When do World Rugby string up Rassie Erasmus?

[JM2K6]

Nic Berry coming under sustained attack on the ol' social medias. What a surprise. What a wonderful evolution of our sport.

Wankers in sport have always been a thing. Look at the saffer ref at the end of the 1974 Lions tour. Rage and death threats have always occurred. It's just that social media makes it all be seen by everybody instantly rather than wait fro the press to decide to report it or not later.

That's a pretty facile comparison. Social media has vastly increased the scale and length of these things. You now no longer need to be physically present, for a start.

[Biffer]

Agree 100%

But that doesn’t invalidate his statement that him being told to go away while AWJ was given access to the referee could be interpreted as disrespect. (The referees we reviewing a try and he wanted to request they check that Mapimpi was being held back in a kick chase…which was the case…but which was also irrelevant as an infringement accursed before that.)

Nor does it support their claim that that statement in any way shape or form accused them of racism.

Ironically, the indignation that they think that is what Siya was accusing the officials of, simply because it is a black man making the accusation, kind of shows the bias among the judiciary IMO (not the officials of the match)

Really, so fucking what if a player feels disrespected.

This is not Kolisi's mess. Why even vokken involve him ffs.
None of the players should be involved with this. Nienaber should stay the vok out of it too. Let it be about Rassie but not the Springbok team.

Should be asking Rassie that question. Unlike other coaches who are arseholes (see Eddie Jones) he's putting layers into the middle of his shit pile rather than using his antics to take attention and media pressure away from them.

[Sards]

Fucking hell. So let me get this right, Erasmus threatened to release the video unless Berry called him. Instead, Berry went through the video and replied via email point-by-point to each of the objections Erasmus made in the video and sent that email to Erasmus late on the Tuesday evening. Erasmus still released the video anyway on the Wednesday.

What a total cunt. A sociopath.

I think it's actually worse than that from what I've seen. Although I can't confirm, the timeline seems to be:

Sunday - Rassie sends his matrix
Monday morning - Berry replies to all points. Also note he concedes some and disputes others which seems very fair.
Tuesday morning - Berry receives this: "thank you" - nothing else
Tuesday evening - Rassie makes his threat even though he has the feedback
Wednesday - releases video,

That image from the evidence shows the SMS was sent 23:22 PM on the Monday evening, not Monday morning.
Not that that excuses anything, but let's just be accurate.

I thought that too. But looking at how many clips he had to watch over and over, if he analysed it properly , it must have been quite a task. If you factor in toilets, meals, doing fokol or whatever.

[Raggs]

Working till past eleven at night to try and give answers for queries, to get stabbed in the back anyway.

[Kawazaki]

Working till past eleven at night to try and give answers for queries, to get stabbed in the back anyway.

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

[SaintK]

Working till past eleven at night to try and give answers for queries, to get stabbed in the back anyway.

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

Completely. And hasn't even had the balls to apologise to him either.

[Sandstorm]

However please don’t think that the majority of fans think Berry is a racist. We called him a shite ref when Jean de Villiers tried to have a word as skipper.

What match was this?

I think Sandy is confused.

Berry has only officiated 3 Bok matches:

27 Jul 2019 New Zealand Draw: 16-16 WestPac Stadium, Wellington
06 Sep 2019 Japan Win: 41-7 Kumagaya Rugby Stadium, Saitama
24 Jul 2021 B&I Lions Lose: 17-22 Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town

Stomps suffered his crap skills for years too.

[Sandstorm]

Working till past eleven at night to try and give answers for queries, to get stabbed in the back anyway.

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

Rassie wasn’t thinking about Berry or his feelings. He was only interested in the Boks getting a fair shake from the next ref in the next Test.

It wasn’t nice or right, but it was effective.

[Raggs]

Working till past eleven at night to try and give answers for queries, to get stabbed in the back anyway.

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

Rassie wasn’t thinking about Berry or his feelings. He was only interested in the Boks getting a fair shake from the next ref in the next Test.

