So, coronavirus...

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I don't know what Clifton-Brown means by the Gillick doctrine will become the norm, it's already the norm and quite reasonably so. Does he mean there'll be a huge divide between parents and children, maybe that's what their analysis tells them in advance, but I'd assume it will not be the norm, and where there is a split the parents and child discussing it with the clinician will resolve much of any small problem that arises before we get to a child being deemed to be able to and actually overriding the wishes of the parent? And that creating a huge divide now between parents and children will mean future medial treatments will see Gillick employed as a norm? I don't even know what % of kids use Gillick for something like contraception, not a majority I'm assuming, maybe he has a different definition of 'norm'

I think they've rather moved the goalposts here on what's covered by Gillick as they've bolted on an undefinable aspect of mental health to bump the benefits over the risks, the JCVI still seemed fairly sold the risks outweighed (perhaps only marginally) the benefits. And thus imo vaxxing the kids is rather more about society than the kids directly and that seems a little different. Not going to be an issue in out house, the kid'll want the vaccine and we'll be satisfied it's her call so she can have parental consent from the outset. I'm still a little iffy mind where there isn't consent that a child can elect for a procedure that may represent more risk to them than benefit, that does seem an ethical shift, and one that could and should be discussed, and this was almost certainly going to be an issue from some months back so they could've gotten on with it by now.

[Biffer]

I'm not convinced the science actually changed, maybe what we paid attention to did. See the SEA approach compared to ours. As I say, we'll pretend it didn't happen but interesting nonetheless.

Can you point to any research into coronavirus spread prior to January 2020?

[SaintK]

Julia Hartley-Brewer going full Bimbot on vaccinating 12-15 year olds on this thread.

[Uncle fester]

Not the main point with masks but there was a very interesting shift around last summer from people 'in the know' who went from masks don't work to masks being the crucial preventive measure. We'll probably largely pretend it didn't happen but it absolutely did and I find the psychology of it interesting.

Well yeah. That’s what happens in science - as the evidence changes you change your view. So far as I understand it (although this could be wrong) at the start of the pandemic, we were prepared for a flu pandemic so in the absence of other evidence, we proceeded on that basis. Flu spreads largely through surface contact. As we learnt a bit more, it became more evident that it was spreading through some form of airborne spread. At first that was thought to be droplets, then droplets and aerosols. That’s when mask became a lot more relevant.

There is also the issue that, at the start of the pandemic when the NHS and care homes were struggling to obtain PPE (including surgical masks) in sufficient numbers, telling the general public to also wear masks would have only led to more shortages. It was clearly more important to make sure masks were available for those that needed them most, and this allied to (at the time) limited evidence of their efficacy in reducing the spread amongst the general population, meant that there was no point in promoting their general use.

The same scientists who backed the British government's "herd immunity" plan?
Yeah, they were pretty impartial and led by science alright.

[Uncle fester]

I'm not convinced the science actually changed, maybe what we paid attention to did. See the SEA approach compared to ours. As I say, we'll pretend it didn't happen but interesting nonetheless.

Can you point to any research into coronavirus spread prior to January 2020?

They've been tracking coronavirus infections for nearly 100 years now. Human coronavirus has been known since 1960's. SARS-1 and MERS are two of the more dangerous ones to pop up before the current covid 19.

[Biffer]

I'm not convinced the science actually changed, maybe what we paid attention to did. See the SEA approach compared to ours. As I say, we'll pretend it didn't happen but interesting nonetheless.

Can you point to any research into coronavirus spread prior to January 2020?

They've been tracking coronavirus infections for nearly 100 years now. Human coronavirus has been known since 1960's. SARS-1 and MERS are two of the more dangerous ones to pop up before the current covid 19.

There’s been research into coronaviruses, their genetics, the diseases they cause. Anything about their spread and infection routes?

[Uncle fester]

Are you actually serious?

[Calculon]

Well yeah. That’s what happens in science - as the evidence changes you change your view. So far as I understand it (although this could be wrong) at the start of the pandemic, we were prepared for a flu pandemic so in the absence of other evidence, we proceeded on that basis. Flu spreads largely through surface contact. As we learnt a bit more, it became more evident that it was spreading through some form of airborne spread. At first that was thought to be droplets, then droplets and aerosols. That’s when mask became a lot more relevant.

