Exeter Chiefs chop and imagery

[Niegs]

I supposed by some people's logic, the two 'Indians' about to kiss are teaching us about the concept of two-spirit third gender?

[Raggs]

You mean you guys missed the release of their new mascot? A hawk, which doesn't sound too bad, until he started posting on Twitter. He's called Tom-A-Hawk...

Someone must just be taking the piss. Within a few hours the official twitter account was deleted though.

[Biffer]

You mean you guys missed the release of their new mascot? A hawk, which doesn't sound too bad, until he started posting on Twitter. He's called Tom-A-Hawk...

Someone must just be taking the piss. Within a few hours the official twitter account was deleted though.

Yeah, saw that. Fits with respectfully honoring traditions, I'm sure.

[Niegs]

This is a significant step.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zqnr

[Ymx]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

[Kawazaki]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

It's not an angle started by me, there's a lot of studies that have looked at what makes imagery enduring and robust enough to survive from generation to generation. It's not just associated with a demographic or cultural group either.

I doubt most people in Scandinavia have ever heard of the Minnesota Vikings let alone worry about them misappropriating their cultural imagery for the last 60 years.

[Chrysoprase]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

Are they dressing up as William Wallace or as Mel Gibson? One is historically questionable and the other is racist and anti-semitic

[Tichtheid]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

Probably, as to whether or not I'd take offence it would depend on the context, but I'd reserve the right to say they were dickheads for doing it.

On the "robustness" of culture, Gaelic was outlawed in Scotland and the law was enforced at the end of a bayonet and rifle barrel, children were beaten in school for speaking the language they learned as babies. The Clearances were perhaps the biggest betrayal of Highland culture, it wasn't just the movement of people off the land, it was that the foundations of the culture itself were broken by the betrayal. It's not easy for a culture to survive that kind of treatment.

The Scots language went the same way but that was done differently, it was looked down upon and derided, that process even has a name, The Cultural Cringe.
There was an interesting programme about Walter Scott on tv the other week and it was interesting to hear that Scots was spoken at every level of society in his day, but that is not the case now. I was reprimanded and punished in school for speaking it, now I barely know any of the language spoken in my grandparents' house.

On the Vikings and Scandinavia, the Sami people suffered a similar fate, their languages were outlawed in Scandinavian countries. An unlikely counter to this comes from Disney of all things, they apparently hired people to consult on the Sami culture for the film Frozen, and it was well received by Samis.

[Tichtheid]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

Are they dressing up as William Wallace or as Mel Gibson? One is historically questionable and the other is racist and anti-semitic

one of the worst things I've ever seen was the sculpture of Wallace with Mel Gibson's puss on it.

There is a good new sculpture of Wallace and Gromit in Preston though, I much prefer that.

[Raggs]

This is a significant step.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zqnr

How is that a significant step? Someone who played for them 8 years ago, recognising it's an issue. Does he have any connection to them now?

[Paddington Bear]

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

Are they dressing up as William Wallace or as Mel Gibson? One is historically questionable and the other is racist and anti-semitic

one of the worst things I've ever seen was the sculpture of Wallace with Mel Gibson's puss on it.

There is a good new sculpture of Wallace and Gromit in Preston though, I much prefer that.

WW statue outside Brechin City FC, bloody funny

[Hal Jordan]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

Probably, as to whether or not I'd take offence it would depend on the context, but I'd reserve the right to say they were dickheads for doing it.

On the "robustness" of culture, Gaelic was outlawed in Scotland and the law was enforced at the end of a bayonet and rifle barrel, children were beaten in school for speaking the language they learned as babies. The Clearances were perhaps the biggest betrayal of Highland culture, it wasn't just the movement of people off the land, it was that the foundations of the culture itself were broken by the betrayal. It's not easy for a culture to survive that kind of treatment.

The Scots language went the same way but that was done differently, it was looked down upon and derided, that process even has a name, The Cultural Cringe.
There was an interesting programme about Walter Scott on tv the other week and it was interesting to hear that Scots was spoken at every level of society in his day, but that is not the case now. I was reprimanded and punished in school for speaking it, now I barely know any of the language spoken in my grandparents' house.

On the Vikings and Scandinavia, the Sami people suffered a similar fate, their languages were outlawed in Scandinavian countries. An unlikely counter to this comes from Disney of all things, they apparently hired people to consult on the Sami culture for the film Frozen, and it was well received by Samis.

Disney did the same thing with Moana. They got in experts from the South Pacific to ensure they got it right and didn't drop any cultural clangers, which included changing Maui's look from Dwayne Johnson bald to having a full head of hair.

