Official Lions selection, moaning and bitching thread

[GogLais]

I might have said it already but I thought it was dreadful that a well-known and respected organ of the press let John Dawes's death pass without comment, especially in a Lions year.

[Slick]

I might have said it already but I thought it was dreadful that a well-known and respected organ of the press let John Dawes's death pass without comment, especially in a Lions year.

who would that be?

[Tichtheid]

I just read an article where a "journalist" yet again shows he has no understanding of the sport he makes a living off.

The lack of understanding of power and strength-to-weight ratios versus mass and height is just laughable. In the olden days of fat boys rolling over smaller lads and then going for a double dozen pints after the game this is an understandable viewpoint.

To still have this illusion when the game has been professional for over 25 years makes that "journalist" a laughing stock.

I don't read his columns very often, a coupe of times a year, but it seems to be the same old stuff every time I do.

You might ask why I bother, but it's a paper that seems to be respected for reasons that escape me and I think that watching the modern game might change one's point of view.

I was mistaken on that.

Was this the same journalist who has spent the best part of 10 years writing clickbait and manufacturing controversy who wrote another article in the same paper telling us how awful everyone else in the world was for not rallying round the Lions whatever the circumstances?

Quite possibly, like I say I don't read it very often, I was struck by the anti-Scottish venom in an article more than ten years ago and I haven't felt the need to read many more pieces from him.

Someone on another bored coined the term Lionsplaining for those telling us why we should support the Lions when we had no players in the sides.

[JM2K6]

James Ryan today proved once and for all that he should be nowhere near the Lions squad. A huge fall in form aided by the fact he is just too bloody lightweight.

I've never really understood the hype tbh and on the evidence of the last couple of seasons, there's no real case for him going.

Has been a bit off form since coming back from injury. Think he was rushed back tbh. Picked up a bit in latter end of 6n but he was in shop window today and didn't do his chances any good. Workrate still good but impact not up to scratch.

I'd be picking Henderson over Ryan myself. And Beirne obviously.

Ryan was a classy player when he first showed up and I think it was reasonable to assume he would kick on. But at this point it's also reasonable to ask what it is he actually offers to a team at the moment. Henderson and Beirne have big impact, and compared to his opponents in other teams it's difficult to see what he does that they don't do better. Obviously I don't watch him anywhere near as much as Pro 12 fans would, but I don't think I've seen him give the sort of match-defining performances that you'd get from the other big names.

[GogLais]

I might have said it already but I thought it was dreadful that a well-known and respected organ of the press let John Dawes's death pass without comment, especially in a Lions year.

who would that be?

Some Journalist.

[dpedin]

What happened to Underhill yesterday? Pretty anonymous and got subbed after 55mins. Not sure he did his Lions selection any good after that display. Did he pick up an injury?

Hah, bloke can't win. Misses the 6N with an injury so isn't tarred with the brush of England's failures but then his lack of rugby counts against him. He's barely played this year, just getting some matches under his belt. Still won a good turnover and made a ton of tackles, and some pretty heavy carrying too - he made more metres and more tackles than "nailed on Lion" Faletau managed in the full 80.

Genuinely think it would be ridiculous if someone like Underhill misses out - a guy who's been a dominant force in international rugby for a few years now - because he had a reasonably quiet game for shithouse Bath. If Gatland doesn't think that he's one of the top available flankers he's mad. Especially as he has form for picking players who are actually still injured to tour. But I don't think Gatland is quite so mad as to ignore years of performances :)

So is the answer to my question is that he is coming back from injury and still lacking full match fitness?

I thought Jones has previously told him he isn't the 'right fit' for the English back 3 so wouldn't have appeared in the 6Ns anyway? Measuring his performance against that of Faletau isn't really an accurate measure of his performance really - I thought the much vaunted Bath back row came of a poor 2nd best against the Montpellier back row. Mercer was the only one to come away with a pass mark.

Agree with your assessment of Bath's performance though! With the squad they have they should be doing a lot better but their coaching and tactics really seem to have them fecked up good and proper. Hooper really doesn't have it as a coach at this level, as he has amply shown this year. They need to get rid of him.

[JM2K6]

Jones said it would be awkward to get Underhill back in the 6N squad after he played his comeback game near the end of the 6N, which is entirely reasonable given lack of fitness, the changes that can be made, and the bubble situation. He's been one of Eddie's star players.

