At the time that the Bolsheviks came to prominence in Russia the country was in complete disarray. After the Russian civil war, the formation of the Soviet Union and the death of Lenin he rose to power.
His tenure lasted circa 30 years and was only ended due to poor health, not because of a political defeat or due to assassination. During his tenure the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany and he built the country into a global superpower that controlled half of Europe, half of a divided Germany and was a thorn in the side of the United States for the 40 years of the Cold War. During his tenure Marxism-Leninism gained traction throughout the world and the Soviet Union became the second country to have nuclear power and began developing a space program that would enable them to put a man in space.
He was of course an incredibly cruel and tyrannous dictator but I think it's fair to say that he had a much greater impact on history than any other figure of the 20th century and his legacy and accomplishments far outweigh those of Hitler and Churchill in my humble opinion.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:33 pm
by Bimbowomxn
Hitlers “accomplishments”
Dear god.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:42 pm
by Flockwitt
Probably the single largest mass slaughterer in history of his own country folk. One epitaph I suppose.
You also want to check the manner of his passing. It's highly suspected now he was poisoned.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:45 pm
by Hugo
Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:33 pm
Hitlers “accomplishments”
Dear god.
This is precisely what I am getting at. Our understanding of 20th century history is centred around Hitler, to the extent that the ONLY thing that you took from my post and commented on was him. Anything regarding Stalin was ignored.
Hitler is considered the most important figure of the century but I think Stalin was a much more impactful figure and arguably more significant.
Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:33 pm
Hitlers “accomplishments”
Dear god.
This is precisely what I am getting at. Our understanding of 20th century history is centred around Hitler, to the extent that the ONLY thing that you took from my post and commented on was him. Anything regarding Stalin was ignored.
Hitler is considered the most important figure of the century but I think Stalin was a much more impactful figure and arguably more significant.
Oh, ok. On that basis I’ve always been incredulous that the hammer and sickle flag isn’t treated like the Swastika is rightly treated.
Bimbowomxn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:33 pm
Hitlers “accomplishments”
Dear god.
This is precisely what I am getting at. Our understanding of 20th century history is centred around Hitler, to the extent that the ONLY thing that you took from my post and commented on was him. Anything regarding Stalin was ignored.
Hitler is considered the most important figure of the century but I think Stalin was a much more impactful figure and arguably more significant.
Oh, ok. On that basis I’ve always been incredulous that the hammer and sickle flag isn’t treated like the Swastika is rightly treated.
Yeah, its an interesting dynamic. Nazism was militarily defeated and morally discredited by the end of the 1940's. Nazi is a byword for someone who is a repugnant arsehole, it is a synonym of racist. Communists have visited at least as much misery and suffering on the world (and over a longer period of time) as Nazi Germany did but Marxism-Leninism does not carry with it the same stigma. By the same token Stalin is not seen as the pre-eminent evil doer of the 20th century - Hitler is.
Is it a blind spot? Is the way that we view history warped? It's hard to know exactly why it is. Maybe it's something as simple as the fact that geographically speaking Germany is a central European nation whereas Russia exists on Europe's periphery.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:52 pm
by Sandstorm
Stalin fought the Nazis, so the West will always cut him loads of slack.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:20 pm
by C69
Sandstorm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:52 pm
Stalin fought the Nazis, so the West will always cut him loads of slack.
The victors write history.
Stalin for me was just as bad as Hitler.
Pinochet and Thatcher now there was a pair.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:03 pm
by Plim
No doubt the historical, political and social treatment of Stalin and Soviet communism - to be general about the term: I appreciate there’s a tedious taxonomy of Marxist thought and practice - has many causes. But I’ve always thought that middle class intellectual fashion has been the main influence in keeping the far left ‘respectable’.
If universities, the arts and some professions weren’t stuffed with apologist Marxists we’d regard the left‘s despotism as being as abhorrent as the right’s.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:44 pm
by CrazyIslander
The fact Stalin kept his cruelty at home was a big negative for his profile. On the same token Hitler tried to smite the world so he deservedly gets a bigger profile.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:54 pm
by Niegs
Bill Burr doesn't under-rate him:
"He almost tripled his [Hitler's] fucking numbers... he gets brought up like he's a backup." [In another, he referred to him as the 'Drew Brees of mass murderers']
"20-25 million is like Michael Jackson 'Thriller' ... 6 million is like Hootie and the Blowfish 'Cracked Rearview Mirror'"
"This was was photoshopping people out of existence before the technology existed. He changed the fucking game!"