It wasn’t nice or right, but it was effective.

A fair shake? He attempted to blackmail a referee... and then basically carried through with that threat, despite Berry clearly going out of his way to try and help Rassie out.

EDIT - Are we saying if the Boks don't win, then clearly it's the ref's fault every time? It's only fair when they win?

[handyman]

Root cause analysis. If only Berry did his job well, none of this would have happened.

[Sandstorm]

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

Rassie wasn’t thinking about Berry or his feelings. He was only interested in the Boks getting a fair shake from the next ref in the next Test.

It wasn’t nice or right, but it was effective.

A fair shake? He attempted to blackmail a referee... and then basically carried through with that threat, despite Berry clearly going out of his way to try and help Rassie out.

EDIT - Are we saying if the Boks don't win, then clearly it's the ref's fault every time? It's only fair when they win?

No, I’m not saying that. I’m just telling what Erasmus did and why.

Berry wasn’t trying “to help Rassie out”, he was arguing with him and defending himself. Which is natural and he’s entitled to do that. He didn’t have to either……or perhaps it was unwise and his bosses should have issued guidelines to all refs in this matter.

I hope they have already, refs need protection.

[Kawazaki]

Working till past eleven at night to try and give answers for queries, to get stabbed in the back anyway.

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

Rassie wasn’t thinking about Berry or his feelings. He was only interested in the Boks getting a fair shake from the next ref in the next Test.

It wasn’t nice or right, but it was effective.

What Erasmus did would be a very nasty thing to do to somebody that you really hated. For the head of rugby of the RWC champions to make that video about a referee? And then feed it to the online thugs to do their worst? That's something way beyond anything we've seen before. I've been looking at Twitter and some Facebook today and the hate for Berry is visceral. He's copping all the blame for this, all of it. That grinning sociopath you lot call Rassie thinks he's a hero. It's all a big laugh.

This is a very bleak dark day for rugby.

[Chilli]

Nic Berry coming under sustained attack on the ol' social medias. What a surprise. What a wonderful evolution of our sport.

Have you read this garbage from Keohane?

https://www.keo.co.za/rassie-latest-wor ... eaking-up/


It looks just plain libelous to me.

If you are stupid enough to read Keo then you deserve to get what's coming to you.

[Sandstorm]

This is central for me. Berry did everything asked of him. Literally everything. And still Erasmus fucked him.

Rassie wasn’t thinking about Berry or his feelings. He was only interested in the Boks getting a fair shake from the next ref in the next Test.

It wasn’t nice or right, but it was effective.

What Erasmus did would be a very nasty thing to do to somebody that you really hated. For the head of rugby of the RWC champions to make that video about a referee? And then feed it to the online thugs to do their worst? That's something way beyond anything we've seen before. I've been looking at Twitter and some Facebook today and the hate for Berry is visceral. He's copping all the blame for this, all of it. That grinning sociopath you lot call Rassie thinks he's a hero. It's all a big laugh.

This is a very bleak dark day for rugby.

Head of RWC Champions? Is that the main issue?

Is it ok if Andy Farrell sends the video?

[Kawazaki]

Nic Berry coming under sustained attack on the ol' social medias. What a surprise. What a wonderful evolution of our sport.

Have you read this garbage from Keohane?

https://www.keo.co.za/rassie-latest-wor ... eaking-up/


It looks just plain libelous to me.

If you are stupid enough to read Keo then you deserve to get what's coming to you.

Never heard of him before. He's got plenty of followers. He's unhinged. Thinks World Rugby are white supremacists.

[Kawazaki]

Rassie wasn’t thinking about Berry or his feelings. He was only interested in the Boks getting a fair shake from the next ref in the next Test.

It wasn’t nice or right, but it was effective.

What Erasmus did would be a very nasty thing to do to somebody that you really hated. For the head of rugby of the RWC champions to make that video about a referee? And then feed it to the online thugs to do their worst? That's something way beyond anything we've seen before. I've been looking at Twitter and some Facebook today and the hate for Berry is visceral. He's copping all the blame for this, all of it. That grinning sociopath you lot call Rassie thinks he's a hero. It's all a big laugh.

