The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Jock42]

On RC?

[Begbie]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

Basically Cockers was the right man to give Edinburgh a kick up the arse, but his style wore thin quickly and he should have gone sooner. He insisted on total control so players couldn't make on-field decisions, everything had to come from the side lines. Also mentions him not giving youngsters a chance. It's pretty much what we all knew really.

[I like neeps]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

[KingBlairhorn]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

Grim reading. You have to wonder how much of that the SRU were aware of, and ask why less than a year ago they provided a contract extension. To be honest, that has bullying claim written all over it.

[JM2K6]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

I wish 4071 was on this board. He'd be screaming "VINDICATION!" at everyone right about now.

[KingBlairhorn]

My take on Lions selection for the first test:

Probables:
Price: Definitely the best 9 on tour on form. If AWJ starts, I think Price does too. I think both are likely. His speed of service and quality of pass have both been brilliant, as has the accuracy of his box kick. He is not necessarily the best performer in every stat, but he is the most consistent performer across all the stats together. In the 15.

Hogg: Williams may be 'better under the high ball' than Hogg, but I think Hogg offers too much else for him not to be in the team. In particular his huge boot will be crucial, as will be his ability to step in to provide another option at either first or second receiver. In the 15.

Sutherland: A bit of an odd one. I don't think he is necessarily a stand out compared with the other potential test starter (Wyn Jones), but I believe Furlong hasn't played more than a few minutes with any other loosehead. It seems unlikely to me that Gatland would start a completely untested partnership in the first test. In the 15.

Watson: Has answered every criticism thrown at him, has been outstanding every match thus far. Despite the calls for Curry from the English fans/media (and Curry is an outstanding player), I think Mish will start. His ball carrying has been brilliant, he has been excellent at the breakdown and his mobility has been outstanding. These are all attributes I think Gatland will be looking for in his test 7. If he doesn't start (for me only Curry has a case to take the 7 jersey from him) he will be in the 23.

Possibles:
Harris: Defensively excellent, and has shown up plenty in attack too. I think that Gatland will go with Henshaw at 12 and Aki at 13 for the first test though (despite form), mostly due to their test level familiarity with each other. There is no way in hell, in my opinion, that Daly makes the starting 15 - he is a liability in defence. In the 15 or doesn't make the 23. For me, he will fail to make the 23.

Duhan: He has been genuinely excellent on this tour and I think will justifiably consider himself extremely unlucky when he probably fails to make the 23. I think his weakness under the high ball, his inability to kick and the concerns about his defensive positioning will all see him miss out, probably to Watson. In the 15 or doesn't make the 23. For me, he will fail to make the 23.

Dirt Trackers:
Fagerson - not been bad, but not been outstanding at any point either. He's been unfortunate that he's been partnered at times with Mako having a stinker, but he has also made plenty of other mistakes himself that are enough to put him as 3rd choice. It will have been an excellent learning experience for him though, and I expect him to be back in 4 years. Having the chance to work with Furlong, IMO a strong candidate for best tighthead in the world, will have been invaluable.

Not Considered:
Russel

[Slick]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

The news that Richard Cockerill has left his job as Edinburgh head coach caught many on the hop, but I was far from surprised to hear that the former England hooker had gone. Frankly, the only surprise is that he lasted as long as he did.

It has to be said that Cockers made some positive changes when he came into the job four years ago. At that time Edinburgh were seen as listless, rudderless and with a soft underbelly. There was a sense of complacency about the club, with players seemingly believing that playing professional rugby was enough and that winning was optional. There was no sense of common purpose with a lacklustre approach to standards.

So Edinburgh needed someone like Cockers back in 2017. They needed a firm, even autocratic leader. What they did not need was for him to hang around being firm and autocratic after he had knocked them into shape. He was an agent of positive change at the start, but he was a malign presence thereafter.

My two seasons under Cockers were a tough experience. A snapped achilles didn’t help, but my biggest frustration was not being able or allowed to contribute more to the team or put my experience — I had been a pro for more than 13 years when I joined — to good use. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I will be the first to admit it. But even during my brief time, the feeling of unrest and of an unsustainable environment was clear.

