Wales Online and Bristol Mail also reporting it.Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:04 am Sinkler called up following an injury to porter according to the Mail
Andrew Porter who picked up a significant toe injury in Leinster's defeat to Glasgow Warriors on Friday night in the Rainbow Cup.
To be fair, the Lions announced it this morning, so that's not much of a scoopSaintK wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:01 amWales Online and Bristol Mail also reporting it.Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:04 am Sinkler called up following an injury to porter according to the MailAndrew Porter who picked up a significant toe injury in Leinster's defeat to Glasgow Warriors on Friday night in the Rainbow Cup.
I’m glad he’s going, deserved to be there in the first placeMargin__Walker wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:04 am Sinkler called up following an injury to porter according to the Mail
Honest answer? He was excellent for the Lions last time out and has matured quite a bit since then. His "character problems" have resulted in what exactly? For England he's been hugely effective and one of the best around. He's still not the finished article and he is still a hothead, but so are several others on tour.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:02 am Sort of surprised, not that I'm an expert on ranking props. I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that Sinckler wasn't selected originally because of let's say character issues. So I guess Sinckler with those possible issues is still fourth in line. Nothing against him, just the logic seems a bit odd.
I guess all those world cup finalists, 2020 six nations winners, 2020 autumn cup winners are just bad players now. Sad to see such a sudden decline.Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:30 am Must be said, Gatland is putting a hell of a lot of faith in players for a team that came 5th in the six nations, most of which would die for England and Eddie Jones, but even he couldn't get the best out of them.
Have to ask, are the Sky Sports Lions customer and subscriber base mainly English, by any chance?
Wouldn't argue with that, that's why it seemed illogical that he wasn't picked originally.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:04 amHonest answer? He was excellent for the Lions last time out and has matured quite a bit since then. His "character problems" have resulted in what exactly? For England he's been hugely effective and one of the best around. He's still not the finished article and he is still a hothead, but so are several others on tour.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:02 am Sort of surprised, not that I'm an expert on ranking props. I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that Sinckler wasn't selected originally because of let's say character issues. So I guess Sinckler with those possible issues is still fourth in line. Nothing against him, just the logic seems a bit odd.
I did think it was illogical, especially given Porter is mediocre. Taking it at face value, Gatland put a very high premium on Porter's ability to play both sides - IMO he cares a lot about making sure his "Test" team aren't over-exposed on tour and having some no-mark who's able to cover various positions, even if it's not at a particularly impressive level, is a godsend to him. I am really not a fan of how most of the tour matches get essentially sacrificed on the modern tours but that's the way it is now.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:13 amWouldn't argue with that, that's why it seemed illogical that he wasn't picked originally.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:04 amHonest answer? He was excellent for the Lions last time out and has matured quite a bit since then. His "character problems" have resulted in what exactly? For England he's been hugely effective and one of the best around. He's still not the finished article and he is still a hothead, but so are several others on tour.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:02 am Sort of surprised, not that I'm an expert on ranking props. I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that Sinckler wasn't selected originally because of let's say character issues. So I guess Sinckler with those possible issues is still fourth in line. Nothing against him, just the logic seems a bit odd.
He and Fagerson are very similar in that regard. Very 'angry' players sometimes, potentially prone to a wee bit of red mist.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:04 amHonest answer? He was excellent for the Lions last time out and has matured quite a bit since then. His "character problems" have resulted in what exactly? For England he's been hugely effective and one of the best around. He's still not the finished article and he is still a hothead, but so are several others on tour.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:02 am Sort of surprised, not that I'm an expert on ranking props. I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that Sinckler wasn't selected originally because of let's say character issues. So I guess Sinckler with those possible issues is still fourth in line. Nothing against him, just the logic seems a bit odd.
Don't think anyone's suggesting he's not in the mix? It's only Porter's inclusion that raised eyebrows.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:25 am One of the good things about the Lions is being able to watch players as "your own" rather than them being opponents. I think Zander Fagerson will surprise a few people when they watch him in that light.
He's a young laddie for a tighthead, just turned 25 this year and he has a lot of rugby under his belt already - 100 appearances for Glasgow and 38 Scotland caps.
