Cardio, CrossFit & Weight Training Thread

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Kawazaki
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***** Updated thread title to reflect content *****

Haven't seen a weight training thread, thought I'd begin one as they are a very useful combination for those also interested in the weight loss thread.

Any regular tin throwers on the board? I was very keen on it in my teenage and 20s years then got all grown up and fat, then kids, got fatter and now I find myself back in the gym in my late 40s. And I'm really enjoying it. Have done lots of running and cycling in the last 6 months and have lost about 13kgs but wanted to add weight training to the mix as well and when the gyms reopened in April I joined up. Currently about 99kgs but want to get down to a number in the 80s if possible.

Interested in swapping ideas on what works for older lifters, combining weights with cardio - HIT weights, cross-training etc.


:thumbup:
Last edited by Kawazaki on Mon May 24, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dpedin
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Good for me! Ive posted a few times on the weight loss thread but keen to swap ideas with fellow more mature gym goers!
Slick
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Yeah, I'm determined to get into this a bit more now the gyms are open. I do a little circuit on the fixed machines and that is about the extent of my knowledge. To be honest, I prefer that area of the gym and feel a bit out of place in the free weight bit...
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Torquemada 1420
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I'm all ears. I HATE weights/ resistance work. Happy to clunk out 10k on an ergo.

My starting question: resistance or stamina/endurance first in a gym session?
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Kawazaki
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:27 pm I'm all ears. I HATE weights/ resistance work. Happy to clunk out 10k on an ergo.

My starting question: resistance or stamina/endurance first in a gym session?

Do seperate sessions if you can. Go running in the morning before breakfast and do weights in the evening or just don't mix them on the same day at all.

I'm doing lots of lower body weight training partly because I've got a shoulder injury that limits what I can do up top. Lots of squats, dead lifts, hack squats etc plus machine work like leg extensions and curls. Plus plenty of calf raises. Also plenty of y work on my back with rows of various kinds. I can feel that is already starting to strengthen my core which is definitely helping my running and cycling.

It is never ending though, you can't stop. Well you can but then you get achy and fat again!
dpedin
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I decided to have a few sessions with a PT in my gym, guy I know well and ex rugby and involved in army reserves. I was fed up doing the same gym routines and realised I was doing the things I liked rather than what I needed to do. Also needed to continue knee rehab following a nasty case of septic arthritis in left knee. It was the best thing I could have done - he has got me doing things I wouldn't have done myself and the 2 circuits he has got me doing is far more whole body and functional than I was doing with static weights machines. Basically they involve the following - pick 3 or 4 of the core and the weights exercises:

- stretching
- warm up on aerobic machine - bike or cross trainer
- TRX lunges, side squats and squats
- core exercises - sit ups, Russian curls, planks, kettlebell swings, box squats, top to bottom cable pulls, single leg stands on wobble board, sit ups and bridges on Swiss ball
- weights - seated chest press, single arm rows, skull crushers, clean and jerks, dumbell seated shoulder presses, lat pull downs, 21s

TRX has been excellent and is really helping rehab my knee. 21s are fun - 7 lower part of curl, 7 upper part of curl then 7 full curls x 3 using weight that you can do but struggle for the final 7 full curls.

I have a session with PT every 2-3 weeks and he just checks my form and adds or adapts curcuits to make sure I am being pushed and not settling into a comfort zone. £30 a session (45mins) is not a lot for the expertise he brings.
Mileendmikey
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Great thread

Kawa I am in a similar place to you… 98 kg down from 112 , former back row, gone to lard with a dodgy knee

Have gone back to rowing and 5 by 5 programme. The stronglift web site is well worth a look if you e got access to free weights. I ve combined with cutting out the crap in my diet and it’s really starting to work

Still aiming for under 90 kg
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Tichtheid
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Mileendmikey wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:23 pm Great thread

Kawa I am in a similar place to you… 98 kg down from 112 , former back row, gone to lard with a dodgy knee

Have gone back to rowing and 5 by 5 programme. The stronglift web site is well worth a look if you e got access to free weights. I ve combined with cutting out the crap in my diet and it’s really starting to work

Still aiming for under 90 kg

I'll second that, it's where I took inspiration from for the 5x5 programme I mentioned on the weight loss thread.
https://stronglifts.com/5x5/

There is another guy who is great at teaching deadlift technique, but I forget his name, I'll have a look.

edit, Elliot Hulse is the deadlift guy
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Torquemada 1420
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Kawazaki wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:47 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:27 pm I'm all ears. I HATE weights/ resistance work. Happy to clunk out 10k on an ergo.

My starting question: resistance or stamina/endurance first in a gym session?

Do seperate sessions if you can. Go running in the morning before breakfast and do weights in the evening or just don't mix them on the same day at all.

I'm doing lots of lower body weight training partly because I've got a shoulder injury that limits what I can do up top. Lots of squats, dead lifts, hack squats etc plus machine work like leg extensions and curls. Plus plenty of calf raises. Also plenty of y work on my back with rows of various kinds. I can feel that is already starting to strengthen my core which is definitely helping my running and cycling.

It is never ending though, you can't stop. Well you can but then you get achy and fat again!
Time has always been my enemy and so, at peak, it would be 10 mins warmup, 10k (typically) on ergo and then 40 mins or so of weights. 4x a week. Since lockdown and no gyms all the weight stuff has gone but I have my own ergo so it's all been rowing. Not sure I have the mental strength now (given age) to get back to gym at all, let alone do resistance. :oops:

I'm a lightweight at 72kg
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Kawazaki
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:59 am
Kawazaki wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:47 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:27 pm I'm all ears. I HATE weights/ resistance work. Happy to clunk out 10k on an ergo.

