So, coronavirus...

[fishfoodie]

The JCVI are supposedly deciding today on whether to approve a booster vaccination in the UK and according to the Grauniad "with ministers hopeful that approval for vaccinations for 12- to 15-year-olds could follow imminently."

Like every other decision these arseholes have faced; they're a month late !

[Uncle fester]

Don't know what the hell is happening in NI but they are drinking us dry of medical oxygen.

[Biffer]

Is there any reason why they don’t give figures of those that have caught it/in hospital/died and been double jagged?

It’s very difficult to tell where someone caught it due to the incubation time. If someone is admitted to hospital and develops the disease a week later did they catch it in hospital or before that? Impossible to tell.

Sorry, I worded that very badly. I meant figures to show which individuals that have tested positive or been admitted to hospital or have died have had both vaccinations - ie how much is the vaccine helping. My assumption is that a lot of these figures are from the unvaccinated but there must also be a fair few where the vaccine hasn't worked as well as hoped. It is obviously working very well for the vast majority.

PHE have started publishing data of this nature today

[Slick]

Thanks, Biffer

[Biffer]

Thanks, Biffer

One caveat here though - they’ve published data which makes it look like the case rate in age groups over 50 is higher for vaccinated people, lower for unvaxxed. However, there’s an ongoing issue with numbers due to the fact that in the UK we don’t really know how many people live here and in what age group. If you use a different estimate, which is another official estimate, the rates change as per the thread below.

[shaggy]

The JCVI are supposedly deciding today on whether to approve a booster vaccination in the UK and according to the Grauniad "with ministers hopeful that approval for vaccinations for 12- to 15-year-olds could follow imminently."

Like every other decision these arseholes have faced; they're a month late !

I do find it rather bizarre that people can be so angry so much of the time. It must be really exhausting.

[Marylandolorian]

Don't know what the hell is happening in NI but they are drinking us dry of medical oxygen.

Asking the same for Scotland, they are over 100 cases / 100k . ????

[Tichtheid]

Don't know what the hell is happening in NI but they are drinking us dry of medical oxygen.

Asking the same for Scotland, they are over 100 cases / 100k . ????

There's a statistical anomaly at play, according the UK Gov site

Case rates are shown per 100,000 people for the 7-day period ending on the date shown. We calculate this by dividing the 7-day total by the area population and multiplying by 100,000.

So if you have 700 cases in an area with a population of 10K you will have 700/10 000 x 100 000 = 7000 per 100k
if you have 700 cases in an area with a 100k people, you obviously get 700 per 100k

So we end up with figures on the latest map like this

Argyll and Bute, population 86K, 702 cases, 821 cases per 100k
Cumbria, population 500k, 1938 cases, 388 cases per 100k.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... -map/cases

[Sandstorm]

Don't know what the hell is happening in NI but they are drinking us dry of medical oxygen.

Asking the same for Scotland, they are over 100 cases / 100k . ????

There's a statistical anomaly at play, according the UK Gov site

Case rates are shown per 100,000 people for the 7-day period ending on the date shown. We calculate this by dividing the 7-day total by the area population and multiplying by 100,000.

So if you have 700 cases in an area with a population of 10K you will have 700/10 000 x 100 000 = 7000 per 100k
if you have 700 cases in an area with a 100k people, you obviously get 700 per 100k

So we end up with figures on the latest map like this

Argyll and Bute, population 86K, 702 cases, 821 cases per 100k
Cumbria, population 500k, 1938 cases, 388 cases per 100k.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... -map/cases

Maths is hard.

Let me take another Selfie.

[tc27]

I cant fathom why the two month delay in vaccines for teenagers? UK was miles ahead in the spring and is now behind pretty much everyone in this area.

[Sandstorm]

I cant fathom why the two month delay in vaccines for teenagers? UK was miles ahead in the spring and is now behind pretty much everyone in this area.

UK PLC is skint. Vaccines are expensive.

[BnM]

This explains the delay.

Not going to help take up and of course we don't have data for AZ because we didn't use it.

