The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Yr Alban]

Welp. Had a good time watching the game with Somersetjock.

Pretty awful game though, and it’s hard to argue that none of our players did themselves justice. Though I’m not sure anyone wearing red did.

After being one of the better performers under the high ball last week, Hogg had exactly the sort of game today that his Welsh and Irish detractors wanted to see. I suspect he and Duhan will both be dropped, even though Watson was no better. I am mystified as to why Duhan has been picked to play given there is clearly no intention to actually give him the ball.

However, if we’re dropping Hogg and VdM, Price has to start (Murray was abysmal) and Watson should get his chance (Curry did absolutely nothing all game).

Agreed on that assessment, but I’d add Biggar to the list of those who had very poor games. I would be surprised to see wholesale changes though, there’s no evidence any of the others will do any better and there are no second chances now. Perhaps one or two changes will be made, Hogg and Murray the main candidates for me.

The big thing that *does* need to change is the gameplan.

I guess Gats has made wholesale changes for a third Test in the past, but that was to bring in the Welsh lads he trusted.

Yesterday’s game was crying out for a creative 10. Give the Boks something to think about, rather than trying to beat them in an arm-wrestle. But dropping Biggar for Russell or Smith just isn’t something I can see happening.

TBH I could live with all the other Scots getting the chop if they went with Price/Russell at 9/10. Though it would be somewhat ironic if they dropped VdM whilst vastly increasing the chances of him being able to run with the ball.

[SomersetJock]

Welp. Had a good time watching the game with Somersetjock.

Pretty awful game though, and it’s hard to argue that none of our players did themselves justice. Though I’m not sure anyone wearing red did.

After being one of the better performers under the high ball last week, Hogg had exactly the sort of game today that his Welsh and Irish detractors wanted to see. I suspect he and Duhan will both be dropped, even though Watson was no better. I am mystified as to why Duhan has been picked to play given there is clearly no intention to actually give him the ball.

However, if we’re dropping Hogg and VdM, Price has to start (Murray was abysmal) and Watson should get his chance (Curry did absolutely nothing all game).

Very pleasant afternoon watching the match with a like minded person who has also suffered the pain of being a Scotland fan over the years . An afternoon to be repeated.

Have to agree with all you say, although no surprise there as we were formulating those opinions together in the pub yesterday

For me 9/10 is a real problem with absolutely no line breaking plays coming from them. I know they didn’t get much clean fast ball from the forwards but there was nothing the entire game. Box kicks are only good if they are executed properly and the chasers commit. What we saw yesterday just wasn’t working.

Someone like Finn or Smith would give us a chance of at least making some gains with ball in hand but I don’t think there is any chance of either of them getting near the 23 next week.

And if Hoggy and or Duhan do miss out next week then I don’t think either can complain after yesterday. But I do think the system being played isn’t playing to the strengths of the outside backs that are being picked, which is utter madness.

[SaintK]

Welp. Had a good time watching the game with Somersetjock.

Pretty awful game though, and it’s hard to argue that none of our players did themselves justice. Though I’m not sure anyone wearing red did.

After being one of the better performers under the high ball last week, Hogg had exactly the sort of game today that his Welsh and Irish detractors wanted to see. I suspect he and Duhan will both be dropped, even though Watson was no better. I am mystified as to why Duhan has been picked to play given there is clearly no intention to actually give him the ball.

However, if we’re dropping Hogg and VdM, Price has to start (Murray was abysmal) and Watson should get his chance (Curry did absolutely nothing all game).

Very pleasant afternoon watching the match with a like minded person who has also suffered the pain of being a Scotland fan over the years . An afternoon to be repeated.

Have to agree with all you say, although no surprise there as we were formulating those opinions together in the pub yesterday

For me 9/10 is a real problem with absolutely no line breaking plays coming from them. I know they didn’t get much clean fast ball from the forwards but there was nothing the entire game. Box kicks are only good if they are executed properly and the chasers commit. What we saw yesterday just wasn’t working.

