The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Jock42]

Have the dates for next seasons ProHoweverMany and Euro comps starting been announced?

[KingBlairhorn]

Have the dates for next seasons ProHoweverMany and Euro comps starting been announced?

Not for next season as far as I know, but the dates for the end of this season have been announced. Edinburgh and Glasgow play back to back fixtures against each other in August (22nd and 28th). The purpose of these fixtures is to give Munster a chance of a home semi-final should Glasgow beat Edinburgh (allegedly)!

Semis weekend of 4th / 5th September, final the week after.

[Jock42]

Have the dates for next seasons ProHoweverMany and Euro comps starting been announced?

Not for next season as far as I know, but the dates for the end of this season have been announced. Edinburgh and Glasgow play back to back fixtures against each other in August (22nd and 28th). The purpose of these fixtures is to give Munster a chance of a home semi-final should Glasgow beat Edinburgh (allegedly)!

Semis weekend of 4th / 5th September, final the week after.

Yeah i was just wondering when after the euro/int fixtures it will start. Going to be a tight squeeze getting the same formats through for next season.

I'm glad embra have got a couple of warm ulp matches against the wee team tbf.

[robmatic]

Have the dates for next seasons ProHoweverMany and Euro comps starting been announced?

Not for next season as far as I know, but the dates for the end of this season have been announced. Edinburgh and Glasgow play back to back fixtures against each other in August (22nd and 28th). The purpose of these fixtures is to give Munster a chance of a home semi-final should Glasgow beat Edinburgh (allegedly)!

Semis weekend of 4th / 5th September, final the week after.

I think Munster are the only team in the league who have anything to gain from these fixtures. However, I'm not sure how much of an advantage being at home will be in the semis if they end up being played without crowds, and I think all the teams involved need a couple of good hit outs before the play off stages.

[KingBlairhorn]

Have the dates for next seasons ProHoweverMany and Euro comps starting been announced?

Not for next season as far as I know, but the dates for the end of this season have been announced. Edinburgh and Glasgow play back to back fixtures against each other in August (22nd and 28th). The purpose of these fixtures is to give Munster a chance of a home semi-final should Glasgow beat Edinburgh (allegedly)!

Semis weekend of 4th / 5th September, final the week after.

I think Munster are the only team in the league who have anything to gain from these fixtures. However, I'm not sure how much of an advantage being at home will be in the semis if they end up being played without crowds, and I think all the teams involved need a couple of good hit outs before the play off stages.

Correct. I was joking, however I also can't say with hand on heart that these fixtures would be played if only the Scottish or Welsh teams had something to gain...

Edit: If it was the Italians there is no chance these would be played

[KingBlairhorn]

Interesting groups in this new autumn tournament that's been announced. We are in with France, Italy and Japan. There's a real chance we could top this group, but also a real chance we could finish second last. I would hope there is little chance of finishing bottom.

Scotland vs. England for the final? It would be nice to forever be holders of both the 5 and 8 Nations!

[charltom]

Good group from the point of view of being capable of winning it. But is it also a group in which Scotland's world ranking is more potentially vulnerable, in advance of fixing the RWC pots?

[Caley_Red]

Does anyone know how they worked out the seeds for this? Would say we've got the better group.

Looking forward to it but it's a shame we won't get to play the ABs in November, always a good match at Murrayfield.

[Biffer]

Does anyone know how they worked out the seeds for this? Would say we've got the better group.

Looking forward to it but it's a shame we won't get to play the ABs in November, always a good match at Murrayfield.

I haven’t checked, but I’m guessing that it’s not seeded so much as arranged, so that the outstanding 6Nations games aren’t repeated a week or two later. So we needed to be in a different group from Wales, Ireland needed to be in a different group from Italy, etc.

Edit - having had a check I’m pretty sure that’s it. Ireland had to be in a different group from France and Italy, England a different group from Italy, Scotland a different group from Wales. Once you’ve sorted the six nations teams you put Japan in the weaker group to try to balance it a bit. So the only other arrangement would be england - ireland - scotland - fiji / France - wales - italy - japan.

[Slick]

Will be interesting to see how the SRU play this if there are a limited number of supporters allowed to attend.

Not sure I'm all that interested in parting with £80 to go to a half empty stadium with no away supporters for a made up tournament. Will be great to have some rugby on the TV though!

[KingBlairhorn]

The impression I got was that it might all be played at one stadium if fans aren’t allowed. That would certainly cut down on production costs for TV and travel costs for the teams involved.