[Uncle fester]

I've never really understood the hype tbh and on the evidence of the last couple of seasons, there's no real case for him going.

Has been a bit off form since coming back from injury. Think he was rushed back tbh. Picked up a bit in latter end of 6n but he was in shop window today and didn't do his chances any good. Workrate still good but impact not up to scratch.

I'd be picking Henderson over Ryan myself. And Beirne obviously.

Ryan was a classy player when he first showed up and I think it was reasonable to assume he would kick on. But at this point it's also reasonable to ask what it is he actually offers to a team at the moment. Henderson and Beirne have big impact, and compared to his opponents in other teams it's difficult to see what he does that they don't do better. Obviously I don't watch him anywhere near as much as Pro 12 fans would, but I don't think I've seen him give the sort of match-defining performances that you'd get from the other big names.

Yeah, I wouldn't pick him right now. If he goes, it'll be because another player hasn't quite hit the mark.

At this point in his career, you'd be expecting him to be a cornerstone of the Irish pack and it hasn't quite gone that way. Probably down to the injury that he came back from very quickly.

[Slick]

I might have said it already but I thought it was dreadful that a well-known and respected organ of the press let John Dawes's death pass without comment, especially in a Lions year.

who would that be?

Some Journalist.

If we are talking Jones, in fairness, he did do a piece on Dawes

[GogLais]

who would that be?

Some Journalist.

If we are talking Jones, in fairness, he did do a piece on Dawes

In the Sports section of the ST? It’s just that I made a point of carefully looking through it to check at the time.

[GogLais]

Ok, I owe him at least half an apology then, it was in The Times on a Saturday, which I don’t usually get. I’m still surprised Dawes’s death didn’t seem to be mentioned in the Sunday Times though. I guess they regard them as effectively the same paper.

[Big D]

Hah, bloke can't win. Misses the 6N with an injury so isn't tarred with the brush of England's failures but then his lack of rugby counts against him. He's barely played this year, just getting some matches under his belt. Still won a good turnover and made a ton of tackles, and some pretty heavy carrying too - he made more metres and more tackles than "nailed on Lion" Faletau managed in the full 80.

Genuinely think it would be ridiculous if someone like Underhill misses out - a guy who's been a dominant force in international rugby for a few years now - because he had a reasonably quiet game for shithouse Bath. If Gatland doesn't think that he's one of the top available flankers he's mad. Especially as he has form for picking players who are actually still injured to tour. But I don't think Gatland is quite so mad as to ignore years of performances :)

I'd take Underhill but on the flank there are some very useful players going to miss out. Probably the most competitive position in a positive sense both to make the tour and to get the test shirts.

[FalseBayFC]

Hah, bloke can't win. Misses the 6N with an injury so isn't tarred with the brush of England's failures but then his lack of rugby counts against him. He's barely played this year, just getting some matches under his belt. Still won a good turnover and made a ton of tackles, and some pretty heavy carrying too - he made more metres and more tackles than "nailed on Lion" Faletau managed in the full 80.

Genuinely think it would be ridiculous if someone like Underhill misses out - a guy who's been a dominant force in international rugby for a few years now - because he had a reasonably quiet game for shithouse Bath. If Gatland doesn't think that he's one of the top available flankers he's mad. Especially as he has form for picking players who are actually still injured to tour. But I don't think Gatland is quite so mad as to ignore years of performances :)

I'd take Underhill but on the flank there are some very useful players going to miss out. Probably the most competitive position in a positive sense both to make the tour and to get the test shirts.

Hard fields and two tests at altitude will make a fast loose forward with a big engine very useful. But you've already got Curry and Hamish Watson who imo are ahead of Underhill in the fight for the openside berth. One of my concerns about the Springbok team is that the loose trio of Vermeulen, Kolisi and PSDT is not the fastest. Tom Curry will be lethal on the fast hard grounds. I'm hoping that forward subs Marx, Franco Mostert and possibly Van Staden will be able to counter him.

[JM2K6]

Curry frequently plays 6 with Underhill 7. The Lions don't have loads of brilliant blindsides available, either.

[FalseBayFC]

Curry frequently plays 6 with Underhill 7. The Lions don't have loads of brilliant blindsides available, either.