My starting question: resistance or stamina/endurance first in a gym session?

Do seperate sessions if you can. Go running in the morning before breakfast and do weights in the evening or just don't mix them on the same day at all.

I'm doing lots of lower body weight training partly because I've got a shoulder injury that limits what I can do up top. Lots of squats, dead lifts, hack squats etc plus machine work like leg extensions and curls. Plus plenty of calf raises. Also plenty of y work on my back with rows of various kinds. I can feel that is already starting to strengthen my core which is definitely helping my running and cycling.

It is never ending though, you can't stop. Well you can but then you get achy and fat again!
Time has always been my enemy and so, at peak, it would be 10 mins warmup, 10k (typically) on ergo and then 40 mins or so of weights. 4x a week. Since lockdown and no gyms all the weight stuff has gone but I have my own ergo so it's all been rowing. Not sure I have the mental strength now (given age) to get back to gym at all, let alone do resistance. :oops:

I'm a lightweight at 72kg


10k on a rowing machine would take me well over 30 minutes I imagine, probably nearer 40! I'd have nothing left in the tank to lift weights after that.

I'm struggling with getting a routine with the right balance to hit my goals to be honest. I've lost my way a little bit. However, I do do a strenuous leg day at least once a week which leaves my legs aching for a few days. I go heavy on the squats, not to fail but down to just 3 out 4 reps followed by leg press, extensions and curls. I tend to hit the calfs as and when as they can take more punishment.
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Torquemada 1420
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Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:18 am 10k on a rowing machine would take me well over 30 minutes I imagine, probably nearer 40! I'd have nothing left in the tank to lift weights after that.

I'm struggling with getting a routine with the right balance to hit my goals to be honest. I've lost my way a little bit. However, I do do a strenuous leg day at least once a week which leaves my legs aching for a few days. I go heavy on the squats, not to fail but down to just 3 out 4 reps followed by leg press, extensions and curls. I tend to hit the calfs as and when as they can take more punishment.
You might be surprised how long it could take. Anyone (any age or weight..... because size helps in rowing) who manages to get under 40 mins for 10k is seriously fit. You need to average under 2mins per 500m split to get there.

The world records are all in the 32 to 35 min range (age, sex, weight dependent). Blackmac of this parish is a bit of a monster at this game and IIRC was a 36-37 min man. Whilst I was still in the top 50 on the world rankings (basically senior lightweights) I was at around 38:40.

Ditto on the struggling. I have never been a team event person (cough.... surprise, surprise), but am now wondering whether partnering with someone is what I require to keep me on track.
tc27
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Setup a home workout area with equipment kindly donated by a boardie from PR - (added the squat rack since).



Once a week do a big lift session (deadlifts, bench presses, squats) and then fit in a more tempo based workout in a second session (shoulder presses, cleans, snatches, chin ups ETC).

Pushed all my PBs up quite a lot - a friend of mine from rugby days usually comes round so we push each other quite hard.
dpedin
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Session 4 done since gyms opened and its getting a little easier. Will go again on Saturday and try and fit in 4 sessions this week. Gym still surprisingly quiet though which I'm not complaining about. However my golf has gone to ratshit now and reckon its because I'm still sore after gym sessions and struggling to swing freely, hopefully it will sort itself out in a few weeks as I get used to the gym work and the body loosens up a little. Hamstrings and glutes still sore after gym but its all in a good cause? 5 mile walk am and golfing pm tomorrow in-between hail and snow showers probably - Scotland in May is just a joy!
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Kawazaki
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I do Kettlebell Swings at least twice a week, sometimes more. They're brutal. Gets my heart rate up above 90% of my max. I usually do 5 sets of 20 reps with a 16kg Kettlebell. It's a great HIIT exercise.

Image
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Torquemada 1420
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Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:53 pm I do Kettlebell Swings at least twice a week, sometimes more. They're brutal. Gets my heart rate up above 90% of my max. I usually do 5 sets of 20 reps with a 16kg Kettlebell. It's a great HIIT exercise.

Image
Sounds a good option. Simple kit.
dpedin
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:15 am
Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:53 pm I do Kettlebell Swings at least twice a week, sometimes more. They're brutal. Gets my heart rate up above 90% of my max. I usually do 5 sets of 20 reps with a 16kg Kettlebell. It's a great HIIT exercise.

Image
Sounds a good option. Simple kit.
They are a good exercise - I do them and box squats as a mini circuit - one after the other 3x15 of each with 30secs rest between each set. Tough!
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Torquemada 1420
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dpedin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:42 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:15 am
Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:53 pm I do Kettlebell Swings at least twice a week, sometimes more. They're brutal. Gets my heart rate up above 90% of my max. I usually do 5 sets of 20 reps with a 16kg Kettlebell. It's a great HIIT exercise.

Image
Sounds a good option. Simple kit.
They are a good exercise - I do them and box squats as a mini circuit - one after the other 3x15 of each with 30secs rest between each set. Tough!
From those pics, they've worked wonders on Zaki.
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Kawazaki
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(Excessive) rest between sets is one of my gym bugbears. People just sit there tying up a bench or a machine or worse, a squat rack or Smith machine doing fuck all for 90% of the 10-15 minutes that they are 'using' it.

Boils my piss.
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Torquemada 1420
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Kawazaki wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 pm (Excessive) rest between sets is one of my gym bugbears. People just sit there tying up a bench or a machine or worse, a squat rack or Smith machine doing fuck all for 90% of the 10-15 minutes that they are 'using' it.

