The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[KingBlairhorn]

Have jumped on the Chris Harris hype train and stuck £50 on him making the initial Lions squad odds of 7-1 tempted me in

Yaaasss always room on this train!

He seems like he'd be an excellent tourist. The sort of player that fans would really take to. If there were any.

He's got cult hero written all over him.

[I like neeps]

Harris getting picked for the Lions would be great for the Scottish exiles program. Took a 27 year old Newcastle centre who would've never got a look in with England and he became a Lion.

[Biffer]

Yup. First tour he was too young, second tour he got the facial injury. He was proper gutted the second time, I imagine he would be apoplectic if he was denied the chance for any reason other than injury this time round.

If we were talking about them generally withholding his participation I agree. But if they make the final and intend for him to play then he signed the contact, enjoyed the money from the contract and should fulfill the contract.

Gatland has expressed the concern that all Premiership clubs might withhold their players until the final, not just the ones taking part in the playoffs.

[Slick]

Yup. First tour he was too young, second tour he got the facial injury. He was proper gutted the second time, I imagine he would be apoplectic if he was denied the chance for any reason other than injury this time round.

If we were talking about them generally withholding his participation I agree. But if they make the final and intend for him to play then he signed the contact, enjoyed the money from the contract and should fulfill the contract.

Gatland has expressed the concern that all Premiership clubs might withhold their players until the final, not just the ones taking part in the playoffs.

Quite, including Saracens who don't even have any games. Surprisingly, the clubs think this problem could be ironed out with a bit of cash...

[JM2K6]

There's been no indication that the clubs are considering not releasing players if they're not in the playoffs. Gatland's being a little disingenuous.

Mind you, it's two of the most rapaciously money-oriented organisations in rugby going head to head so I don't expect either side to be honest and fair here.

[Slick]

There's been no indication that the clubs are considering not releasing players if they're not in the playoffs. Gatland's being a little disingenuous.

Mind you, it's two of the most rapaciously money-oriented organisations in rugby going head to head so I don't expect either side to be honest and fair here.

That's exactly what they seem to be saying

The argument between the British & Irish Lions and the Gallagher Premiership clubs is desperately unfortunate; it is hard to see how there cannot be casualties and, inevitably, that will be the players. Across the top-flight sides there will be players asking themselves if this disagreement over player release will cost them a place on the Lions tour.

One of the clubs most likely to be at the heart of this is Exeter Chiefs. The defending champions look well set to return to the Premiership final and have a number of players who are borderline Lions candidates and may now be in increased danger of missing out. Players such as Henry Slade, Luke Cowan-Dickie and Jonny Gray will thus be nervous watchers when the squad is announced on May 6.

A meeting between the two sides on Tuesday failed to create a solution. The issue is not only the fixture clash with the Lions’ “home” game against Japan having been scheduled for June 26, the same day as the Premiership final.

It also goes beyond the fact that players in the Premiership final will miss the two-week training camp. A deeper issue is that all the Premiership clubs are, at present, refusing to release their players for the training camp, even those who do not make it to the final.

Representatives of the Lions and Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL) are set to meet again next week at which point there will be only two weeks before the squad is selected.

Warren Gatland, the Lions head coach, has made the threat that 50-50 selection calls would go against the English players if they are not made available. That is where the likes of Slade, Cowan-Dickie and Gray will be worried.


Quite how the clubs can or will enforce their position and prevent their players from joining the Lions training camp remains to be seen. Stuart Hooper, the Bath director of rugby, said that he would be talking to his Lions candidates and explaining to them why the clubs are making the stand. “It’s important they fully understand rather than just do what they are told,” he said.

“It’s an unfortunate situation, but it has not been created by the Premiership,” Rob Baxter, the Exeter Chiefs director of rugby, said. “The Lions have known the Premiership schedule for a long time now, about a year, so they know there was no way of cutting the season short. For the Lions now to turn around and say this is the scenario is a little bit disingenuous.”

PRL argues that the Lions are the aggressors here because they arranged the Japan game for the same day as the Premiership’s showcase final.

