The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[robmatic]

There must be a really good reason for Hastings not being there or that is completely insane

Toonie really is a fan of Kinghorn, because apparently we don't need anybody else to back up Hogg at fullback either. But we do need 6 centres.

[KingBlairhorn]

I fucking HATE alphabetical squad lists.

TH: Nel, ZFagerson, Sebastian,
LH: Bhatti, Schoeman, Sutherland
Hk: Ashman, McInally, Turner
Lock: Cummings, Gilchrist, JGray, Hodgson, Skinner,
BR: Bayliss, Bradbury, Christie, Darge, MFagerson, Haining, Richie, Watson

FH: Kinghorn, Russell
SH: Price, Vellacott, White
CTR: Bennett, Harris, Hutchison, Johnson, Redpath, Tuipulotu
Wing: Graham, McLean, Rowe, Steyn, Duhan
FB: Hogg

Reflections:

We are very light at tighthead. Sebastian, from what I have seen, is not international quality and is probably the weakest player in the squad. Let's hope he 'Marfos' it. Clearly the Kebble experiment is not yet at a stage we are willing to chuck him into the 6Ns. Is Berghan injured? We very much need another to break through - Murray McCallum for instance.
Brown and Cherry can both consider themselves unlucky, but equally all the hookers selected deserve it. With Jake Kerr doing okay too, we might be seeing a changing of the guard; Brown probably won't make the next WC. McBurney might also have been in Gregor's thoughts, but has barely played for Edinburgh.
Marshall Sykes has actually been the better of the two Edinburgh locks for me and is a man mountain, however I've no complaints about Hodgson getting in. Alex Craig might also have been on the fringes of the squad - no idea how much and how well he has played this year though.
The backrow is mega competitive. Delighted to see Darge there, not hugely excited about Christie. Is he actually notably better than Crosbie, or Dylan Richardson who was supposed to be the next best thing to sliced bread? Blade Thomson seems to be well out of it now (thank goodness) as does Gary Graham. I'm pretty surprised Haining is there - I know Toonie likes him but he is so limited compared to the other options.

No Ross Thompson, no Hastings, no actual second 10 - crazy.
We're very well stocked in the centres too, especially as Steyn can play there as well. I'm not too keen on Tuipulotu yet myself, but he does bring a point of difference to the other options that we don't have elsewhere (i.e. he is huge). Great to see Bennett back in, and also Hutchison. James Lang is probably unlucky but the other options are better. Matt Scott is also unlucky, despite his nightmare in the AIs.
Very strong at wing, but the starting wings pick themselves in Graham and Duhan. Graham can also play FB so gives some flexibility.
Jamie Dobie needs to ursurp Horne at Glasgow, Scott Steele perhaps unlucky, George Horne has been shit recently so no complaints from him. Who the fuck is Ben White.
If Hogg goes down then (assuming he isn't injured) surely Hastings comes in and one of Graham or Kinghorn plays fullback - or are we full panic stations calling up Cole Forbes?

[I like neeps]

There must be a really good reason for Hastings not being there or that is completely insane

Toonie really is a fan of Kinghorn, because apparently we don't need anybody else to back up Hogg at fullback either. But we do need 6 centres.

Maitland is the only viable back up to Hogg. If Hogg or Price gets injured it's goodnight Vienna.

Hastings hasn't been amazing for Gloucester it should be said.

[Slick]

There must be a really good reason for Hastings not being there or that is completely insane

Toonie really is a fan of Kinghorn, because apparently we don't need anybody else to back up Hogg at fullback either. But we do need 6 centres.

Maitland is the only viable back up to Hogg. If Hogg or Price gets injured it's goodnight Vienna.

Hastings hasn't been amazing for Gloucester it should be said.

Really? I thought I'd read he's been playing well. Haven't seen a second of play so I'll bow to your knowledge.

Either way though, he has been our back up 10 for seasons now and is a class act. Whereas Kinghorn has played about 6 games and has been a real mixed bag. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, a real concern - there must be a reason we don't know about.

[I like neeps]

I fucking HATE alphabetical squad lists.