There is also the issue that, at the start of the pandemic when the NHS and care homes were struggling to obtain PPE (including surgical masks) in sufficient numbers, telling the general public to also wear masks would have only led to more shortages. It was clearly more important to make sure masks were available for those that needed them most, and this allied to (at the time) limited evidence of their efficacy in reducing the spread amongst the general population, meant that there was no point in promoting their general use.

The same scientists who backed the British government's "herd immunity" plan?
Yeah, they were pretty impartial and led by science alright.

In America, mask wearing instantly became a political thing. In the UK, the government scientists recommended not wearing them. Meanwhile in the rest of the world people started wearing masks without any issues.

[Paddington Bear]

There is also the issue that, at the start of the pandemic when the NHS and care homes were struggling to obtain PPE (including surgical masks) in sufficient numbers, telling the general public to also wear masks would have only led to more shortages. It was clearly more important to make sure masks were available for those that needed them most, and this allied to (at the time) limited evidence of their efficacy in reducing the spread amongst the general population, meant that there was no point in promoting their general use.

The same scientists who backed the British government's "herd immunity" plan?
Yeah, they were pretty impartial and led by science alright.

In America, mask wearing instantly became a political thing. In the UK, the government scientists recommended not wearing them. Meanwhile in the rest of the world people started wearing masks without any issues.

Yeah maybe I'm being parochial (haven't left the country since the pandemic anyway). However 'masks don't work' was the sincerely held position of much of the 'smarter' end of British life, until it wasn't. No dig at anyone, I just find the psychology interesting.

[Calculon]

Oh, I agree with you, and I also find it interesting. Not only why it changed in the UK but also why it was different in the first place

Actually Sweden never mandated masks.

[Kiwias]

Oh, I agree with you, and I also find it interesting. Not only why it changed in the UK but also why it was different in the first place

Actually Sweden never mandated masks.

Neither did Japan but wearing masks has long been a common practice here for colds, hay fever, etc. etc.

[Sandstorm]

UK went all in for "Wash your hands"

[Tichtheid]

I remember seeing a meme saying something like, "You think wearing a mask is uncomfortable?" above an illustration of how an intubation is done.

[Calculon]

Oh, I agree with you, and I also find it interesting. Not only why it changed in the UK but also why it was different in the first place

Actually Sweden never mandated masks.

Neither did Japan but wearing masks has long been a common practice here for colds, hay fever, etc. etc.

same in China, and I suspect some teens wore masks because they were being trendy or wanted to hide some zits

[fishfoodie]

Another vile scumbag bites the dust

Bob Enyart, conservative firebrand and pastor, dies of COVID-19

Conservative firebrand Bob Enyart, the pastor of the Denver Bible Church and indelible talk show host, has died from COVID-19, his radio co-host announced Monday on Facebook.

“Bob Enyart was one of the smartest, and without question, the wisest person I’ve known,” Fred Williams, Enyart’s co-host on the Real Science Radio show, said in a post.

Enyart and his wife refused to get the vaccine due to abortion concerns, he said on his website.

In October, Enyart successfully sued the state over mask mandates and capacity limits in churches, a rare legal victory against broad public health mandates instituted during the pandemic.

Pushing the limits never bothered Enyart.

He once traveled to New Zealand for the sole purpose of being arrested with a “Clinton is a Rapist” banner, according to a 1999 Westword profile.

On his old TV show, Bob Enyart Live, the host would “gleefully read obituaries of AIDS sufferers while cranking ‘Another One Bites the Dust’ by Queen,” Westword reported.

...

“Heaven’s gain has left an enormous hole here on earth,” Williams wrote. “Bob’s enduring legacy will live on with the treasure trove he leaves behind.”

I don't know of any flavor of Christianity, that allows such a vile individual ending up in "Heaven" !

[Insane_Homer]

UK #DailyCovidUpdate | 15th September 2021

- Cases: 7,312,683 (+30,597)
- Average Cases: 31,772.14

- Deaths (28-day): 134,647 (+201)
- Deaths (60-day): 153,835 (+236)
- Average Deaths: 139.00

- Vaccine [1st dose]: 48,480,178 (+21,478)
- Vaccine [2nd dose]: 44,170,373 (+61,627) https://t.co/qaZ0cSrcx1

[Ovals]

UK went all in for "Wash your hands"

In the early days the UK scientists appeared to believe that Covid transmission was predominantly by physically touching a contaminated surface. It soon becam apparent that it was airborn particles that were the biggest danger - hence, the move to masks.