Someone like Finn or Smith would give us a chance of at least making some gains with ball in hand but I don’t think there is any chance of either of them getting near the 23 next week.

And if Hoggy and or Duhan do miss out next week then I don’t think either can complain after yesterday. But I do think the system being played isn’t playing to the strengths of the outside backs that are being picked, which is utter madness.

Agreed
I stopped watching with 10 to go as I'd had enough. Bad game plan poorly executed and so many unforced errors.
There needs a achange of game plan as well as personnel.

[I like neeps]

It's not Hogg's game either - he's best as a counter attacker and playmaker. He can kick really well but his weakness perhaps is under the high ball.

Think Price does have to start I agree, would like to see Watson out there as Curry hasn't been noticeable in the two games but wouldn't put it past Gatland to start Navidi.

Not really sure why Townsend is there. Biggar only passed 3 times yesterday - why agree to coach attack if there is no attack? Granted covid mothballed our tour but if that's the lions product think he may as well stayed with Scotland.

[Big D]

Russell has only 90min of rugby in him in 8 weeks.

I'd almost rather he just focuses on being right for next season. He's on a hiding to nothing if he gets a start and looks rusty which would.be understandable.

[Yr Alban]

Russell has only 90min of rugby in him in 8 weeks.

I'd almost rather he just focuses on being right for next season. He's on a hiding to nothing if he gets a start and looks rusty which would.be understandable.

He would also end up carrying the can if the Lions lose. The worst part of yesterday was the rush to blame Hogg, as if he were the only player to underperform.

We’re probably a bit precious about Hogg - I know I am - because he was the first proper star we had had in years, and was at his attacking peak when he was injured on tour 4 years ago, so we were desperate for him to get his chance. But part of me wants Williams to displace him and be just as underwhelming, just to prove the point.

I want Russell to start if he is the right man for the game plan, but otherwise I’d prefer he stayed fit.

[dkm57]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

[KingBlairhorn]

It's not Hogg's game either - he's best as a counter attacker and playmaker. He can kick really well but his weakness perhaps is under the high ball.

Think Price does have to start I agree, would like to see Watson out there as Curry hasn't been noticeable in the two games but wouldn't put it past Gatland to start Navidi.

Not really sure why Townsend is there. Biggar only passed 3 times yesterday - why agree to coach attack if there is no attack? Granted covid mothballed our tour but if that's the lions product think he may as well stayed with Scotland.

Well there’s a single stat that tells a whole story!

[robmatic]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

Fantini? Where did they find him? He was quite lively, would have been a fair shout for man of the match.

Millar was quite canny with his kicking for Watsonians, he's got that 50/22 rule figured out.

[Begbie]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

Fantini? Where did they find him? He was quite lively, would have been a fair shout for man of the match.

Millar was quite canny with his kicking for Watsonians, he's got that 50/22 rule figured out.

I think Fantini was in the England 7s set up.

[Yr Alban]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

Fantini? Where did they find him? He was quite lively, would have been a fair shout for man of the match.

Millar was quite canny with his kicking for Watsonians, he's got that 50/22 rule figured out.

I think Fantini was in the England 7s set up.

Googled him and he comes up as a ‘university player’. Though there’s also an image that purports to show him playing for Wales. Assuming that’s an error. I guess he isn’t SQ then…

[I like neeps]

Yeah Fantini and Millar probably the better players on the pitch.

I am disappointed fringe pro players such as Ollie Smith for Ayrshire and Connor Boyle for Sonians didn't play.

[Slick]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

Fantini? Where did they find him? He was quite lively, would have been a fair shout for man of the match.

Millar was quite canny with his kicking for Watsonians, he's got that 50/22 rule figured out.

Was he the black guy? I only managed to watch 10 minutes and he was everywhere

[dkm57]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

Fantini? Where did they find him? He was quite lively, would have been a fair shout for man of the match.

Millar was quite canny with his kicking for Watsonians, he's got that 50/22 rule figured out.