The Lions would respond that they switched the venue away from London as requested, to Edinburgh, and their kick-off time means there will be no overlap.

PRL is also angry that the Japan game falls outside the international window. It is in its regulations that players are not released outside the window. The stand-off is yet another example of how rugby’s administrators continue to fail in their duty to lead the game.

While it is expected that, at some point, a resolution will be found so that clubs who are not in the final will release their players, there is no answer to the fact that the two games — the Premiership final and the Lions’ game against Japan — are overlapping and so some players will be unable to attend the Lions’ training camp.

Someone like Slade could therefore be at a disadvantage. If the selectors are weighing up Slade against, for instance, Wales’s George North or Ireland’s Garry Ringrose, then Slade may be the one who misses out in the final selection.

There is a similar issue for Cowan-Dickie at hooker and Gray at lock, both of which are competitive positions.

Baxter has some careful man-management to do here as his side gear up for a title defence and added that the only thing his players could do, in this situation, is to play well.

He said: “I don’t think if there is a player playing in the Premiership final, if Warren Gatland thinks he is an important player in his squad, that he would leave [him] out. I wouldn’t.

“If I am Warren Gatland sitting and watching guys play outstandingly well in Premiership semi-finals and finals, do I decide I don’t want them to be part of the Lions tour because they have missed a week’s training? What I say to our players is that they will get themselves on the tour by playing well. The bigger games they play, the more chance they have got. You have to show you are a good player and if you are, the coach will take you on tour.

“I don’t for one second think that Warren Gatland won’t take a player because they missed a week’s training or a warm-up game — it is not like they need game time as they will have been playing.

“Will it potentially be an excuse to leave out a fringe player or someone who is expected to go? Possibly. But I don’t think it will be based on availability but playing performance at the time.”

[JM2K6]

Every quote from Premiership bods has been about the playoffs. I would not be surprised if "clubs are refusing to release their players" means "no-one can commit to releasing players until they know who's in the playoffs". The only quote there that gives me pause is the Stuart Hooper one.

I must admit I didn't know the Lions were planning on playing matches outside the international window, which seems strange to me. I do think the clubs should be releasing players, and I don't think they should be asking for much compensation if they're not in the playoffs.

We really need to get past this shit every time. I'd be happy for fewer matches in the Premiership if it means everyone gets the same time in camp for internationals, but given how frequently England camps break our players it's a double edged sword.

[Big D]

Yup. First tour he was too young, second tour he got the facial injury. He was proper gutted the second time, I imagine he would be apoplectic if he was denied the chance for any reason other than injury this time round.

If we were talking about them generally withholding his participation I agree. But if they make the final and intend for him to play then he signed the contact, enjoyed the money from the contract and should fulfill the contract.

Gatland has expressed the concern that all Premiership clubs might withhold their players until the final, not just the ones taking part in the playoffs.

As I said, in that instance I would agree that Hogg would be right to be upset. However if Exeter make the final and his bumps and moans about it then he would be in the wrong.

It is the Lions that moved to play a game outside the designated window, Exeter have done nothing wrong.

[Slick]

If we were talking about them generally withholding his participation I agree. But if they make the final and intend for him to play then he signed the contact, enjoyed the money from the contract and should fulfill the contract.

Gatland has expressed the concern that all Premiership clubs might withhold their players until the final, not just the ones taking part in the playoffs.

As I said, in that instance I would agree that Hogg would be right to be upset. However if Exeter make the final and his bumps and moans about it then he would be in the wrong.

It is the Lions that moved to play a game outside the designated window, Exeter have done nothing wrong.

I don't have a problem in any way with the clubs holding on to their players if they have a final to play, and I'm not sure the players or Gatland really would either. The reported decision by all of them to withold players or get cash does piss me off, and I'd imagine will piss off those players as well.

[KingBlairhorn]

Gatland has expressed the concern that all Premiership clubs might withhold their players until the final, not just the ones taking part in the playoffs.

As I said, in that instance I would agree that Hogg would be right to be upset. However if Exeter make the final and his bumps and moans about it then he would be in the wrong.

It is the Lions that moved to play a game outside the designated window, Exeter have done nothing wrong.