Honestly I think winter is going to be terrible in terms of a second peak here so I very much doubt there will be fans. I certainly wouldn’t be risking booking accommodation and travel for something like this.

I hope it’s not on sky, or if it is that there is a rugby channel that I can buy a pass for specifically.

[Slick]

The impression I got was that it might all be played at one stadium if fans aren’t allowed. That would certainly cut down on production costs for TV and travel costs for the teams involved.

Honestly I think winter is going to be terrible in terms of a second peak here so I very much doubt there will be fans. I certainly wouldn’t be risking booking accommodation and travel for something like this.

I hope it’s not on sky, or if it is that there is a rugby channel that I can buy a pass for specifically.

You are probably right. Pretty instructive that they are giving refunds for Wales v Scotland before even trying to put it on again in some capacity.

[Caley_Red]

Got to fancy winning that group considering we'd play France and Japan at Murrayfield.

[Biffer]

The impression I got was that it might all be played at one stadium if fans aren’t allowed. That would certainly cut down on production costs for TV and travel costs for the teams involved.

Honestly I think winter is going to be terrible in terms of a second peak here so I very much doubt there will be fans. I certainly wouldn’t be risking booking accommodation and travel for something like this.

I hope it’s not on sky, or if it is that there is a rugby channel that I can buy a pass for specifically.

NowTV day pass is useful for this kind of thing. I’ve got three months of their sports channels at half price atm.

[Jock42]

Got to fancy winning that group considering we'd play France and Japan at Murrayfield.

Has that been decided?

[Slick]

The impression I got was that it might all be played at one stadium if fans aren’t allowed. That would certainly cut down on production costs for TV and travel costs for the teams involved.

Honestly I think winter is going to be terrible in terms of a second peak here so I very much doubt there will be fans. I certainly wouldn’t be risking booking accommodation and travel for something like this.

I hope it’s not on sky, or if it is that there is a rugby channel that I can buy a pass for specifically.

NowTV day pass is useful for this kind of thing. I’ve got three months of their sports channels at half price atm.

Oh, now that's interesting. How much is it?

[Caley_Red]

Got to fancy winning that group considering we'd play France and Japan at Murrayfield.

Has that been decided?

Not sure, I did read it somewhere today though. .

[Biffer]

The impression I got was that it might all be played at one stadium if fans aren’t allowed. That would certainly cut down on production costs for TV and travel costs for the teams involved.

Honestly I think winter is going to be terrible in terms of a second peak here so I very much doubt there will be fans. I certainly wouldn’t be risking booking accommodation and travel for something like this.

I hope it’s not on sky, or if it is that there is a rugby channel that I can buy a pass for specifically.

NowTV day pass is useful for this kind of thing. I’ve got three months of their sports channels at half price atm.

Oh, now that's interesting. How much is it?

Eight or nine quid for a day, fifteen for a week I think. Thirty five for a month normally, but I've got it at £20 for three months. I've used the day or week passes in the past to watch the summer tour Saturdays, big golf tournaments e.g. Ryder Cup, and one or two other things. Not worth me subscribing to Sky as I don't watch football anymore. I think BT Sport are now doing a month by month online pass as well if the English premiership is your thing.

[Caley_Red]

NowTV day pass is useful for this kind of thing. I’ve got three months of their sports channels at half price atm.

Oh, now that's interesting. How much is it?

Eight or nine quid for a day, fifteen for a week I think. Thirty five for a month normally, but I've got it at £20 for three months. I've used the day or week passes in the past to watch the summer tour Saturdays, big golf tournaments e.g. Ryder Cup, and one or two other things. Not worth me subscribing to Sky as I don't watch football anymore. I think BT Sport are now doing a month by month online pass as well if the English premiership is your thing.

Just out of interest, why did you stop watching football? I also stopped watching football about 10 years ago (it was on a strong downward trajectory from about 2005), just totally fell out of love with the game: too much money and the steep descent of the Scottish game relative to most of Europe.
Actually detest club football now, EPL in particular. Will still watch a world cup or euros game but that's once every two years.

[Slick]

Oh, now that's interesting. How much is it?

Eight or nine quid for a day, fifteen for a week I think. Thirty five for a month normally, but I've got it at £20 for three months. I've used the day or week passes in the past to watch the summer tour Saturdays, big golf tournaments e.g. Ryder Cup, and one or two other things. Not worth me subscribing to Sky as I don't watch football anymore. I think BT Sport are now doing a month by month online pass as well if the English premiership is your thing.