Saw him against one of the Welsh teams a couple of weeks ago, he looked a size bigger than anyone else. Seemed a bit fractious then as well.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:25 am One of the good things about the Lions is being able to watch players as "your own" rather than them being opponents. I think Zander Fagerson will surprise a few people when they watch him in that light.
He's a young laddie for a tighthead, just turned 25 this year and he has a lot of rugby under his belt already - 100 appearances for Glasgow and 38 Scotland caps.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:16 amI did think it was illogical, especially given Porter is mediocre. Taking it at face value, Gatland put a very high premium on Porter's ability to play both sides - IMO he cares a lot about making sure his "Test" team aren't over-exposed on tour and having some no-mark who's able to cover various positions, even if it's not at a particularly impressive level, is a godsend to him. I am really not a fan of how most of the tour matches get essentially sacrificed on the modern tours but that's the way it is now.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:13 amWouldn't argue with that, that's why it seemed illogical that he wasn't picked originally.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:04 am
Honest answer? He was excellent for the Lions last time out and has matured quite a bit since then. His "character problems" have resulted in what exactly? For England he's been hugely effective and one of the best around. He's still not the finished article and he is still a hothead, but so are several others on tour.
I'm not going to claim that Sinckler is obviously better than the other tightheads (aside from Porter, natch) but I would say his performances have shown he's at least at their level and his physicality is a huge asset. Sadly I think there'll be little chance for him to push for a Test place.
for you if you're not fishing. Why would I be fishing? I don't think Porter is Lions standard. The other tightheads, including Sinckler, are.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:29 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:16 amI did think it was illogical, especially given Porter is mediocre. Taking it at face value, Gatland put a very high premium on Porter's ability to play both sides - IMO he cares a lot about making sure his "Test" team aren't over-exposed on tour and having some no-mark who's able to cover various positions, even if it's not at a particularly impressive level, is a godsend to him. I am really not a fan of how most of the tour matches get essentially sacrificed on the modern tours but that's the way it is now.
I'm not going to claim that Sinckler is obviously better than the other tightheads (aside from Porter, natch) but I would say his performances have shown he's at least at their level and his physicality is a huge asset. Sadly I think there'll be little chance for him to push for a Test place.
Porter is excellent, he's not mediocre.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:16 amI did think it was illogical, especially given Porter is mediocre. Taking it at face value, Gatland put a very high premium on Porter's ability to play both sides - IMO he cares a lot about making sure his "Test" team aren't over-exposed on tour and having some no-mark who's able to cover various positions, even if it's not at a particularly impressive level, is a godsend to him. I am really not a fan of how most of the tour matches get essentially sacrificed on the modern tours but that's the way it is now.GogLais wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:13 amWouldn't argue with that, that's why it seemed illogical that he wasn't picked originally.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:04 am
Honest answer? He was excellent for the Lions last time out and has matured quite a bit since then. His "character problems" have resulted in what exactly? For England he's been hugely effective and one of the best around. He's still not the finished article and he is still a hothead, but so are several others on tour.
I'm not going to claim that Sinckler is obviously better than the other tightheads (aside from Porter, natch) but I would say his performances have shown he's at least at their level and his physicality is a huge asset. Sadly I think there'll be little chance for him to push for a Test place.
earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:11 amPorter is excellent, he's not mediocre.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:16 amI did think it was illogical, especially given Porter is mediocre. Taking it at face value, Gatland put a very high premium on Porter's ability to play both sides - IMO he cares a lot about making sure his "Test" team aren't over-exposed on tour and having some no-mark who's able to cover various positions, even if it's not at a particularly impressive level, is a godsend to him. I am really not a fan of how most of the tour matches get essentially sacrificed on the modern tours but that's the way it is now.
I'm not going to claim that Sinckler is obviously better than the other tightheads (aside from Porter, natch) but I would say his performances have shown he's at least at their level and his physicality is a huge asset. Sadly I think there'll be little chance for him to push for a Test place.
Victory!earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 am He did make an odd selection without a holding midfielder or a striker and it didn't work. He's done this a lot in knock out European games over the past 10 years.
And what has that got to do with Porter? He's a great prop, decent in the scrum, stupidly powerful with the ball and without. Describing him as mediocre is a nonsense.