TH: Nel, ZFagerson, Sebastian,
LH: Bhatti, Schoeman, Sutherland
Hk: Ashman, McInally, Turner
Lock: Cummings, Gilchrist, JGray, Hodgson, Skinner,
BR: Bayliss, Bradbury, Christie, Darge, MFagerson, Haining, Richie, Watson

FH: Kinghorn, Russell
SH: Price, Vellacott, White
CTR: Bennett, Harris, Hutchison, Johnson, Redpath, Tuipulotu
Wing: Graham, McLean, Rowe, Steyn, Duhan
FB: Hogg

Reflections:

We are very light at tighthead. Sebastian, from what I have seen, is not international quality and is probably the weakest player in the squad. Let's hope he 'Marfos' it. Clearly the Kebble experiment is not yet at a stage we are willing to chuck him into the 6Ns. Is Berghan injured? We very much need another to break through - Murray McCallum for instance.
Brown and Cherry can both consider themselves unlucky, but equally all the hookers selected deserve it. With Jake Kerr doing okay too, we might be seeing a changing of the guard; Brown probably won't make the next WC. McBurney might also have been in Gregor's thoughts, but has barely played for Edinburgh.
Marshall Sykes has actually been the better of the two Edinburgh locks for me and is a man mountain, however I've no complaints about Hodgson getting in. Alex Craig might also have been on the fringes of the squad - no idea how much and how well he has played this year though.
The backrow is mega competitive. Delighted to see Darge there, not hugely excited about Christie. Is he actually notably better than Crosbie, or Dylan Richardson who was supposed to be the next best thing to sliced bread? Blade Thomson seems to be well out of it now (thank goodness) as does Gary Graham. I'm pretty surprised Haining is there - I know Toonie likes him but he is so limited compared to the other options.

No Ross Thompson, no Hastings, no actual second 10 - crazy.
We're very well stocked in the centres too, especially as Steyn can play there as well. I'm not too keen on Tuipulotu yet myself, but he does bring a point of difference to the other options that we don't have elsewhere (i.e. he is huge). Great to see Bennett back in, and also Hutchison. James Lang is probably unlucky but the other options are better. Matt Scott is also unlucky, despite his nightmare in the AIs.
Very strong at wing, but the starting wings pick themselves in Graham and Duhan. Graham can also play FB so gives some flexibility.
Jamie Dobie needs to ursurp Horne at Glasgow, Scott Steele perhaps unlucky, George Horne has been shit recently so no complaints from him. Who the fuck is Ben White.
If Hogg goes down then (assuming he isn't injured) surely Hastings comes in and one of Graham or Kinghorn plays fullback - or are we full panic stations calling up Cole Forbes?

The problem we have in depth at prop is very much a development problem. There are currently 3 professional props at Glasgow who were schooled and played youth rugby in Scotland and 0 at Edinburgh. Zero! One of two Scottish pro clubs has no Scottish developed player at a key position. Until that's sorted we're always going to be hard up at prop.

[KingBlairhorn]

You are unfortunately wrong on that one by about 2 hours Neeps, Euan McClaren signed for Edinburgh this afternoon (played for Southern Knights in last year's Super6, previously on the books at Glasgow)!

Edit: don't disagree with your point though. Other than Fagerson, when did we last develop a competent tighthead?

[Yr Alban]

No matter what, every new squad announcement has at least one surprise. I had never heard of Ben White before now, and as we have a bit of a logjam at 9 (albeit no clear #2) I’m surprised to see an entirely new name there.

I really can’t get my head around leaving out Hastings. He has never let us down yet, and having Kinghorn as the backup 10 after a handful of games there is just weird. Especially given how many centres we have. Hastings has also covered 15 on occasion.

Good to see Hutchinson back in.

[KingBlairhorn]

No matter what, every new squad announcement has at least one surprise. I had never heard of Ben White before now, and as we have a bit of a logjam at 9 (albeit no clear #2) I’m surprised to see an entirely new name there.

I really can’t get my head around leaving out Hastings. He has never let us down yet, and having Kinghorn as the backup 10 after a handful of games there is just weird. Especially given how many centres we have. Hastings has also covered 15 on occasion.

Good to see Hutchinson back in.

Is there a squad size limit? A quick google suggests anything between 38 (we've selected 39) and 42.

Perhaps he has Covid and will be added to the squad or something?

[I like neeps]

Toonie really is a fan of Kinghorn, because apparently we don't need anybody else to back up Hogg at fullback either. But we do need 6 centres.

Maitland is the only viable back up to Hogg. If Hogg or Price gets injured it's goodnight Vienna.

Hastings hasn't been amazing for Gloucester it should be said.

Really? I thought I'd read he's been playing well. Haven't seen a second of play so I'll bow to your knowledge.

