Five eyes/China/NZ

[Ymx]

What’s the deal here?

Five Eyes down to four on China as New Zealand pursues trade

April 19 2021, The Times

New Zealand has broken with Anglophone allies over using the “Five Eyes” intelligence-sharing network to confront China, reversing an agreement to expand the network’s remit.

Nanaia Mahuta, the foreign minister, declared that New Zealand was “uncomfortable” with pressuring China and wanted to pursue its own bilateral relationship.
The network, a Cold War-era partnership to share intelligence, took a new turn last year when it began issuing statements as a single entity, including condemning China’s human rights record.

Last May defence ministers from Britain, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand endorsed an expanded role with a public commitment not only to meet shared security challenges but “to advance their shared values of democracy, freedom and respect for human rights”.

Mahuta, 50, said she had informed the other Five Eyes members of New Zealand’s changed position.

“It’s a matter that we have raised with Five Eyes partners, that we are uncomfortable with expanding the remit of the Five Eyes relationship, that we would much rather prefer looking for multilateral opportunities to express our interests on a number of issues,” she said.

In November China condemned the Five Eyes network for criticising its suppression of the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong.

Zhao Lijian, the spokesman for China’s foreign minister, said: “No matter if they have five eyes or ten eyes, as soon as they dare to harm China’s sovereignty, security or development interests, they should be careful lest their eyes be poked blind.”

Mahuta said that New Zealand would “not invoke the Five Eyes as the first point of contact on messaging out on a range of issues that really exist outside the remit of Five Eyes”, signalling the country’s desire to chart its own relationship with its largest trading partner.

She symbolised the China-New Zealand relationship as one between a “dragon and taniwha”, a serpent-like creature from Maori myth.

“I see the taniwha and the dragon as symbols of the strength of our particular customs, traditions and values, that aren’t always the same, but need to be maintained and respected,” she said. “And on that virtue we have together developed the mature relationship we have today.”

Efforts to recast the diplomatic architecture of the Five Eyes were pushed by Britain as it prepared to leave the European Union. Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, spoke of the alliance as a means to co-ordinate sanctions. Australia, meanwhile, is in the middle of a trade war with China, which responded to criticism of its conduct during the pandemic with restrictions on goods.
A recent US statement announcing new sanctions against Chinese officials implicated in human rights abuses in Xinjiang mistakenly included Australia in the list of countries imposing them. Australia and New Zealand issued a separate statement expressing their concern about China’s actions without announcing sanctions of their own.

The EU has also hardened its position on China, joining in the sanctions over Xinjiang. Yesterday foreign ministers announced an initiative to step up the bloc’s influence in the Indo-Pacific region, while insisting its moves were not “anti-China”.

[Ymx]

China pressed moralistic NZ with trade threats and it buckled and reversed its opinion?

How’s the NZ media trying to portray it?

[Ymx]

An earlier piece on stuff

Is it time to sell our seat on Five Eyes?
Wayne Brown
OPINION: New Zealand business is watching on in horror as China slams Australian exporters with punitive duties on nearly all their exports bar Iron Ore, and that could be added yet.

Could this happen here?

Given our part in the Five Eyes intelligence network – or, as the Aussies call it, Four Eyes and a blink, referring to New Zealand’s tiny defence capability – it is a real possibility and raises questions about our membership, the main benefit of which is access to US intelligence.


CHINATOPIX VIA AP
Australian wine is among the exports cracked down on by China as it steps up the pressure in a bitter diplomatic conflict over coronavirus, territorial disputes and other irritants. (Chinatopix via AP)
Remember these are the guys who reckoned Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

Is it worth it?

READ MORE:
* Five Eyes spy-alliance countries to 'co-ordinate' Covid-19 economic response
* Coronavirus: Pandemic reshapes national security agenda
* NZ spy agencies cleared of torture with no direct involvement in Afghanistan incidents

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What does a guy from a Northland village know about any of this? Well I’ve been a leadership regular at Washington’s Georgetown University, their top foreign affairs school.