Porter was a LH up until u20s so I think he probably can do a job, not an amazing one as he's not played there in 5 years, but more so than others. I don't think he was picked because of his versatility, I think he was picked because he's an excellent TH, one of the best in Europe, the fact that Furlong is ahead of him for province and country doesn't change that as Furlong is one of the best in the world. I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen Porter on the bench in the tests.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:14 amVictory!earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 am He did make an odd selection without a holding midfielder or a striker and it didn't work. He's done this a lot in knock out European games over the past 10 years.
And what has that got to do with Porter? He's a great prop, decent in the scrum, stupidly powerful with the ball and without. Describing him as mediocre is a nonsense.
I dunno man, it's called an opinion based on what I've seen from Porter. I don't think he's anywhere near as good as Irish fans think, it's not really a surprise he ended up benching for Furlong in the 6N, and given how often Irish fans will write off any English player based on watching them in a single match against fucking Munster or something I'm a little surprised you can't accept a difference of opinion and that Fester thinks I'm trolling.
And I think we probably both agree his ability to play both sides is overstated, as it has been for every prop with that ability for the last decade or so.
I don't think Furlong is much better than Sinckler going over the last few years. And yeah, not really playing LH for 5 years puts that in the "in case of emergencies break glass" thing.earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:02 amPorter was a LH up until u20s so I think he probably can do a job, not an amazing one as he's not played there in 5 years, but more so than others. I don't think he was picked because of his versatility, I think he was picked because he's an excellent TH, one of the best in Europe, the fact that Furlong is ahead of him for province and country doesn't change that as Furlong is one of the best in the world. I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen Furlong on the bench in the tests.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:14 amVictory!earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 am He did make an odd selection without a holding midfielder or a striker and it didn't work. He's done this a lot in knock out European games over the past 10 years.
And what has that got to do with Porter? He's a great prop, decent in the scrum, stupidly powerful with the ball and without. Describing him as mediocre is a nonsense.
I dunno man, it's called an opinion based on what I've seen from Porter. I don't think he's anywhere near as good as Irish fans think, it's not really a surprise he ended up benching for Furlong in the 6N, and given how often Irish fans will write off any English player based on watching them in a single match against fucking Munster or something I'm a little surprised you can't accept a difference of opinion and that Fester thinks I'm trolling.
And I think we probably both agree his ability to play both sides is overstated, as it has been for every prop with that ability for the last decade or so.
I would have had Sinckler in the squad if I was picking, but over Fagerson.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:04 am And there we disagree - I don't think Furlong has quite delivered on the promise of his amazing early performances (mostly against NZ in various forms!) but is still a fine player deserving of his Lions place. Sinckler was an impact player last time round who's matured into a top quality international tighthead with a very rare skillset and a core part of England's repeated successes since the last Lions tour.
Irish people tend to think all English players are massively overrated so I'm not surprised to see this, but if Furlong was English and Sinckler was Irish this conversation would look very different, I expect.
Irish fans over rating their players shockJM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:14 amVictory!earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 am He did make an odd selection without a holding midfielder or a striker and it didn't work. He's done this a lot in knock out European games over the past 10 years.
And what has that got to do with Porter? He's a great prop, decent in the scrum, stupidly powerful with the ball and without. Describing him as mediocre is a nonsense.
I dunno man, it's called an opinion based on what I've seen from Porter. I don't think he's anywhere near as good as Irish fans think, it's not really a surprise he ended up benching for Furlong in the 6N, and given how often Irish fans will write off any English player based on watching them in a single match against fucking Munster or something I'm a little surprised you can't accept a difference of opinion and that Fester thinks I'm trolling.
And I think we probably both agree his ability to play both sides is overstated, as it has been for every prop with that ability for the last decade or so.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:04 am And there we disagree - I don't think Furlong has quite delivered on the promise of his amazing early performances (mostly against NZ in various forms!) but is still a fine player deserving of his Lions place. Sinckler was an impact player last time round who's matured into a top quality international tighthead with a very rare skillset and a core part of England's repeated successes since the last Lions tour.
Irish people tend to think all English players are massively overrated so I'm not surprised to see this, but if Furlong was English and Sinckler was Irish this conversation would look very different, I expect.