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:19 am
by stemoc
Stalin pushed for education in Russia,he was seen as the original socialist leader, a term now seen as bad in the US cause morons associate socialism with him..he also pushed to get rid of religions cause he knew they were dangerous, and he was thus dubbed a militant atheist but when more than 60% of population in ur country are "relitards" they will dub him a tyrant.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:59 am
by Tighthead_Trev
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:42 pm
Probably the single largest mass slaughterer in history of his own country folk. One epitaph I suppose.
You also want to check the manner of his passing. It's highly suspected now he was poisoned.
That would be Mao. Easily. Doubles Stalins numbers. 45 million + dead.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:13 am
by stemoc
to a degree, stalin, hitler, mao all did the world a favour, had they not killed those 100m+ ppl, the world population today will be over 10bn, a lot more pollution, a lot more problems, and a lot more mouths to feed...wars are humans way of culling the masses..not a single disease in this world can kill and control as many ppl as wars can
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:04 am
by Paddington Bear
There's certainly little doubt global history would look a lot different without him.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:06 am
by Certain Navigator
CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:44 pm
The fact Stalin kept his cruelty at home was a big negative for his profile. On the same token Hitler tried to smite the world so he deservedly gets a bigger profile.
If 'home' includes Poland, Hungary, Czecho, Estonia, Ukraine etc etc.
Confining one's atrocities to the home front would be a description better applied to Mao, who managed to kill far more people than both Stalin and Hitler.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:26 am
by Sandstorm
stemoc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:13 am
to a degree, stalin, hitler, mao all did the world a favour, had they not killed those 100m+ ppl, the world population today will be over 10bn, a lot more pollution, a lot more problems, and a lot more mouths to feed...wars are humans way of culling the masses..not a single disease in this world can kill and control as many ppl as wars can
Malaria wants a word.....
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:56 am
by Slick
stemoc wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:13 am
to a degree, stalin, hitler, mao all did the world a favour, had they not killed those 100m+ ppl, the world population today will be over 10bn, a lot more pollution, a lot more problems, and a lot more mouths to feed...wars are humans way of culling the masses..not a single disease in this world can kill and control as many ppl as wars can
Maybe we need some kind of International Genocide Day where we celebrate the contibution to global society of mass murderers, rather than constantly running them down, and try to change the narrative of their hard work.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:02 am
by Woddy
as does the bubonic plague / Black Death and smallpox and a few others in the American and Caribbean context.
Genghis Khan is tapping Stalin et al on the shoulder.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:19 am
by Woddy
anyway, Stalin is in no way under-acknowledged. What he and the systems he helped set up achieved are matters of some wonder, bad and good. But the romantic political figures for communism are elsewhere: Lenin, Trotsky, early Mao, Guevara.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:27 am
by Hal Jordan
Stalin et al did have the advantage of being around a lot longer than the Nazis so their numbers are swayed by that. But they were all cunts.
On the plus side, The Death of Stalin is a great film.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:28 am
by stemoc
Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:02 am
as does the bubonic plague / Black Death and smallpox and a few others in the American and Caribbean context.
Genghis Khan is tapping Stalin et al on the shoulder.
none of those can dot he same damage today, the last major pandemic killed 50m ppl 102 years ago, if science did not exist today, Covid would end up killing between 500m-1bn people within 2 years
Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:02 am
as does the bubonic plague / Black Death and smallpox and a few others in the American and Caribbean context.
Genghis Khan is tapping Stalin et al on the shoulder.
none of those can dot he same damage today, the last major pandemic killed 50m ppl 102 years ago, if science did not exist today, Covid would end up killing between 500m-1bn people within 2 years
No it wouldn’t.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:37 am
by Bimbowomxn
Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:19 am
anyway, Stalin is in no way under-acknowledged. What he and the systems he helped set up achieved are matters of some wonder, bad and good. But the romantic political figures for communism are elsewhere: Lenin, Trotsky, early Mao, Guevara.
CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:44 pm
The fact Stalin kept his cruelty at home was a big negative for his profile. On the same token Hitler tried to smite the world so he deservedly gets a bigger profile.
If 'home' includes Poland, Hungary, Czecho, Estonia, Ukraine etc etc.
Confining one's atrocities to the home front would be a description better applied to Mao, who managed to kill far more people than both Stalin and Hitler.