This is a very bleak dark day for rugby.

Head of RWC Champions? Is that the main issue?

Is it ok if Andy Farrell sends the video?

No it isn't, as you well know.

Talk about concentrating on the wrong thing though. Well done.


Ffs.


I've never really disliked any other team before. Until Erasmus arrived.

[Kawazaki]

.

[Sandstorm]

Bollocks Toga. You hate a different club or Test side every month. You’re angry and a liar. Take a chill pill.

[Chilli]

South African rugby is talking itself out of test rugby. They appear to think they are on a crusade, that they've been terribly wronged and they're somehow the good guys who will clean up the game.

It's mass delusion. Saffa rugby is going to land with a very heavy bump and you'll wonder wtf has happened. Put simply, without referees you don't play a game, without a governing body you don't play a game. World Rugby and every referee in the world outside South Africa will always be on the side of Berry, that won't change regardless of how poorly you or anyone else thinks he refereed the first Lions test.

I've never seen anyone or anything choose to die on a lower hill than this one. It's tragic but it's so clear to see how this one pans out.

More water.
Less Whisky.

[Chilli]

Most Saffers I know are split on the Rassie issue. Using Mark Keohane's clickbait as some kind of indicator of how South Africans feel about it is going to give you the wrong impression. He's a Neil Francis/Stephen Jones style hack. He's also a cocaine fiend.

Rassie is a winner. He'll be back from this and hopefully will learn his lesson.

Cocaine fiend?
Sauce is Rassie?

[Slick]

Root cause analysis. If only Berry did his job well, none of this would have happened.

Or more to the point, to your liking.

You’ve got to be quite a scumbag to read what Berry has gone through, watch a guys reputation and career get trashed, watch him get further abuse on social media today and come out with a statement like that. Over a fucking game of rugby

[Sandstorm]

Root cause analysis. If only Berry did his job well, none of this would have happened.

Or more to the point, to your liking.

You’ve got to be quite a scumbag to read what Berry has gone through, watch a guys reputation and career get trashed, watch him get further abuse on social media today and come out with a statement like that. Over a fucking game of rugby

Agreed. Although I think he’s trying to be funny and failing.

[Kawazaki]

Bollocks Toga. You hate a different club or Test side every month. You’re angry and a liar. Take a chill pill.

No, this is different. You're confusing rivalry (and banter) with something else entirely. Erasmus has made South Africa very unlikable for reasons that go to the heart of why we all like rugby. He's disrespecting all of us when he does what he did to Berry. He's unleashed so much hate on that referee, I'm genuinely concerned for him.

[Sandstorm]

Bollocks Toga. You hate a different club or Test side every month. You’re angry and a liar. Take a chill pill.

No, this is different. You're confusing rivalry (and banter) with something else entirely. Erasmus has made South Africa very unlikable for reasons that go to the heart of why we all like rugby. He's disrespecting all of us when he does what he did to Berry. He's unleashed so much hate on that referee, I'm genuinely concerned for him.

Meh, we’re used to being unlikeable. Your lot have been hating on Saffers since about 1750.

[Kawazaki]

What would happen do you think if Berry fell into a deep depression over this and committed suicide?

Would that straighten South Africans up a bit as to how serious this is?

[PCPhil]

This thread is a fascinating glimpse into the psychology of defensive victimhood.

[Sandstorm]

What would happen do you think if Berry fell into a deep depression over this and committed suicide?

Would that straighten South Africans up a bit as to how serious this is?

It would be a tragedy.

And you’re lumping every South African into the same category. Again.

[Kawazaki]

What would happen do you think if Berry fell into a deep depression over this and committed suicide?

Would that straighten South Africans up a bit as to how serious this is?

It would be a tragedy.

And you’re lumping every South African into the same category. Again.

