Most of the NH clubs have access to something the Unions don't - the largesse of very wealthy individuals. In short, virtually every income stream the RFU, IRU, WRU, NZRU etc etc has stops when the rugby stops. Wealthy club owners have income streams that don't rely on rugby. They also have something else in their favour, there are lots of them. If one or two English clubs fail then, sad as that is, there are still ten left. If a Union goes bust then all the centrally-funded teams go down with it.

It's splitting hairs though really as every rugby model is doomed unless a return to some form of commercial normality returns.

What this shit of a disease may do though is to give everyone the opportunity to reset the watch - and hopefully get it right this time.

I hope so Enz, I really don't like the way rugby is heading and maybe this is a blessing in a very big disguise. As I've said many times, it wouldn't make me unhappy if rugby went amateur again but at the very least this is a chance to make it more sustainable and bury the idiotic global growth plans. Make it our niche sport again.

Well, that's the grassroots game in England done until January next year at the earliest

Under powers delegated by Council, the RFU Governance Committee have made the difficult decision that, with the exception of Premiership, Championship and Premier 15s rugby, no organised* RFU or non-RFU Leagues including merit tables, adult or age grade competitions will be played before January 2021 at the earliest.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -january
Good luck all the small community clubs

SaintK wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:40 am Well, that's the grassroots game in England done until January next year at the earliest

Under powers delegated by Council, the RFU Governance Committee have made the difficult decision that, with the exception of Premiership, Championship and Premier 15s rugby, no organised* RFU or non-RFU Leagues including merit tables, adult or age grade competitions will be played before January 2021 at the earliest.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -january
Good luck all the small community clubs

My old club raised over £30k from memebers at the start of this to see them through for a while, not sure how long that will last. On the upside, this should make them stop paying players which is great.

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 am

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Grassroots community clubs are facing extinction. Clearly, thinking and spelling are a bit much for you.

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:54 am

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 am

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Grassroots community clubs are facing extinction. Clearly, thinking and spelling are a bit much for you.

That's what happens when you have had a few rums and been stuck in lockdown for over 100 days.

As you guys are about to find out for yourselves.

Enzedder wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:16 am What this shit of a disease may do though is to give everyone the opportunity to reset the watch - and hopefully get it right this time.

It'll likely do the complete opposite. If the Unions are bankrupt then they have little to zero leverage negotiating with club owners who are still stinking rich. Plus of course, the rich owners will likely be much better deal-makers or at least employ better lawyers.

Add in that the French clubs are currently taking the FFR (and by extension World Rugby) to court over player access for internationals with the English clubs fully behind the French clubs (who do have a good case to be honest) then you can see the direction of travel. If Kerry Packer were still alive then you could probably guess what happens next...

... and who's to say that isn't the best model anyway?

Test matches aren't really special any more. Even RWCs are just a resumption in routine and regular hostilities at the sharp end. Players are reaching 150 caps. This is not what test rugby should be in my opinion.

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:10 am

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:54 am

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 am

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Grassroots community clubs are facing extinction. Clearly, thinking and spelling are a bit much for you.

That's what happens when you have had a few rums and been stuck in lockdown for over 100 days.

As you guys are about to find out for yourselves.

We'll pass on your best wishes to all the folks that are likely to lose their jobs, incomes and livelihoods.
Now fuck off back under that slimey rock from where you came.

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:10 am

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:54 am

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 am

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Grassroots community clubs are facing extinction. Clearly, thinking and spelling are a bit much for you.

That's what happens when you have had a few rums and been stuck in lockdown for over 100 days.

As you guys are about to find out for yourselves.

So what's your stake in this?

Who was GLE on PR? The relentless arseholery is really quite something.

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:54 am

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 am

Un Pilier wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:08 pm It all looks rather grim, and Rugby will be far from the only sport seeking a bailout. The business / financial model for most clubs must be completely shot.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Grassroots community clubs are facing extinction. Clearly, thinking and spelling are a bit much for you.

Ironically its the clubs owned by the spivs that have a better chance of surviving as pointed out earlier.

tc27 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:20 am

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:54 am

Green light echo wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 am

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of spivs.

