Afghanistan: that turned out well

Where goats go to escape
Post Reply
User avatar
FalseBayFC
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:12 am
FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:11 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:08 am Plugged this on the Book thread a while back but worth mentioning again how good I thought Afgantsy was as a history of the Russian war. Always struck me that a lot of the Muhajideen old hands who also fought for the Taliban had far more respect for the Soviets than they did for the Americans. Of course there's an element of 'in my day' as well as men of extreme violence respecting the same, but an interesting observation nonetheless.
You don't think the coalition forces actions in Afghanistan constituted extreme violence?
Oh good, you're here.
Why do Brits get so excited by war? They love coming to South Africa to visit the battlefields in Isandlwana, Rorke's Drift and Spioenkop. Its fukken macabre. So proud of shooting thousands of men armed with spears and the odd musket. One day in the future there'll be a busloads of redfaced Ruperts and Nigels visiting drone strike sites in Afghanistan.
Jock42
Posts: 2444
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:01 pm

Or alternatively we could listen to Toby here and bungee him to the side of an F35

User avatar
Paddington Bear
Posts: 5962
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:29 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Think Elwood needs to let go here. A few airstrikes from carriers a thousand miles away doesn't change the fact that the Afghan government has surrendered. Also doesn't change that half the jets are American because we don't fund our military properly.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
User avatar
Margin__Walker
Posts: 2744
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:47 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:40 am All fun and games until the Paras have to go into the shit to get him out.
The frustrating thing is that he'll probably be absolutely fine and will get home safe insufferably smug with a cracking yarn. The Taliban are on cloud 9 here with this capitulation going better than they probably hoped. I doubt they are going to cause much friction by targeting foreign nationals just now. The Americans are fucking off, but they still have a foothold right now and could still launch punitive strikes if US or allied nationals start dying. Leave it a week or two and they can do what they want.

On a related not I watched a video the other day telling the story of an ambush in which a British soldier won an MC in Basra in 2004. The whole thing was basically caused by them having to rescue a Kiwi backpacker being held by a dodgy police unit.

User avatar
Paddington Bear
Posts: 5962
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:29 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

I assume the Chinese will pay fairly well for access to all the abandoned US hardware?
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
User avatar
tabascoboy
Posts: 6474
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:22 am
Location: 曇りの街

Trump - as usual - not slow to try and make capital from it
“It is time for Joe Biden to resign in disgrace for what he has allowed to happen to Afghanistan,” Mr Trump said in the statement, in which he also sought to resurrect claims over the legitimacy of the 2020 election.
but 4 months ago...

Image
tc27
Posts: 2532
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:18 pm

Jock42 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:22 am Or alternatively we could listen to Toby here and bungee him to the side of an F35

Leaving aside wether Pakistanis would allow overflights in transport terms the carrier has a small compliment of Merlin helicopters that would not have the range to fly into landlocked Afghanistan. Besides which the UK has enough heavy airlift (C17s, A400s and Voyagers) to get people out as it is.
GogLais
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:06 pm
Location: Wirral/Cilgwri

Jock42 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:22 am Or alternatively we could listen to Toby here and bungee him to the side of an F35

It’s the constant problem of UK defence procurement. We want our equipment to be as good as anyone else’s but that means we lack quantity. Better minds than mine have decided that for example 6 Type 45s are better than say 10 slightly less capable ships but however good they are they can only be in one place at a time. Don’t tell anyone but I’ve read that only one 45 is in service at the moment.
tc27
Posts: 2532
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:18 pm

The six Type 45s was pure Treasury cost cutting - the Navy wanted 12. What's particularly grating is that these savings were in part to fund the expensive Afghan deployment the fruits of which are crumbling to dust before us.

With Naval ships the general rule of thumb is the 2/3rds will be routinely unavailable - either in deep refit, crew leave or working up...so six ships equals 2 normally available. Get a mechanical problem like HMS Diamond just has and that's one destroyer....again this is why the Navy wanted 12.
“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the sea-going status is of each of the six Type 45 Destroyers; and which of those ships are (a) operationally available, (b) undergoing maintenance and/or a refit and (c) temporarily unavailable due to propulsion problems.”

Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“HMS DEFENDER is currently deployed as part of the Carrier Strike Group (CSG21) while

HMS DIAMOND has experienced some technical issues and has detached from CSG21 for maintenance, inspection and defect rectification.

HMS DARING and HMS DUNCAN are currently undergoing planned deep maintenance.


HMS DAUNTLESS, the first of the Type 45 Destroyers to undergo a Power Improvement Project upgrade, is expected to return to sea for trials this year.

HMS DRAGON is undergoing a period of planned maintenance in advance of further operational commitments.”
User avatar
Torquemada 1420
Posts: 11156
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
Location: Hut 8

"𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑻𝒂𝒍𝒊𝒃𝒂𝒏 𝒂𝒓𝒆 𝒏𝒐𝒕 𝒈𝒖𝒂𝒓𝒂𝒏𝒕𝒆𝒆𝒅 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒌𝒊𝒏𝒅 𝒐𝒇 𝒗𝒊𝒄𝒕𝒐𝒓𝒚 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒔𝒐𝒎𝒆𝒕𝒊𝒎𝒆𝒔 𝒓𝒆𝒂𝒅 𝒂𝒃𝒐𝒖𝒕."

[/Boris Johnson. 1 month ago.]

Evidently a giant of thinking in international politics.
GogLais
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:06 pm
Location: Wirral/Cilgwri

tc27 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:03 pm The six Type 45s was pure Treasury cost cutting - the Navy wanted 12. What's particularly grating is that these savings were in part to fund the expensive Afghan deployment the fruits of which are crumbling to dust before us.

With Naval ships the general rule of thumb is the 2/3rds will be routinely unavailable - either in deep refit, crew leave or working up...so six ships equals 2 normally available. Get a mechanical problem like HMS Diamond just has and that's one destroyer....again this is why the Navy wanted 12.
“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the sea-going status is of each of the six Type 45 Destroyers; and which of those ships are (a) operationally available, (b) undergoing maintenance and/or a refit and (c) temporarily unavailable due to propulsion problems.”

Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“HMS DEFENDER is currently deployed as part of the Carrier Strike Group (CSG21) while

HMS DIAMOND has experienced some technical issues and has detached from CSG21 for maintenance, inspection and defect rectification.

HMS DARING and HMS DUNCAN are currently undergoing planned deep maintenance.


HMS DAUNTLESS, the first of the Type 45 Destroyers to undergo a Power Improvement Project upgrade, is expected to return to sea for trials this year.

HMS DRAGON is undergoing a period of planned maintenance in advance of further operational commitments.”
Ta, I’d never have thought unavailability would be as high as 2/3. As it happens I assume Dauntless is just up the road from me at Cammell Laird. Tbh and I realise it was a Treasury decision but what the hell is the point of spending billions to have two at sea at any time?
User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 10887
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:05 pm
Location: England

1 x Type 45 gets you 3 x River class OFFSHORE PATROL VESSELS. And the smaller boats are much easier to maintain and deploy.
tc27
Posts: 2532
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:18 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:16 pm 1 x Type 45 gets you 3 x River class OFFSHORE PATROL VESSELS. And the smaller boats are much easier to maintain and deploy.
Yeah but a OPV (even 3 of them) would be useless at air defence.
User avatar
Saint
Posts: 2274
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:38 am

None of which would be particularly useful in this situation. The only thing that might be of use really is the QE - load her up with Merlins and you can manage a decent emergency evac
Jock42
Posts: 2444
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:01 pm

Desperate..... the 2nd video doesn't show a lot but some might not want to view it.


