European Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

England players also have rest periods, but when they happen is at the discretion of the clubs.

[sockwithaticket]

What does amaze me, and please don't think this is a dig because it's not meant that way, it's a genuine "how the fuck is that?" type thing.

England do struggle to produce quality scrum halves from 12 or 13 teams and however many players. I don't mean Phil Vickery, Wilkinson, Johno or Jason Robinson quality in their positions, ie World XV conversation material, I mean, well, really good scrum halves.

We can end up with certain positions where far too many of the starters are foreign players all at the same time which can result in a real positional shortage. Until recently we struggled with back rowers, but tighthead's looking fairly patchy.

Starting with Spencer and Robson and then going onto Randall, Mitchell, Quirke and van Portvliet we've probably got the best crop of scrum halves in a long while. Eddie seems determined to get Youngs to 150 caps, though.

[JM2K6]

It would be educational to know how many Irish/Welsh/Scottish professionals are currently plying their trade in England - reducing the number of teams would reduce their opportunities as well.

[charltom]

At the real sharp end of the stick, there's no world in which having some 4th choice prem journeyman actively helps England rugby at an international level.

In England perhaps. But that's not the case in Scotland. Darryl Marfo is one of a number of examples.

[weegie01]

I'd argue the Scottish system goes too far the other way. Too few teams, leaving no depth whatsoever!

Back to the numbers thing, there is no chance of Scotland as it stands producing enough players for three decent pro teams, even if the money was there.

One of the big issues, apart from sheer numbers, is the lumpiness of the player flow. Over the last few years Scotland on its own has not produced even one team's worth of props, whilst producing a glut in the back row.

Right now, there are enough good backrowers in the two teams that proper potential internationals are not getting game time. On the other hand, the SRU looked down the line and could not see where the props were coming from. So they went out to find some. As a result, between them, Edinburgh and Glasgow have 17 props. Only 4 are of Scottish origin, 5 are from SA, 3 NZ, and one each from Argentina, Aus and England. There is of course Sutherland at Worcester and Hislop at Wasps.

.

[weegie01]

England players also have rest periods, but when they happen is at the discretion of the clubs.

That is the critical point. Here the clubs have no say and supporters of both regularly lament that country is put before club by the SRU.

[Tichtheid]

It would be educational to know how many Irish/Welsh/Scottish professionals are currently plying their trade in England - reducing the number of teams would reduce their opportunities as well.

I've just seen a list of Scottish Exiles, it contains two full 23s plus a couple of outliers. Some positions are quite strong (Redpath, Scott, Harris, Hutchinson) others are not quite at that standard.

Plus Finn in France, bien sur

[JM2K6]

England players also have rest periods, but when they happen is at the discretion of the clubs.

That is the critical point. Here the clubs have no say and supporters of both regularly lament that country is put before club by the SRU.

Sure - I'm just surprised that Falcons fans didn't believe it would be that way round in another country!

[weegie01]

England players also have rest periods, but when they happen is at the discretion of the clubs.

That is the critical point. Here the clubs have no say and supporters of both regularly lament that country is put before club by the SRU.

Sure - I'm just surprised that Falcons fans didn't believe it would be that way round in another country!

There seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.

[JM2K6]

That is the critical point. Here the clubs have no say and supporters of both regularly lament that country is put before club by the SRU.

Sure - I'm just surprised that Falcons fans didn't believe it would be that way round in another country!

There seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.

Thinking about it, it's pretty rare for Newcastle players to be showing up in England squads, so I guess it makes more sense than at first glance.

I used to sit next to people at Quins who didn't care about internationals at all, just club rugby. They're the minority, I think, but they do exist.

[Uncle fester]

That is the critical point. Here the clubs have no say and supporters of both regularly lament that country is put before club by the SRU.

Sure - I'm just surprised that Falcons fans didn't believe it would be that way round in another country!

There seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.

What's the priority for Scottish fans?

For Ireland and despite our innate ability to fight with ourselves inside a phone box, it's generally green first, everything else after.

[Biffer]

Sure - I'm just surprised that Falcons fans didn't believe it would be that way round in another country!

There seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.

What's the priority for Scottish fans?

For Ireland and despite our innate ability to fight with ourselves inside a phone box, it's generally green first, everything else after.

I think most of us now recognise that we won't have a successful national side without successful club sides.

[SaintK]

No headdresses or chanting for Chiefs fans in Glasgow at the weekend!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!

Glasgow Warriors have taken a stance against the presence of Native American headdresses and the chanting of the “Tomahawk Chop” from Exeter Chiefs fans ahead of this weekend’s Champions Cup clash at Scotstoun.
The use of the headdress has been a contentious issue in the game throughout the year, with Premiership rivals Wasps calling for a ban of it at matches.
Exeter head coach Rob Baxter was quoted as recently as October by the Guardian as saying that the conversation was a “bit of a non-story” and left it to the club to decide whether to keep the headwear.
While fans are still able to wear the headdress and chant the Tomahawk Chop at Sandy Park, Glasgow has taken it into their own hands to request that neither be present this weekend.
In an open letter from former player and current Managing Director, Al Kellock, the club said that it had taken the decision following consultation with a working group comprised of Native American community members.