Other way round. The red faced angry one will be the dirt tracker.dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:18 pm If it was my choice I would Furlong over Sinkler in my team every day of the week. He is the stronger and more destructive scrummager and gives away the least number of penalties in the scrum. Between Porter and Sinkler is a tighter call but for me Porter is as good a scrummager but adds more around the park and would be my call. Ireland won the battle with England scrum in 6Ns. Fagerson is a beast, a good scrummager and carries the ball aggressively. He, along with the rest of the Scottish front row, gave away the least number of scrum penalties in the 6Ns and he would be on the bench for me to replace Furlong. Sinkler will make a good dirt tracker.
His distribution skills are a real point of difference so ehKawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:42 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:04 am And there we disagree - I don't think Furlong has quite delivered on the promise of his amazing early performances (mostly against NZ in various forms!) but is still a fine player deserving of his Lions place. Sinckler was an impact player last time round who's matured into a top quality international tighthead with a very rare skillset and a core part of England's repeated successes since the last Lions tour.
Irish people tend to think all English players are massively overrated so I'm not surprised to see this, but if Furlong was English and Sinckler was Irish this conversation would look very different, I expect.
I'm English and as biased as it gets but I can see why non-English fans have serious doubts about Sinckler. He often has serious lapses in concentration during games that it takes him ages to snap out of, mentally he isn't strong. However, what really boils my piss with Sinckler is the no-look passes he does as if a. any player above about level 5 rugby would ever fall for, and b. you're a prop ffs, either carry the ball up or draw and pass, leave the fancy shit to the Jock flyhalf.
Gatland an Irish fan?Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:30 pmIrish fans over rating their players shockJM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:14 amVictory!earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 am He did make an odd selection without a holding midfielder or a striker and it didn't work. He's done this a lot in knock out European games over the past 10 years.
And what has that got to do with Porter? He's a great prop, decent in the scrum, stupidly powerful with the ball and without. Describing him as mediocre is a nonsense.
I dunno man, it's called an opinion based on what I've seen from Porter. I don't think he's anywhere near as good as Irish fans think, it's not really a surprise he ended up benching for Furlong in the 6N, and given how often Irish fans will write off any English player based on watching them in a single match against fucking Munster or something I'm a little surprised you can't accept a difference of opinion and that Fester thinks I'm trolling.
And I think we probably both agree his ability to play both sides is overstated, as it has been for every prop with that ability for the last decade or so.
Not impossible, but Fagerson starts off higher up the pecking order. Obvs.SaintK wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:57 pmOther way round. The red faced angry one will be the dirt tracker.dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:18 pm If it was my choice I would Furlong over Sinkler in my team every day of the week. He is the stronger and more destructive scrummager and gives away the least number of penalties in the scrum. Between Porter and Sinkler is a tighter call but for me Porter is as good a scrummager but adds more around the park and would be my call. Ireland won the battle with England scrum in 6Ns. Fagerson is a beast, a good scrummager and carries the ball aggressively. He, along with the rest of the Scottish front row, gave away the least number of scrum penalties in the 6Ns and he would be on the bench for me to replace Furlong. Sinkler will make a good dirt tracker.
Yeah that's why I'm slagging off Furlong and FagersonUncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:58 pm Little bit surprised to see JM2K6 falling foul of the "players other than my player are shit" fallacy but Porter is a pretty good international TH. Sure he got dropped for Furlong this year but once Furlong is fit, you pick him. Rough on the other guy but you pick the best available to you.
Sinckler is a pretty good player but it's a competitive position and Gatland clearly alluded to previous off-field issues as a reason for non-selection.
Porter has always struck me as a bit of a journeyman.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:30 pmIrish fans over rating their players shockJM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:14 amVictory!earl the beaver wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 am He did make an odd selection without a holding midfielder or a striker and it didn't work. He's done this a lot in knock out European games over the past 10 years.
And what has that got to do with Porter? He's a great prop, decent in the scrum, stupidly powerful with the ball and without. Describing him as mediocre is a nonsense.
I dunno man, it's called an opinion based on what I've seen from Porter. I don't think he's anywhere near as good as Irish fans think, it's not really a surprise he ended up benching for Furlong in the 6N, and given how often Irish fans will write off any English player based on watching them in a single match against fucking Munster or something I'm a little surprised you can't accept a difference of opinion and that Fester thinks I'm trolling.
And I think we probably both agree his ability to play both sides is overstated, as it has been for every prop with that ability for the last decade or so.