Boils my piss.
Mine is people who are "using" more than one piece of kit.

"Sorry mate. I'm using the hang bars. As part of my set with the barbells and the stepper". :mad:
Slick
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:46 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:18 am 10k on a rowing machine would take me well over 30 minutes I imagine, probably nearer 40! I'd have nothing left in the tank to lift weights after that.

I'm struggling with getting a routine with the right balance to hit my goals to be honest. I've lost my way a little bit. However, I do do a strenuous leg day at least once a week which leaves my legs aching for a few days. I go heavy on the squats, not to fail but down to just 3 out 4 reps followed by leg press, extensions and curls. I tend to hit the calfs as and when as they can take more punishment.
You might be surprised how long it could take. Anyone (any age or weight..... because size helps in rowing) who manages to get under 40 mins for 10k is seriously fit. You need to average under 2mins per 500m split to get there.

The world records are all in the 32 to 35 min range (age, sex, weight dependent). Blackmac of this parish is a bit of a monster at this game and IIRC was a 36-37 min man. Whilst I was still in the top 50 on the world rankings (basically senior lightweights) I was at around 38:40.

Ditto on the struggling. I have never been a team event person (cough.... surprise, surprise), but am now wondering whether partnering with someone is what I require to keep me on track.
Torq, I want to get on the rower a couple of times a week and build up - haven't done it in any way seriously for a long, long time. Would you have some good training suggestions for getting back up to a standard
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
inactionman
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Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:53 pm I do Kettlebell Swings at least twice a week, sometimes more. They're brutal. Gets my heart rate up above 90% of my max. I usually do 5 sets of 20 reps with a 16kg Kettlebell. It's a great HIIT exercise.

Image
Will give that a go, seeing more and more people doing it and always thought it looked a little bit faddy.

Is it tough on lower back? I had surgery on lumbar discs in my 30s and it's giving me more and more gyp during lockdown, keen to find an exercise that exercises the back without damaging it. I'm doing very low weight goblin squats but keen to add a few more exercises as I get progressively less portly. Also need to get stretches and flexibility exercises going, muscles and tendons etc around hips are like piano wire.
inactionman
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:07 am
Kawazaki wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 pm (Excessive) rest between sets is one of my gym bugbears. People just sit there tying up a bench or a machine or worse, a squat rack or Smith machine doing fuck all for 90% of the 10-15 minutes that they are 'using' it.

Boils my piss.
Mine is people who are "using" more than one piece of kit.

"Sorry mate. I'm using the hang bars. As part of my set with the barbells and the stepper". :mad:
Guilty!

Although it's usually keeping hold of a kettlebell to do some squats in between lat pulldown or similar, just haven't time to fit everything in if I do exercises in sequence - and I'm no longer lifting heavy weights to fatigue so idea of rest is a bit wasted. This does imply I'd be better of with a circuit training class, which I'll hopefully sign up to once they're back on line.
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Kawazaki
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inactionman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:31 am
Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:53 pm I do Kettlebell Swings at least twice a week, sometimes more. They're brutal. Gets my heart rate up above 90% of my max. I usually do 5 sets of 20 reps with a 16kg Kettlebell. It's a great HIIT exercise.

Image
Will give that a go, seeing more and more people doing it and always thought it looked a little bit faddy.

Is it tough on lower back? I had surgery on lumbar discs in my 30s and it's giving me more and more gyp during lockdown, keen to find an exercise that exercises the back without damaging it. I'm doing very low weight goblin squats but keen to add a few more exercises as I get progressively less portly. Also need to get stretches and flexibility exercises going, muscles and tendons etc around hips are like piano wire.

Yes it does hit the lower back especially if you do them wrong! Start with lighter weight and keep the KB closer to your body to start with (keep elbows tight to the sides of your body to keep the KB closer at the top of the swing) and don't bend the knees too much, it's not a full squat. Keep the KB closer to your arse at the bottom. Basically, you want to keep the KB close to your centre of balance and use the glutes and hips to initiate the swing up from the low position - don't lift with the back.
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Torquemada 1420
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Error
Last edited by Torquemada 1420 on Wed May 12, 2021 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Torquemada 1420
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Slick wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:16 am Torq, I want to get on the rower a couple of times a week and build up - haven't done it in any way seriously for a long, long time. Would you have some good training suggestions for getting back up to a standard
Some of this depends on whether you are going to be using for power/sprint training or whether endurance but technique is critical to both.

Join Concept 2 site
There's some great stuff here
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training

And keeping track of your progress can be done here
https://log.concept2.com/login

1) TECHNIQUE
I've been teaching people how to use the erg for almost 3 decades now. Technique is in bold because prob more than any other exercise machine, it's crucial on the erg. Get it wrong early on and at best you'll compromise your fitness efforts and spend years unpicking what you are doing wrong. At worst, you'll bugger up your back: which would be a shame because done right, rowing (like swimming) is a great all round exercise which causes no impact damage or stress to any part of the body.

So:
There are technique videos here https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos but they key points are
- you get the most power from your legs. Think about it: can you walk on your hands and if so, how long for? Versus walking on your legs? So why row with your arms?. Your arms are really only designed to act as fully extended levers holding oars. They should only be drawn in at the end of the drive. Use your arms early and you will tire fast and knot up your shoulders and back.