Either way though, he has been our back up 10 for seasons now and is a class act. Whereas Kinghorn has played about 6 games and has been a real mixed bag. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, a real concern - there must be a reason we don't know about.

He's been good sometimes but not so good others. It's quite telling in Gloucester Vs Quins in a tight match they hooked Hastings after 60.

I think at 10 for Edinburgh Kinghorn has been better than a mixed bag. I agree, I wouldn't chose Kinghorn after so few games but he has been very good. Also it's Toonie's idea to shift him.

I feel sorry for Lang - he's been class.

[weegie01]

Townsend has said Hastings has been left out due to deficiencies in his game. He has been told what to work on, if he does so, the door is open.

[Yr Alban]

Just an observation: we now have sufficient strength in depth in most positions that squad announcements are followed by people marvelling at who has been left out this time. Times have truly changed. It really isn’t all that long since we had no decent 10s and no decent centres. Now Toony can leave out the likes of Hastings, Ross Thompson and Huw Jones. We also don’t have to persist with players who underperform - Gary Graham and Blade Thomson are likely gone for good.

[Yr Alban]

Townsend has said Hastings has been left out due to deficiencies in his game. He has been told what to work on, if he does so, the door is open.

This to a player who was our 1st choice 10 when Finn was in the huff! Toony’s man management can be questionable.

[weegie01]

Townsend has said Hastings has been left out due to deficiencies in his game. He has been told what to work on, if he does so, the door is open.

This to a player who was our 1st choice 10 when Finn was in the huff! Toony’s man management can be questionable.

I paraphrased and it may have come over more harshly than intended. He said Kinghorn is playing better, and Hastings 'has things to work on', which I paraphrased as deficiencies.

[I like neeps]

You are unfortunately wrong on that one by about 2 hours Neeps, Euan McClaren signed for Edinburgh this afternoon (played for Southern Knights in last year's Super6, previously on the books at Glasgow)!

Edit: don't disagree with your point though. Other than Fagerson, when did we last develop a competent tighthead?

Euan Murray?

McLaren looked good for Melrose. I see he replaced Gamble who went on loan to LS (good!).

There comes a point when the SRU have to say to Wilson and Blair the Pierettos, Atalifos, Ceccerellis, Halanukanukas are gone and young Scottish tightheads are playing weekly.

[weegie01]

Just an observation: we now have sufficient strength in depth in most positions that squad announcements are followed by people marvelling at who has been left out this time. Times have truly changed. It really isn’t all that long since we had no decent 10s and no decent centres. Now Toony can leave out the likes of Hastings, Ross Thompson and Huw Jones. We also don’t have to persist with players who underperform - Gary Graham and Blade Thomson are likely gone for good.

I am sure I have missed some out, but off the top of my head a team from those not selected and fit. Scotland has put out teams not much better.

1 - Kebble
2 - Cherry
3 - McCallum
4 - Sykes
5 - Henderson
6 - Crosbie
7 - Gordon
8 - Wilson
9 - Horne
10 - Hastings
11 - Blain
12 - Scott
13 - Jones
14 - Hoyland
15 - Maitland

Edit
Subs
Kerr, Dell, Rae, Gray, Harley, Dobie, Thompson, Lang, Taylor

[Big D]

No matter what, every new squad announcement has at least one surprise. I had never heard of Ben White before now, and as we have a bit of a logjam at 9 (albeit no clear #2) I’m surprised to see an entirely new name there.

Logjam of fairly average alternatives unfortunately (at this point only as they do have potential).

Horne has been terrible and Dobie can't get ahead of him. Vellacott good at times but lacks any sort of game management.

Horne really hasn't kicked on like he should have by this age.

[I like neeps]

Just an observation: we now have sufficient strength in depth in most positions that squad announcements are followed by people marvelling at who has been left out this time. Times have truly changed. It really isn’t all that long since we had no decent 10s and no decent centres. Now Toony can leave out the likes of Hastings, Ross Thompson and Huw Jones. We also don’t have to persist with players who underperform - Gary Graham and Blade Thomson are likely gone for good.

I am sure I have missed some out, but off the top of my head a team from those not selected and fit. Scotland has put out teams not much better.