Boys more at risk from Pfizer jab side-effect than Covid, suggests study

US researchers say teenagers are more likely to get vaccine-related myocarditis than end up in hospital with Covid

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ests-study

[fishfoodie]

Politicians, & Journalists; are two groups who shouldn't be allowed near statistics; because the gobshites can't help themselves but to try & make the data into something they want; as opposed to asking what the data actually says.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-11/pes ... non-vaxxed

[SaintK]

No vaccine passports in England

A scheme for vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said.

Sajid Javid told the BBC: "We shouldn't be doing things for the sake of it."

He said the government had looked at the evidence, adding: "I'm pleased to say we will not be going ahead."

It was thought the plan, which came under criticism from venues and some MPs, would be introduced at the end of this month

[fishfoodie]

No vaccine passports in England

A scheme for vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said.

Sajid Javid told the BBC: "We shouldn't be doing things for the sake of it."

He said the government had looked at the evidence, adding: "I'm pleased to say we will not be going ahead."

It was thought the plan, which came under criticism from venues and some MPs, would be introduced at the end of this month

It's been awhile since they performed a U-Turn .....


.... and they'll probably do the complete 360 on this come flu season

[Sandstorm]

No vaccine passports in England

A scheme for vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said.

Sajid Javid told the BBC: "We shouldn't be doing things for the sake of it."

He said the government had looked at the evidence, adding: "I'm pleased to say we will not be going ahead."

It was thought the plan, which came under criticism from venues and some MPs, would be introduced at the end of this month

It's been awhile since they performed a U-Turn .....


.... and they'll probably do the complete 360 on this come flu season

Print the passport onto each face mask. Then get their PPE cronies to supply them.

[dpedin]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

[Tichtheid]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

The number of mask-wearers in Brighton is diminishing week by week, and we were apparently one of the more safety-conscious areas.

It makes me less likely to go to the pub or the cinema, and I'm a bit pissed off about it as Bond films are a guilty pleasure of mine.
I'll buy the DVD when it comes out.

[tc27]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

Noticed a few less masks than before - would say most people still wearing them indoors. Have to admit I don't bother with the 'mask on mask off' routine walking to a table in pub or restaurant anymore.

It should be noted the case rate in Scotland is currently over double that in England so perhaps people have a different perception of where the pandemic is at?

Wales 17,282 545.2
Scotland 44,741 818.5
Northern Ireland 10,757 567.5
England 193,771 342.7

[dpedin]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

Noticed a few less masks than before - would say most people still wearing them indoors. Have to admit I don't bother with the 'mask on mask off' routine walking to a table in pub or restaurant anymore.

It should be noted the case rate in Scotland is currently over double that in England so perhaps people have a different perception of where the pandemic is at?

Wales 17,282 545.2
Scotland 44,741 818.5
Northern Ireland 10,757 567.5
England 193,771 342.7

Agreed - the Scottish figure reflects the schools in Scotland going back earlier than in England. Rates astronomically high in younger school age groups - is was over 2,000 per week per 100k at one point! I have already had a couple of mates cancel nights out as their kids have come back from school with covid and they don't want to spread covid further. I suspect the English case rates will increase over next few weeks as the impact of schools and rates in kids increases.

Hearing that current modelling is pretty awful for early part of winter - covid, flu and other respiratory viruses plus impact of all this on staffing is going to be disastrous. NHS is going to be pretty close to collapse again.

[Dogbert]

It should also be noted that wearing a mask in Scotland is still a legal requirement in some locations , As far as I am aware there are no longer any legal requirements in England

[Paddington Bear]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

Yeah people have given up, been very noticeable the last few weeks. Still not enough messaging on ventilation anywhere, really don't get why.

[robmatic]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

Case rates are much higher in Scotland than in England, so I'm not sure why or what you are being amazed about.

Surely there is an acceptable price to pay in any case? It's an endemic disease that isn't going to go away and with high vaccine take up in the UK, it does start looking more like influenza in terms of impact and we don't see that as justifying constant public health interventions.