[Slick]

There seems to be a body of English fans almost entirely focussed on their club and the Prem which forms their rugby horizons. The only time they notice rugby outside England it is when their club plays one from another country. Can't fault them for that.

What's the priority for Scottish fans?

For Ireland and despite our innate ability to fight with ourselves inside a phone box, it's generally green first, everything else after.

I think most of us now recognise that we won't have a successful national side without successful club sides.

Meh, I don’t really care about pro club rugby. National team and amateur, although I agree with your premise

In saying that I am beginning to get more on board with the pro clubs but it’s a struggle

[Torquemada 1420]

What does amaze me, and please don't think this is a dig because it's not meant that way, it's a genuine "how the fuck is that?" type thing.

England do struggle to produce quality scrum halves from 12 or 13 teams and however many players. I don't mean Phil Vickery, Wilkinson, Johno or Jason Robinson quality in their positions, ie World XV conversation material, I mean, well, really good scrum halves.

Hard to fathom. Not like
- Fra never producing FHs or SHs who had a quick pass. That's because SH's traditionally ran the game rather than 10 and the latter because turgid, fwd dominated rugby meant backs never needed to see the ball.
- Aus having sh*t front rows because they never gave it any attention once the Soup era started.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think most of us now recognise that we won't have a successful national side without successful club sides.

Unless you sacrifice the clubs for the ntl side a la Wales..... which can work for a short time but now expect a whole generation of mediocrity as the price.

[Hellraiser]

How is that giant tub of lard Montpelier prop been given a pro contract?

The French teams are noticeably bigger. Exeter did the right thing by keeping playing until Montpellier ran out of gas.

It's always been the best tactic for the non-French sides; against their fatties. Run them until they start flagging; & if you're still within 10 pts, or so; you can still win.

There's still that gap in the fitness in the French sides; & the rest of the NH; & it's dumb not to exploit that.

Toulon got around the problem a few years ago by just having two international front fives in the 23.

[Hellraiser]

I suppose another way of looking at is the 1XV squad of E, I, S and W are broadly competitive.

The 2nd XV’s would be similar with Scotland and Wales maybe struggling a bit

3rd XV and Scotland are ringing round Friday night to see if they can raise a team and Wales also drop off a fair bit

Scotland don’t have a 4th XV, Wales don’t either, England and Ireland probably still fairy level

An Irish 4th XV is an interesting thought experiment. It'll give it a lash.

8. JOD
6. Paul Boyle
7. Dan Leavy
5. Ultan Dillane
4. Fineen Wycherley
3. John Ryan
2. Dave Heffernan
1. Jack McGrath

9. John Cooney
10. Jack Carty
11. Mack Hansen
12. Rory Scannell
13. James Hume
14. Shane Daly
15. Mike Haley

[Niegs]

No headdresses or chanting for Chiefs fans in Glasgow at the weekend!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!

Glasgow Warriors have taken a stance against the presence of Native American headdresses and the chanting of the “Tomahawk Chop” from Exeter Chiefs fans ahead of this weekend’s Champions Cup clash at Scotstoun.
The use of the headdress has been a contentious issue in the game throughout the year, with Premiership rivals Wasps calling for a ban of it at matches.
Exeter head coach Rob Baxter was quoted as recently as October by the Guardian as saying that the conversation was a “bit of a non-story” and left it to the club to decide whether to keep the headwear.
While fans are still able to wear the headdress and chant the Tomahawk Chop at Sandy Park, Glasgow has taken it into their own hands to request that neither be present this weekend.
In an open letter from former player and current Managing Director, Al Kellock, the club said that it had taken the decision following consultation with a working group comprised of Native American community members.

Saw that on twitter and one fan, who got a bunch of likes, was so desperate to have his racist cosplay and inoffensive, tribe non-specific chant that he said ALL Exeter fans must turn up with feathered headdresses to make their point.

[SaintK]

That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.

Saracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pau

[Biffer]

No headdresses or chanting for Chiefs fans in Glasgow at the weekend!
I'm sure that the hordes travelling North from Devon will comply!!!

Glasgow Warriors have taken a stance against the presence of Native American headdresses and the chanting of the “Tomahawk Chop” from Exeter Chiefs fans ahead of this weekend’s Champions Cup clash at Scotstoun.
The use of the headdress has been a contentious issue in the game throughout the year, with Premiership rivals Wasps calling for a ban of it at matches.
Exeter head coach Rob Baxter was quoted as recently as October by the Guardian as saying that the conversation was a “bit of a non-story” and left it to the club to decide whether to keep the headwear.
While fans are still able to wear the headdress and chant the Tomahawk Chop at Sandy Park, Glasgow has taken it into their own hands to request that neither be present this weekend.
In an open letter from former player and current Managing Director, Al Kellock, the club said that it had taken the decision following consultation with a working group comprised of Native American community members.

Saw that on twitter and one fan, who got a bunch of likes, was so desperate to have his racist cosplay and inoffensive, tribe non-specific chant that he said ALL Exeter fans must turn up with feathered headdresses to make their point.