{EDIT} Forgot:
> don't "chicken wing" your arms at the end of the drive. Your forearms and upper arms need to be in the same plane for max efficiency so try to brush your elbows past your ribs.
> same principle with the chain, it should be near horizontal all the time. Any angle means your effort has some component wasted in the vertical plane.

Some stuff is negotiable. Most rowers use a shallow back lean at the end of the drive but Canadians use a much deeper one. The latter gives more power in a stroke but is also more tiring depending on lower back strength.

- cadence. It's not a drumbeat. Your drive should be approx 1/2 the pace of your recovery to optimise the flywheel. So if you count 1-2-3, 2 and 3 should be your return up the slide. You can help enforce this by pausing at the end of the drive. It's a valid technique. It's surprisingly mentally hard to do this. Especially when you tire, the temptation is to speed up your stroke rate AND get into 1-2, 1-2 rhythm. DON'T. NOT EVER. Whatever distance or stroke rate you are training at, never forget the correct cadence.

- staying relaxed. If you row correctly, your neck and shoulder should never tighten. They will tire but not tighten. Don't grip the handle tightly. I row without thumbs at all and open-ish hands (i.e. fingers clawed but not closed) and will lift fingers off to help relax/rest them in longer sessions. A tight grip will immediately transfer tension into your shoulder blades. In a real boat, it would screw you up entirely because the oars couldn't move correctly.

- the fan setting is not a resistance machine setting. It should not be thought of like weights. I see idiots putting it on 9 or 10 all the time. If you are Cracknell or Pinsent (or Blackmac), fine. A boat on water would be more like 5. The fan is like gears on a bike: you need to find your optimum for efficiency. Sure, go lower deliberately to force lung stress or higher to build power in sprints but those are consciously wrong with a measured purpose: like riding a bike uphill in 10th!!

Better to start with a low fan setting and work your way to optimum because that will less likely stress out getting technique right.

- stroke rate. The optimum outcome will always be the same stroke rate throughout. Hard to do because as you tire, you will subconsciously speed up. It will take time to work out what is the right combo of fan + stroke rate is for you but generally speaking, high rates are less efficient. I'm a bit of an outlier that being lightweight with a high VO2max, I tend to go at 27-28. Blackmac would be nearer 21-22.

2) Practice
The best way to practice (I do a few mins warm up this way) is to row deliberately low on the fan (say 4) WITHOUT THE FOOT STRAPS. If you've got your 1-2-3 rhythm wrong, you'll shoot out of the footrests at the end of the drive. Think about this: if you did that with straps on, all you are doing is wasting energy like crashing a bike into a wall. Absolutely perfect technicians can row full sessions without the straps and be damned close to their best times with straps.

3) Build up slow
This is where power and endurance will differ. For endurance I would
- start at 2k on fan 4 or 5 and go slow AND FINISH. Always finish. Even if you f**k up and go out too fast and then have to rest or slow down to a crawl. Psychologically, not finishing is damaging for your next sessions so better not to put yourself there. Try and do a min of 3 sessions a week (less and you will never make progress) and once you are comfortable, you can start setting goals like increasing the distance or completing it faster (which will depend on endurance or power goals).

4) Messing/stressing
Once you can row sessions evenly then you can start doing things to break up that. 2 routines I use
- on my 10ks, I will take my current target spit per 500m (say 1:57) and then add 4 seconds because that's roughly what this messing will do to your times. Then will row
500m @ 2:05, 500m @ 2:03, 2:01, 1:59, 1:57 (so that's 2.5k) and then around again 4x.
- Sprints. For me I'll do 250m targeting 1:54 splits with a 30 sec break and do it 10x. I hate these.... because they involve power and I'm an endurance person.

These types of routines really test your ability to control your technique as well as improving your actual race times and your mental hardness: a normal, even paced sessions seems a breeze after one of these.
Slick
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Torq, that is absolutley brilliant, thank you so much!

I'm going to be using it more for endurance I guess so good to know the difference. Also remeber doing a fair bit of chicken winging in the past so will keep an eye on that.

Thnaks again!
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
inactionman
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:52 am
Slick wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:16 am Torq, I want to get on the rower a couple of times a week and build up - haven't done it in any way seriously for a long, long time. Would you have some good training suggestions for getting back up to a standard
Some of this depends on whether you are going to be using for power/sprint training or whether endurance but technique is critical to both.

Join Concept 2 site
There's some great stuff here
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training

And keeping track of your progress can be done here
https://log.concept2.com/login

1) TECHNIQUE
I've been teaching people how to use the erg for almost 3 decades now. Technique is in bold because prob more than any other exercise machine, it's crucial on the erg. Get it wrong early on and at best you'll compromise your fitness efforts and spend years unpicking what you are doing wrong. At worst, you'll bugger up your back: which would be a shame because done right, rowing (like swimming) is a great all round exercise which causes no impact damage or stress to any part of the body.

So:
There are technique videos here https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos but they key points are
- you get the most power from your legs. Think about it: can you walk on your hands and if so, how long for? Versus walking on your legs? So why row with your arms?. Your arms are really only designed to act as fully extended levers holding oars. They should only be drawn in at the end of the drive. Use your arms early and you will tire fast and knot up your shoulders and back.

{EDIT} Forgot:
> don't "chicken wing" your arms at the end of the drive. Your forearms and upper arms need to be in the same plane for max efficiency so try to brush your elbows past your ribs.
> same principle with the chain, it should be near horizontal all the time. Any angle means your effort has some component wasted in the vertical plane.

Some stuff is negotiable. Most rowers use a shallow back lean at the end of the drive but Canadians use a much deeper one. The latter gives more power in a stroke but is also more tiring depending on lower back strength.