User avatar
Enzedder
Posts: 3577
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:55 pm
Location: Hamilton NZ

DP posted a nice pic of him and 3 of the Taliban. It all seemed rather friendly posing for the camera and comparing footwear.
I drink and I forget things.
Blackmac
Posts: 3231
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:04 pm

Jock42 wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:11 pm
Blackmac wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:19 pm
Jock42 wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:41 am Rumours that 2 PARA are in contact.
My mate's son is out there. First deployment.
Best of British to him. HERRICK 10 just seems like a distant memory now, can't express how deflated I am this weekend.
Must be tough mate. Whilst I hate to see the situation unfold, part of me is glad that our troops will no longer suffer when the Afghans themselves seem so unwilling to fight for their own freedoms.
Blackmac
Posts: 3231
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:04 pm

Jock42 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:06 pm Desperate..... the 2nd video doesn't show a lot but some might not want to view it.


The tone is the first video is ruined by the grinning fuckwit smiling and waving at the camera.
User avatar
FalseBayFC
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:19 pm

giphy.gif
giphy.gif (810.26 KiB) Viewed 1073 times
Slick
Posts: 11917
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:58 pm

FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:03 pmgiphy.gif
Your fellow Saffers keep defending you but I’m not sure why
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
User avatar
stunt_cunt
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:21 pm
Location: Wild West

You'd have to think it's past time for launching some rescue mission to get these interpreters and former staff of different armies out the place.

The chaos of the initial hours of the Taliban waltzing in unimpeded will soon be overcast by an organised Taliban simply ring fencing the airports with roadblocks to see who's trying to get out. I'd assume that's probably happening right now.
User avatar
FalseBayFC
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Slick wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:06 pm
FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:03 pmgiphy.gif
Your fellow Saffers keep defending you but I’m not sure why
It's quite literally what the coalition are doing.
User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 10887
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:05 pm
Location: England

Slick wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:06 pm
FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:03 pmgiphy.gif
Your fellow Saffers keep defending you but I’m not sure why
Not me. He’s a fruitloop and a dick.
Biffer
Posts: 9142
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:43 pm

GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:38 pm
Jock42 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:22 am Or alternatively we could listen to Toby here and bungee him to the side of an F35

It’s the constant problem of UK defence procurement. We want our equipment to be as good as anyone else’s but that means we lack quantity. Better minds than mine have decided that for example 6 Type 45s are better than say 10 slightly less capable ships but however good they are they can only be in one place at a time. Don’t tell anyone but I’ve read that only one 45 is in service at the moment.
Doesn’t this demonstrate the ridiculous nature of the decision to build new aircraft carriers when a more modern fighting force would have flexible vessels capable of accommodating VTOL fighters, helicopter transports, amphibious assault vessels etc? I have no expertise in this but I’ve previously been told by people who know a bit more than me that carriers are now just about projection of power rather than successful military actions. Which in our case is a projection of power we no longer have.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Biffer
Posts: 9142
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:43 pm

Afghan Central Bank governor going to town of the president and government here

And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
User avatar
FalseBayFC
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:56 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:06 pm
FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:03 pmgiphy.gif
Your fellow Saffers keep defending you but I’m not sure why
Not me. He’s a fruitloop and a dick.
Says the guy whose solution for Afghanistan is to nuke them.
User avatar
Sandstorm
Posts: 10887
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:05 pm
Location: England

FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:59 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:56 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:06 pm

Your fellow Saffers keep defending you but I’m not sure why
Not me. He’s a fruitloop and a dick.
Says the guy whose solution for Afghanistan is to nuke them.
That wasn’t me, you giant bowl of breakfast cereal.
User avatar
Saint
Posts: 2274
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:38 am

Biffer wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:57 pm
GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:38 pm
Jock42 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:22 am Or alternatively we could listen to Toby here and bungee him to the side of an F35

It’s the constant problem of UK defence procurement. We want our equipment to be as good as anyone else’s but that means we lack quantity. Better minds than mine have decided that for example 6 Type 45s are better than say 10 slightly less capable ships but however good they are they can only be in one place at a time. Don’t tell anyone but I’ve read that only one 45 is in service at the moment.
Doesn’t this demonstrate the ridiculous nature of the decision to build new aircraft carriers when a more modern fighting force would have flexible vessels capable of accommodating VTOL fighters, helicopter transports, amphibious assault vessels etc? I have no expertise in this but I’ve previously been told by people who know a bit more than me that carriers are now just about projection of power rather than successful military actions. Which in our case is a projection of power we no longer have.
You;re pretty close to describing the capabilities of the QE class (barring the amhpib assault craft, but that type of operation requires a very specialist vessel that a carrier air wing would help protect). The QE class are more akin to the US Wasp class of carriers (technically Helicopter Landing Docks) than the (much larger) Nimitz/Ford nuclear class
User avatar
FalseBayFC
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:08 pm
FalseBayFC wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:59 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:56 pm