I don't have a problem in any way with the clubs holding on to their players if they have a final to play, and I'm not sure the players or Gatland really would either. The reported decision by all of them to withold players or get cash does piss me off, and I'd imagine will piss off those players as well.

This is more or less the point I was trying to make (badly).

[JM2K6]

Collective bargaining innit. The Lions would love full access to the players to help them make an absolute killing, while paying no extra for the privilege. It's all a commercial argument.

[Slick]

Collective bargaining innit. The Lions would love full access to the players to help them make an absolute killing, while paying no extra for the privilege. It's all a commercial argument.

I'm not being facetious here, and totally agree that the Lions is just as commercial these days, but how will having the players in a pre tour training camp help the Lions make a financial killing?

[JM2K6]

Collective bargaining innit. The Lions would love full access to the players to help them make an absolute killing, while paying no extra for the privilege. It's all a commercial argument.

I'm not being facetious here, and totally agree that the Lions is just as commercial these days, but how will having the players in a pre tour training camp help the Lions make a financial killing?

Isn't this about the Japan game?

[Big D]

Collective bargaining innit. The Lions would love full access to the players to help them make an absolute killing, while paying no extra for the privilege. It's all a commercial argument.

I'm not being facetious here, and totally agree that the Lions is just as commercial these days, but how will having the players in a pre tour training camp help the Lions make a financial killing?

Isn't this about the Japan game?

I don't think it'll matter financially (in terms of Lions making more or less money)for the Japan game. It is more about prep time I think. Murrayfield will sell out what tickets they are allowed to easily and Sky will show it.

There should be a financial agreement made but I don't think the Japan game is an issue financially.

[JM2K6]

I'm not being facetious here, and totally agree that the Lions is just as commercial these days, but how will having the players in a pre tour training camp help the Lions make a financial killing?

Isn't this about the Japan game?

I don't think it'll matter financially (in terms of Lions making more or less money)for the Japan game. It is more about prep time I think. Murrayfield will sell out what tickets they are allowed to easily and Sky will show it.

There should be a financial agreement made but I don't think the Japan game is an issue financially.

The Japan game is a money-spinner, how could it not be?

[Slick]

Collective bargaining innit. The Lions would love full access to the players to help them make an absolute killing, while paying no extra for the privilege. It's all a commercial argument.

I'm not being facetious here, and totally agree that the Lions is just as commercial these days, but how will having the players in a pre tour training camp help the Lions make a financial killing?

Isn't this about the Japan game?

I was talking more about the 2 week training camp before the Japan game that the players are not being released for.

[JM2K6]

I'm not being facetious here, and totally agree that the Lions is just as commercial these days, but how will having the players in a pre tour training camp help the Lions make a financial killing?

Isn't this about the Japan game?

I was talking more about the 2 week training camp before the Japan game that the players are not being released for.

Right, but the training camp is for the Japan game, so I don't think we can disassociate those things. It's not the tour proper, just some exhibition match. The Lions are trying to extend the release window via the back door, and in service of a match that a) isn't against a South African side, b) isn't in South Africa, and c) primarily exists to earn more wonga.

Do the Saffers get any of the Japan match money btw? Serious question, no idea of the answer.

[Slick]

Isn't this about the Japan game?

I was talking more about the 2 week training camp before the Japan game that the players are not being released for.

Right, but the training camp is for the Japan game, so I don't think we can disassociate those things. It's not the tour proper, just some exhibition match. The Lions are trying to extend the release window via the back door, and in service of a match that a) isn't against a South African side, b) isn't in South Africa, and c) primarily exists to earn more wonga.

Do the Saffers get any of the Japan match money btw? Serious question, no idea of the answer.

Just stop it, JM. The training camp is for the tour, they get on a plane the day after the Japan game and have their first tour game 5 days later, of course it's not just for the Japan game. They are not proposing a 2 week training camp for a pre tour game against Japan and then a 5 day camp for the first actual game of the tour.

[JM2K6]

I was talking more about the 2 week training camp before the Japan game that the players are not being released for.