1 - Kebble
2 - Cherry
3 - McCallum
4 - Sykes
5 - Henderson
6 - Crosbie
7 - Gordon
8 - Wilson
9 - Horne
10 - Hastings
11 - Blain
12 - Scott
13 - Jones
14 - Hoyland
15 - Maitland

Edit
Subs
Kerr, Dell, Rae, Gray, Harley, Dobie, Thompson, Lang, Taylor

Henderson is crocked. Done for the season. Agree though I'd like to see them to play Andy Robinson's team Vs Tonga in a hypothetical universe.

[Slick]

Townsend has said Hastings has been left out due to deficiencies in his game. He has been told what to work on, if he does so, the door is open.

This to a player who was our 1st choice 10 when Finn was in the huff! Toony’s man management can be questionable.

I'm not commenting on the man management bit, but I was all ready to have Hastings as starting 10 due to Finn playing garbage recently. I'm genuinely really confused by this.

Fair comments about the other 9's not kicking on. I do think Dobie has the most potential of them and would love to see him get more game time.

All in all, yes, great to be moaning about who is left out rather than who is in, times have changed!

[Soapy]

No matter what, every new squad announcement has at least one surprise. I had never heard of Ben White before now, and as we have a bit of a logjam at 9 (albeit no clear #2) I’m surprised to see an entirely new name there.

Logjam of fairly average alternatives unfortunately (at this point only as they do have potential).

Horne has been terrible and Dobie can't get ahead of him. Vellacott good at times but lacks any sort of game management.

Horne really hasn't kicked on like he should have by this age.

There's no doubt Horne should have moved on rather than re-signing for Glasgow. He was either badly advised or lacked a viable alternative (which would be telling in itself). It has been plain for some time that Horne needed to be a starting SH if his career was going to kick on. He is/was never going to get the starting jersey ahead of Price.

[Yr Alban]

Just an observation: we now have sufficient strength in depth in most positions that squad announcements are followed by people marvelling at who has been left out this time. Times have truly changed. It really isn’t all that long since we had no decent 10s and no decent centres. Now Toony can leave out the likes of Hastings, Ross Thompson and Huw Jones. We also don’t have to persist with players who underperform - Gary Graham and Blade Thomson are likely gone for good.

I am sure I have missed some out, but off the top of my head a team from those not selected and fit. Scotland has put out teams not much better.

1 - Kebble
2 - Cherry
3 - McCallum
4 - Sykes
5 - Henderson
6 - Crosbie
7 - Gordon
8 - Wilson
9 - Horne
10 - Hastings
11 - Blain
12 - Scott
13 - Jones
14 - Hoyland
15 - Maitland

Edit
Subs
Kerr, Dell, Rae, Gray, Harley, Dobie, Thompson, Lang, Taylor

Richardson at 7 too

[SaintK]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

[I like neeps]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

Yes.

He's actually been good at Edinburgh so far becoming Mike Blair's favourite scrum half and has captained the side a few times. Does he have international standard passing, box kicking or decision making? I would say no. But we have very few (no) other options who do.

[SaintK]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

Yes.

He's actually been good at Edinburgh so far becoming Mike Blair's favourite scrum half and has captained the side a few times. Does he have international standard passing, box kicking or decision making? I would say no. But we have very few (no) other options who do.

Fair play!

[Slick]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

I remain unconvinced by him, but he has been pretty good to be fair. Im not sure he can make the step up to international level with less space and time because his basics are not amazing and it’s his sniping and support running that has stood out.

If we are going by form he certainly deserves his place in the squad however

[Big D]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

Yes.

He's actually been good at Edinburgh so far becoming Mike Blair's favourite scrum half and has captained the side a few times. Does he have international standard passing, box kicking or decision making? I would say no. But we have very few (no) other options who do.

Fair play!

I remain unconvinced too. But I think he is benefiting a long run of starts and knowing this is really his last chance for being anything more than journeyman back up.

[Tichtheid]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

I caveat the following with the fact that I haven't seen many Prem games and very few Glaws games in the last couple of years. When talking about Adam Hastings I've read people saying that Glaws are playing a tight game plan, that goes against Hastings' instincts and from what I can see it goes against Vellacott's too.

Edinburgh spent several seasons box-kicking up the touchline, but not contesting the ball in the air, until we got within five metres where we'd batter away at the line until we gave away a penalty.
It was risk-averse rugby and it moved Edinburgh away from the softest of underbellies to being a hard-biten side that had no flair at all. Mike Blair has given players licence to run everything and Vellacott has fitted in to that plan very well.