- cadence. It's not a drumbeat. Your drive should be approx 1/2 the pace of your recovery to optimise the flywheel. So if you count 1-2-3, 2 and 3 should be your return up the slide. You can help enforce this by pausing at the end of the drive. It's a valid technique. It's surprisingly mentally hard to do this. Especially when you tire, the temptation is to speed up your stroke rate AND get into 1-2, 1-2 rhythm. DON'T. NOT EVER. Whatever distance or stroke rate you are training at, never forget the correct cadence.

- staying relaxed. If you row correctly, your neck and shoulder should never tighten. They will tire but not tighten. Don't grip the handle tightly. I row without thumbs at all and open-ish hands (i.e. fingers clawed but not closed) and will lift fingers off to help relax/rest them in longer sessions. A tight grip will immediately transfer tension into your shoulder blades. In a real boat, it would screw you up entirely because the oars couldn't move correctly.

- the fan setting is not a resistance machine setting. It should not be thought of like weights. I see idiots putting it on 9 or 10 all the time. If you are Cracknell or Pinsent (or Blackmac), fine. A boat on water would be more like 5. The fan is like gears on a bike: you need to find your optimum for efficiency. Sure, go lower deliberately to force lung stress or higher to build power in sprints but those are consciously wrong with a measured purpose: like riding a bike uphill in 10th!!

Better to start with a low fan setting and work your way to optimum because that will less likely stress out getting technique right.

- stroke rate. The optimum outcome will always be the same stroke rate throughout. Hard to do because as you tire, you will subconsciously speed up. It will take time to work out what is the right combo of fan + stroke rate is for you but generally speaking, high rates are less efficient. I'm a bit of an outlier that being lightweight with a high VO2max, I tend to go at 27-28. Blackmac would be nearer 21-22.

2) Practice
The best way to practice (I do a few mins warm up this way) is to row deliberately low on the fan (say 4) WITHOUT THE FOOT STRAPS. If you've got your 1-2-3 rhythm wrong, you'll shoot out of the footrests at the end of the drive. Think about this: if you did that with straps on, all you are doing is wasting energy like crashing a bike into a wall. Absolutely perfect technicians can row full sessions without the straps and be damned close to their best times with straps.

3) Build up slow
This is where power and endurance will differ. For endurance I would
- start at 2k on fan 4 or 5 and go slow AND FINISH. Always finish. Even if you f**k up and go out too fast and then have to rest or slow down to a crawl. Psychologically, not finishing is damaging for your next sessions so better not to put yourself there. Try and do a min of 3 sessions a week (less and you will never make progress) and once you are comfortable, you can start setting goals like increasing the distance or completing it faster (which will depend on endurance or power goals).

4) Messing/stressing
Once you can row sessions evenly then you can start doing things to break up that. 2 routines I use
- on my 10ks, I will take my current target spit per 500m (say 1:57) and then add 4 seconds because that's roughly what this messing will do to your times. Then will row
500m @ 2:05, 500m @ 2:03, 2:01, 1:59, 1:57 (so that's 2.5k) and then around again 4x.
- Sprints. For me I'll do 250m targeting 1:54 splits with a 30 sec break and do it 10x. I hate these.... because they involve power and I'm an endurance person.

These types of routines really test your ability to control your technique as well as improving your actual race times and your mental hardness: a normal, even paced sessions seems a breeze after one of these.
Great stuff, ta for taking time to post

I tried the low stroke rate and low fan resistance at the gym (went for 4) and ended up feeling a bit like I was coasting - do I need to go faster on the initial 'snatch' or should I put up the fan setting?

If it helps, I'm a big bloke, reasonably strong but overweight (blame the beer) and with utterly disgraceful lack of cardio fitness (blame the lockdown) so not sure where to aim at.
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Ali Cadoo
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This thread reminds me, I must check to see if I'm doing the right combo's of body parts when I hit the gym. At the moment I do:

chest / back / tri's

then next sesh

shoulders / squats / bi's

And that's probably all arse-about-tit...
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Torquemada 1420
Posts: 11155
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
Location: Hut 8

inactionman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 pm Great stuff, ta for taking time to post

I tried the low stroke rate and low fan resistance at the gym (went for 4) and ended up feeling a bit like I was coasting - do I need to go faster on the initial 'snatch' or should I put up the fan setting?

If it helps, I'm a big bloke, reasonably strong but overweight (blame the beer) and with utterly disgraceful lack of cardio fitness (blame the lockdown) so not sure where to aim at.
Good stuff. You are testing and thinking about it which is the best way to proceed. You can never stop doing this with the ergo: I still work on technique today. BTW, there is a curious thing on these machines: if you hit a perfect stroke (mainly in the timing of the "catch"), you will know it and think "my god". It feels so right. But it's f**king hard to replicate consistently.

- don't mess with those settings now (expect maybe move to 5 which is pretty equivalent to rowing on water) for warms ups which can double on getting technique straight.
- given your self declaration of being overweight and lowish cardio, I would suggest targeting your rowing sessions at endurance first. Given your size, you'd probably already smash me in a power sprint but you won't get the benefits you need.