Just out of interest, why did you stop watching football? I also stopped watching football about 10 years ago (it was on a strong downward trajectory from about 2005), just totally fell out of love with the game: too much money and the steep descent of the Scottish game relative to most of Europe.
Actually detest club football now, EPL in particular. Will still watch a world cup or euros game but that's once every two years.

I also completely fell out of love with it 10-15 years ago. For me the main driver was the diving and hysteria, it has become a game of who can con the ref better. I'll watch the world cup but I can't (and I've tried a few times) watch an EPL game for instance, just bores me to death.

In saying that I will watch a game with Ronaldo playing, IMO he is just so far above anyone else that it drags me in, but I'll watch any sportsperson in any sport at the top of his/her game.

[Biffer]

Eight or nine quid for a day, fifteen for a week I think. Thirty five for a month normally, but I've got it at £20 for three months. I've used the day or week passes in the past to watch the summer tour Saturdays, big golf tournaments e.g. Ryder Cup, and one or two other things. Not worth me subscribing to Sky as I don't watch football anymore. I think BT Sport are now doing a month by month online pass as well if the English premiership is your thing.

Just out of interest, why did you stop watching football? I also stopped watching football about 10 years ago (it was on a strong downward trajectory from about 2005), just totally fell out of love with the game: too much money and the steep descent of the Scottish game relative to most of Europe.
Actually detest club football now, EPL in particular. Will still watch a world cup or euros game but that's once every two years.

I also completely fell out of love with it 10-15 years ago. For me the main driver was the diving and hysteria, it has become a game of who can con the ref better. I'll watch the world cup but I can't (and I've tried a few times) watch an EPL game for instance, just bores me to death.

In saying that I will watch a game with Ronaldo playing, IMO he is just so far above anyone else that it drags me in, but I'll watch any sportsperson in any sport at the top of his/her game.

Same kind of time as you guys, and pretty much the same as the reasons both of you describe - too much diving, conning the ref, and not even having any shame about it when caught. Scottish game is terrible, but the rich leagues go even further down the road of precious superstars. The relentless media wankfest about it is also really off putting, as is the expense - it used to be the working man's game, now it's become very middle class. There's no reason to charge ridiculous ticket prices when most of your income comes from other sources.

[KingBlairhorn]

NowTV day pass is useful for this kind of thing. I’ve got three months of their sports channels at half price atm.

Oh, now that's interesting. How much is it?

Eight or nine quid for a day, fifteen for a week I think. Thirty five for a month normally, but I've got it at £20 for three months. I've used the day or week passes in the past to watch the summer tour Saturdays, big golf tournaments e.g. Ryder Cup, and one or two other things. Not worth me subscribing to Sky as I don't watch football anymore. I think BT Sport are now doing a month by month online pass as well if the English premiership is your thing.

I've used day passes lots before but that right there is why I hope it's not on Sky. £8 or £9 for a single match is outrageous, it's outrageous because the vast majority of that fee goes to EPL football clubs. You say it's £35 normally, so it's minimum £70 to watch this tournament if it is on sky. A reasonable fee structure would allow me to pay for a specific match and then more if I want general access. You can bet your right arm they'll have matches on Friday, Saturday and Sunday too, so you can't watch the whole lot on one pass.

I'm a chump though so I'll pay it.

[Biffer]

Oh, now that's interesting. How much is it?

Eight or nine quid for a day, fifteen for a week I think. Thirty five for a month normally, but I've got it at £20 for three months. I've used the day or week passes in the past to watch the summer tour Saturdays, big golf tournaments e.g. Ryder Cup, and one or two other things. Not worth me subscribing to Sky as I don't watch football anymore. I think BT Sport are now doing a month by month online pass as well if the English premiership is your thing.

I've used day passes lots before but that right there is why I hope it's not on Sky. £8 or £9 for a single match is outrageous, it's outrageous because the vast majority of that fee goes to EPL football clubs. You say it's £35 normally, so it's minimum £70 to watch this tournament if it is on sky. A reasonable fee structure would allow me to pay for a specific match and then more if I want general access. You can bet your right arm they'll have matches on Friday, Saturday and Sunday too, so you can't watch the whole lot on one pass.

I'm a chump though so I'll pay it.