Was he the black guy? I only managed to watch 10 minutes and he was everywhere

That's the guy was everywhere for the whole 80

[Yr Alban]

Rugby Twitter absolutely stuffed full of people wanting to blame Saturday on Hogg. I’d entirely agree that he and VDM had a poor game, but so did pretty much everyone else on the team. Why put all the blame on two members of the back 3 when Biggar only passed the ball 3 times?

I don’t want to go down the paranoid rabbit hole, but it really does seem that most of the criticism comes from Irish and Welsh fans, who have grown complacent and used to being over-represented at Scottish players’ expense. Now they have to share again and they don’t like it.

[JM2K6]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

[Slick]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Unfortunately, that is the honest answer.

What is unedifying is that although we are meant to be a B & I team for these few weeks, the Welsh and Irish have been praying for that to happen.

I’m honestly done with the Lions

[Jock42]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Unfortunately, that is the honest answer.

What is unedifying is that although we are meant to be a B & I team for these few weeks, the Welsh and Irish have been praying for that to happen.

I’m honestly done with the Lions

I still love them tbh. What I'm getting very tired of is the parochial attitudes on here. On top of that there's the absolute abomination that the last match thread has become. I genuinely can't tell if it's serious or not, either way it's fucking tedious. It's a pity it's come to this as there's usually some decent rugby chaff on here that I can't in the real world.

[Yr Alban]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Two points. Firstly, if you get pinged for holding on while returning a kick in the middle of the park, that’s because the rest of your team failed to get to the breakdown and support you quickly enough. Secondly, it’s a bit unfair to say someone was a ‘no-show’ in attack when he was given next to no ball to attack with. What was he supposed to do, exactly?

I am not saying they played well. They didn’t. But the entire team was abysmal. I gave pass marks to Henshaw and Furlong (in the loose at least) and maybe Harris, who didn’t do a lot but didn’t screw up either. But the knives are out for Scottish players, and only Scottish players. Let’s ignore the fact that the Lions were dominated in the scrum, that the back row were so anonymous I forgot Curry was even playing, that Murray’s service was so desperate he made Laidlaw look snappy.

[JM2K6]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Two points. Firstly, if you get pinged for holding on while returning a kick in the middle of the park, that’s because the rest of your team failed to get to the breakdown and support you quickly enough. Secondly, it’s a bit unfair to say someone was a ‘no-show’ in attack when he was given next to no ball to attack with. What was he supposed to do, exactly?

Hogg decided to run at times when it definitely wasn't on, got himself isolated and turned over. That's on him - he cannot expect teammates to be supporting him that quickly in the middle of kick tennis, because they're all ahead of him, and if he decides to take defenders on and fails to beat them (11 carries for 19m(!) and one defender beaten(!!)) then that's a problem of his own creation.

Secondly, VDM can look for work, that's what he can do. He can look to be the guy chasing and tackling (he made one and missed on all game). He can look to be offering himself closer to the rucks and the forwards. He can catch a ball and run it back. He didn't do this, so he gets criticised. The most notable thing he did all game was boot Kolbe. The second most notable thing was a dangerous lifting tackle. The third most notable thing was a miss of a high ball so bad I actually burst out laughing.

I am not saying they played well. They didn’t. But the entire team was abysmal. I gave pass marks to Henshaw and Furlong (in the loose at least) and maybe Harris, who didn’t do a lot but didn’t screw up either. But the knives are out for Scottish players, and only Scottish players. Let’s ignore the fact that the Lions were dominated in the scrum, that the back row were so anonymous I forgot Curry was even playing, that Murray’s service was so desperate he made Laidlaw look snappy.

Hogg and VDM had particularly bad games, that's all there is to it. I'm sure there's some weird nationalist battle going over on PR but I don't post there any more so I don't really care. What I do see is a lot of Scottish posters refusing to admit when players have been really poor. I get the need to be defensive over players you've been battling for for so long. But the difference between Hogg's high-profile howlers and Curry making his tackles and not having much impact with ball in hand is pretty stark, especially considering the attacking game plan essentially reduced the pack to just setting up rucks for clearing kicks for the majority of the game and instead made Hogg & co centre stage.