If I saw a few more coming out to condemn Erasmus then maybe I wouldn't but there isn't any is there. Where are the famous old Springboks coming out in support of the referee? There's certainly nobody in the SARU who think what he did was wrong and the overwhelming majority of comments online are in support of Erasmus. So yeah, bar maybe a dozen or so, at the moment I am pretty much lumping you all in the same category.

p.s can wholly avoidable and preventable events be a tragedy?

[Tichtheid]

What would happen do you think if Berry fell into a deep depression over this and committed suicide?

Would that straighten South Africans up a bit as to how serious this is?

It would be a tragedy.

And you’re lumping every South African into the same category. Again.

Of course it would be awful, but to be honest that kind of 'back of the hand on the forehead' post could be applied anywhere - what if Rassie takes the ban the wrong way and spirals down etc etc?

Mental health is a serious issue and I'm very wary of it being tossed in to online "what if" knockabout appeals to emotion

[Kawazaki]

What would happen do you think if Berry fell into a deep depression over this and committed suicide?

Would that straighten South Africans up a bit as to how serious this is?

It would be a tragedy.

And you’re lumping every South African into the same category. Again.

Of course it would be awful, but to be honest that kind of 'back of the hand on the forehead' post could be applied anywhere - what if Rassie takes the ban the wrong way and spirals down etc etc?

Mental health is a serious issue and I'm very wary of it being tossed in to online "what if" knockabout appeals to emotion

I agree, but read the statement from Berry himself. This has had a massive impact on him and his family. Have you been online to read what people are saying about him? It's disgusting. And it's worth repeating here, he's done nothing wrong. He's just a rugby referee. That's it. He did everything Erasmus wanted, gave him his full cooperation, answered his questions. He even agreed with him that in many of the examples he was wrong. And then Erasmus betrayed him.

I hope somebody is keeping an eye on him.

[Tichtheid]

It would be a tragedy.

And you’re lumping every South African into the same category. Again.

Of course it would be awful, but to be honest that kind of 'back of the hand on the forehead' post could be applied anywhere - what if Rassie takes the ban the wrong way and spirals down etc etc?

Mental health is a serious issue and I'm very wary of it being tossed in to online "what if" knockabout appeals to emotion

I agree, but read the statement from Berry himself. This has had a massive impact on him and his family. Have you been online to read what people are saying about him? It's disgusting. And it's worth repeating here, he's done nothing wrong. He's just a rugby referee. That's it. He did everything Erasmus wanted, gave him his full cooperation, answered his questions. He even agreed with him that in many of the examples he was wrong. And then Erasmus betrayed him.

I hope somebody is keeping an eye on him.

players are advised to stay away from social media for the most part, I hope referees get the same advice.

We are all part of this, we can dial down the rhetoric if we like, it's not going to change everything in the next hour or week or month but it might change it in the long run

[Sandstorm]

it's not going to change everything in the next hour or week or month but it might change it in the long run

Saffers leading from the front and bringing about change for the good of all fans of Rugby. Heroes basically.

[Tichtheid]

it's not going to change everything in the next hour or week or month but it might change it in the long run

Saffers leading from the front and bringing about change for the good of all fans of Rugby. Heroes basically.

Saints

[Slick]

Root cause analysis. If only Berry did his job well, none of this would have happened.

Or more to the point, to your liking.

You’ve got to be quite a scumbag to read what Berry has gone through, watch a guys reputation and career get trashed, watch him get further abuse on social media today and come out with a statement like that. Over a fucking game of rugby

Agreed. Although I think he’s trying to be funny and failing.

He’s been failing for about 6 months in that case.

I agree with a lot of what Toga says but also worth saying that most of the Saffers on here have been quite reflective. I would like to see a Bokke legend come out and calm it down though

[Calculon]

What match was this?

I think Sandy is confused.

Berry has only officiated 3 Bok matches:

27 Jul 2019 New Zealand Draw: 16-16 WestPac Stadium, Wellington
06 Sep 2019 Japan Win: 41-7 Kumagaya Rugby Stadium, Saitama
24 Jul 2021 B&I Lions Lose: 17-22 Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town

Stomps suffered his crap skills for years too.