So
- do your warm up/technique reminder (anywhere 5 - 10 mins would suffice)
- then look to build distance. I am guessing at your weight/fitness here but try

> 2000m
> resistance at 5 (you can move up to 6 if this feels too easy but try not to go higher than that for now: better to increase stroke rate or distance)
> stroke rate no higher than 25. You might find your optimum is less than this. Try to keep it the same for each session. By all means try different rates until you work out your sweet spot (which will change early days as your fitness changes) but not within sessions unless you are doing the varied splits stress test in earlier post.
> splits. I forgot to mention this. :oops: The split per 500m setting is the most important read out on the monitor but is not the default for some reason. This is your real "overall" measure. This will sound stupidly easy
but do your first one of these at 2:10 per 500m. You should find it comfortable BUT DON'T LET TECHNIQUE DROP AWAY :smile:

Based on how that feels (it should be easy enough): next time drop to 2:08s. And so on. When you get to 2m splits, then start to up the distance by 500m per time i.e. don't go up another 500m until the current distance can be achieved in 2m splits. When you get to being able to do 5k at 2 min splits (i.e. spot on 20 mins to cover the distance) you'll be in a position to go whatever direction you like. I read somewhere on Concept once that you really only get into fat burning after 20 mins so if losing weight is your primary goal, just keep pushing out on the distance. As you lose weight, your cardio will increase anyway. There is no limit to distance but tbh, I think 10k is enough and at that point you can just work on trying to do it faster. Staying focused for 40 odd minutes is not to be under estimated.
inactionman
Posts: 3065
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:32 am
inactionman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 pm Great stuff, ta for taking time to post

I tried the low stroke rate and low fan resistance at the gym (went for 4) and ended up feeling a bit like I was coasting - do I need to go faster on the initial 'snatch' or should I put up the fan setting?

If it helps, I'm a big bloke, reasonably strong but overweight (blame the beer) and with utterly disgraceful lack of cardio fitness (blame the lockdown) so not sure where to aim at.
Good stuff. You are testing and thinking about it which is the best way to proceed. You can never stop doing this with the ergo: I still work on technique today. BTW, there is a curious thing on these machines: if you hit a perfect stroke (mainly in the timing of the "catch"), you will know it and think "my god". It feels so right. But it's f**king hard to replicate consistently.

- don't mess with those settings now (expect maybe move to 5 which is pretty equivalent to rowing on water) for warms ups which can double on getting technique straight.
- given your self declaration of being overweight and lowish cardio, I would suggest targeting your rowing sessions at endurance first. Given your size, you'd probably already smash me in a power sprint but you won't get the benefits you need.

So
- do your warm up/technique reminder (anywhere 5 - 10 mins would suffice)
- then look to build distance. I am guessing at your weight/fitness here but try

> 2000m
> resistance at 5 (you can move up to 6 if this feels too easy but try not to go higher than that for now: better to increase stroke rate or distance)
> stroke rate no higher than 25. You might find your optimum is less than this. Try to keep it the same for each session. By all means try different rates until you work out your sweet spot (which will change early days as your fitness changes) but not within sessions unless you are doing the varied splits stress test in earlier post.
> splits. I forgot to mention this. :oops: The split per 500m setting is the most important read out on the monitor but is not the default for some reason. This is your real "overall" measure. This will sound stupidly easy
but do your first one of these at 2:10 per 500m. You should find it comfortable BUT DON'T LET TECHNIQUE DROP AWAY :smile:

Based on how that feels (it should be easy enough): next time drop to 2:08s. And so on. When you get to 2m splits, then start to up the distance by 500m per time i.e. don't go up another 500m until the current distance can be achieved in 2m splits. When you get to being able to do 5k at 2 min splits (i.e. spot on 20 mins to cover the distance) you'll be in a position to go whatever direction you like. I read somewhere on Concept once that you really only get into fat burning after 20 mins so if losing weight is your primary goal, just keep pushing out on the distance. As you lose weight, your cardio will increase anyway. There is no limit to distance but tbh, I think 10k is enough and at that point you can just work on trying to do it faster. Staying focused for 40 odd minutes is not to be under estimated.
Brilliant, ta for pointers - I'll maybe nudge the fan to 5 and give that a go.

I was hitting around 2:10 on my row last night, although I can see fatigue and slipping form might make it tougher over distance.
I also recall training sessions years back where getting 500m split times down even a fraction seemed to require disproportionate amounts of effort!

Will give it a go next time I'm in the gym
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Kawazaki
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Ali Cadoo wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:45 am This thread reminds me, I must check to see if I'm doing the right combo's of body parts when I hit the gym. At the moment I do:

chest / back / tri's

then next sesh

shoulders / squats / bi's

And that's probably all arse-about-tit...

Legs really deserve their own day if you have time but a good squat session is perfectly good if that's all you can do. Try to hit the calves if you can though, just go very very heavy every time as they need huge motivation to adapt.

Changing things around regularly is the key though. Do all your push reps one day and all your pull reps on another for example.
Lisbon Nick
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:26 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:04 am Haven't seen a weight training thread, thought I'd begin one as they are a very useful combination for those also interested in the weight loss thread.

Any regular tin throwers on the board? I was very keen on it in my teenage and 20s years then got all grown up and fat, then kids, got fatter and now I find myself back in the gym in my late 40s. And I'm really enjoying it. Have done lots of running and cycling in the last 6 months and have lost about 13kgs but wanted to add weight training to the mix as well and when the gyms reopened in April I joined up. Currently about 99kgs but want to get down to a number in the 80s if possible.

Interested in swapping ideas on what works for older lifters, combining weights with cardio - HIT weights, cross-training etc.


:thumbup:
Thanks for starting the thread Kawazaki. Just turned 58 and have been training since my mid 40s but really took off around the time I hit 50 and the kids left home which freed up a lot of time.