Oh how are heart bleeds for them

Grassroots community clubs are facing extinction. Clearly, thinking and spelling are a bit much for you.

Ironically its the clubs owned by the spivs that have a better chance of surviving as pointed out earlier.

With no gate receipts there will be massive job cuts for back office staff come what may, spiv or no spiv

So what's the rationale for no grass roots Rugby in England? Here in Australia some grass roots sports played over winter and some didn't. The limitations on spectators, sharing of fields and facilities and COVID-19 related guidelines for serving food and beverages meant that it wasn't feasible for some clubs to operate. Local clubs make their money from food, alcohol and gate takings, and if you aren't able to sell food and beverages and spectaors aren't allowed in venues then it isn't viable to operate at a loss.

Carter's Choice wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:50 am So what's the rationale for no grass roots Rugby in England? Here in Australia some grass roots sports played over winter and some didn't. The limitations on spectators, sharing of fields and facilities and COVID-19 related guidelines for serving food and beverages meant that it wasn't feasible for some clubs to operate. Local clubs make their money from food, alcohol and gate takings, and if you aren't able to sell food and beverages and spectaors aren't allowed in venues then it isn't viable to operate at a loss.

Not sur, but a couple of cynical ideas

1 Pro sport, not just rugby, gives the people a welcome distraction from how shitty their situations are and assists in keeping the population docile. Doing this has an increased value during the pandemic.
2. Pro rugby players contracting covid only stops them playing rugby, amateur players contracting it potentially saps workers away from other work that's more useful to the economy in the current environment. I don't mean useful in terms of revenue generation, but the actual utility of their work. Anyone involved in food production and the food supply chain, the great web of medical care, IT/tech services, Electricians, Plumbers and so on - all the people who low key keep the society we've created ticking along. Reducing their risk of contracting the virus by taking away an entirely optional potential source of infection is a trade off the government are will to make.
3 Governing body doesn't want to have to deal with the consequences of allowing it and a shitload of participants getting infected.

Carter's Choice wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:50 am So what's the rationale for no grass roots Rugby in England? Here in Australia some grass roots sports played over winter and some didn't. The limitations on spectators, sharing of fields and facilities and COVID-19 related guidelines for serving food and beverages meant that it wasn't feasible for some clubs to operate. Local clubs make their money from food, alcohol and gate takings, and if you aren't able to sell food and beverages and spectaors aren't allowed in venues then it isn't viable to operate at a loss.

Grassroots rugby clubs have a number of ways they generate revenue, and probably all junior clubs are non-profit making with many, including my own, adopting amateur CASC status which offers certain tax benefits much like a charity might get.

The biggest income stream for most junior clubs is the bar on match days but also including events like BBQs, discos and hiring out the club to third-parties. Next largest income stream is likely annual subscriptions from members or sponsorship by local companies, often from ex-players who have their own businesses. Some clubs hire out their pitches for events as well.

Lastly, clubs rely on grants from the RFU, local government or NGOs, and finally gifts from current or ex-members.

Test matches aren't really special any more. Even RWCs are just a resumption in routine and regular hostilities at the sharp end. Players are reaching 150 caps. This is not what test rugby should be in my opinion.

Yet everything that isn't test rugby depends on the gate receipts from test rugby to be viable?

What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

Niegs wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:15 am What do amateur clubs need the income for, beyond facility utilities and field upkeep? Taxes? Over here, few clubs own their own grounds and I know at one where I coached, the electricity bill was the main expenditure.

Just wondering what shutting up shop completely costs amateur clubs? A lot of the chatter I saw in twitter yesterday was about losing kids to football (which seems to be running in some places?) or having to rebuild a player base when the sport opens up again.

I know my local club has gone down from being able to field 3 teams with subs and spares to barely fielding 1 in the course of this pandemic, i also know other local clubs are in the same boat which would suggest at the grass roots this is a clear pattern. It may be that a lot of the smaller local clubs will need to merge to survive which will be a lot of history and local rivalry gone forever.