Yeah but a Curry, Underhill, Faletau loose trio will leave the lineout a little vulnerable I should think.

[SaintK]

Guardian reporting that Marcus Smith is in the frame and received a "save the date" letter

Marcus Smith has emerged as a shock potential “bolter” for the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, the Guardian understands.
The 22-year-old fly-half has been in fine form for Harlequins this season and it is believed he is among the group of more than 50 players to have received a letter sounding him out about his potential availability this summer.

[JM2K6]

Curry frequently plays 6 with Underhill 7. The Lions don't have loads of brilliant blindsides available, either.

Yeah but a Curry, Underhill, Faletau loose trio will leave the lineout a little vulnerable I should think.

Curry and Faletau take a lot of ball, no? The only lineout blindside options I can think of for the Lions are locks, or maybe Ritchie. Anyway it's kinda meaningless, I agree that the test back row will have to be considered in context and with tour form in mind, I'm mostly concerned with tour selection right now.

[Slick]

Guardian reporting that Marcus Smith is in the frame and received a "save the date" letter

Marcus Smith has emerged as a shock potential “bolter” for the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, the Guardian understands.
The 22-year-old fly-half has been in fine form for Harlequins this season and it is believed he is among the group of more than 50 players to have received a letter sounding him out about his potential availability this summer.

Can't see it at all. Would presumably mean they think Sexton is goooooooone and Finn isn't a realistic option.

[sockwithaticket]

That would be a brilliant selection. Partly because Smith is an absolute belter of a fly half who should have a long international future ahead of him if Eddie actually nuts up and picks the guy for England, but also because it is a fairly left field pick and would yield a fair amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth from fans of all persuasions. Extra column inches from the English press if he were to travel ahead of Farrell.

In reality, the number of top class, in form fly halves isn't that long, which puts him in the conversation, but I doubt he'd be anything other than a back up told to stay ready in case a couple of injuries occur.

[FalseBayFC]

Curry frequently plays 6 with Underhill 7. The Lions don't have loads of brilliant blindsides available, either.

Yeah but a Curry, Underhill, Faletau loose trio will leave the lineout a little vulnerable I should think.

Curry and Faletau take a lot of ball, no? The only lineout blindside options I can think of for the Lions are locks, or maybe Ritchie. Anyway it's kinda meaningless, I agree that the test back row will have to be considered in context and with tour form in mind, I'm mostly concerned with tour selection right now.

I've only seen a highlights package of Tadgh Beirne. Do his Beast Mode videos fairly represent his value? I see he is talked about as a possible Lions no. 6.

[SaintK]

Guardian reporting that Marcus Smith is in the frame and received a "save the date" letter

Marcus Smith has emerged as a shock potential “bolter” for the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, the Guardian understands.
The 22-year-old fly-half has been in fine form for Harlequins this season and it is believed he is among the group of more than 50 players to have received a letter sounding him out about his potential availability this summer.

Can't see it at all. Would presumably mean they think Sexton is goooooooone and Finn isn't a realistic option.

Sexton shouldn't tour. The head injury/concussion thing is happening far too regularly

[SaintK]

Yeah but a Curry, Underhill, Faletau loose trio will leave the lineout a little vulnerable I should think.

Curry and Faletau take a lot of ball, no? The only lineout blindside options I can think of for the Lions are locks, or maybe Ritchie. Anyway it's kinda meaningless, I agree that the test back row will have to be considered in context and with tour form in mind, I'm mostly concerned with tour selection right now.

I've only seen a highlights package of Tadgh Beirne. Do his Beast Mode videos fairly represent his value? I see he is talked about as a possible Lions no. 6.

Beirne is very good value and should definitely tour. I could see him doing the Courtney Lawes 5/6 role quite easily

[sockwithaticket]

Guardian reporting that Marcus Smith is in the frame and received a "save the date" letter

Can't see it at all. Would presumably mean they think Sexton is goooooooone and Finn isn't a realistic option.

Sexton shouldn't tour. The head injury/concussion thing is happening far too regularly

He's also pretty injury prone in general it feels like. Were I in Gatland's shoes I wouldn't be taking anyone who seems to fairly regularly spend time on the sidelines (Ringrose and Underhill spring to mind), to play sides from perhaps the most physical nation in the sport over a period of weeks.