In my 50s Ive experimented with crossfit and also ran (or should I say strolled) a few half marathons but nowadays stick to the gym. Basically I alternate between leg days, upperbody days and cardio coupled with some crossfit exercises. I use a PT once a week mainly to check on technique and keep my intensity up.

The one unusual aspect of my wight training is squatting where I do a lot more front than back squats as I find they are much better for my posture. I also do a lot of thrusters (one favorite exercise is a combination of rowing and thrusters).

The main problem of getting older isnt lifting (I set a new deadlift pb at age 56) but losing what I can best describe as explosive capacity e,g jumping or accelerating. I now really struggle with sets of burpees. On the cardio side my times for a 2K row times have steadily declined by 10 seconds a year. In my early 50s I could break 7.30 now 8.30 is a struggle. The decline has been incredibly consisitent.

Anyway, looking forward to exchanging ideas with the rest of you
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Kawazaki
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:25 am

Lisbon Nick wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:05 am
Kawazaki wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:04 am Haven't seen a weight training thread, thought I'd begin one as they are a very useful combination for those also interested in the weight loss thread.

Any regular tin throwers on the board? I was very keen on it in my teenage and 20s years then got all grown up and fat, then kids, got fatter and now I find myself back in the gym in my late 40s. And I'm really enjoying it. Have done lots of running and cycling in the last 6 months and have lost about 13kgs but wanted to add weight training to the mix as well and when the gyms reopened in April I joined up. Currently about 99kgs but want to get down to a number in the 80s if possible.

Interested in swapping ideas on what works for older lifters, combining weights with cardio - HIT weights, cross-training etc.


:thumbup:
Thanks for starting the thread Kawazaki. Just turned 58 and have been training since my mid 40s but really took off around the time I hit 50 and the kids left home which freed up a lot of time.

In my 50s Ive experimented with crossfit and also ran (or should I say strolled) a few half marathons but nowadays stick to the gym. Basically I alternate between leg days, upperbody days and cardio coupled with some crossfit exercises. I use a PT once a week mainly to check on technique and keep my intensity up.

The one unusual aspect of my wight training is squatting where I do a lot more front than back squats as I find they are much better for my posture. I also do a lot of thrusters (one favorite exercise is a combination of rowing and thrusters).

The main problem of getting older isnt lifting (I set a new deadlift pb at age 56) but losing what I can best describe as explosive capacity e,g jumping or accelerating. I now really struggle with sets of burpees. On the cardio side my times for a 2K row times have steadily declined by 10 seconds a year. In my early 50s I could break 7.30 now 8.30 is a struggle. The decline has been incredibly consisitent.

Anyway, looking forward to exchanging ideas with the rest of you




Blimey! His rowing technique is actually terrible but his form on the thrusters is very good. That looks like hard work!
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Ali Cadoo
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:36 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:59 am
Ali Cadoo wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:45 am This thread reminds me, I must check to see if I'm doing the right combo's of body parts when I hit the gym. At the moment I do:

chest / back / tri's

then next sesh

shoulders / squats / bi's

And that's probably all arse-about-tit...

Legs really deserve their own day if you have time but a good squat session is perfectly good if that's all you can do. Try to hit the calves if you can though, just go very very heavy every time as they need huge motivation to adapt.

Changing things around regularly is the key though. Do all your push reps one day and all your pull reps on another for example.
Nice one, cheers. Not really interested in legs, my thighs remember what they were like in my 20s and if they blow up to that size again then I have to buy a new wardrobe. I’m really just training for general health and enjoyment.

One tip I can throw into the thread: DO NOT watch Dorian Yates work out tips before your session, I had to take 3 days off training after being ‘motivated’ a few weeks ago.
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Torquemada 1420
Posts: 11155
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
Location: Hut 8

Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:41 am



Blimey! His rowing technique is actually terrible but his form on the thrusters is very good. That looks like hard work!
Most gym instructors are clueless on correct use of an ergo. Yup. So much wrong there including
- splaying the knees so a load of his leg drive is wasted sideways
- the finish where the handle ends up half way up his chest and he's trying to use his wrists!!!
- cadence.......... 1-2-1-2
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Kawazaki
Posts: 4799
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:25 am

Ali Cadoo wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:20 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:59 am
Ali Cadoo wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:45 am This thread reminds me, I must check to see if I'm doing the right combo's of body parts when I hit the gym. At the moment I do:

chest / back / tri's

then next sesh

shoulders / squats / bi's

And that's probably all arse-about-tit...

Legs really deserve their own day if you have time but a good squat session is perfectly good if that's all you can do. Try to hit the calves if you can though, just go very very heavy every time as they need huge motivation to adapt.

Changing things around regularly is the key though. Do all your push reps one day and all your pull reps on another for example.
Nice one, cheers. Not really interested in legs, my thighs remember what they were like in my 20s and if they blow up to that size again then I have to buy a new wardrobe. I’m really just training for general health and enjoyment.

One tip I can throw into the thread: DO NOT watch Dorian Yates work out tips before your session, I had to take 3 days off training after being ‘motivated’ a few weeks ago.


You won't get massive thighs from doing leg sessions unless you eat big and lift very heavy. However, one thing you do get from doing leg work is great muscle adaptation not just in the legs but across your whole body. They also usually elicit a decent aerobic response as well.
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Torquemada 1420
Posts: 11155
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
Location: Hut 8

For those regular users or ergos, would strongly recommend purchasing
Image

https://godfrey.co.uk/product/stock-ergo-grip

Prevents sore arse and also slipping on those hard, plastic seats.
inactionman
Posts: 3065
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am

inactionman wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:38 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:32 am
inactionman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 pm Great stuff, ta for taking time to post

I tried the low stroke rate and low fan resistance at the gym (went for 4) and ended up feeling a bit like I was coasting - do I need to go faster on the initial 'snatch' or should I put up the fan setting?