[Uncle fester]

UK went all in for "Wash your hands"

In the early days the UK scientists appeared to believe that Covid transmission was predominantly by physically touching a contaminated surface. It soon becam apparent that it was airborn particles that were the biggest danger - hence, the move to masks.

Or they let themselves be "influenced". There was very clear political pressure on the decision making process and it was only the big public uproar that reversed the initial "herd immunity" strategy.

[BnM]

Govt wants to charge for LFTs, seems like a sound idea

[Hong Kong]

[fishfoodie]

Covid really has turbo charged Darwin; it's no wonder the GOP is shitting themselves over the mid-terrms; Ruberts great; "culture wars", plan has meant that they've gone from being, odds on to retake the house; to scrambing to work out if they'll have killed so many of their own supporters, that they may end up even worse off.

You'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh.

[mat the expat]

Not strictly covid-related, but read a post regarding the California elections from someone with similar (and very common views):

"Taking tax from the rich is just enabling the government to infringe our rights more"

[Rinkals]

If you are trying to disincentivise anyone in the third World from getting vaccinated, this should help:

[Calculon]

Well, the rest of Europe has opened up to South Africans but south africans still banned from the UK

[Rinkals]

Oddly enough, it seems Kenya is exempt.

Is there someone in Johnson's cabinet with Kenyan connections?

[fishfoodie]

Oddly enough, it seems Kenya is exempt.

Is there someone in Johnson's cabinet with Kenyan connections?

I assume ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... Unit_Kenya

[Slick]

Oddly enough, it seems Kenya is exempt.

Is there someone in Johnson's cabinet with Kenyan connections?

I’ll stand corrected from assfly maybe but I think they haven’t been doing too badly on the vaccine roll out.

In saying that, Kenyatta was here a few weeks ago meeting Boris so I expect there was some hard lobbying going on

[Calculon]

Oddly enough, it seems Kenya is exempt.

Is there someone in Johnson's cabinet with Kenyan connections?

I’ll stand corrected from assfly maybe but I think they haven’t been doing too badly on the vaccine roll out.

In saying that, Kenyatta was here a few weeks ago meeting Boris so I expect there was some hard lobbying going on

According to the Web 1.6% of population fully vaccinated in Kenya as opposed to 13% in South Africa. That gap is widening. both figures are too low tbh.

[Slick]

Oddly enough, it seems Kenya is exempt.

Is there someone in Johnson's cabinet with Kenyan connections?

I’ll stand corrected from assfly maybe but I think they haven’t been doing too badly on the vaccine roll out.

In saying that, Kenyatta was here a few weeks ago meeting Boris so I expect there was some hard lobbying going on

According to the Web 1.6% of population fully vaccinated in Kenya as opposed to 13% in South Africa. That gap is widening. both figures are too low tbh.

I find those figures a bit hard to believe for Kenya from what I’ve been hearing

[Calculon]

I’ll stand corrected from assfly maybe but I think they haven’t been doing too badly on the vaccine roll out.

In saying that, Kenyatta was here a few weeks ago meeting Boris so I expect there was some hard lobbying going on

According to the Web 1.6% of population fully vaccinated in Kenya as opposed to 13% in South Africa. That gap is widening. both figures are too low tbh.

I find those figures a bit hard to believe for Kenya from what I’ve been hearing

Maybe, I've had another look and also got a figure of 2.9 % fully vaccinated for Kenya. According to ourworldindata.org., 3.29million doses administered in Kenya, total population a little bit over 55 million. I would think the doses figure should be fairly accurate.

Despite the pretense of "following the science" it's pretty obvious the decisions were based on political lobbying and prejudice. Doesn't say much for SAs ability to lobby the UK government though. Also looks a bit silly when a vaccinated saffa can fly into Germany without having to quarantine or self isolate but is completely barred from entering the UK.

[Lemoentjie]

I've been offered the vaccine recently, though I am reluctant to take it as I have natural immunity from infection. My older relatives have now received it.