It was obvious at half time that Hogg and VDM were having high profile stinkers. If Curry had dropped a load of ball, given away a load of penalties, and gotten himself binned for some desperately stupid thuggery, then he'd have been criticised. As it was, he did some of that last week and copped flak for it...

[Slick]

Ahh now you see, that’s where i disagree.

The open side should be pretty much the most visible player on the pitch, possibly after 9 & 10, but he wasn’t, he was nowhere all match.

Compare to Kolisi who was everywhere whilst playing pretty much the same tactics. I’ve been very fair on the Curry/Watson debate but he has been bang average all tour and if we are talking changes that might make a difference, that is one

[Blackmac]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Unfortunately, that is the honest answer.

What is unedifying is that although we are meant to be a B & I team for these few weeks, the Welsh and Irish have been praying for that to happen.

I’m honestly done with the Lions

I still love them tbh. What I'm getting very tired of is the parochial attitudes on here. On top of that there's the absolute abomination that the last match thread has become. I genuinely can't tell if it's serious or not, either way it's fucking tedious. It's a pity it's come to this as there's usually some decent rugby chaff on here that I can't in the real world.

I'm much the same. Wanted to fall back in love with the Lions, but the sheer bile on both social media and mainstream media towards any Scottish player is disgusting. There seems to be an insane delight in wanting them to fail, whilst totally ignoring the failings of their own players. It is something I just don't ever see coming from Scottish supporters and completely fail to understand.

Last week the tone was that the Lions won despite the Scots, and this week it's that they only lost because of them.

I actually find a lot, not all, of the current English, Welsh and Irish rugby community to be pretty arrogant and unpleasent bedfellows and I am at the stage where the Lions is something I can completely do without.

[Jock42]

Yeah I completely understand why you would take that stance but I'm not letting those spunk trumpets put me off my team. It's the players I'm supporting not the wankstain supporters and pundits.

[Jock42]

I think this confirms I'm getting old. I even emailed my MP yesterday.

[JM2K6]

Ahh now you see, that’s where i disagree.

The open side should be pretty much the most visible player on the pitch, possibly after 9 & 10, but he wasn’t, he was nowhere all match.

Compare to Kolisi who was everywhere whilst playing pretty much the same tactics. I’ve been very fair on the Curry/Watson debate but he has been bang average all tour and if we are talking changes that might make a difference, that is one

Kolisi made some big carries and lots of tackles, good on him, but he also benefited from the Saffers at least being willing to try making some space and running the ball occasionally. However my point wasn't that Curry had a good game, more that it was a pretty average one (in the Aussie sense) that didn't include repeated errors and didn't involve damaging the very core of the only game plan the Lions had. More than happy for Watson to get a go, I was pissed off at him for failing to do anything good when he came on in the first Test but that was about a millions years ago at this point.

The gameplan will have to change if he isn't just going to be running around trying to tackle kick returners and being ordered to set up a ruck so we can kick again, mind.

[JM2K6]

Anyway, if I'm honest, if I were a Scot I'd rather the criticism came at a time like this, when the entire match was an abortion and no-one can be happy with how anyone played, rather than an Ugo Monye scenario where high profile errors cost a win in an otherwise good team performance. Gatland is fucking Teflon, which is amazing, and I can understand the intense frustration at players copping flak given the horrific coaching on display, but it's very much the shortest dwarf argument when talking about who was worst.

[Begbie]

I think this confirms I'm getting old. I even emailed my MP yesterday.

Who does he/she think should start in the back 3?

[I like neeps]

Hogg is a weird one - he'll be unplayable for a few years then just have a year or two where he's pretty mediocre.

I was concerned when Exeter dropped him for the knockouts something was wrong with his attitude. I sometimes think he wins Scotland games just by desire and being that on edge must also have it's negatives. I can believe he cares too much about the Lions after the last two tours going badly for him.