Cockers is an old-school coach, and you cannot help but admire his tenacity to stick to what he knows. “This is how we play and I won’t apologise for it” was the party line. He shouts, he rages, which is fine, if it is serving a greater intention. Embarrassing players before their peers never serves a team well however. Demanding total control — of everything — has the same effect. His eye for detail and his unrelenting focus on them is why he makes a difference at clubs. However this positive when overplayed turns into a vice.

Players need to drive the team with coaches guiding from the sides. Leaders should make leaders, creating a succession of leaders for the future, a continuity plan leaving a legacy of leaders. In this autocratic environment, I found little evidence of this. Decisions on the pitch were communicated from the sidelines. Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players.

There are times when team meetings should be tense and the riot act needs reading. This became the norm however and team meetings were far from pleasant affairs with players constantly reminded that they had failed, not a healthy landscape for the exchanges of ideas that characterises many successful teams.

When problems occurred in games, as was the norm, we would look to the sidelines for answers. The environment he created did not allow players to read a situation, take a game by the scruff of the neck, make bold and brave decisions and drive a team on. Players (who showed themselves to be perfectly adaptable playing for Scotland) had no option but to fall in line when the bombs were going off and nobody stuck their head above the parapet for fear of being ripped to shreds the following Monday.

In modern times rugby clubs have evolved like most professional sports and a more integrated/collegiate approach is more common. A shared leadership model is the norm with a flatter hierarchy. Modern coaches seeing the value of the environment and the greater picture; creating a common goal and higher purpose empowers a team, strengthening the bonds within. Coaches learn from players and vice versa. Players are no longer used to — and no longer accepting of — being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not. Players are involved throughout. Senior player groups work with coaches.

Under Cockers, Edinburgh developed a style based on being tough up front, well disciplined and physical. He undoubtedly did this, making Edinburgh a tough team to beat.

I joined Edinburgh off the back of playing against them for Scarlets and recognising just how much the team had improved in their physicality and discipline alone. It worked against some teams and it brought some respect, but it was inflexible and was snail paced to evolve. Against bigger sides that plan A was found out and there was no plan B to turn to. Edinburgh’s record in knockout games under Cockers was terrible.

It was no surprise that rumours of player unrest began to trickle out last season. Cockers had arguably lost the dressing room years before. Young players who had grown up dreaming of playing professional rugby faced a grim reality with Cockers. Some thrived under it; players that enjoyed the hard line approach. Some players need an arm around them at their lowest ebbs. That arm was never going to be forthcoming.

A few departed, disillusioned, with no plan ever to play rugby again. Promising players were made to feel peripheral. Rory Darge hardly got a look-in under Cockers and has been sensational since his move to Glasgow. Callum Hunter-Hill was another who was given little game time but he has since become a regular starter with Saracens. Rory Sutherland was languishing in the ranks of amateur rugby but 18 months ago. Gregor Townsend saw his potential, trusted him and empowered him to go and play. Now look where he is.

I actually feel very positive about Edinburgh’s prospects post-Cockerill. The club has some outstanding players — a back row of Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie and Bill Mata would be the envy of any club — and they will feel invigorated and energised by the appointment of a new coach. In their new ground they will become a fine team to watch.

Hopefully, some of the habits he instilled will remain, and the foundations he laid are solid; the players will continue to value internal discipline creating an environment where high standards are demanded, whilst always understanding that mistakes are part of the game.

Cockers insisted on high standards and professionalism and many of Edinburgh’s players will feel the benefit of playing under him for years to come.

This feels like a second chance for some players. Rugby careers are short and it is important to ensure you squeeze every drop of enjoyment out of it along the way. Of course there are hard spells, and drops in form, and teams struggle. But it’s still meant to be fun. And for too many years Edinburgh hasn’t been a fun place to work.

[robmatic]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

Grim reading. You have to wonder how much of that the SRU were aware of, and ask why less than a year ago they provided a contract extension. To be honest, that has bullying claim written all over it.

A year ago, Cockerill was getting the results on the pitch and getting plenty of positive press attention. The SRU were probably quite happy with him to continue simply on that basis.