If it helps, I'm a big bloke, reasonably strong but overweight (blame the beer) and with utterly disgraceful lack of cardio fitness (blame the lockdown) so not sure where to aim at.
Good stuff. You are testing and thinking about it which is the best way to proceed. You can never stop doing this with the ergo: I still work on technique today. BTW, there is a curious thing on these machines: if you hit a perfect stroke (mainly in the timing of the "catch"), you will know it and think "my god". It feels so right. But it's f**king hard to replicate consistently.

- don't mess with those settings now (expect maybe move to 5 which is pretty equivalent to rowing on water) for warms ups which can double on getting technique straight.
- given your self declaration of being overweight and lowish cardio, I would suggest targeting your rowing sessions at endurance first. Given your size, you'd probably already smash me in a power sprint but you won't get the benefits you need.

So
- do your warm up/technique reminder (anywhere 5 - 10 mins would suffice)
- then look to build distance. I am guessing at your weight/fitness here but try

> 2000m
> resistance at 5 (you can move up to 6 if this feels too easy but try not to go higher than that for now: better to increase stroke rate or distance)
> stroke rate no higher than 25. You might find your optimum is less than this. Try to keep it the same for each session. By all means try different rates until you work out your sweet spot (which will change early days as your fitness changes) but not within sessions unless you are doing the varied splits stress test in earlier post.
> splits. I forgot to mention this. :oops: The split per 500m setting is the most important read out on the monitor but is not the default for some reason. This is your real "overall" measure. This will sound stupidly easy
but do your first one of these at 2:10 per 500m. You should find it comfortable BUT DON'T LET TECHNIQUE DROP AWAY :smile:

Based on how that feels (it should be easy enough): next time drop to 2:08s. And so on. When you get to 2m splits, then start to up the distance by 500m per time i.e. don't go up another 500m until the current distance can be achieved in 2m splits. When you get to being able to do 5k at 2 min splits (i.e. spot on 20 mins to cover the distance) you'll be in a position to go whatever direction you like. I read somewhere on Concept once that you really only get into fat burning after 20 mins so if losing weight is your primary goal, just keep pushing out on the distance. As you lose weight, your cardio will increase anyway. There is no limit to distance but tbh, I think 10k is enough and at that point you can just work on trying to do it faster. Staying focused for 40 odd minutes is not to be under estimated.
Brilliant, ta for pointers - I'll maybe nudge the fan to 5 and give that a go.

I was hitting around 2:10 on my row last night, although I can see fatigue and slipping form might make it tougher over distance.
I also recall training sessions years back where getting 500m split times down even a fraction seemed to require disproportionate amounts of effort!

Will give it a go next time I'm in the gym
I had another go on the ergo last night, put resistance at 5 and kept to the lower cadence and tried to keep good form. It feels so much more focused now, I'm sure technique is still pretty scrappy but previously I just felt all arms and legs - ta again for pointers :thumbup:

Did the 2k at around 2:10 (overall time was just under 9 mins, but a few delays to get straps etc properly sorted), the one thing I found is that it was hard to actually bring the split time down - if I wanted to try to go at 2:00, for example, I'm not sure what's best to up the intensity - increase stroke rate, a more 'violent' catch, really try to drive through the initial stroke.

I appreciate the above probably sounds really stupid (just go faster, you klutz), but much of the above would increase stroke rate which is what I'm trying to keep under control.

One thing I noticed was inflexibility in my hips/quads is stopping me getting forward, will work on that to get a longer stroke which I'd hope would be more efficient. This has really crept up on me, noted it over xmas where I have to really plan putting on boots - left foot in particular - as my flexibility in hips is shot. Just too long in chairs and age all ganging up. Any ideas for good stretches to help get hip flexibility up would be much appreciated.
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Kawazaki
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inactionman wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:39 am
One thing I noticed was inflexibility in my hips/quads is stopping me getting forward, will work on that to get a longer stroke which I'd hope would be more efficient. This has really crept up on me, noted it over xmas where I have to really plan putting on boots - left foot in particular - as my flexibility in hips is shot. Just too long in chairs and age all ganging up. Any ideas for good stretches to help get hip flexibility up would be much appreciated.

It's your iliotibial band (ITB) that needs stretching. It runs down the outside of your leg from your hip to your knee. Causes no end of trouble.

There are lots of ways of stretching it, Yoga and Pilates type positions or more dynamic stretching. You really need to find what works for you. My ITBs were/are bad and I really should stretch them more but it can be sore and boring!
dpedin
Posts: 2975
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:35 am

Thanks for tips on kettle bell swings earlier in thread - they helped a lot. I am new to using them and technique was a bit off.

Being back in the gym has been a relief and my body is now getting used to the weights again. When I first got back in, after 3-4 months out, I was down by 35% in my weights but over last 2-3 weeks I am gradually increasing weights I am using and number of sets. I'm beginning to feel I'm back working properly now. I've also been increasing level and duration on cross training for my aerobic sessions and again gradually building up. I'm doing 20 mins on x-trainer and 45 mins, with minimal rests, on TRX, core and weights sets which is long enough for me and something I can fit comfortably into my gym days. Allowing for travel, shower after, etc its a 2 hour commitment 3-4 times a week.

How are all the other oldies doing?
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