Right, but the training camp is for the Japan game, so I don't think we can disassociate those things. It's not the tour proper, just some exhibition match. The Lions are trying to extend the release window via the back door, and in service of a match that a) isn't against a South African side, b) isn't in South Africa, and c) primarily exists to earn more wonga.

Do the Saffers get any of the Japan match money btw? Serious question, no idea of the answer.

Just stop it, JM. The training camp is for the tour, they get on a plane the day after the Japan game and have their first tour game 5 days later, of course it's not just for the Japan game. They are not proposing a 2 week training camp for a pre tour game against Japan and then a 5 day camp for the first actual game of the tour.

Look, I'm happy to accept that the training camp is still useful for the tour and that despite the Lions calling it "pre-tour" it will obviously be to Gatland's benefit. But it's also a training camp for the money-spinning exhibition match they're playing before they even leave, so, y'know. The tour was originally meant to be 3rd July to 7th August. Instead we're looking at something like the 17th of June as the start point - a huge change in such a virus-affected year.

The Lions don't need 3 weeks of training before playing the first Saffer provincial team. I would have a lot more sympathy for the Lions if that Japan match was actually the first tour match, but those provincial sides don't make as much bank as an international team, so here we are.

[Big D]

Isn't this about the Japan game?

I don't think it'll matter financially (in terms of Lions making more or less money)for the Japan game. It is more about prep time I think. Murrayfield will sell out what tickets they are allowed to easily and Sky will show it.

There should be a financial agreement made but I don't think the Japan game is an issue financially.

The Japan game is a money-spinner, how could it not be?

Yes, but whether the English contingent is available makes hee haw difference to that game being a commercial success (or failure). Fans are desperate to see any live rugby, if wee Jimmy from Gorgie doesn't want to attend because Stuart Hogg isn't playing then Steve from Leith will go instead because it is the only way he'll ever see the Lions live. And I am sure Sky have already agreed to show the game.

The issue is rightly or wrongly the Lions want the players available for training and meet ups. IIRC the previous couple of tours have seen the squads meet before departure date and have a week at home and even if the Japan game wasn't on they'd still want the guys the week of the Japan game. I agree the Lions have acted poorly in this case but disagree the Japan game will be less successful financially because a couple of players are unavailable, which was my only point.

[JM2K6]

I don't think it'll matter financially (in terms of Lions making more or less money)for the Japan game. It is more about prep time I think. Murrayfield will sell out what tickets they are allowed to easily and Sky will show it.

There should be a financial agreement made but I don't think the Japan game is an issue financially.

The Japan game is a money-spinner, how could it not be?

Yes, but whether the English contingent is available makes hee haw difference to that game being a commercial success (or failure). Fans are desperate to see any live rugby, if wee Jimmy from Gorgie doesn't want to attend because Stuart Hogg isn't playing then Steve from Leith will go instead because it is the only way he'll ever see the Lions live. And I am sure Sky have already agreed to show the game.

The issue is rightly or wrongly the Lions want the players available for training and meet ups. IIRC the previous couple of tours have seen the squads meet before departure date and have a week at home and even if the Japan game wasn't on they'd still want the guys the week of the Japan game. I agree the Lions have acted poorly in this case but disagree the Japan game will be less successful financially because a couple of players are unavailable, which was my only point.

Yes, I misunderstood your earlier post. Yes, I agree English player unavailability won't impact the commerical success of the Japan game much. Was just making the point that asking for money for player release for such a commercial enterprise isn't an entirely unreasonable thing to do, particularly given the Lions' piss-taking re: the dates they've started their training camps.

I think in recent tours there's been dates where the squad's met up, but not this sort of 2 1/2 week farrago before they even set foot in the country they're touring.

[Slick]

I don't think it'll matter financially (in terms of Lions making more or less money)for the Japan game. It is more about prep time I think. Murrayfield will sell out what tickets they are allowed to easily and Sky will show it.

There should be a financial agreement made but I don't think the Japan game is an issue financially.

The Japan game is a money-spinner, how could it not be?