Not me. He’s a fruitloop and a dick.
Says the guy whose solution for Afghanistan is to nuke them.
That wasn’t me, you giant bowl of breakfast cereal.
Sorry I didn't understand your "Nuke them from orbit" meme. You seem to have a massive hard-on for war machinery so I thought you may have been serious rather than ironic.
convoluted
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:00 pm

tabascoboy wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:54 am Trump - as usual - not slow to try and make capital from it
“It is time for Joe Biden to resign in disgrace for what he has allowed to happen to Afghanistan,” Mr Trump said in the statement, in which he also sought to resurrect claims over the legitimacy of the 2020 election.
but 4 months ago...

Image
^^^ FFS !!!

Trump's withdrawal was to be undertaken with a firm agreement in advance and with the Taliban left in no doubt as to what the military consequences would be should they renege.
Their clumped advances of recent weeks would have provided easy targets as against the difficulty of ferreting out a solitary with a 303 hidden in a crevice on a mountaintop.

An analogy is with Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam.
The North Vietnamese knew for sure that if they violated the Paris Peace Accord and advanced on Saigon, then they would be obliterated by air strikes.
But Watergate removed both Nixon and his pledge to South Vietnam, and in consequence it wasn't VC armed with crossbows who took Saigon but columns of armored NV tanks and vehicles that would otherwise have been sitting ducks.

Biden is due to speak. Will he too try and deflect the human catastrophe onto Trump?
tc27
Posts: 2532
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:18 pm

esn’t this demonstrate the ridiculous nature of the decision to build new aircraft carriers when a more modern fighting force would have flexible vessels capable of accommodating VTOL fighters, helicopter transports, amphibious assault vessels etc? I have no expertise in this but I’ve previously been told by people who know a bit more than me that carriers are now just about projection of power rather than successful military actions. Which in our case is a projection of power we no longer have.
1. It literally has those abilities.
2. Kabul is outside the range of most VTOL aircraft and helicopters from the Indian Ocean
3. ..and even if it wasn't Pakistan is kinda in the way of and any maritime airlift
4. The UK has more than enough strategic airlift to get people out.
5. Whilst the carrier is a mobile asset it travels at about 30mph and is in the Pacific.
Slick
Posts: 11917
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:58 pm

convoluted wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:49 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:54 am Trump - as usual - not slow to try and make capital from it
“It is time for Joe Biden to resign in disgrace for what he has allowed to happen to Afghanistan,” Mr Trump said in the statement, in which he also sought to resurrect claims over the legitimacy of the 2020 election.
but 4 months ago...

Image
^^^ FFS !!!

Trump's withdrawal was to be undertaken with a firm agreement in advance and with the Taliban left in no doubt as to what the military consequences would be should they renege.
Their clumped advances of recent weeks would have provided easy targets as against the difficulty of ferreting out a solitary with a 303 hidden in a crevice on a mountaintop.

An analogy is with Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam.
The North Vietnamese knew for sure that if they violated the Paris Peace Accord and advanced on Saigon, then they would be obliterated by air strikes.
But Watergate removed both Nixon and his pledge to South Vietnam, and in consequence it wasn't VC armed with crossbows who took Saigon but columns of armored NV tanks and vehicles that would otherwise have been sitting ducks.

Biden is due to speak. Will he too try and deflect the human catastrophe onto Trump?
:lol: :lol: :crazy:
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
User avatar
Ymx
Posts: 8557
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:03 pm

So Bidens angle - he’s saying it was Ghanis fault. Ghani said the Afghans would fight. They did not. Why should US fight for something the Afghans aren’t willing to fight for, a civil war.
Last edited by Ymx on Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Hugo
Posts: 1185
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:27 pm

Biden is pulling no punches in criticising the Afghans, to paraphrase "if they were not willing to fight for their country then Americans should not be expected to do so on their behalf".