Certainly a long way from Song of The South and the "What made the white man red?" song in Peter Pan.

[Openside]

You mean you guys missed the release of their new mascot? A hawk, which doesn't sound too bad, until he started posting on Twitter. He's called Tom-A-Hawk...

Someone must just be taking the piss. Within a few hours the official twitter account was deleted though.

[Biffer]

I’d say the less robust cultures would be those who were historically oppressed. Especially where the characterisations are styled during such a period of history.

And so if you’re not offended you’re an oppressor.

QED

On this angle, started by Toga.

English and other non Scot kids or even adults in fancy dress, dressing up as William Wallace ….

Is that cultural appropriation? Racist?

Probably, as to whether or not I'd take offence it would depend on the context, but I'd reserve the right to say they were dickheads for doing it.

On the "robustness" of culture, Gaelic was outlawed in Scotland and the law was enforced at the end of a bayonet and rifle barrel, children were beaten in school for speaking the language they learned as babies. The Clearances were perhaps the biggest betrayal of Highland culture, it wasn't just the movement of people off the land, it was that the foundations of the culture itself were broken by the betrayal. It's not easy for a culture to survive that kind of treatment.

The Scots language went the same way but that was done differently, it was looked down upon and derided, that process even has a name, The Cultural Cringe.
There was an interesting programme about Walter Scott on tv the other week and it was interesting to hear that Scots was spoken at every level of society in his day, but that is not the case now. I was reprimanded and punished in school for speaking it, now I barely know any of the language spoken in my grandparents' house.

On the Vikings and Scandinavia, the Sami people suffered a similar fate, their languages were outlawed in Scandinavian countries. An unlikely counter to this comes from Disney of all things, they apparently hired people to consult on the Sami culture for the film Frozen, and it was well received by Samis.

People often think that this happened in the nineteenth century. My father was beaten at school for speaking Gaelic, it was forbidden in the playground as well as the classroom. Always a caning.

[Biffer]

Exeter have finally got a sponsor for their totally not offensive shirts.

It's a property development company

That built the hotel at the ground

And is owned by Tony Rowe.

Looks like they were beating the sponsors off with a stick, eh.

[Niegs]

Exeter have finally got a sponsor for their totally not offensive shirts.

It's a property development company

That built the hotel at the ground

And is owned by Tony Rowe.

Looks like they were beating the sponsors off with a stick, eh.

It’s just struck me that one potential defence (though I can’t say I’ve heard this) is that rebranding during the pandemic would be expensive and risky with financial uncertainty (last season).

And now Tony is dumping how much more of his money into this stubborn defence?

[sockwithaticket]

Exeter have finally got a sponsor for their totally not offensive shirts.

It's a property development company

That built the hotel at the ground

And is owned by Tony Rowe.

Looks like they were beating the sponsors off with a stick, eh.

It’s just struck me that one potential defence (though I can’t say I’ve heard this) is that rebranding during the pandemic would be expensive and risky with financial uncertainty (last season).

And now Tony is dumping how much more of his money into this stubborn defence?

It's only a defence when accompanied with an acknowledgement that the branding is problematic (not just the mascot costume) and a commitment to change it in the future with some semblance of a meaningful roadmap/timeline.

[Biffer]

Also, this looks like it works out as a tax dodge for Tony Rowe (all legal, so avoidance not evasion).

What I said above isn’t entirely accurate, it’s not the hotel at the ground, it’s a business park that Tony Rowe owns. Which has no offices or businesses located at it. Pretty much a few acres of waste ground.

[Enzedder]

There's been a good few alternative designs thought up for a "Chiefs" logo that refers to the Dumnonii tribes that used to be in the area. The designs looked neat, just amateur stuff but looked a lot better than the native American caricature.

As a die-hard Chiefs fan for the NZ club, I can confirm that there is a way to do this properly that includes the culture of the region and doesn't mock it.

[I like neeps]

Their old sponsor SW Comms were also owned by Rowe no? This isn't very unusual.

[Kawazaki]

Tony Rowe looks like a right curmudgeonly old chippy bastard. I will laugh my tits off if Exeter get caught with dodgy accounts.

[sockwithaticket]

Wasps statement on Chiefs fans wearing inappropriate costume to games after being asked by fans whether they'd impose a ban

TL:DR - club won't pose a unilateral ban, they are taking the issue to Prem rugby and the RFU's new inclusion work group to try and get a more unified approach to the issue across the elite English game. Wasps very much would rather Chiefs fans didn't come to the stadium dressed like they just stepped out of an old Western.