Yeah, I don't do it often, and generally not for a single match. There will be four matches each weekend for this tournament, so if you've got one on Friday night, two on Saturday afternoon and one on Sunday afternoon, you should be able to get three of them for one day pass hopefully. And let's face it, this will be on Sky because it's about raising some revenue, and you don't get that from the beeb.

I would quite happily pay for a rugby channel that had Pro14, Premiership, Top14, Heineken, Super Rugby etc all in one place. But it'll never happen.

[clydecloggie]

I'm just hoping VPN/RugbyPass go back to how it was in 2019. Much like how the rest of the world needs to go back to 2019. Well, Scottish rugby excepted perhaps.

[Biffer]

I'm just hoping VPN/RugbyPass go back to how it was in 2019. Much like how the rest of the world needs to go back to 2019. Well, Scottish rugby excepted perhaps.

Yeah, can we reset to 2018 please?

[Caley_Red]

I'm just hoping VPN/RugbyPass go back to how it was in 2019. Much like how the rest of the world needs to go back to 2019. Well, Scottish rugby excepted perhaps.

Yeah, can we reset to 2018 please?

2017 was a better year, in my view: beat Ireland, smashed Wales, beat Aus in Sydney and obliterated them at Murrayfield and almost pipped the ABs.

Although in 2017 there was that total debacle at Twickenham, I hold the 2018 game against Wales as a worse result.

[clydecloggie]

I'm just hoping VPN/RugbyPass go back to how it was in 2019. Much like how the rest of the world needs to go back to 2019. Well, Scottish rugby excepted perhaps.

Yeah, can we reset to 2018 please?

2017 was a better year, in my view: beat Ireland, smashed Wales, beat Aus in Sydney and obliterated them at Murrayfield and almost pipped the ABs.

Although in 2017 there was that total debacle at Twickenham, I hold the 2018 game against Wales as a worse result.

I'm trying hard to think of a year without one absolute howler of a match from Scotland but if it exists it's longer back than I have clear memories of.

Can we find a one-year window which includes all the 2017 highlights and the 2018 Calcutta Cup, but not 2017 Twickenham game nor 2018 Cardiff? I want to go to that year. New year's day is arbitrary nonsense anyway.

[Biffer]

I'm just hoping VPN/RugbyPass go back to how it was in 2019. Much like how the rest of the world needs to go back to 2019. Well, Scottish rugby excepted perhaps.

Yeah, can we reset to 2018 please?

2017 was a better year, in my view: beat Ireland, smashed Wales, beat Aus in Sydney and obliterated them at Murrayfield and almost pipped the ABs.

Although in 2017 there was that total debacle at Twickenham, I hold the 2018 game against Wales as a worse result.

I see your argument and I raise you The Pass.

[clydecloggie]

Yeah, can we reset to 2018 please?

2017 was a better year, in my view: beat Ireland, smashed Wales, beat Aus in Sydney and obliterated them at Murrayfield and almost pipped the ABs.

Although in 2017 there was that total debacle at Twickenham, I hold the 2018 game against Wales as a worse result.

I see your argument and I raise you The Pass.

Imagine your Groundhog Day being the day of The Pass. Bill Murray could go and do one.

Although I still maintain that Finn Russell's pass to DTH van der Merwe in the dying minutes of the Pro12 semi-finals against Ulster to set up the winning try was even better. But my opinion may be coloured by the fact he threw that one about 8 metres away from me sitting in the stands at Scotstoun whereas I only ever saw The Pass on TV.

[Biffer]

2017 was a better year, in my view: beat Ireland, smashed Wales, beat Aus in Sydney and obliterated them at Murrayfield and almost pipped the ABs.

Although in 2017 there was that total debacle at Twickenham, I hold the 2018 game against Wales as a worse result.

I see your argument and I raise you The Pass.

Imagine your Groundhog Day being the day of The Pass. Bill Murray could go and do one.

Although I still maintain that Finn Russell's pass to DTH van der Merwe in the dying minutes of the Pro12 semi-finals against Ulster to set up the winning try was even better. But my opinion may be coloured by the fact he threw that one about 8 metres away from me sitting in the stands at Scotstoun whereas I only ever saw The Pass on TV.

Man, that being your Groundhog Day would be awesome. I was at that game and I have a distinct memory of there being a vaguely terrified mass intake of breath from 67,000 people at the same time then the place went mental as Jones ran onto it at full speed.

[clydecloggie]

I see your argument and I raise you The Pass.

Imagine your Groundhog Day being the day of The Pass. Bill Murray could go and do one.