VdM also didn't ever seem to come looking for work at Edinburgh. Which I think many put down to Cockers/Hodge's gameplan as Townsend gets him involved often for Scotland. But maybe that's just who he is as a player.

It has been a poor test series for the Scots: Hogg had a decent game then a poor one, same for VdM. Sutherland has been very disappointing and Watson did nothing but get away with a clear yellow card.

Ali Price has been great though. Easily the best 9 the lions have. Easily.

[Jock42]

I think this confirms I'm getting old. I even emailed my MP yesterday.

Who does he/she think should start in the back 3?

It's Stewart Hosie so probably Hogg, VDM and Fagerson

[Yr Alban]

Unfortunately, that is the honest answer.

What is unedifying is that although we are meant to be a B & I team for these few weeks, the Welsh and Irish have been praying for that to happen.

I’m honestly done with the Lions

I still love them tbh. What I'm getting very tired of is the parochial attitudes on here. On top of that there's the absolute abomination that the last match thread has become. I genuinely can't tell if it's serious or not, either way it's fucking tedious. It's a pity it's come to this as there's usually some decent rugby chaff on here that I can't in the real world.

I'm much the same. Wanted to fall back in love with the Lions, but the sheer bile on both social media and mainstream media towards any Scottish player is disgusting. There seems to be an insane delight in wanting them to fail, whilst totally ignoring the failings of their own players. It is something I just don't ever see coming from Scottish supporters and completely fail to understand.

Last week the tone was that the Lions won despite the Scots, and this week it's that they only lost because of them.

I actually find a lot, not all, of the current English, Welsh and Irish rugby community to be pretty arrogant and unpleasent bedfellows and I am at the stage where the Lions is something I can completely do without.

Yes. This! We’ve had two decades of being almost completely shut out, and it’s hard to get on board if you don’t feel represented. This time we are, and I was ready to go all-in with my support. But it seems there are a lot of people out there who don’t think Scotland deserve to be part of the Lions, and who actively want the Scots on the tour to do badly. As you say, last week the win was despite the Scots, and this week the loss is because of them. What the hell happened to winning and losing as one?

[Yr Alban]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Two points. Firstly, if you get pinged for holding on while returning a kick in the middle of the park, that’s because the rest of your team failed to get to the breakdown and support you quickly enough. Secondly, it’s a bit unfair to say someone was a ‘no-show’ in attack when he was given next to no ball to attack with. What was he supposed to do, exactly?

Hogg decided to run at times when it definitely wasn't on, got himself isolated and turned over. That's on him - he cannot expect teammates to be supporting him that quickly in the middle of kick tennis, because they're all ahead of him, and if he decides to take defenders on and fails to beat them (11 carries for 19m(!) and one defender beaten(!!)) then that's a problem of his own creation.

Secondly, VDM can look for work, that's what he can do. He can look to be the guy chasing and tackling (he made one and missed on all game). He can look to be offering himself closer to the rucks and the forwards. He can catch a ball and run it back. He didn't do this, so he gets criticised. The most notable thing he did all game was boot Kolbe. The second most notable thing was a dangerous lifting tackle. The third most notable thing was a miss of a high ball so bad I actually burst out laughing.

I am not saying they played well. They didn’t. But the entire team was abysmal. I gave pass marks to Henshaw and Furlong (in the loose at least) and maybe Harris, who didn’t do a lot but didn’t screw up either. But the knives are out for Scottish players, and only Scottish players. Let’s ignore the fact that the Lions were dominated in the scrum, that the back row were so anonymous I forgot Curry was even playing, that Murray’s service was so desperate he made Laidlaw look snappy.

Hogg and VDM had particularly bad games, that's all there is to it. I'm sure there's some weird nationalist battle going over on PR but I don't post there any more so I don't really care. What I do see is a lot of Scottish posters refusing to admit when players have been really poor. I get the need to be defensive over players you've been battling for for so long. But the difference between Hogg's high-profile howlers and Curry making his tackles and not having much impact with ball in hand is pretty stark, especially considering the attacking game plan essentially reduced the pack to just setting up rucks for clearing kicks for the majority of the game and instead made Hogg & co centre stage.