The Club was recently asked by one of our supporter groups to review the wearing of faux Native American headdresses and other cultural signifiers at our stadium. We have found it difficult to know how best to deal with this issue, which is why we have taken time to consult those more knowledgeable about this subject, including a number of external stakeholders and members of the Native American community.

Wasps made a commitment to put equality, diversity and inclusion at the heart of what we do. This Club, and the wider rugby community, is at its best when every person involved in the game feels respected, included, and supported.

Recent events such as the Black Lives Matter movement, the continued racist abuse aimed at high profile sports stars and rising intolerance towards LGBTQ+ people have made it clear that diversity and inclusion are not just political issues, they are human ones.

We know that engaging in dialogue and being prepared to voice an opinion will sometimes be uncomfortable, difficult and may not always be popular. Having the conversation though and being willing to listen, question, reflect and learn, is how we move forward and hold ourselves to account.

Many topics and behaviours which were once tolerated, such as cultural appropriation, are no longer acceptable. Just because something isn’t offensive to you, doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive. Even though we do not want to create a professionally offended society, we do need to recognise that times and opinions change.

Since 2020, several sports teams around the world have recognised that the appropriation of another culture is something they can no longer justify. Last year there was a public focus on the prominent use of appropriated names and iconography by professional franchises including the Washington Football Team (formerly known as the ‘Redskins’ until July 2020) and in Canada, the Edmonton Eskimos have become the Edmonton Elks.

Respect for all cultures is a crucial part of including everyone in this amazing game. We at Wasps believe that cultural appropriation, “the act of taking or using things from a culture that is not your own, especially without showing that you understand or respect this culture” and, therefore, the wearing of faux Native American headdresses has the potential to cause offence and doesn’t align with our values.

However, having taken counsel on this issue, it is clear that to drive real change we need a sport wide position to be reached. We have, therefore, approached Premiership Rugby, the RFU and the RFU’s newly formed Diversity and Inclusion working group to ask that this issue is formally addressed.

At this current time, we will not be issuing an arena wide ban on the wearing of faux Native American attire, as one club acting in isolation has the potential to cause further division and uncertainty. However, we do not support the wearing of such items, discourage supporters from wearing them and will be revisiting this decision in due course.

Wasps want to be part of positive Equality, Diversity and Inclusivity change, and will continue to encourage the entire rugby community to take action against inequality and other forms of discrimination. We are committed to doing more to tackle racism and to championing diversity in sport.

[Kawazaki]

Looks a lot like woke opportunism by Wasps. I'd be far more impressed if Wasps fans all dressed as cowboys.

[Slick]

Looks a lot like woke opportunism by Wasps. I'd be far more impressed if Wasps fans all dressed as cowboys.

I don’t think you have read it properly. I think that is a very well crafted statement, good on them

[JM2K6]

Well done Wasps.

Whichever fucking idiot at Exeter thought this would just go away if they announced they weren't changing anything because the club and some fans are happy with the status quo needs to consider their position.

[sockwithaticket]

Looks a lot like woke opportunism by Wasps. I'd be far more impressed if Wasps fans all dressed as cowboys.

Not sure how it's opportunism? This was something that was directly put to them, publicly, by some Wasps fans. Not responding wasn't really an option and that statement is certainly in line with the values the club have professed around the BLM stuff.

Dressing as cowboys would simply play into the idea that Chiefs' appropriation and caricaturing is harmless fun rather than offensive to the people being caricatured and having elements of their culture appropriated.

[Kawazaki]

Look, I get it, I really do. But how many fans do Wasps actually have? 5,000?, 10,000? 50,000 perhaps? And how many of those are part of this supporters group? 5?, 10?, 50?

This could have be dealt with through different channels, probably small enough numbers for a personal visit from the CEO.

[sockwithaticket]

Look, I get it, I really do. But how many fans do Wasps actually have? 5,000?, 10,000? 50,000 perhaps? And how many of those are part of this supporters group? 5?, 10?, 50?

This could have be dealt with through different channels, probably small enough numbers for a personal visit from the CEO.

Our average home gate pre-covid was around 16,0000. I'm not sure which supporter group raised it and how numerous they might be.

Both when teaching and now training in my current workplace, the number of people who actually pop their hand up to ask a question tends to be pretty small, but it's often apparent that plenty more who were keeping quiet either wanted to ask it too or weren't aware that it was something they wanted answering until hearing it out loud. So I wouldn't say that a supporter's group are necessarily a tiny minority only representing themselves by challenging the club to come with a response.