I’ve dined with former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and know her narrow world view consisting of the USA, European Union and the Middle East, no mention of China, India or Brazil.

I’ve been briefed by Homeland Security in Pentagon Place about the risks of the fuel carrying rail tunnel passing under the Washington seats of government, I’ve attended briefings from the head of their National Intelligence Committee whose answer to the question, “what is the most populous Islamic country” was Saudi Arabia, when it is clearly Indonesia, bringing responses from US attendees telling me not to ask trick questions.

I’ve dined at the head offices of Nokia in Helsinki and Huawei in Shenzhen, introduced their founder to our Prime Minister in Beijing and attended lunch celebrating our free trade agreement with China in the Great Hall in Tianamen Square.


Lawrence Smith/Stuff
Mayors who aren’t in it for reelection or the money are more likely to make bold decisions, writes Wayne Brown.
On top of that, for a while I was part owner of a newspaper in St Petersburg in Russia. So I reckon I’ve got credibility to offer my opinion.

My big worry is that our officials at the Government Communications Security Bureau and New Zealand Defence Force will be wined and dined by the Americans, and they won’t want to give up this unearned status. They will advise our government just how important it is to stay in the Five Eyes, when we really should sell our seat there to our old enemy, Japan, and pursue an independent role free of commitment to either China or America.

We have fought alongside the USA in most of their wars but they cut us out for decades over the nuclear ships issue and we have long-term goodwill in China thanks to Rewi Alley, the New Zealand-born writer who joined chairman Mao Tse Tong’s great March. We then followed up with our Free Trade Agreement.

Do we really care about the Spratly Islands? Do we really need to make a fuss over Uighur rights in China when we don’t do the same over US Police shooting black citizens?

Trade sanctions of the type Australia is facing are a weapon used by both USA and China.

So let’s have a debate on whether we need Five Eyes, or whether it’s time for us to trade on independently.

[Sandstorm]

Please take this crap to the Other Place. There’s already a thread about it and Dozy will welcome you with endless lies and bollocks.

[Hugo]

My big worry is that our officials at the Government Communications Security Bureau and New Zealand Defence Force will be wined and dined by the Americans, and they won’t want to give up this unearned status. They will advise our government just how important it is to stay in the Five Eyes, when we really should sell our seat there to our old enemy, Japan, and pursue an independent role free of commitment to either China or America.

That would be uneccessary in my opinion because the Japanese are already in the Quad with India, the US and Australia which I think exists for the purpose of containing China.

Do we really care about the Spratly Islands? Do we really need to make a fuss over Uighur rights in China when we don’t do the same over US Police shooting black citizens?

It's a great point. The west has spent twenty years bombing Muslim countries and now all of a sudden the welfare of Muslims is paramount because it is the Chinese that are the culprits.

The other interesting double standard is how the US wants to contain both Russia and China by allying with their neighbours but imagine what the American response would be if China or Russia did the same thing in reverse and created military alliances with Mexico or Canada.

[Ymx]

Please take this crap to the Other Place. There’s already a thread about it and Dozy will welcome you with endless lies and bollocks.

Well, apologies, I haven’t read the other site.

I was quite interested in how the relative media were portraying this and thoughts as such.

I’d hope it might not become whatever it was o the other site.

[FalseBayFC]

Well done New Xiland. Must have been the pressure from the estate agent lobby.

[tc27]

Profoundly disappointing and a real lack of solidarity with Australia upon which NZ relies on for its defence.

[Slick]

Well done New Xiland. Must have been the pressure from the estate agent lobby.

Hadn't heard that before

[Paddington Bear]

Shameless calculation from NZ. They can cozy up to China knowing if they came under any real threat Australia, the UK and most likely the US would help them out anyway. Very sad to see.