It was obvious at half time that Hogg and VDM were having high profile stinkers. If Curry had dropped a load of ball, given away a load of penalties, and gotten himself binned for some desperately stupid thuggery, then he'd have been criticised. As it was, he did some of that last week and copped flak for it...

Here’s the thing. You’re presenting yourself as a voice of reason, but you’re displaying exactly what we’re complaining about. You’ve started with the assumption that getting pinged was Hogg’s fault, and you wave away any suggestion that he lacked support - which I’m sorry, but he bloody well did. He didn’t run away from his cover and isolate himself. He caught the ball, took it forward and took a tackle. He’s entitled to expect his teammates to hit the ruck, and they didn’t. You wouldn’t blame this on the tackled player in any other circumstances. And then you get pissy about any criticism of Curry, who did the square root of feck all all game.

It is not that we can’t admit our players played poorly. We do - all of us. Find me a single post that implies otherwise. What we object to is the implication that they were the only ones who played poorly, which is clearly bollocks.

[robmatic]

Watching Ayrshire Bulls playing Watsonians in the S6, more enjoyable than yesterday's BIL match. Ayr 7 is some player.

Fantini? Where did they find him? He was quite lively, would have been a fair shout for man of the match.

Millar was quite canny with his kicking for Watsonians, he's got that 50/22 rule figured out.

Was he the black guy? I only managed to watch 10 minutes and he was everywhere

That's the one. He's maybe a bit small for a forward but total nuisance at the breakdown by the looks of it.

[JM2K6]

I'm certain you've seen me pissy and it doesn't look like that!

Sorry, I can only say what I saw, which is Hogg making bad decisions on when to run and when to kick, getting turned over, and making a gigantic mess of his primary job in that game. I wasn't assuming anything, I was just watching: you don't run the ball if you lack support and aren't likely to make ground / a break.

My "defence" of curry is to point out he didn't make any errors, he just didn't have much impact. I'm not the one who brought him up to begin with!

[Yr Alban]

I'm certain you've seen me pissy and it doesn't look like that!

Sorry, I can only say what I saw, which is Hogg making bad decisions on when to run and when to kick, getting turned over, and making a gigantic mess of his primary job in that game. I wasn't assuming anything, I was just watching: you don't run the ball if you lack support and aren't likely to make ground / a break.

My "defence" of curry is to point out he didn't make any errors, he just didn't have much impact. I'm not the one who brought him up to begin with!

But that’s the exact point I’m making. He was bang in the middle of the field with plenty Lions players within range. If he lacked support, as you say, how is that his fault? He took a tackle and set up a ruck. Where were his team-mates?

Hogg does have form for trying too hard to force things when his team are under the cosh. This probably affected his decision-making when he finally got some ball (by catching it, rather than by getting a pass). However, I say again, I’m not claiming he had a good game, merely that he was one of 13+ players who had a bad one.

[JM2K6]

I'm certain you've seen me pissy and it doesn't look like that!

Sorry, I can only say what I saw, which is Hogg making bad decisions on when to run and when to kick, getting turned over, and making a gigantic mess of his primary job in that game. I wasn't assuming anything, I was just watching: you don't run the ball if you lack support and aren't likely to make ground / a break.

My "defence" of curry is to point out he didn't make any errors, he just didn't have much impact. I'm not the one who brought him up to begin with!

But that’s the exact point I’m making. He was bang in the middle of the field with plenty Lions players within range. If he lacked support, as you say, how is that his fault? He took a tackle and set up a ruck. Where were his team-mates?

Hogg does have form for trying too hard to force things when his team are under the cosh. This probably affected his decision-making when he finally got some ball (by catching it, rather than by getting a pass). However, I say again, I’m not claiming he had a good game, merely that he was one of 13+ players who had a bad one.

I think we're talking different scenarios, honestly.