Although I still maintain that Finn Russell's pass to DTH van der Merwe in the dying minutes of the Pro12 semi-finals against Ulster to set up the winning try was even better. But my opinion may be coloured by the fact he threw that one about 8 metres away from me sitting in the stands at Scotstoun whereas I only ever saw The Pass on TV.

Man, that being your Groundhog Day would be awesome. I was at that game and I have a distinct memory of there being a vaguely terrified mass intake of breath from 67,000 people at the same time then the place went mental as Jones ran onto it at full speed.

Aye. To equate it with the Ulster pass to DTH, I've never experienced a hurricane of sound like the Scotstoun 10k made when he threw that pass - a deafening roar.

Biggest Murrayfield sound boom I've ever witnessed and contributed to was probably in the last AB game when Hogg ran into space on the left wing in the last seconds of the match. The whole place went bananas. Then he got tackled, offloaded forward and the ref blew for the game with a few seconds left on the clock. In hindsight quite funny to witness a whole stadium going from 130dB collective roar to quiet confusion to 'popped balloon' in about 5 seconds flat. At the time it was just one big anticlimax.

[Begbie]

Imagine your Groundhog Day being the day of The Pass. Bill Murray could go and do one.

Although I still maintain that Finn Russell's pass to DTH van der Merwe in the dying minutes of the Pro12 semi-finals against Ulster to set up the winning try was even better. But my opinion may be coloured by the fact he threw that one about 8 metres away from me sitting in the stands at Scotstoun whereas I only ever saw The Pass on TV.

Man, that being your Groundhog Day would be awesome. I was at that game and I have a distinct memory of there being a vaguely terrified mass intake of breath from 67,000 people at the same time then the place went mental as Jones ran onto it at full speed.

Aye. To equate it with the Ulster pass to DTH, I've never experienced a hurricane of sound like the Scotstoun 10k made when he threw that pass - a deafening roar.

Biggest Murrayfield sound boom I've ever witnessed and contributed to was probably in the last AB game when Hogg ran into space on the left wing in the last seconds of the match. The whole place went bananas. Then he got tackled, offloaded forward and the ref blew for the game with a few seconds left on the clock. In hindsight quite funny to witness a whole stadium going from 130dB collective roar to quiet confusion to 'popped balloon' in about 5 seconds flat. At the time it was just one big anticlimax.

The worst part of that game was the ref calling a knock on in the lead up to Bhatti going over for a try, when every man and his dog saw Read slap it out of Gray's hand. Try should have stood and Read should have been binned

[clydecloggie]

The worst part of that game was the ref calling a knock on in the lead up to Bhatti going over for a try, when every man and his dog saw Read slap it out of Gray's hand. Try should have stood and Read should have been binned

Aye that was grim. Typical Scottish bad luck. Would have been a different game with a different decision. Funny how not much was made of it afterwards, because of how the final play panned out and that stealing all the headlines.

[Northern Lights]

For anyone else with a ticket for Wales. Refund, credit or donation options.

https://www.wru.wales/2020/07/news-on-s ... us-update/

SRU returning the money to the clubs on 31st August for those that get their tickets like me through their club.

[Jock42]

A brutal and honest interview with Matt Smith. In all areas in this country improvements need made for mental health but I'd never considered the need for a TRiM style counselling for injuries, it's pretty obvious when you think about it. The 2 careers I've had/have are both renowned for exacting their toll on people so I can relate to some of what he has said.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/id-alway ... ssion=true

[KingBlairhorn]

The worst part of that game was the ref calling a knock on in the lead up to Bhatti going over for a try, when every man and his dog saw Read slap it out of Gray's hand. Try should have stood and Read should have been binned

Aye that was grim. Typical Scottish bad luck. Would have been a different game with a different decision. Funny how not much was made of it afterwards, because of how the final play panned out and that stealing all the headlines.

That was so infuriating, it wasn't even a knock on, the ball went backwards from Gray's hand and Bhatti picked it up cleanly and scored. Worse than that, it was the second cynical foul in 2 minutes, the first of which had already led to a yellow card - it 100% should have been a penalty try and NZ should have finished the game with 13. If that had been correctly called I am certain we would have won.

Absolute raging at the time - thanks for reminding me!

[Begbie]

The worst part of that game was the ref calling a knock on in the lead up to Bhatti going over for a try, when every man and his dog saw Read slap it out of Gray's hand. Try should have stood and Read should have been binned

Aye that was grim. Typical Scottish bad luck. Would have been a different game with a different decision. Funny how not much was made of it afterwards, because of how the final play panned out and that stealing all the headlines.