[Lemoentjie]

We can take their place

[Torquemada 1420]

All Blacks to tour Uyghur next year then.

[Uncle fester]

Interesting that NZ folded so quickly in the face of Chinese threats.

[Green light echo]

We can take their place

You Saffers really are some of the most deluded people. SA joining five eyes.

You would have qualify as a functioning first world nation.

You don't.

[Slick]

All Blacks to tour Uyghur next year then.

[Lemoentjie]

We can take their place

You Saffers really are some of the most deluded people. SA joining five eyes.

You would have qualify as a functioning first world nation.

You don't.

It was a joke

[average joe]

We're a member of BRICS, no fokon way we'll join Five eyes. The Chinese would have our balls in a vicegrip faster than you can say "blockade"

[stunt_cunt]

Five eyes for who.

There's no benefit in New Zealand aligning to the rhetoric and sledgehammer diplomacy of the Yanks or Brits. Look at the dumb shit they do around the world.
What sort of benefit does New Zealand get from intelligence kicked up by a couple nations that have a reputation for being hypocritical lying bullies?

If it's a spy agency, shut the fuck up and go about spying in the background.

I the Brits, Australia, Canada, and the USA want to go about carrying on playing cold-war with Russia and China then good on them, seeya!

[Hugo]

Five eyes for who.

There's no benefit in New Zealand aligning to the rhetoric and sledgehammer diplomacy of the Yanks or Brits. Look at the dumb shit they do around the world.
What sort of benefit does New Zealand get from intelligence kicked up by a couple nations that have a reputation for being hypocritical lying bullies?

If it's a spy agency, shut the fuck up and go about spying in the background.

I the Brits, Australia, Canada, and the USA want to go about carrying on playing cold-war with Russia and China then good on them, seeya!

Agreed, it is political theatre.

Tory MP Bob Seely savaged the stance taken by Ardern, saying she was “in a hell of an ethical mess”.
“A prime minister who virtue signals whilst crudely sucking up to China whilst backing out of the Five Eyes agreement, which I think is an appallingly, appallingly short-sighted thing to be doing,” he said.

Appealing for ethical consistency is pretty silly when you arm and back the Saudis and Israel yet constantly virtue signal about being supporters of human rights and democracy.

[tc27]

Five eyes for who.

There's no benefit in New Zealand aligning to the rhetoric and sledgehammer diplomacy of the Yanks or Brits. Look at the dumb shit they do around the world.
What sort of benefit does New Zealand get from intelligence kicked up by a couple nations that have a reputation for being hypocritical lying bullies?

If it's a spy agency, shut the fuck up and go about spying in the background.

I the Brits, Australia, Canada, and the USA want to go about carrying on playing cold-war with Russia and China then good on them, seeya!

I think this is a pretty dumb sentiment - the other 5E members are by no means perfect but refusing to confront China now and weakening the alliance with the US and Australia is the ultimate short term declinist strategy for a country in NZ's position. Theirs simply no way NZ will be better off in a pacific dominated by China than it is now...we have seen how China treats its client/vassal states.

Also saying stuff like 'we respect different views on human rights' to a country that's carrying out a genocide within its own borders is just pathetic.

[Muttonbird]

Interesting that NZ folded so quickly in the face of Chinese threats.

New Zealand hasn't folded. Rather, they have held their line. It's the others getting hysterical over China, and wanting to politicise an intelligence agency.

[Muttonbird]

Five eyes for who.

There's no benefit in New Zealand aligning to the rhetoric and sledgehammer diplomacy of the Yanks or Brits. Look at the dumb shit they do around the world.
What sort of benefit does New Zealand get from intelligence kicked up by a couple nations that have a reputation for being hypocritical lying bullies?

If it's a spy agency, shut the fuck up and go about spying in the background.

I the Brits, Australia, Canada, and the USA want to go about carrying on playing cold-war with Russia and China then good on them, seeya!