Woddy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:19 am
anyway, Stalin is in no way under-acknowledged. What he and the systems he helped set up achieved are matters of some wonder, bad and good. But the romantic political figures for communism are elsewhere: Lenin, Trotsky, early Mao, Guevara.
“And good”.
He managed to keep the spirit of the Russian / Soviet people going through some pretty dark times, and their industry, and consequently destroyed the Axis in the east and more particularly the Nazis. Obviously, there is also a very dark side to much of that, built off the backs of many he killed and of innumerable others he likely cared very little or nothing for. And even the "good" bits he shares credit with others for, but he was part of it.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:12 am
by MungoMan
A short summation of Stalin is a toughie, but here goes:
An utter cunt but hard to ignore.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:31 pm
by Uncle fester
If Stalin hadn't been around, Soviet Union may well have collapsed into anarchy or another leader like him would have stepped up.
Middle East post Saddam is a good illustration of how precarious a balance of power can be.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:15 pm
by Kawazaki
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:42 pm
Probably the single largest mass slaughterer in history of his own country folk. One epitaph I suppose.
You also want to check the manner of his passing. It's highly suspected now he was poisoned.
Stalin was highly accomplished at genocide no doubt, but he was an amateur compared to Mao.
Flockwitt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:42 pm
Probably the single largest mass slaughterer in history of his own country folk. One epitaph I suppose.
You also want to check the manner of his passing. It's highly suspected now he was poisoned.
Stalin was highly accomplished at genocide no doubt, but he was an amateur compared to Mao.
Compared to Christianity in it's many guises through the ages , they are bloody amateurs.
Be it the Church or Royalty acting on behalf of Christ
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:07 pm
by Tichtheid
The British Empire.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:32 pm
by lemonhead
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:27 am
Stalin et al did have the advantage of being around a lot longer than the Nazis so their numbers are swayed by that. But they were all cunts.
On the plus side, The Death of Stalin is a great film.
Great cast all round but Isaacs knocks it out the park, must watch again.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:35 pm
by FullbackAce
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:31 pm
If Stalin hadn't been around, Soviet Union may well have collapsed into anarchy or another leader like him would have stepped up.
Middle East post Saddam is a good illustration of how precarious a balance of power can be.
When Lenin died there were plenty of Mensheviks and social democrats still around, if not for Stalin a lot of countries would've become independent democratic republics a century ago, leading to much less death in the east. The only downside is Germans would've marched all the way to UlanBator but that would've been better for the locals as all the small republics would've just chosen to stand down(almost half the male population in the countries like Georgia, lithuania, Belarus died out in WW2) It also would've been terrible news for the Allies as they would've had to face the entirety of Wermachts armies. In short, Stalin was a horrible fate for the local cultures but a lucky break for Brits and Yanks.
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:31 pm
If Stalin hadn't been around, Soviet Union may well have collapsed into anarchy or another leader like him would have stepped up.
Middle East post Saddam is a good illustration of how precarious a balance of power can be.
When Lenin died there were plenty of Mensheviks and social democrats still around, if not for Stalin a lot of countries would've become independent democratic republics a century ago, leading to much less death in the east. The only downside is Germans would've marched all the way to UlanBator but that would've been better for the locals as all the small republics would've just chosen to stand down(almost half the male population in the countries like Georgia, lithuania, Belarus died out in WW2) It also would've been terrible news for the Allies as they would've had to face the entirety of Wermachts armies. In short, Stalin was a horrible fate for the local cultures but a lucky break for Brits and Yanks.
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:31 pm
If Stalin hadn't been around, Soviet Union may well have collapsed into anarchy or another leader like him would have stepped up.
Middle East post Saddam is a good illustration of how precarious a balance of power can be.
When Lenin died there were plenty of Mensheviks and social democrats still around, if not for Stalin a lot of countries would've become independent democratic republics a century ago, leading to much less death in the east. The only downside is Germans would've marched all the way to UlanBator but that would've been better for the locals as all the small republics would've just chosen to stand down(almost half the male population in the countries like Georgia, lithuania, Belarus died out in WW2) It also would've been terrible news for the Allies as they would've had to face the entirety of Wermachts armies. In short, Stalin was a horrible fate for the local cultures but a lucky break for Brits and Yanks.
Misplaced sarcasm, Georgians had no place fighting in a war against some central European dipshits to save bloody Russia. So many people died that one-third of settlements in the country were abandoned. Add to that Stalinist repressions and it was a bloody hell. How would Nazis be any different for us? they would march in, put some collaborator in charge and move on. Maybe have their own repressions and gulags but without millions of dead in the war. If they're sending you to a bloody concentration camp does it matter if it has a swastika or a hammer & sickle painted at the gate? Bolsheviks and Nazis are one and the same to us. It's you guys who see them differently.