That was so infuriating, it wasn't even a knock on, the ball went backwards from Gray's hand and Bhatti picked it up cleanly and scored. Worse than that, it was the second cynical foul in 2 minutes, the first of which had already led to a yellow card - it 100% should have been a penalty try and NZ should have finished the game with 13. If that had been correctly called I am certain we would have won.

Absolute raging at the time - thanks for reminding me!

Yeah, was a real kick in the baws. Our captains have been really ineffective at managing refs. Like him or loathe him, AWJ wouldn't have let that go easily, likewise Sexton or PoM. And it wouldn't have been dismissed had it happened up the other end of the pitch.

[KingBlairhorn]

Yeah, was a real kick in the baws. Our captains have been really ineffective at managing refs. Like him or loathe him, AWJ wouldn't have let that go easily, likewise Sexton or PoM. And it wouldn't have been dismissed had it happened up the other end of the pitch.

I agree, I remember talking about that at the time on the old bored. I don't know if our communication was ineffective or if we simply didn't even try but it was a poor show from the captains either way. That was a match winning moment and that is the time to have a full on Sexton - the ref might have a go at you but you sure as hell make him think it's worth checking.

The effectiveness or otherwise of our captains, particularly Barclay, was something I was thinking about the other day actually. There have been a few stories in the media originating from him about how he was pushed out at Edinburgh and that they didn't let him into the leadership group. To me, it seemed there was very little self-reflection there (a key facet of a good leader) about the skills he actually has to offer beyond his view that he has been around a long time and had leadership roles therefore he must be good at it.

[Slick]

Yeah, was a real kick in the baws. Our captains have been really ineffective at managing refs. Like him or loathe him, AWJ wouldn't have let that go easily, likewise Sexton or PoM. And it wouldn't have been dismissed had it happened up the other end of the pitch.

I agree, I remember talking about that at the time on the old bored. I don't know if our communication was ineffective or if we simply didn't even try but it was a poor show from the captains either way. That was a match winning moment and that is the time to have a full on Sexton - the ref might have a go at you but you sure as hell make him think it's worth checking.

The effectiveness or otherwise of our captains, particularly Barclay, was something I was thinking about the other day actually. There have been a few stories in the media originating from him about how he was pushed out at Edinburgh and that they didn't let him into the leadership group. To me, it seemed there was very little self-reflection there (a key facet of a good leader) about the skills he actually has to offer beyond his view that he has been around a long time and had leadership roles therefore he must be good at it.

I think we have had the discussions before but we have been extremelly naive over the last decade when dealing with refs. I don't like it but every other team does it and we seem to have been on the bad end of some really important decisions that could have been managed much better. The example above is one but I also think Laidlaw could have dealt better with Joubert (spit) in that WC.

[KingBlairhorn]

Yeah, was a real kick in the baws. Our captains have been really ineffective at managing refs. Like him or loathe him, AWJ wouldn't have let that go easily, likewise Sexton or PoM. And it wouldn't have been dismissed had it happened up the other end of the pitch.

I agree, I remember talking about that at the time on the old bored. I don't know if our communication was ineffective or if we simply didn't even try but it was a poor show from the captains either way. That was a match winning moment and that is the time to have a full on Sexton - the ref might have a go at you but you sure as hell make him think it's worth checking.

The effectiveness or otherwise of our captains, particularly Barclay, was something I was thinking about the other day actually. There have been a few stories in the media originating from him about how he was pushed out at Edinburgh and that they didn't let him into the leadership group. To me, it seemed there was very little self-reflection there (a key facet of a good leader) about the skills he actually has to offer beyond his view that he has been around a long time and had leadership roles therefore he must be good at it.

I think we have had the discussions before but we have been extremelly naive over the last decade when dealing with refs. I don't like it but every other team does it and we seem to have been on the bad end of some really important decisions that could have been managed much better. The example above is one but I also think Laidlaw could have dealt better with Joubert (spit) in that WC.

My own view is that they need to have a clear and consistent approach. POC talks about having 2 or 3 key messages for the ref for every game that he came back to over and over again. Given the way Scotland play, for us this should probably include the offside line. The feel I got was that our management of the ref was not structured at all. Obviously this incident would not fall into that way of managing, but saving the seriously big response for match defining moments would also seem a sensible strategy.