I think this is a pretty dumb sentiment - the other 5E members are by no means perfect but refusing to confront China now and weakening the alliance with the US and Australia is the ultimate short term declinist strategy for a country in NZ's position. Theirs simply no way NZ will be better off in a pacific dominated by China than it is now...we have seen how China treats its client/vassal states.

Also saying stuff like 'we respect different views on human rights' to a country that's carrying out a genocide within its own borders is just pathetic.

Why the sudden concern about human rights in China? They haven't changed one bit and the West have quite happily turned a blind eye to it for decades now, getting mega rich of China's human rights abuses.

Suddenly it's all a big issue. That's the real story.

[Hugo]

Why the sudden concern about human rights in China? They haven't changed one bit and the West have quite happily turned a blind eye to it for decades now, getting mega rich of China's human rights abuses.

Suddenly it's all a big issue. That's the real story.

That's the thing isn't it. The west know China is an authoritarian, one party communist state but nevertheless availed itself of cheap Chinese labour. None of this was a problem for decades and now with a deft pivot in foreign policy China's human rights abuses are a matter of conscience.

It's pretty audacious to criticise New Zealand's approach when it is actually the most consistent of the lot!

[Ymx]

Interesting that NZ folded so quickly in the face of Chinese threats.

New Zealand hasn't folded. Rather, they have held their line. It's the others getting hysterical over China, and wanting to politicise an intelligence agency.

Well, they did.

They agreed to the plan.

Saw what happened to Australia when they poked China.

Folded (and the protecting of Islamic people suddenly became less important to enforce for them )

Last May defence ministers from Britain, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand endorsed an expanded role with a public commitment not only to meet shared security challenges but “to advance their shared values of democracy, freedom and respect for human rights”.

Mahuta, 50, said she had informed the other Five Eyes members of New Zealand’s changed position.

[Ymx]

I think Sandy is right, perhaps shouldn’t have started this.

But perhaps unlike PR, we can discuss it without personal abuse.

[Raggs]

So because they've ignored an atrocity for decades it's wrong to start calling them out over it now?

What sort of fucked up logic is that??? Who the hell cares why they're doing the right thing now instead of then, maybe there's now a few more half decent humans in there?

Seriously guys, if you think that's a good argument from any standpoint but a racist one, give yourselves an uppercut.

[Ymx]

What’s racist?

Not even sure what you mean.

I’ll probably not give myself an uppercut if was directed at me.

[Raggs]

What’s racist?

Not even sure what you mean.

I’ll probably not give myself an uppercut if was directed at me.

Don't think you were one of those saying that China's atrocities should continue to be ignored, just because they were ignored before. Muttonbird and Hugo are the two that jump out.

[Ymx]

Aha. Follow you now.

[Uncle fester]

Five eyes for who.

There's no benefit in New Zealand aligning to the rhetoric and sledgehammer diplomacy of the Yanks or Brits. Look at the dumb shit they do around the world.
What sort of benefit does New Zealand get from intelligence kicked up by a couple nations that have a reputation for being hypocritical lying bullies?

If it's a spy agency, shut the fuck up and go about spying in the background.

I the Brits, Australia, Canada, and the USA want to go about carrying on playing cold-war with Russia and China then good on them, seeya!

I think this is a pretty dumb sentiment - the other 5E members are by no means perfect but refusing to confront China now and weakening the alliance with the US and Australia is the ultimate short term declinist strategy for a country in NZ's position. Theirs simply no way NZ will be better off in a pacific dominated by China than it is now...we have seen how China treats its client/vassal states.

Also saying stuff like 'we respect different views on human rights' to a country that's carrying out a genocide within its own borders is just pathetic.

This is it.
The move is modern day appeasement.

It'll sort itself out when Xi Jinping dies as he's eliminated pathways to a peaceful transition of power.

[Muttonbird]

What’s racist?

Not even sure what you mean.

I’ll probably not give myself an uppercut if was directed at me.