I'm claiming he was particularly poor and because the game plan required a lot from him that it hurt the Lions very visibly, which is why he's getting so much flak, especially given his 6N form and his experience.

[Slick]

I'm certain you've seen me pissy and it doesn't look like that!

Sorry, I can only say what I saw, which is Hogg making bad decisions on when to run and when to kick, getting turned over, and making a gigantic mess of his primary job in that game. I wasn't assuming anything, I was just watching: you don't run the ball if you lack support and aren't likely to make ground / a break.

My "defence" of curry is to point out he didn't make any errors, he just didn't have much impact. I'm not the one who brought him up to begin with!

But that’s the exact point I’m making. He was bang in the middle of the field with plenty Lions players within range. If he lacked support, as you say, how is that his fault? He took a tackle and set up a ruck. Where were his team-mates?

Hogg does have form for trying too hard to force things when his team are under the cosh. This probably affected his decision-making when he finally got some ball (by catching it, rather than by getting a pass). However, I say again, I’m not claiming he had a good game, merely that he was one of 13+ players who had a bad one.

This hurts more than you will ever know, but I agree with JM here…

[Uncle fester]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Unfortunately, that is the honest answer.

What is unedifying is that although we are meant to be a B & I team for these few weeks, the Welsh and Irish have been praying for that to happen.

I’m honestly done with the Lions

Don't like posting in "your" thread but this needs to be snuffed out.

Most Irish wanted Price over Murray, were delighted he played well in first test and flabbergasted he was dropped for second test. Hopefully he gets picked for third test.

Sutherland was meh in first test. Vunipola was pretty good when he came on. Sutherland's penalty in second test was a clanger and took any remaining wind out of our sails. He'll probably get another chance to redeem himself.

VDM was pretty meh in first test and a liability in the second test. I'm on record as not being a fan as he is a bit one trick and if he's not being used for that, there's no point in picking him.

Daly was gash. Don't think anyone wants him back over Harris.

Defended Hogg after first test because he deserves his lions cap but he was woeful yesterday. He is a shadow of the player he used to be and I think he's carrying too much weight.

Don't confuse us with Welsh rugby Twitter.

[Jock42]

We're not, you're being confused with this melt

The attitude of the sweaties has been an embarrassment tbf.

[Slick]

If you want an honest answer, it's because once you get past getting angry at the gameplan itself, the execution of the game plan fell apart when we couldn't catch a fucking thing / gave away penalties when we tried to run it back (Hogg) and VDM's no-show of a performance in attack in conjunction with having no kicking game, being badly exposed when they did launch high balls at him, and his insane kicking of Kolbe (and the tip tackle) meant that they were very high profile howlers

That's not to say Watson was brilliant or that any player really deserved praise, but the game plan puts a lot of pressure on the back three and if two of them are particularly bad then they can expect criticism.

Unfortunately, that is the honest answer.

What is unedifying is that although we are meant to be a B & I team for these few weeks, the Welsh and Irish have been praying for that to happen.

I’m honestly done with the Lions

Don't like posting in "your" thread but this needs to be snuffed out.

Most Irish wanted Price over Murray, were delighted he played well in first test and flabbergasted he was dropped for second test. Hopefully he gets picked for third test.

Sutherland was meh in first test. Vunipola was pretty good when he came on. Sutherland's penalty in second test was a clanger and took any remaining wind out of our sails. He'll probably get another chance to redeem himself.

VDM was pretty meh in first test and a liability in the second test. I'm on record as not being a fan as he is a bit one trick and if he's not being used for that, there's no point in picking him.

Daly was gash. Don't think anyone wants him back over Harris.

Defended Hogg after first test because he deserves his lions cap but he was woeful yesterday. He is a shadow of the player he used to be and I think he's carrying too much weight.

Don't confuse us with Welsh rugby Twitter.

ahh, my mistake

The attitude of the sweaties has been an embarrassment tbf.

What are you on about you mad cunt?

[Uncle fester]

The majority of you have been ridiculously thin skinned. Sometimes you have to accept that your guy hasn't done well and move on.