Yes, but whether the English contingent is available makes hee haw difference to that game being a commercial success (or failure). Fans are desperate to see any live rugby, if wee Jimmy from Gorgie doesn't want to attend because Stuart Hogg isn't playing then Steve from Leith will go instead because it is the only way he'll ever see the Lions live. And I am sure Sky have already agreed to show the game.

The issue is rightly or wrongly the Lions want the players available for training and meet ups. IIRC the previous couple of tours have seen the squads meet before departure date and have a week at home and even if the Japan game wasn't on they'd still want the guys the week of the Japan game. I agree the Lions have acted poorly in this case but disagree the Japan game will be less successful financially because a couple of players are unavailable, which was my only point.

am no goin if wee Jimmy's goin

[Slick]

JM, we are open to new members of the Scotland Supporters Club if you prefer our home? Biffer can send through details and costs.

[JM2K6]

JM, we are open to new members of the Scotland Supporters Club if you prefer our home? Biffer can send through details and costs.

Yeah I realised earlier that this isn't the Lions thread, sorry

[Slick]

JM, we are open to new members of the Scotland Supporters Club if you prefer our home? Biffer can send through details and costs.

Yeah I realised earlier that this isn't the Lions thread, sorry

[Yr Alban]

Not sure how big a money-spinner the Japan game may be if the ground will be 25% full.

[Big D]

am no goin if wee Jimmy's goin

Wise move. He's a renegade on the beers.

[Biffer]

JM, we are open to new members of the Scotland Supporters Club if you prefer our home? Biffer can send through details and costs.

Yeah I realised earlier that this isn't the Lions thread, sorry

Personal cheque to me for £10k should do it. £8k if it’s unmarked non sequential notes.

[clydecloggie]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

[JM2K6]

JM, we are open to new members of the Scotland Supporters Club if you prefer our home? Biffer can send through details and costs.

Yeah I realised earlier that this isn't the Lions thread, sorry

Personal cheque to me for £10k should do it. £8k if it’s unmarked non sequential notes.

Would you accept a slightly stained poster of Chris Robshaw?

[Slick]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

"Worst city"

[Biffer]

Yeah I realised earlier that this isn't the Lions thread, sorry

Personal cheque to me for £10k should do it. £8k if it’s unmarked non sequential notes.

Would you accept a slightly stained poster of Chris Robshaw?

Not if it's stained with what I think you've stained it with.

[Biffer]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

"Worst city"

Something to be fucking proud of. It also doesn't reflect the imaginative level of swearing the we produce up here. We're very creative in our profanity.

[JM2K6]

Personal cheque to me for £10k should do it. £8k if it’s unmarked non sequential notes.

Would you accept a slightly stained poster of Chris Robshaw?

Not if it's stained with what I think you've stained it with.

Picky bastard

[Yr Alban]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

Must be nice for Glasgow to place above Edinburgh in something.

(Yes, I know, I wasn’t talking about rugby!)

[clydecloggie]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

Must be nice for Glasgow to place above Edinburgh in something.

(Yes, I know, I wasn’t talking about rugby!)

I'm shocked at how high Edinburgh is in that list. I wouldn't have thought the Home Counties accent of its inhabitants caters for that much colourful language.

[Slick]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

Must be nice for Glasgow to place above Edinburgh in something.

(Yes, I know, I wasn’t talking about rugby!)

I'm shocked at how high Edinburgh is in that list. I wouldn't have thought the Home Counties accent of its inhabitants caters for that much colourful language.

Fuck awfff

[Biffer]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

Must be nice for Glasgow to place above Edinburgh in something.

(Yes, I know, I wasn’t talking about rugby!)

I'm shocked at how high Edinburgh is in that list. I wouldn't have thought the Home Counties accent of its inhabitants caters for that much colourful language.

Having lived in Edinburgh for twenty plus years, I love the way it confuses people.

[Begbie]

Probably belongs in the entertaining pictures thread but fuck that. Those cunts wouldn't appreciate it like we can.

Feeling so proud, even though it's the soap dodgers at number one.

[Tichtheid]

There’s a great line in Educating Rita where she claims posh folk are the worst for swearing, “It’s all ‘pass the foking pheasant’ with that lot”