[FalseBayFC]

Can't see it at all. Would presumably mean they think Sexton is goooooooone and Finn isn't a realistic option.

Sexton shouldn't tour. The head injury/concussion thing is happening far too regularly

He's also pretty injury prone in general it feels like. Were I in Gatland's shoes I wouldn't be taking anyone who seems to fairly regularly spend time on the sidelines (Ringrose and Underhill spring to mind), to play sides from perhaps the most physical nation in the sport over a period of weeks.

I would be more afraid of a Care, Ford, Farrell combo than any other tbqh. From a Bok perspective that is. Experienced, good defenders and should know each other's style.

Finn Russell or Marcus Smith are not who I'd want running a Lions backline in a high pressure environnent. Henshaw outside Farrell would really help to counter the threat of De Allende, Vermeulen and PSDT trucking it up the middle.

And add on quick wings. Watson for one and I would choose May as left wing back up. Rees Zammit and Liam Williams on the other side. Definitely Hogg at fullback. On the hard fields at high altitude you'll want good kick chasers and sweepers.

[JM2K6]

Yeah but a Curry, Underhill, Faletau loose trio will leave the lineout a little vulnerable I should think.

Curry and Faletau take a lot of ball, no? The only lineout blindside options I can think of for the Lions are locks, or maybe Ritchie. Anyway it's kinda meaningless, I agree that the test back row will have to be considered in context and with tour form in mind, I'm mostly concerned with tour selection right now.

I've only seen a highlights package of Tadgh Beirne. Do his Beast Mode videos fairly represent his value? I see he is talked about as a possible Lions no. 6.

He's a lock imo. Very good at the breakdown though. Him and Itoje are the guys I had in mind when saying the good lineout 6s were locks

[Biffer]

One thing about Russell wrt this is that you don't need to hide him in defence, as you do with some other 10s. Very solid tackler and looks like he enjoys it, without resorting to cheap high shots like one of the other candidates.

[JM2K6]

Which 10s are hidden?

[Biffer]

Which 10s are hidden?

Ford, and sometimes Sexton now. And Smith.

[JM2K6]

Which 10s are hidden?

Ford, and sometimes Sexton now. And Smith.

???

Sorry, that's totally wrong. Ford defends the 10 channel. So does Smith. Both end up making a lot of tackles in most matches. No idea where you got that idea from.

[clydecloggie]

Did someone genuinely call Farrell a good defender?

I guess given the size of the Boks his natural tackle height would be chest-high for a change, so there's that.

[Slick]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

[SaintK]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

Who he?

[Tichtheid]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

I looked this up the other week because someone else said this, iirc vdMerwe missed fewer tackles than any other winger in contention for the Lions, he also scored more tries than anyone else and only Dulin made more metres with ball in hand

[Tichtheid]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

Who he?

Duhan van der Merwe

[Slick]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

I looked this up the other week because someone else said this, iirc vdMerwe missed fewer tackles than any other winger in contention for the Lions, he also scored more tries than anyone else and only Dulin made more metres with ball in hand

Yes, it reminded me of that. I think he also made more tackles than the others.

[Big D]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

One of the telegraph guys didn't select Hogg.

I don't think Duhan will make it fwiw.

[Slick]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

One of the telegraph guys didn't select Hogg.

I don't think Duhan will make it fwiw.

I'm not sure he will either, bit if we are looking purely at stats he should be a shoo in

[dpedin]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

I looked this up the other week because someone else said this, iirc vdMerwe missed fewer tackles than any other winger in contention for the Lions, he also scored more tries than anyone else and only Dulin made more metres with ball in hand

Yes, it reminded me of that. I think he also made more tackles than the others.

Guys - don't let stats and analysis get in the way of a biased one eyed squad selection FFS!

[Kawazaki]

Did someone genuinely call Farrell a good defender?

I guess given the size of the Boks his natural tackle height would be chest-high for a change, so there's that.

He is a good defender. There are missed tackles on his stats but that doesn't really tell the full story of how he defends - particularly as a 10.

[SaintK]

Talking of defence, I see Owen Slot has decided IrnDu can't tour because of his weak defence

Who he?

Duhan van der Merwe

thanks