According to wiki Berry only started reffing Super Rugby after JDV already left the Stormers. Maybe you're thinking of someone else

[Calculon]

World Rugby have proven themselves unworthy trustees of the game imo, have you seen Ocean's Apart? There is a vote very soon to allow players to play for a second international team after three years, but Dan Leo met with such resistance from the governing body that I have little faith that the vote will pass. Not all countries have an equal vote,

In fairtness it's reported that lots of tier two nations don't want this rule, it's not just a case of World Rugby trying to stiff the Islanders. Imagine you're Chile or Spain competing for automatic RWC qualification by finishing third in their pool, do you want to Tonga to get the boost of Malakai Feikitoa and Charles Piutau?

I'm not saying it's an easy topic with a definite right and wrong, but in the film Leo says that players make the decision to play for particular teams when they are young and skint - if playing for Tonga or Fiji wasn't a barrier to progress in the domestic game in New Zealand and they were able to earn the same (or even a decent professional salary) representing Tonga/Fiji/Samoa as they do with the All Blacks then there would be more competition at the top end of the international game.

There are Japanese scouts signing up schoolboy Tongans on scholarships as project players. The fact that Edinburgh/Scotland has done it with young Jordan Venter doesn't make me change my mind on this, it's just wrong.
The older guys that come to Scotland are for the most part the ones who would boost a Currie Cup side, but not really trouble international selectors for various reasons, that's why they choose to pursue a career elsewhere.

Can't say I'm happy Scotland poaching a Saffa school kid but at the same time can't blame the kid for wanting a better life or even the club poaching him. It's after all a business, and success equals money. Can see this becoming much more common in future as well. Regarding the rule change it just seems like you're going to end up with Tonga/Fiji/Samoa teams full of ex All Black stars that are now to old to play for the ABs and also discarded All Blacks that that were only good enough to win a handful of caps. Not sure how I feel about that tbh.

[Tichtheid]

@Calculon, I have nothing against the kid, and I would love it if he makes a success of his move and becomes an Edinburgh centre and maybe even plays for Scotland, who knows, perhaps even emulating Duhan van der Merwe in representing the B&I Lions, that would be fantastic, and it's what I really want him to achieve, as he is now part of my team and I've invested emotionally in his development.

His story is pretty tragic, he deserves some good stuff happening to him, by the look of the lad he's not shy of work, I hope he makes it.

Regarding the rule change it just seems like you're going to end up with Tonga/Fiji/Samoa teams full of ex All Black stars that are now to old to play for the ABs and also discarded All Blacks that that were only good enough to win a handful of caps. Not sure how I feel about that tbh.

This is how it starts, but as Tonga/Samoa/Fiji become more successful then more players will choose them in the first place, rather than committing to other countries first and then looking back

[handyman]

Or more to the point, to your liking.

You’ve got to be quite a scumbag to read what Berry has gone through, watch a guys reputation and career get trashed, watch him get further abuse on social media today and come out with a statement like that. Over a fucking game of rugby

Agreed. Although I think he’s trying to be funny and failing.

He’s been failing for about 6 months in that case.

I agree with a lot of what Toga says but also worth saying that most of the Saffers on here have been quite reflective. I would like to see a Bokke legend come out and calm it down though

I'm just looking at it without emotion.

Right, it's Friday, time for me to leave this fred.

[NeilOJism]

Please excuse the poor form of quoting some gobshite from The Other Place, but I, er... he had this to say, and HE can’t be arsed to type it all out again...
—————

At school we had a common theme distilled into us:

1. The referee is always right
2. If the referee makes a mistake refer to point 1.

Mortal injury to thread.

If you think whining about match officials is cool and modern then you are the one that is wrong, son.

Ouch. Thread barely hanging on

What Erasmus did is akin to attacking the very foundations of our game.