I saw on Twitter that the British 'modellers' got their summer modelling completely wrong and were demanding restrictions. Fortunately, for once, a government ignored their demands for a hyper-safe hand-holding world, and the sky didn't fall in.

[Biffer]

I've been offered the vaccine recently, though I am reluctant to take it as I have natural immunity from infection. My older relatives have now received it.

I saw on Twitter that the British 'modellers' got their summer modelling completely wrong and were demanding restrictions. Fortunately, for once, a government ignored their demands for a hyper-safe hand-holding world, and the sky didn't fall in.

Natural immunity wanes in the same way as the vaccine, more or less.

[fishfoodie]

90% of over 16s now vaccinated in Ireland !

[dpedin]

I've been offered the vaccine recently, though I am reluctant to take it as I have natural immunity from infection. My older relatives have now received it.

I saw on Twitter that the British 'modellers' got their summer modelling completely wrong and were demanding restrictions. Fortunately, for once, a government ignored their demands for a hyper-safe hand-holding world, and the sky didn't fall in.

Just a 7 day average of c145 deaths a day which is 1000 deaths a week or c50,000 per annum in the UK at the moment and one of the highest case rates per 100k of population across comparable countries in the world. Just over 135,000 deaths from covid so far. NHS is struggling and army are called in to help support NHS/ambulance services - 8,000 patients with covid currently in hospital and 1,000 in ICU. Biggest ever in history backlog of patients on our waiting lists for treatment, c5.3 million, and winter will see this get much, much worse. Many routine and non routine/emergency operations are being cancelled due to lack of capacity and patients are turning up sicker and with more advanced illness due to delays in treatment. Care sector is collapsing due to lack of staff, don't mention Brexit, and creating a backlog of patients in hospital who have nowhere to be discharged to. Our 'world beating' vaccine roll-out has slowed down and is getting overtaken by the likes of Spain, Belgium, Ireland and Denmark despite our head start. Apart from all that everything here is hunky dory and apparently the pandemic is over in the UK.

Personally, I would get the vaccine, both doses, there is clear evidence that it works, is safe and it would provide extra protection as any 'natural immunity' starts to wane or if new variants come along. It would also slow down, but not prevent, any transmission from yourself to older relatives and vice versa - remember the vaccine offers c80-85% protection, natural immunity probably less, which although very high is not 100%, so they can still become infected and ill with covid. I would have as many barriers as possible ie vaccine, regular testing, masks, etc to catching and/or spreading the virus. It is easy to do, costs feck all and may save a life.

[tc27]

I am not pleased the vaccine roll out has slowed down to trickle and we have dithered so long over offering it to children but I would swap our success in the spring for having a marginally greater % vaccinated now. We are at 90%is with at least one shot which is the benchmark that was given for a successful campaign.

[dpedin]

I am not pleased the vaccine roll out has slowed down to trickle and we have dithered so long over offering it to children but I would swap our success in the spring for having a marginally greater % vaccinated now. We are at 90%is with at least one shot which is the benchmark that was given for a successful campaign.

Don't disagree - I just think it's interesting that the 'world beating' has been quietly dropped by the Gov when talking about the vaccination roll out.

[Sandstorm]

I am not pleased the vaccine roll out has slowed down to trickle and we have dithered so long over offering it to children but I would swap our success in the spring for having a marginally greater % vaccinated now. We are at 90%is with at least one shot which is the benchmark that was given for a successful campaign.

I want a booster next month.

[Calculon]

I've been offered the vaccine recently, though I am reluctant to take it as I have natural immunity from infection. My older relatives have now received it.

don't be a twat, taking the vaccine is only going to give another boost to your immune system

[Ovals]

I've been offered the vaccine recently, though I am reluctant to take it as I have natural immunity from infection. My older relatives have now received it.

don't be a twat, taking the vaccine is only going to give another boost to your immune system

Too late for the 1st part, but not too late for the 2nd

[Lemoentjie]

I've been offered the vaccine recently, though I am reluctant to take it as I have natural immunity from infection. My older relatives have now received it.

don't be a twat, taking the vaccine is only going to give another boost to your immune system

Is it?

I don't have any problems with vaccination (apart from the crazy profit margins that Pfizer are putting on their product) and if I hadn't been previously infected, then a vaccination would be a less risky method of protection that infection.

Maybe I can just ask for 1 dose