[KingBlairhorn]

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

Grim reading. You have to wonder how much of that the SRU were aware of, and ask why less than a year ago they provided a contract extension. To be honest, that has bullying claim written all over it.

A year ago, Cockerill was getting the results on the pitch and getting plenty of positive press attention. The SRU were probably quite happy with him to continue simply on that basis.

If you are correct, that the SRU were aware that the players were largely unhappy and that there was a culture of bullying, but were happy to continue because results were good then that is damning.

[I like neeps]

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

Grim reading. You have to wonder how much of that the SRU were aware of, and ask why less than a year ago they provided a contract extension. To be honest, that has bullying claim written all over it.

A year ago, Cockerill was getting the results on the pitch and getting plenty of positive press attention. The SRU were probably quite happy with him to continue simply on that basis.

Also Cockerill, Dodson, Johnson/Mallinder all have a similar style of management.

[Biffer]

Cheers Slick

[Slick]

My take on Lions selection for the first test:

Probables:
Price: Definitely the best 9 on tour on form. If AWJ starts, I think Price does too. I think both are likely. His speed of service and quality of pass have both been brilliant, as has the accuracy of his box kick. He is not necessarily the best performer in every stat, but he is the most consistent performer across all the stats together. In the 15.

Hogg: Williams may be 'better under the high ball' than Hogg, but I think Hogg offers too much else for him not to be in the team. In particular his huge boot will be crucial, as will be his ability to step in to provide another option at either first or second receiver. In the 15.

Sutherland: A bit of an odd one. I don't think he is necessarily a stand out compared with the other potential test starter (Wyn Jones), but I believe Furlong hasn't played more than a few minutes with any other loosehead. It seems unlikely to me that Gatland would start a completely untested partnership in the first test. In the 15.

Watson: Has answered every criticism thrown at him, has been outstanding every match thus far. Despite the calls for Curry from the English fans/media (and Curry is an outstanding player), I think Mish will start. His ball carrying has been brilliant, he has been excellent at the breakdown and his mobility has been outstanding. These are all attributes I think Gatland will be looking for in his test 7. If he doesn't start (for me only Curry has a case to take the 7 jersey from him) he will be in the 23.

Possibles:
Harris: Defensively excellent, and has shown up plenty in attack too. I think that Gatland will go with Henshaw at 12 and Aki at 13 for the first test though (despite form), mostly due to their test level familiarity with each other. There is no way in hell, in my opinion, that Daly makes the starting 15 - he is a liability in defence. In the 15 or doesn't make the 23. For me, he will fail to make the 23.

Duhan: He has been genuinely excellent on this tour and I think will justifiably consider himself extremely unlucky when he probably fails to make the 23. I think his weakness under the high ball, his inability to kick and the concerns about his defensive positioning will all see him miss out, probably to Watson. In the 15 or doesn't make the 23. For me, he will fail to make the 23.

Dirt Trackers:
Fagerson - not been bad, but not been outstanding at any point either. He's been unfortunate that he's been partnered at times with Mako having a stinker, but he has also made plenty of other mistakes himself that are enough to put him as 3rd choice. It will have been an excellent learning experience for him though, and I expect him to be back in 4 years. Having the chance to work with Furlong, IMO a strong candidate for best tighthead in the world, will have been invaluable.

Not Considered:
Russel

Good post. Agree with all of that except I think Harris might edge into the probables camp, although I wouldn't bet anything on it.

[Jock42]

Nice one Slick

[Big D]

It was absolutely savage.

Main takeaways - Cockers made all the decisions from the sidelines and players were so scared of making a bad decision or mistake due to Monday review slagging matches they were totally robotic.

The players were miserable and had no fun at all in the set up. Wanted him out a while ago.

Youth development was totally non existent and the environment was so bad for youth players because no responsibility was given and they'd be harrangued for mistakes. Some disliked it so much they've left rugby completely. An example could be Hugh Fraser who went from under20 world cup to not even playing prem/super6 after one preseason with Cockers.

There was absolutely no attempt to even try a plan B.

Barclay essentially said he overstayed his welcome two years.