Personally speaking, I'm fully vaccinated and I've dramatically reduced my interactions with other people over the last 1.5 years. I'm not that keen on performative mask wearing for ever more.

[Paddington Bear]

There's only two places I'll still make sure to take a mask - the tube as it is still technically compulsory and basically common sense and the supermarket as it's an unventilated space with lots of older people around.
Wearing one outside or on the journey from the pub door to a table just seems silly (and always was).

[Slick]

There's only two places I'll still make sure to take a mask - the tube as it is still technically compulsory and basically common sense and the supermarket as it's an unventilated space with lots of older people around.
Wearing one outside or on the journey from the pub door to a table just seems silly (and always was).

I think I’ll continue wearing one on public transport for a while, more as a courtesy really.

Re pubs, it’s daft having to wear one to go to the toilet but you should still have to wear one going to the bar IMO, bit unfair on staff otherwise

[Biffer]

There's only two places I'll still make sure to take a mask - the tube as it is still technically compulsory and basically common sense and the supermarket as it's an unventilated space with lots of older people around.
Wearing one outside or on the journey from the pub door to a table just seems silly (and always was).

I think I’ll continue wearing one on public transport for a while, more as a courtesy really.

Re pubs, it’s daft having to wear one to go to the toilet but you should still have to wear one going to the bar IMO, bit unfair on staff otherwise

I’ve always thought wearing one to the toilet was actually sensible - it’s one of the few places a mask protects you rather than it protecting other people. Virus is often carried by human waste, and where there’s a damp, poorly ventilated environment you’re more likely to have the possibility of droplet transmission. Masks protect you a bit from droplets (but not aerosol).

[tc27]

With a mask my rule of thumb is any space where people who may be or feel vulnerable have no choice about being there - supermarkets and public transport mainly.

Of course its being less than two weeks since schools went back in England but it does look like the wave for the moment is declining:



In other parts of the UK my theory is that because England got hit hardest in the last couple of waves the virus has more places to go this time in the other nations.

[Slick]

Took the boy to his swimming lesson on Saturday and sat next to a mum who took her mask off. Anyway, she told me they had just come back from holiday 4 days before but their PCR tests hadn’t shown up in the post so they were just getting on with it. Her husband hadn’t been feeling well but was going to work because it was just a cold.

Yeah, you can guess the rest. FFS

Do I need to go and get a test now?

[fishfoodie]

Took the boy to his swimming lesson on Saturday and sat next to a mum who took her mask off. Anyway, she told me they had just come back from holiday 4 days before but their PCR tests hadn’t shown up in the post so they were just getting on with it. Her husband hadn’t been feeling well but was going to work because it was just a cold.

Yeah, you can guess the rest. FFS

Do I need to go and get a test now?

If you have to ask ... you already know the answer !

Oh; & does Pretty Vacant have a number you can report fuckwits to ?

[Slick]

Took the boy to his swimming lesson on Saturday and sat next to a mum who took her mask off. Anyway, she told me they had just come back from holiday 4 days before but their PCR tests hadn’t shown up in the post so they were just getting on with it. Her husband hadn’t been feeling well but was going to work because it was just a cold.

Yeah, you can guess the rest. FFS

Do I need to go and get a test now?

If you have to ask ... you already know the answer !

Oh; & does Pretty Vacant have a number you can report fuckwits to ?

Yeah I do… wedding anniversary lunch off tomorrow then

[Ovals]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

Yeah people have given up, been very noticeable the last few weeks. Still not enough messaging on ventilation anywhere, really don't get why.

Went shopping yesterday, in our local Waitrose, everyone was wearing a mask, not one maskless face. Every shop I've been into in the last month has been the same - everyone putting on masks as they go in and removing them as they leave. Haven't been to the local Asda for months, so I don't kow what it's like there, we always get deliveries from them and use Waitrose to top up once or twice a week.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Just back from a few days in England and I was amazed at the lack of masks being worn compared to up here. Supermarkets, shops, pubs, etc barely saw anyone wearing one. Didnt see staff in any of these places wearing one. Looks like the pandemic is over and the Blonde Bumblecunt was right ... 100 deaths a day/700 a week/35k+ a year is an acceptable price to pay.