He's talked of the US pivoting away from using military power to using diplomacy and economics with human rights at the centre of foreign policy.
User avatar
Calculon
Posts: 1784
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:25 pm

Remarkable that the real culprit, George w Bush, is getting a free pass on all this
convoluted
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:00 pm

Good grief.
CNN actually made an immediate and perfect summation: "Biden said 'the buck stops with me' but his entire talk was fingerpointing at others" (maybe not word for word).
User avatar
TB63
Posts: 4014
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:11 pm
Location: Tinopolis

convoluted wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:49 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:54 am Trump - as usual - not slow to try and make capital from it
“It is time for Joe Biden to resign in disgrace for what he has allowed to happen to Afghanistan,” Mr Trump said in the statement, in which he also sought to resurrect claims over the legitimacy of the 2020 election.
but 4 months ago...

Image
^^^ FFS !!!

Trump's withdrawal was to be undertaken with a firm agreement in advance and with the Taliban left in no doubt as to what the military consequences would be should they renege.
Their clumped advances of recent weeks would have provided easy targets as against the difficulty of ferreting out a solitary with a 303 hidden in a crevice on a mountaintop.

An analogy is with Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam.
The North Vietnamese knew for sure that if they violated the Paris Peace Accord and advanced on Saigon, then they would be obliterated by air strikes.
But Watergate removed both Nixon and his pledge to South Vietnam, and in consequence it wasn't VC armed with crossbows who took Saigon but columns of armored NV tanks and vehicles that would otherwise have been sitting ducks.

Biden is due to speak. Will he too try and deflect the human catastrophe onto Trump?
The Drump lover has decided to post on another thread apart from US Politics!
Ah, but wait, someone has said bigly bad things about the orange shitgibbon..
Now they're deleting pages praising his Taliban deals.. :clap:

https://www.rawstory.com/amp/trump-afgh ... ssion=true
convoluted
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:00 pm

Slick wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:56 pm
convoluted wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:49 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:54 am Trump - as usual - not slow to try and make capital from it



but 4 months ago...

Image
^^^ FFS !!!

Trump's withdrawal was to be undertaken with a firm agreement in advance and with the Taliban left in no doubt as to what the military consequences would be should they renege.
Their clumped advances of recent weeks would have provided easy targets as against the difficulty of ferreting out a solitary with a 303 hidden in a crevice on a mountaintop.

An analogy is with Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam.
The North Vietnamese knew for sure that if they violated the Paris Peace Accord and advanced on Saigon, then they would be obliterated by air strikes.
But Watergate removed both Nixon and his pledge to South Vietnam, and in consequence it wasn't VC armed with crossbows who took Saigon but columns of armored NV tanks and vehicles that would otherwise have been sitting ducks.

Biden is due to speak. Will he too try and deflect the human catastrophe onto Trump?
:lol: :lol: :crazy:
Yep, this is the norm for your crowd: mock because you are unable to provide a rational counter-argument.
You seem blissfully unaware that it comes across as nothing more than a white flag surrender.
User avatar
TB63
Posts: 4014
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:11 pm
Location: Tinopolis

Trump freed Taliban leader Baradar in 2018
— Trump cut deal with Taliban in Nov 2020 after election
— Trump team refused to give security briefings to Biden team during transition
User avatar
Hugo
Posts: 1185
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:27 pm

convoluted wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:24 pm Good grief.
CNN actually made an immediate and perfect summation: "Biden said 'the buck stops with me' but his entire talk was fingerpointing at others" (maybe not word for word).
I thought he was entirely fair, he owned the decision to withdraw but pointed out the context surrounding it - the Afghans are hapless and there is nothing you can do for people if they aren't willing to do it for themselves. He said a third decade in Afghanistan was unpalatable and he did not want to pass this problem onto another President.
Post Reply