Grim reading. You have to wonder how much of that the SRU were aware of, and ask why less than a year ago they provided a contract extension. To be honest, that has bullying claim written all over it.

A year ago, Cockerill was getting the results on the pitch and getting plenty of positive press attention. The SRU were probably quite happy with him to continue simply on that basis.

A fan of Cockers would argue that Barclay is a player who had his nose put out of joint by RC over the leadership group and has been wanting to let rip at him for the last year.

Those of us on the other side of the fence would happily use this as evidence as to why RC should have went sooner.

[Begbie]

Price, Hogg and IrnDu to start, Mish and Suzz on the bench *stolen from the Thistle Pods tweet based on an article by Alex Lowe in the Times.

[Soapy]

What seems odd about picking Daly at 13 is that Townsend and Tandy have set their stall out based on a strong defensive 13 yet statistically the worst defensive performer in the Lions squad is starting at 13 on Sat? On that basis Huw Jones should have been a shoe-in for Lions 13! Or it’s all Gatland’s call.

[JM2K6]

It's more that we've seen almost nothing in attack from all the other centre options, which was somewhat surprising.

[Soapy]

It's more that we've seen almost nothing in attack from all the other centre options, which was somewhat surprising.

Not surprising there was limited flair given the initial squad selection. Inconsistency or lack of planning to have gone with Farrell, Aki, Henshaw, Harris and Daly as the touring picks and then decide the main criteria for Test selection is flair rather than solidity or physicality.

[Yr Alban]

Well, given the 20 years we’ve had, I can certainly live with 3 starters and 2 on the bench. Particularly pleased that Hogg gets to be a Test Lion, as nobody deserves it more. I am frustrated about Mish, as I can’t see what Curry has done to get selected ahead of him, but then both he and Sutherland will get on and will be Test Lions too.

[JM2K6]

It's more that we've seen almost nothing in attack from all the other centre options, which was somewhat surprising.

Not surprising there was limited flair given the initial squad selection. Inconsistency or lack of planning to have gone with Farrell, Aki, Henshaw, Harris and Daly as the touring picks and then decide the main criteria for Test selection is flair rather than solidity or physicality.

I sort of agree but I think all those players have shown attacking ability over the years. Henshaw and Aki might not be the most creative centres but the former in particular has proven very difficult for defences to deal with in the past. We just haven't seen anything from these guys on tour, it's been pretty desperate stuff.

Like Jamie Roberts was never going to win any awards for his sleight of hand, but he tore the Boks a new one last time. Aki and Henshaw have managed to offer something far below their international best.

[JM2K6]

Well, given the 20 years we’ve had, I can certainly live with 3 starters and 2 on the bench. Particularly pleased that Hogg gets to be a Test Lion, as nobody deserves it more. I am frustrated about Mish, as I can’t see what Curry has done to get selected ahead of him, but then both he and Sutherland will get on and will be Test Lions too.

It could be a simple as he's chosen his biggest tacklers and best lineout options on the flanks.

[HKCJ]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

The news that Richard Cockerill has left his job as Edinburgh head coach caught many on the hop, but I was far from surprised to hear that the former England hooker had gone. Frankly, the only surprise is that he lasted as long as he did.

It has to be said that Cockers made some positive changes when he came into the job four years ago. At that time Edinburgh were seen as listless, rudderless and with a soft underbelly. There was a sense of complacency about the club, with players seemingly believing that playing professional rugby was enough and that winning was optional. There was no sense of common purpose with a lacklustre approach to standards.

So Edinburgh needed someone like Cockers back in 2017. They needed a firm, even autocratic leader. What they did not need was for him to hang around being firm and autocratic after he had knocked them into shape. He was an agent of positive change at the start, but he was a malign presence thereafter.

My two seasons under Cockers were a tough experience. A snapped achilles didn’t help, but my biggest frustration was not being able or allowed to contribute more to the team or put my experience — I had been a pro for more than 13 years when I joined — to good use. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I will be the first to admit it. But even during my brief time, the feeling of unrest and of an unsustainable environment was clear.