Yeah people have given up, been very noticeable the last few weeks. Still not enough messaging on ventilation anywhere, really don't get why.

Went shopping yesterday, in our local Waitrose, everyone was wearing a mask, not one maskless face. Every shop I've been into in the last month has been the same - everyone putting on masks as they go in and removing them as they leave. Haven't been to the local Asda for months, so I don't kow what it's like there, we always get deliveries from them and use Waitrose to top up once or twice a week.

Mask wearing has dropped slightly at my local Waitrose. Down to around 90% of customers I estimate. The staff aren't wearing them.

I went in to London for the first time in a while last week and noticed compliance on the train & tube was down somewhat. There's zero enforcement taking place though.

[SaintK]

This is going to be somewhat divisive?

In his interviews this morning Nadhim Zahawi, the vaccine deployment minister, said children aged 12 to 15 would be able to decide to get vaccinated against the wishes of their parents - provided they were deemed competent to do so by a clinician. He told Sky News:

Children will have a leaflet that they can share with their parents and of course we have a consent form that will go to them either electronically and, in some schools physically, to their parents, and their parents will then read all the information, have to give consent if the child is to be vaccinated.

On the very rare occasion where there is a difference of opinion between the parent and the 12-15 year-old, where the parent for example doesn’t want to give consent but the 12-15 year-old wants to have the vaccine, then the first step is the clinician will bring the parent and the child together to see whether they can reach consent.

If that is not possible, then if the child is deemed to be competent - and this has been around since the ‘80s for all vaccination programmes in schools - if the child is deemed to be competent, Gillick competence as it is referred to, then the child can have the vaccine.

[Paddington Bear]

Not the main point with masks but there was a very interesting shift around last summer from people 'in the know' who went from masks don't work to masks being the crucial preventive measure. We'll probably largely pretend it didn't happen but it absolutely did and I find the psychology of it interesting.

[Slick]

This is going to be somewhat divisive?

In his interviews this morning Nadhim Zahawi, the vaccine deployment minister, said children aged 12 to 15 would be able to decide to get vaccinated against the wishes of their parents - provided they were deemed competent to do so by a clinician. He told Sky News:

Children will have a leaflet that they can share with their parents and of course we have a consent form that will go to them either electronically and, in some schools physically, to their parents, and their parents will then read all the information, have to give consent if the child is to be vaccinated.

On the very rare occasion where there is a difference of opinion between the parent and the 12-15 year-old, where the parent for example doesn’t want to give consent but the 12-15 year-old wants to have the vaccine, then the first step is the clinician will bring the parent and the child together to see whether they can reach consent.

If that is not possible, then if the child is deemed to be competent - and this has been around since the ‘80s for all vaccination programmes in schools - if the child is deemed to be competent, Gillick competence as it is referred to, then the child can have the vaccine.

They are not competent, stick it in their arms

[Dogbert]

This is going to be somewhat divisive?

In his interviews this morning Nadhim Zahawi, the vaccine deployment minister, said children aged 12 to 15 would be able to decide to get vaccinated against the wishes of their parents - provided they were deemed competent to do so by a clinician. He told Sky News:

Children will have a leaflet that they can share with their parents and of course we have a consent form that will go to them either electronically and, in some schools physically, to their parents, and their parents will then read all the information, have to give consent if the child is to be vaccinated.

On the very rare occasion where there is a difference of opinion between the parent and the 12-15 year-old, where the parent for example doesn’t want to give consent but the 12-15 year-old wants to have the vaccine, then the first step is the clinician will bring the parent and the child together to see whether they can reach consent.

If that is not possible, then if the child is deemed to be competent - and this has been around since the ‘80s for all vaccination programmes in schools - if the child is deemed to be competent, Gillick competence as it is referred to, then the child can have the vaccine.