Don't think you were one of those saying that China's atrocities should continue to be ignored, just because they were ignored before. Muttonbird and Hugo are the two that jump out.

Not saying human rights issues shouldn't be addressed in China but the silence from some has been deafening for some decades now. Good to see you finally on board.

[Ymx]

Odd messaging.

Now trying to change the tone and pretend they’re not a Chinese puppet.

New Zealand’s differences with China becoming ‘harder to reconcile’, Jacinda Ardern says

Prime minister has been coming under pressure from allies to take a tougher approach towards country’s largest trading partner

Tess McClure in Christchurch

New Zealand’s differences with China are becoming “harder to reconcile,” the prime minister Jacinda Ardern has said, as she called on China “to act in the world in ways that are consistent with its responsibilities as a growing power”.

Ardern’s comments were made as New Zealand’s government comes under increasing pressure, both internally and from international allies, to take a firmer stance on concerns over human rights abuses of Uyghur people in China’s Xinjiang province. Last week, the Act party presented a motion for New Zealand’s parliament to debate whether the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang constitutes genocide – a motion that Labour will discuss this week.

Australia examines modern slavery laws amid concerns over products linked to Uyghur abuse

“Managing the relationship is not always going to be easy and there can be no guarantees,” Ardern said in her speech to the China Business Summit on Monday. “We need to acknowledge that there are some things on which China and New Zealand do not, cannot, and will not agree.”

But it’s a bit bloody weak. On concentration camps, they will agree to disagree.

Since November 2020, the value of exports to China alone has been greater than New Zealand’s next four largest trading partners – Australia, the US, UK, and Japan – combined. When Australia took a tougher stance on China, the country retaliated with tariffs, import restrictions and by warning its citizens not to travel to Australia.

[Muttonbird]

Odd messaging.

Now trying to change the tone and pretend they’re not a Chinese puppet.

New Zealand’s differences with China becoming ‘harder to reconcile’, Jacinda Ardern says

Prime minister has been coming under pressure from allies to take a tougher approach towards country’s largest trading partner

Tess McClure in Christchurch

New Zealand’s differences with China are becoming “harder to reconcile,” the prime minister Jacinda Ardern has said, as she called on China “to act in the world in ways that are consistent with its responsibilities as a growing power”.

Ardern’s comments were made as New Zealand’s government comes under increasing pressure, both internally and from international allies, to take a firmer stance on concerns over human rights abuses of Uyghur people in China’s Xinjiang province. Last week, the Act party presented a motion for New Zealand’s parliament to debate whether the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang constitutes genocide – a motion that Labour will discuss this week.

Australia examines modern slavery laws amid concerns over products linked to Uyghur abuse

“Managing the relationship is not always going to be easy and there can be no guarantees,” Ardern said in her speech to the China Business Summit on Monday. “We need to acknowledge that there are some things on which China and New Zealand do not, cannot, and will not agree.”

But it’s a bit bloody weak. On concentration camps, they will agree to disagree.

Since November 2020, the value of exports to China alone has been greater than New Zealand’s next four largest trading partners – Australia, the US, UK, and Japan – combined. When Australia took a tougher stance on China, the country retaliated with tariffs, import restrictions and by warning its citizens not to travel to Australia.

It's called diplomacy. We're quite big on it in these parts.

[Hugo]

If you have an interest in US-China relations this is probably worth some of your time, it is an analysis of the differences between Trump and Bidens policies toward China:



What I personally find interesting is the way that Biden is using the threat that China poses to American hegemony as a call to action so that the "US can win the 21st century". You could probably make an argument that the end of the cold war left the US devoid of a central, unifying national project that gave Americans a reason to work hard, collaborate and make their society better.

It serves Bidens purpose to portray Chinas threat to the US as existential so that he can garner support for infrastructure projects and investments in education and such.

[Ymx]

Odd messaging.

Now trying to change the tone and pretend they’re not a Chinese puppet.