Cockers is an old-school coach, and you cannot help but admire his tenacity to stick to what he knows. “This is how we play and I won’t apologise for it” was the party line. He shouts, he rages, which is fine, if it is serving a greater intention. Embarrassing players before their peers never serves a team well however. Demanding total control — of everything — has the same effect. His eye for detail and his unrelenting focus on them is why he makes a difference at clubs. However this positive when overplayed turns into a vice.

Players need to drive the team with coaches guiding from the sides. Leaders should make leaders, creating a succession of leaders for the future, a continuity plan leaving a legacy of leaders. In this autocratic environment, I found little evidence of this. Decisions on the pitch were communicated from the sidelines. Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players.

There are times when team meetings should be tense and the riot act needs reading. This became the norm however and team meetings were far from pleasant affairs with players constantly reminded that they had failed, not a healthy landscape for the exchanges of ideas that characterises many successful teams.

When problems occurred in games, as was the norm, we would look to the sidelines for answers. The environment he created did not allow players to read a situation, take a game by the scruff of the neck, make bold and brave decisions and drive a team on. Players (who showed themselves to be perfectly adaptable playing for Scotland) had no option but to fall in line when the bombs were going off and nobody stuck their head above the parapet for fear of being ripped to shreds the following Monday.

In modern times rugby clubs have evolved like most professional sports and a more integrated/collegiate approach is more common. A shared leadership model is the norm with a flatter hierarchy. Modern coaches seeing the value of the environment and the greater picture; creating a common goal and higher purpose empowers a team, strengthening the bonds within. Coaches learn from players and vice versa. Players are no longer used to — and no longer accepting of — being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not. Players are involved throughout. Senior player groups work with coaches.

Under Cockers, Edinburgh developed a style based on being tough up front, well disciplined and physical. He undoubtedly did this, making Edinburgh a tough team to beat.

I joined Edinburgh off the back of playing against them for Scarlets and recognising just how much the team had improved in their physicality and discipline alone. It worked against some teams and it brought some respect, but it was inflexible and was snail paced to evolve. Against bigger sides that plan A was found out and there was no plan B to turn to. Edinburgh’s record in knockout games under Cockers was terrible.

It was no surprise that rumours of player unrest began to trickle out last season. Cockers had arguably lost the dressing room years before. Young players who had grown up dreaming of playing professional rugby faced a grim reality with Cockers. Some thrived under it; players that enjoyed the hard line approach. Some players need an arm around them at their lowest ebbs. That arm was never going to be forthcoming.

A few departed, disillusioned, with no plan ever to play rugby again. Promising players were made to feel peripheral. Rory Darge hardly got a look-in under Cockers and has been sensational since his move to Glasgow. Callum Hunter-Hill was another who was given little game time but he has since become a regular starter with Saracens. Rory Sutherland was languishing in the ranks of amateur rugby but 18 months ago. Gregor Townsend saw his potential, trusted him and empowered him to go and play. Now look where he is.

I actually feel very positive about Edinburgh’s prospects post-Cockerill. The club has some outstanding players — a back row of Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie and Bill Mata would be the envy of any club — and they will feel invigorated and energised by the appointment of a new coach. In their new ground they will become a fine team to watch.

Hopefully, some of the habits he instilled will remain, and the foundations he laid are solid; the players will continue to value internal discipline creating an environment where high standards are demanded, whilst always understanding that mistakes are part of the game.

Cockers insisted on high standards and professionalism and many of Edinburgh’s players will feel the benefit of playing under him for years to come.

This feels like a second chance for some players. Rugby careers are short and it is important to ensure you squeeze every drop of enjoyment out of it along the way. Of course there are hard spells, and drops in form, and teams struggle. But it’s still meant to be fun. And for too many years Edinburgh hasn’t been a fun place to work.

Fcuk me.. I started reading that piece and reads as if you’d played professionally for Edinburgh and were having a personal moan up. Was very confused conflating the man who can’t run 5k with a professional athlete. ;)

[SomersetJock]

Just read Stephen Ferris is the latest “expert” calling Duhan’s defence into question, it really does seem to annoy certain people in the rugby world when we unearth a gem of a player

Apparently he won’t be able to deal with Kolbe, like there is anyone out there who is able to

Hey, Somerset - have you made it up here yet?