They are not competent, stick it in their arms

As with all these issues it's just a little more complicated than that . I would have thought that the Gillick principle would apply in this case

"Children under the age of 16 can consent to their own treatment if they're believed to have enough intelligence, competence and understanding to fully appreciate what's involved in their treatment." , and I suspect that the reverse applies , and only in the case "If a young person refuses treatment, which may lead to their death or a severe permanent injury, their decision can be overruled by the Court of Protection." - and I don't see that applying here

I would have thought that every child over the age of 12 would have be deemed to meet that criteria

I they refuse to have the vaccine , what are you going to do , strap them down / dart them ?

I suspect that this will turn out to be a non issue , but something the MSM will get all hot and bothered by

[Biffer]

Not the main point with masks but there was a very interesting shift around last summer from people 'in the know' who went from masks don't work to masks being the crucial preventive measure. We'll probably largely pretend it didn't happen but it absolutely did and I find the psychology of it interesting.

Well yeah. That’s what happens in science - as the evidence changes you change your view. So far as I understand it (although this could be wrong) at the start of the pandemic, we were prepared for a flu pandemic so in the absence of other evidence, we proceeded on that basis. Flu spreads largely through surface contact. As we learnt a bit more, it became more evident that it was spreading through some form of airborne spread. At first that was thought to be droplets, then droplets and aerosols. That’s when mask became a lot more relevant.

[Lobby]

Not the main point with masks but there was a very interesting shift around last summer from people 'in the know' who went from masks don't work to masks being the crucial preventive measure. We'll probably largely pretend it didn't happen but it absolutely did and I find the psychology of it interesting.

Well yeah. That’s what happens in science - as the evidence changes you change your view. So far as I understand it (although this could be wrong) at the start of the pandemic, we were prepared for a flu pandemic so in the absence of other evidence, we proceeded on that basis. Flu spreads largely through surface contact. As we learnt a bit more, it became more evident that it was spreading through some form of airborne spread. At first that was thought to be droplets, then droplets and aerosols. That’s when mask became a lot more relevant.

There is also the issue that, at the start of the pandemic when the NHS and care homes were struggling to obtain PPE (including surgical masks) in sufficient numbers, telling the general public to also wear masks would have only led to more shortages. It was clearly more important to make sure masks were available for those that needed them most, and this allied to (at the time) limited evidence of their efficacy in reducing the spread amongst the general population, meant that there was no point in promoting their general use.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not convinced the science actually changed, maybe what we paid attention to did. See the SEA approach compared to ours. As I say, we'll pretend it didn't happen but interesting nonetheless.

[SaintK]

This is going to be somewhat divisive?

They are not competent, stick it in their arms

As with all these issues it's just a little more complicated than that . I would have thought that the Gillick principle would apply in this case

"Children under the age of 16 can consent to their own treatment if they're believed to have enough intelligence, competence and understanding to fully appreciate what's involved in their treatment." , and I suspect that the reverse applies , and only in the case "If a young person refuses treatment, which may lead to their death or a severe permanent injury, their decision can be overruled by the Court of Protection." - and I don't see that applying here

I would have thought that every child over the age of 12 would have be deemed to meet that criteria

I they refuse to have the vaccine , what are you going to do , strap them down / dart them ?

I suspect that this will turn out to be a non issue , but something the MSM will get all hot and bothered by

Certainly the Tory ultras are.

Sir Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said he was worried about teenagers being pressurised into getting vaccinated. He said:
The pressure will grow on the child. There is no way of legislating for this greater good concept that says, “The school may be in trouble, and your class may be in deep difficulty, if you do not take the vaccine.” I simply say ... this is a real problem for us. It will lead to disputes in families and real problems about children’s mental health in the opposite direction, as they are put under pressure. I wonder whether [Zahawi] and the government will think again about this.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown said:
I find what [Zahawi] has announced this evening deeply troubling. I think it will pit parents against parents and parents against teachers, with a poor child stuck in the middle wondering what to do. There will be very little benefit to the child, and there is a lack of long-term data on the potential harm. However, what concerns me above all is that the Gillick doctrine of treating children without parental consent will become the norm for a range of medical procedures.