New Zealand’s differences with China becoming ‘harder to reconcile’, Jacinda Ardern says

Prime minister has been coming under pressure from allies to take a tougher approach towards country’s largest trading partner

Tess McClure in Christchurch

New Zealand’s differences with China are becoming “harder to reconcile,” the prime minister Jacinda Ardern has said, as she called on China “to act in the world in ways that are consistent with its responsibilities as a growing power”.

Ardern’s comments were made as New Zealand’s government comes under increasing pressure, both internally and from international allies, to take a firmer stance on concerns over human rights abuses of Uyghur people in China’s Xinjiang province. Last week, the Act party presented a motion for New Zealand’s parliament to debate whether the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang constitutes genocide – a motion that Labour will discuss this week.

Australia examines modern slavery laws amid concerns over products linked to Uyghur abuse

“Managing the relationship is not always going to be easy and there can be no guarantees,” Ardern said in her speech to the China Business Summit on Monday. “We need to acknowledge that there are some things on which China and New Zealand do not, cannot, and will not agree.”

But it’s a bit bloody weak. On concentration camps, they will agree to disagree.

Since November 2020, the value of exports to China alone has been greater than New Zealand’s next four largest trading partners – Australia, the US, UK, and Japan – combined. When Australia took a tougher stance on China, the country retaliated with tariffs, import restrictions and by warning its citizens not to travel to Australia.

It's called diplomacy. We're quite big on it in these parts.

You’re in full control

[Paddington Bear]

If you have an interest in US-China relations this is probably worth some of your time, it is an analysis of the differences between Trump and Bidens policies toward China:



What I personally find interesting is the way that Biden is using the threat that China poses to American hegemony as a call to action so that the "US can win the 21st century". You could probably make an argument that the end of the cold war left the US devoid of a central, unifying national project that gave Americans a reason to work hard, collaborate and make their society better.

It serves Bidens purpose to portray Chinas threat to the US as existential so that he can garner support for infrastructure projects and investments in education and such.

It's an interesting one. The USSR was an existential threat to the West given it's preponderance of nuclear weapons and it's likely willingness to use them. Not convinced the same applies to China, however they are much more a 'peer' of the US. Their population is enormous, their economy is stronger than the USSR's, their international reach is arguably greater, and they can genuinely contest command of the seas (in this case the Pacific and to an extent the Indian Ocean) with the US, which the Soviets never could.

[Ymx]

Why don’t NZ want to condemn China you ask?

[Enzedder]

Unanimous vote in NZ parliament yesterday that NZ is gravely concerned about severe human rights abuses in China.

I wish we could promote something in world politics about human rights abuses in other countries too.

[Ymx]

Feels very reactionary. On the back of the vote, what will NZ do about it? Assume there will be no pressure by trade. Or did they do it to appease the worlds eyes, and probably do nothing and hope the spotlight just goes away.

[stunt_cunt]

Unanimous vote in NZ parliament yesterday that NZ is gravely concerned about severe human rights abuses in China.

I wish we could promote something in world politics about human rights abuses in other countries too.

Like Pakistan, India, Indonesia, practically the entire Middle East, Africa etc etc.

I hate to think what the yanks would do if a bunch of seperatist Muslims decided they wanted autonomy in New York or Washington. They've bombed the shit out of Muslim countries for the past two decades because they don't like Muslims doing Muslim shit in their own countries. And quite happy to turn the cheek when some Saudi beheads his wife in the main road with a sword, or any number of human rights violations in keeping SE Asian slaves vacuuming their apartments and doing laundry 7 days a week.

I don't understand why people don't see this for what it is. Western nations upset the Chinese have outgrown their place as the world's slaves to produce products to slap a big profit on when peddling the products to their own consumers.

Now China has all the power in production and the income from it, everyone is scrambling to claw it back and will throw up any bogeyman to shine the spotlight away from their own hegemony in subjugation.