It's hard to figure out what their point is at this stage other than 'I want the right to be a racist arsehole'.

[weegie01]

That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.

Saracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pau

Bugger.

With Edinburgh having beaten Saracens it looked like that gave them an advantage. Saracens forfeiting this may invigorate other challenges.

[SaintK]

Covid also stopped Bath from training so far this week and positive tests in both Leinster and Montpellier squads

[Torquemada 1420]

That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.

Saracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pau

I doubt Sarries will be crying over the opportunity to rest having blown it anyway against Ed.

Closest Pau will ever get again to a 28pt victory in Europe.

[robmatic]

That's Sarries done in Europe this season
They've forfeited their match in Pau due to a mass Covid outbreak.

Saracens have been forced to forfeit Saturday’s European Challenge Cup fixture against Pau due to a significant Covid-19 outbreak, leaving Mark McCall’s side struggling to qualify from their pool.
The north London club has closed its training ground and all players and support staff have been isolated following the outbreak. With a number of close contacts also identified and factoring in injuries, Saracens, who lost last weekend’s European opener against Edinburgh, said they were unable to field a 23-man squad against Pau, who have been awarded a 28-0 victory.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... inst-pau

Bugger.

With Edinburgh having beaten Saracens it looked like that gave them an advantage. Saracens forfeiting this may invigorate other challenges.

I dunno, top 3 in the group go through, the French aren't interested and Saracens have lost 2 already. I don't think Edinburgh need to worry too much.

[JM2K6]

Montpellier awarded a 28-0 against Leinster.

[Uncle fester]

Montpellier awarded a 28-0 against Leinster.

Bit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.

[Marylandolorian]

Montpellier awarded a 28-0 against Leinster.

Bit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.

Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.

[Happyhooker]

Montpellier awarded a 28-0 against Leinster.

Bit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.

Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.

Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no

[Uncle fester]

Montpellier awarded a 28-0 against Leinster.

Bit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.

Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.

Apparently still able to field and Munster fielded last weekend in a worse position. As a Munster fan, I think leinster getting shanked is hilarious but unless there's something we're not seeing, they are actually being shanked.

[fishfoodie]

Bit of a curious one as both teams have Covid cases and have been playing chicken all week. Looks like Monty won that one.

Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.

Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no

If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.

Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?

Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?

[dkm57]

No different to the way Glasgow got shanked last season to the benefit of French clubs. Am I being paranoid in seeing a repeating pattern here?

[Marylandolorian]

Right, Montpellier 5 cases (no positive case since Monday) vs Leinster 20, bit curious.

Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no

If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.

Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?

Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?

Looks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE.
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.

[Marylandolorian]

Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no

If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.

Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?

Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?

Looks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE this weekend.
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.

[TheFrog]

Finally found my way back here. I had lost the web address.

Haven't read the whole thread but wow... the French sides took a beating for the first round. Clermont is only a shadow of the former team and it is hard to see for me.

Is there a Top 14 thread still?

[earl the beaver]

Premiership rules
In the Premiership, the rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be in the matchday 23, at all periods during the season.

The level of English Qualified Players (EQP) in the Premiership has been fairly consistent since the inception of the league, and now stands at approximately 70%. This means on average there are approximately 200 English players playing every weekend in the Premiership.

The above is from the premiership rules.

200 players playing every weekend means an average of 15.3 players per team. However Rugby Pass calculated that for the 19/20 season 706 players were contracted to Premiership clubs, so 495 English players in the Premiership, or 38 pre team. Full squad sizes vary from 51 at Ldn Irish to 64 at Wasps. Many of those will be academy players or journeymen "squad players".

There are semi pros and some full times players in the Championship too.

The difference in pool sizes isn't about the amateur game, it's about the number of professional players

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis ... r-2019-20/

Yes, but a ton of journeyman players doesn't make your top level teams better, it just means you have a ton of journeymen players as well. At the real sharp end of the stick, there's no world in which having some 4th choice prem journeyman actively helps England rugby at an international level. Just like having me play in Div 13, doesn't help any team in Div 10 in terms of their quality, we're worlds apart.

Do you think the likes of Ulster, Munster and Connacht aren't stacked out with journeymen?

Leinster not so much but there are still some there.

[robmatic]

Leinster had clearance to travel from their government, the French gov said no

If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.

Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?

Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?

Looks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE.
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.

That would be the European competitions goosed then.

[Uncle fester]

If that's the case; & Leinster were prepared to field a team; it's ridiculous to give Montpellier a walkover.

Maybe someone should have a word in the ear of the Irish Government, & make sure some French side can't travel; & thus has to give a walkover ?

Is that really how we want to decide qualification ?

Looks like it won’t be necessary as the French gov might prohibit the T14 teams to travel to the Uk/ IRE.
Clubs are asking for a special authorization.

That would be the European competitions goosed then.

It was always a bit of a long shot anyway.

[fishfoodie]

Frexit !

will be pleased

[SaintK]

How on earth have Montpellier been given a 28-0 win when Leinster were happy to travel and play the match?