Thread dead. Finito. Kaputt. Good night, Vienna. Goeie nag, Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan Municipality. The fat waterboy has sung.

We all consider ourselves 'rugby people'. Yes, there will be 'football people', 'golf people', etc., but those aren't really common expressions. 'Rugby people' is because there is a code to this sport that differentiates us, not just from followers/players of other sports, but from other sport, period. There are plenty of people who only follow rugby because they believe - rightly or wrongly - that rugby's 'code' is what sport should be like, but rarely is.

(And, of course, there are some big, ugly, ungainly lumps who follow only rugby because no-one else will have them / they were shit at every other sport on the planet , but that's not relevant here...)

I am not equating The Code with The Laws - this is about how you follow, not play, the game - the set of principles, traditions, cultural features, etc., that we 'rugby people' all hold dear.

Although we may all hold The Code dear, it has never been written down, nor is there consensus as to its contents. There are probably as many subtle variants of The Code, as many permutations of its constituent principles, as there are Rugby People.

There are some uncontroversial - or 'soft'- principles that would appear, I should think, in everyone’s variant of The Code, e.g.:
- You can rock up to any rugby club in the world as a fellow Rugby Person and get a game or, at least, a warm reception should you just want to drink a beer and catch a game. Even Dozy or Globus. Even QP (RIP). This is obviously not unique to rugby but, coupled with rugby's global position as a niche sport, it certainly helps to build the sense of belonging to a geographically large, but nonetheless select, club

- You can sit with opposition fans and exchange stories, drinks and songs rather than blood, which is obviously one of those bits of The Code that makes quite a few rugby people feel superior to their oikball equivalents. Whoops, I must stop doing that…

- No matter what (legal) violence has been meted out (or received) during the game, you ALWAYS shake hands with the opposition, and you'll probably buy them a beer also. Other sports have similar codes, obviously – but it’s the juxtaposition (*spit*) of that degree of physical violence with that degree of subsequent camaraderie on the same afternoon which is fairly weird. I dunno, maybe MMA/UFC fighters get pissed together and form lifelong friendships after trying to kill each other, but I'd guess it wasn't the norm.

And there are cultural differences within the The Code - a Scots or Irish Rugby Person will insist that The Code necessitates absolute silence when a penalty kick / conversion is being attempted, whereas Rugby People from many other countries would of course loudly greet an opposition kick, and therefore loudly disagree.

They'd still recognise each other as Rugby People, however; they'd still feel that they shared The Code.

I would like to suggest that, to Rugby People everywhere (even South Africa), there aren't many components of The Code that are as universally agreed upon as (with thanks to earl, BokJock & cammie, and with apologies for my presumptive editing of their critical observations):

1. The referee is always right
2. If the referee makes a mistake refer to point 1
3. Whining about match officials is never allowed, whether the whiners are fans, players or coaches after the game. A degree of impassioned whining during a game can be tolerated (see: handshakes)
4. Any contravention of 1, 2 or 3 is a fundamental contravention of The Code of a Rugby Person

I've never put anyone on ignore, and I probably never will. But if you don't agree with the above list, then (to me) you are not a Rugby person, you are in the wrong place and are therefore either a conscious troll or an unconscious idiot who has yet to understand our sport (and perhaps never will).

Either way, you should f@ck right off.

Or don't. I don't care, because I'm here for the rugby [/globus] and other non-rugby chat with Rugby People. You will be wasting your time and bandwidth engaging with me or any other Rugby People, and I certainly won’t acknowledge your vexatious and/or cretinous efforts to interrupt us, much less dignify them with a response.

Genuine South African Rugby People such as BokJock et al: you have my sympathy for your embarrassing compatriots (on this issue - God knows every country has their idiots who pretend to be Rugby People. Thanks to RE, however, it's your local heretics in the spotlight right now)

TL;DR?

Good luck for Saturday, my bokkish buddies. I hope we give you a game, and it’s The Rugby we remember.

[Sards]

I see Rennie has come out in support of Berry.