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:27 am
Stalin et al did have the advantage of being around a lot longer than the Nazis so their numbers are swayed by that. But they were all cunts.
On the plus side, The Death of Stalin is a great film.
Great cast all round but Isaacs knocks it out the park, must watch again.
I haven't watched this movie yet. I love the accents!
When Lenin died there were plenty of Mensheviks and social democrats still around, if not for Stalin a lot of countries would've become independent democratic republics a century ago, leading to much less death in the east. The only downside is Germans would've marched all the way to UlanBator but that would've been better for the locals as all the small republics would've just chosen to stand down(almost half the male population in the countries like Georgia, lithuania, Belarus died out in WW2) It also would've been terrible news for the Allies as they would've had to face the entirety of Wermachts armies. In short, Stalin was a horrible fate for the local cultures but a lucky break for Brits and Yanks.
Misplaced sarcasm, Georgians had no place fighting in a war against some central European dipshits to save bloody Russia. So many people died that one-third of settlements in the country were abandoned. Add to that Stalinist repressions and it was a bloody hell. How would Nazis be any different for us? they would march in, put some collaborator in charge and move on. Maybe have their own repressions and gulags but without millions of dead in the war. If they're sending you to a bloody concentration camp does it matter if it has a swastika or a hammer & sickle painted at the gate? Bolsheviks and Nazis are one and the same to us. It's you guys who see them differently.
Sadly ironic that Stalin and a few others in power (Beria?) were Georgian themselves. We will never know what difference it might have made, if any, to Hitler not being able to rail against the Communist menace to his east without Stalin or a similar powerlord making and taking over the Soviet empire.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:07 am
by FullbackAce
Bolsheviks helped Hitler Consolidate power in the beginning. Even their special forces were trained by NKVD. Not to mention the whole Molotov-Ribbentrop thing.
As for Stalin being Georgian, he had a serious grudge against his own country because he was rightfully seen as scum and a criminal. His record in Georgia included robberies, racketeering, kidnappings, and blackmail in order to fund bolsheviks during the revolution.
Before Soviet invasion, democratic elections were held in Georgia(1919) that became one of the first fully free Democratic elections of the 20th century, with equal rights for men/women/minorities etc. something that most of the world considered radical at that point. Social-Democratic Party won by a landslide - Communists were also on the ballot but with the result they got you'd think the election had been held in Texas.
Later on, the infamous Quartet of Henchmen - Stalin, Beria, Orjonikidze, Lakoba planned the invasion of Georgia. Post take over they started exterminating all the democratically-minded people. Writers, Poets, Publicists, Politicians, Officers, Professors. Anyone with a bit of gravitas who could've spoken out against them.
Next, they founded the Young Stalinist educational institutions where they started raising kids loyal to uncle Stalin. So the next generation grew up learning about Stalin the hero of Georgians who delivered us from evil.
Re: Is Stalin an underrated figure in history?
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 am
by Sandstorm
FullbackAce wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:07 am
Bolsheviks helped Hitler Consolidate power in the beginning. Even their special forces were trained by NKVD. Not to mention the whole Molotov-Ribbentrop thing.
As for Stalin being Georgian, he had a serious grudge against his own country because he was rightfully seen as scum and a criminal. His record in Georgia included robberies, racketeering, kidnappings, and blackmail in order to fund bolsheviks during the revolution.
Before Soviet invasion, democratic elections were held in Georgia(1919) that became one of the first fully free Democratic elections of the 20th century, with equal rights for men/women/minorities etc. something that most of the world considered radical at that point. Social-Democratic Party won by a landslide - Communists were also on the ballot but with the result they got you'd think the election had been held in Texas.
Later on, the infamous Quartet of Henchmen - Stalin, Beria, Orjonikidze, Lakoba planned the invasion of Georgia. Post take over they started exterminating all the democratically-minded people. Writers, Poets, Publicists, Politicians, Officers, Professors. Anyone with a bit of gravitas who could've spoken out against them.
Next, they founded the Young Stalinist educational institutions where they started raising kids loyal to uncle Stalin. So the next generation grew up learning about Stalin the hero of Georgians who delivered us from evil.
Jeez, embarrassed to say I know nothing about the sad history of Georgia. Fcuk Stalin.