Hi Yr Alban, sure have. Have had a few issues with my login for this page.

Now a resident of Colwyn Bay

[Yr Alban]

Anyone read Barclay's piece in the Times? I haven't, because I'm not giving money to Murdoch but apparently he doesn't hold back. If anyone can give us the highlights...

The news that Richard Cockerill has left his job as Edinburgh head coach caught many on the hop, but I was far from surprised to hear that the former England hooker had gone. Frankly, the only surprise is that he lasted as long as he did.

It has to be said that Cockers made some positive changes when he came into the job four years ago. At that time Edinburgh were seen as listless, rudderless and with a soft underbelly. There was a sense of complacency about the club, with players seemingly believing that playing professional rugby was enough and that winning was optional. There was no sense of common purpose with a lacklustre approach to standards.

So Edinburgh needed someone like Cockers back in 2017. They needed a firm, even autocratic leader. What they did not need was for him to hang around being firm and autocratic after he had knocked them into shape. He was an agent of positive change at the start, but he was a malign presence thereafter.

My two seasons under Cockers were a tough experience. A snapped achilles didn’t help, but my biggest frustration was not being able or allowed to contribute more to the team or put my experience — I had been a pro for more than 13 years when I joined — to good use. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I will be the first to admit it. But even during my brief time, the feeling of unrest and of an unsustainable environment was clear.

Cockers is an old-school coach, and you cannot help but admire his tenacity to stick to what he knows. “This is how we play and I won’t apologise for it” was the party line. He shouts, he rages, which is fine, if it is serving a greater intention. Embarrassing players before their peers never serves a team well however. Demanding total control — of everything — has the same effect. His eye for detail and his unrelenting focus on them is why he makes a difference at clubs. However this positive when overplayed turns into a vice.

Players need to drive the team with coaches guiding from the sides. Leaders should make leaders, creating a succession of leaders for the future, a continuity plan leaving a legacy of leaders. In this autocratic environment, I found little evidence of this. Decisions on the pitch were communicated from the sidelines. Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players.

There are times when team meetings should be tense and the riot act needs reading. This became the norm however and team meetings were far from pleasant affairs with players constantly reminded that they had failed, not a healthy landscape for the exchanges of ideas that characterises many successful teams.

When problems occurred in games, as was the norm, we would look to the sidelines for answers. The environment he created did not allow players to read a situation, take a game by the scruff of the neck, make bold and brave decisions and drive a team on. Players (who showed themselves to be perfectly adaptable playing for Scotland) had no option but to fall in line when the bombs were going off and nobody stuck their head above the parapet for fear of being ripped to shreds the following Monday.

In modern times rugby clubs have evolved like most professional sports and a more integrated/collegiate approach is more common. A shared leadership model is the norm with a flatter hierarchy. Modern coaches seeing the value of the environment and the greater picture; creating a common goal and higher purpose empowers a team, strengthening the bonds within. Coaches learn from players and vice versa. Players are no longer used to — and no longer accepting of — being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not. Players are involved throughout. Senior player groups work with coaches.

Under Cockers, Edinburgh developed a style based on being tough up front, well disciplined and physical. He undoubtedly did this, making Edinburgh a tough team to beat.

I joined Edinburgh off the back of playing against them for Scarlets and recognising just how much the team had improved in their physicality and discipline alone. It worked against some teams and it brought some respect, but it was inflexible and was snail paced to evolve. Against bigger sides that plan A was found out and there was no plan B to turn to. Edinburgh’s record in knockout games under Cockers was terrible.

It was no surprise that rumours of player unrest began to trickle out last season. Cockers had arguably lost the dressing room years before. Young players who had grown up dreaming of playing professional rugby faced a grim reality with Cockers. Some thrived under it; players that enjoyed the hard line approach. Some players need an arm around them at their lowest ebbs. That arm was never going to be forthcoming.