The Chiefs issue has a fair amount of visibility in rugby circles and I only see it gathering more momentum as time rolls on. Better to get out ahead of things with a public statement than the CEO saying a few things in private to one or two individuals. If it's something he's prepared to say to them is the club's position then I'm happy for that position to be made visible to all supporters.

[Paddington Bear]

Very mature and even statement. The idea that it's 'woke' is just daft.

[Kawazaki]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainmen ... 879161.amp

This might be the thread for it. Superman's son is bisexual.

You'd need lube.

[Slick]

Look, I get it, I really do. But how many fans do Wasps actually have? 5,000?, 10,000? 50,000 perhaps? And how many of those are part of this supporters group? 5?, 10?, 50?

This could have be dealt with through different channels, probably small enough numbers for a personal visit from the CEO.

You are a very silly person sometimes.

[Kawazaki]

Look, I get it, I really do. But how many fans do Wasps actually have? 5,000?, 10,000? 50,000 perhaps? And how many of those are part of this supporters group? 5?, 10?, 50?

This could have be dealt with through different channels, probably small enough numbers for a personal visit from the CEO.

You are a very silly person sometimes.

There are 13 clubs in the Premiership, do you think the demographics of the fans from the other 11 clubs are vastly different in how they view Exeter Chiefs?

[Raggs]

Look, I get it, I really do. But how many fans do Wasps actually have? 5,000?, 10,000? 50,000 perhaps? And how many of those are part of this supporters group? 5?, 10?, 50?

This could have be dealt with through different channels, probably small enough numbers for a personal visit from the CEO.

You are a very silly person sometimes.

There are 13 clubs in the Premiership, do you think the demographics of the fans from the other 11 clubs are vastly different in how they view Exeter Chiefs?

No i don't. Which is why you can find quite a few asking their clubs for similar statements...

[Kawazaki]

I probably dislike Exeter as much if not more than any other club, I'm not defending them or their use of native American iconography. However, I don't think a very small minority fan's group from another club 200 miles away from Exeter is the way to deal with this. If those fans feel strongly about it then they should boycott watching Wasps the one time every year that Exeter play there and maybe hold up a few placards outside the ground. The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

[Raggs]

I probably dislike Exeter as much if not more than any other club, I'm not defending them or their use of native American iconography. However, I don't think a very small minority fan's group from another club 200 miles away from Exeter is the way to deal with this. If those fans feel strongly about it then they should boycott watching Wasps the one time every year that Exeter play there and maybe hold up a few placards outside the ground. The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

How would boycotting a home wasps game help?

[Happyhooker]

I probably dislike Exeter as much if not more than any other club, I'm not defending them or their use of native American iconography. However, I don't think a very small minority fan's group from another club 200 miles away from Exeter is the way to deal with this. If those fans feel strongly about it then they should boycott watching Wasps the one time every year that Exeter play there and maybe hold up a few placards outside the ground. The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

Yea, causing your own club to lose money is the way to hurt Exeter

[Paddington Bear]

The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

Isn't this... exactly what the statement infers they're doing?

[Kawazaki]

I probably dislike Exeter as much if not more than any other club, I'm not defending them or their use of native American iconography. However, I don't think a very small minority fan's group from another club 200 miles away from Exeter is the way to deal with this. If those fans feel strongly about it then they should boycott watching Wasps the one time every year that Exeter play there and maybe hold up a few placards outside the ground. The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

How would boycotting a home wasps game help?

They don't want to legitimise the game by paying to watch it. They either feel strongly about it or they don't.

[Kawazaki]

The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

Isn't this... exactly what the statement infers they're doing?

There was a time when people did things through channels other than social media. I'm no expert, but I reckon Rowe operates in those channels.

[Raggs]

I probably dislike Exeter as much if not more than any other club, I'm not defending them or their use of native American iconography. However, I don't think a very small minority fan's group from another club 200 miles away from Exeter is the way to deal with this. If those fans feel strongly about it then they should boycott watching Wasps the one time every year that Exeter play there and maybe hold up a few placards outside the ground. The way to deal with Exeter is to have a unified opposition with all the other Premiership club chairmen to put pressure on Rowe.

How would boycotting a home wasps game help?

They don't want to legitimise the game by paying to watch it. They either feel strongly about it or they don't.

Ok. So they're sending a message. Who are they sending the message to?

Wasps and Exeter.

Seems easier to just use email and Twitter etc.

Oh. They did use email and Twitter, which is is how we got to this point of wasps initiating the conversation with the league and rfu...

You seem to be busy arguing against what's been done by saying that they should do what they've done...