A few departed, disillusioned, with no plan ever to play rugby again. Promising players were made to feel peripheral. Rory Darge hardly got a look-in under Cockers and has been sensational since his move to Glasgow. Callum Hunter-Hill was another who was given little game time but he has since become a regular starter with Saracens. Rory Sutherland was languishing in the ranks of amateur rugby but 18 months ago. Gregor Townsend saw his potential, trusted him and empowered him to go and play. Now look where he is.

I actually feel very positive about Edinburgh’s prospects post-Cockerill. The club has some outstanding players — a back row of Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie and Bill Mata would be the envy of any club — and they will feel invigorated and energised by the appointment of a new coach. In their new ground they will become a fine team to watch.

Hopefully, some of the habits he instilled will remain, and the foundations he laid are solid; the players will continue to value internal discipline creating an environment where high standards are demanded, whilst always understanding that mistakes are part of the game.

Cockers insisted on high standards and professionalism and many of Edinburgh’s players will feel the benefit of playing under him for years to come.

This feels like a second chance for some players. Rugby careers are short and it is important to ensure you squeeze every drop of enjoyment out of it along the way. Of course there are hard spells, and drops in form, and teams struggle. But it’s still meant to be fun. And for too many years Edinburgh hasn’t been a fun place to work.

Fcuk me.. I started reading that piece and reads as if you’d played professionally for Edinburgh and were having a personal moan up. Was very confused conflating the man who can’t run 5k with a professional athlete. ;)

I’m glad it wasn’t just me who thought that!

[Yr Alban]

Just read Stephen Ferris is the latest “expert” calling Duhan’s defence into question, it really does seem to annoy certain people in the rugby world when we unearth a gem of a player

Apparently he won’t be able to deal with Kolbe, like there is anyone out there who is able to

Hey, Somerset - have you made it up here yet?

Hi Yr Alban, sure have. Have had a few issues with my login for this page.

Now a resident of Colwyn Bay

Croeso i Gymru!

I was going to just buy a Now TV pass for Saturday (cancelled Sky Sports a while ago) but do you want to revive the pub idea?

[Slick]

Fcuk me.. I started reading that piece and reads as if you’d played professionally for Edinburgh and were having a personal moan up. Was very confused conflating the man who can’t run 5k with a professional athlete. ;)

You are a very rude man and for that I'm going to beat you in this half marathon.

In 7 weeks.

Up to 6K now

shit.

[Yr Alban]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-21105063

Oh, my word. The bitterness here at Hogg getting the nod over Williams is just off the charts. Another mention for getting benched by Exeter. Multiple mentions of high balls. Every word rings with entitled disbelief. Just inject it in my veins.

They are happy enough with Price, and accept that Duhan has played well even though they wanted Adams. But they REALLY don’t like Williams losing out to Hogg.

[ASMO]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-21105063

Oh, my word. The bitterness here at Hogg getting the nod over Williams is just off the charts. Another mention for getting benched by Exeter. Multiple mentions of high balls. Every word rings with entitled disbelief. Just inject it in my veins.

They are happy enough with Price, and accept that Duhan has played well even though they wanted Adams. But they REALLY don’t like Williams losing out to Hogg.

i am not getting all the love for filthy Liam, he has not set the tour on fire, and in fact looks like he has lost a yard or 2 of pace, agreed Hogg hasnt exactly pulled up trees either, but he offers more all round capability.

[Yr Alban]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-21105063

Oh, my word. The bitterness here at Hogg getting the nod over Williams is just off the charts. Another mention for getting benched by Exeter. Multiple mentions of high balls. Every word rings with entitled disbelief. Just inject it in my veins.

They are happy enough with Price, and accept that Duhan has played well even though they wanted Adams. But they REALLY don’t like Williams losing out to Hogg.

i am not getting all the love for filthy Liam, he has not set the tour on fire, and in fact looks like he has lost a yard or 2 of pace, agreed Hogg hasnt exactly pulled up trees either, but he offers more all round capability.

It’s a Welsh thing, I think. I’ve read a lot about Hogg not having done enough to ‘displace’ Williams, assuming that the latter is the default option. Whereas the likelihood is that Hogg would have been starting 15 in NZ if he hadn’t had to go home injured.

[Slick]

I like the odd, very begrudging, one liner thrown in to try and make it sound balanced. Doesn't work

[Jock42]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-21105063

Oh, my word. The bitterness here at Hogg getting the nod over Williams is just off the charts. Another mention for getting benched by Exeter. Multiple mentions of high balls. Every word rings with entitled disbelief. Just inject it in my veins.

They are happy enough with Price, and accept that Duhan has played well even though they wanted Adams. But they REALLY don’t like Williams losing out to Hogg.

i am not getting all the love for filthy Liam, he has not set the tour on fire, and in fact looks like he has lost a yard or 2 of pace, agreed Hogg hasnt exactly pulled up trees either, but he offers more all round capability.

I think Hoggs leadership is overlooked as well. Maybe not as obvious for the Lions but he's a different person to a few years back.

[Biffer]

Some of the comments on that article are hilarious. Particularly the 'too many Scots coaches so our guys aren't getting picked' style ones, from people who would have told you there was no pro Welsh picks when Gatland was HC of Wales and took Howley and Edwards with him to the Lions.

[KingBlairhorn]

Hogg was 'dropped' and only played 13 times for Exeter in the league. He should clearly be dropped for Williams who played *checks notes* twice for Scarlets in the league this year.

[SaintK]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

[Big D]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

A bit.

[Jock42]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

You know where you are? We don't go for a chip on the shoulder, we have the full fish supper.

[Yr Alban]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

I didn’t share it to be precious. I shared it to laugh at them!

[Slick]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

Yes, probably.

But it's not just them, here is the Walrus in todays Times

Most in the travelling collective here would have gone, every time, for the man known as the bomb-defuser, Liam Williams. To discover that Williams was fit to play caused bewilderment. He is arguably the greatest player the sport has seen when the ball is in the air, and the catcher has to go aerial to catch it.

Hogg tends to stand off the high ball then rush in and leap, sometimes the ball cannons off him. Williams has an extraordinary standing leap, tends to be up there high and waiting, and so cradles the ball, embraces it more softly. He is also the toughest man to play who otherwise looks like a choirboy.

I think a lot of are quite protective about Hogg having watched his journey.

[KingBlairhorn]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

Yes, probably.

But it's not just them, here is the Walrus in todays Times

Most in the travelling collective here would have gone, every time, for the man known as the bomb-defuser, Liam Williams. To discover that Williams was fit to play caused bewilderment. He is arguably the greatest player the sport has seen when the ball is in the air, and the catcher has to go aerial to catch it.

Hogg tends to stand off the high ball then rush in and leap, sometimes the ball cannons off him. Williams has an extraordinary standing leap, tends to be up there high and waiting, and so cradles the ball, embraces it more softly. He is also the toughest man to play who otherwise looks like a choirboy.

I think a lot of are quite protective about Hogg having watched his journey.

Clearly thinking of his own balls there.

[Yr Alban]

FFS lads!! Aren't you all getting a bit precious about this?
It's WalesOnline for crying out loud

Yes, probably.

But it's not just them, here is the Walrus in todays Times

Most in the travelling collective here would have gone, every time, for the man known as the bomb-defuser, Liam Williams. To discover that Williams was fit to play caused bewilderment. He is arguably the greatest player the sport has seen when the ball is in the air, and the catcher has to go aerial to catch it.

Hogg tends to stand off the high ball then rush in and leap, sometimes the ball cannons off him. Williams has an extraordinary standing leap, tends to be up there high and waiting, and so cradles the ball, embraces it more softly. He is also the toughest man to play who otherwise looks like a choirboy.

I think a lot of are quite protective about Hogg having watched his journey.

His salty tears are especially delicious.

I’m assuming that the ‘travelling collective consists of him, Welsh journalists and ex-England players, because everyone else would pick Hogg every time because he’s the better player. This obsession with high balls is because that’s literally the only thing at which Williams is clearly superior, but there’s a bit more to playing at 15 than that. I said it above - Hogg would have started the tests 4 years ago if he had been fit.

In other news: if you’d told me in January that we’d have 3 starters in the first Test, I’d have been delighted. I’d also have been utterly astonished to learn that one of them would be Ali Price.