I don't have the concerns about him that others do, I've never noticed him having a poor or slow pass or kicking poorly, mainly on that because he does it so very rarely.
He's played tighter as well in some recent games and I've never had concerns about him, but this is the sort of thing he's been up to at Edinburgh

[Yr Alban]

The received wisdom is that we don’t have a clearly international class 9 to be back-up for Price. There are multiple candidates for the bench position - George Horne, Vellacott, Scott Steele, Jamie Dobie, Charlie Shiel, Charlie Chapman. Vellacott has shown the best form so far this season, and so deserves his call-up. None of the names on the list have shown the full skill-set, but hey, at least we have multiple candidates, which hasn’t always been the case. The only positions we really don’t have a lot of options for are 3 and 15.

[Jock42]

Excuse me gents.
Is Vellacott really one of the best 3 9's in Scotland?
He was usually shite or worse at Gloucester!!!
Christie from Saracens is a good call up for the back row

I caveat the following with the fact that I haven't seen many Prem games and very few Glaws games in the last couple of years. When talking about Adam Hastings I've read people saying that Glaws are playing a tight game plan, that goes against Hastings' instincts and from what I can see it goes against Vellacott's too.

Edinburgh spent several seasons box-kicking up the touchline, but not contesting the ball in the air, until we got within five metres where we'd batter away at the line until we gave away a penalty.
It was risk-averse rugby and it moved Edinburgh away from the softest of underbellies to being a hard-biten side that had no flair at all. Mike Blair has given players licence to run everything and Vellacott has fitted in to that plan very well.

I don't have the concerns about him that others do, I've never noticed him having a poor or slow pass or kicking poorly, mainly on that because he does it so very rarely.
He's played tighter as well in some recent games and I've never had concerns about him, but this is the sort of thing he's been up to at Edinburgh

I'm a fan of him and the way he plays as a whole (I think I read somewhere Blair has given him the freedom to play) but his game management needs improving. What worries me about him is he'll be finishing the match rather than starting and Scotland don't have the best management of the last 5 to 10 minutes as it is. That said he completely deserves his call up.

[I like neeps]

The received wisdom is that we don’t have a clearly international class 9 to be back-up for Price. There are multiple candidates for the bench position - George Horne, Vellacott, Scott Steele, Jamie Dobie, Charlie Shiel, Charlie Chapman. Vellacott has shown the best form so far this season, and so deserves his call-up. None of the names on the list have shown the full skill-set, but hey, at least we have multiple candidates, which hasn’t always been the case. The only positions we really don’t have a lot of options for are 3 and 15.

There is a difference between multiple candidates and good candidates though.

I like Vellacott but he's a bit George Horne for me. A very good attacking player who fits an attacking gameplan but when it comes to playing a structured game plan probably doesn't have the kicking skills or consistent speed and accuracy of pass for international standard.

I think tighthead prop is a stronger position than 9 because both Fagerson and Nel are very good. If one gets injured we're a bit weaker than 9. I also think if Hogg got injured Maitland would come in at 15.

[Big D]

I like Vellacott but he's a bit George Horne for me. A very good attacking player who fits an attacking gameplan but when it comes to playing a structured game plan probably doesn't have the kicking skills or consistent speed and accuracy of pass for international standard.

I agree with the comparison to Horne, where I think there is a difference is that Vellacott has bounced around a couple of clubs and knows this might be his last chance and has dug in to take his chance this season. Scottish Rugby perhaps need to push guys out of their comfort zone. Horne hasn't really had jeopardy in his career.

[Soapy]

I like Vellacott but he's a bit George Horne for me. A very good attacking player who fits an attacking gameplan but when it comes to playing a structured game plan probably doesn't have the kicking skills or consistent speed and accuracy of pass for international standard.

I agree with the comparison to Horne, where I think there is a difference is that Vellacott has bounced around a couple of clubs and knows this might be his last chance and has dug in to take his chance this season. Scottish Rugby perhaps need to push guys out of their comfort zone. Horne hasn't really had jeopardy in his career.

Yes. Often the top-end, talented youngsters that come through the Scottish system who go straight to Glasgow and Edinburgh seem to stagnate after a couple of year. I'm not sure if it is the system and coaching; a lack of player focus or drive; or a lack of competition or game time. But there does seem to be evidence that many adopt a "cruise" mode and have a frustrating inability or slowness to learn and adapt.

[Jock42]

Owsley gets his competitive debut and VDW dropped completely (again), how long does he have on his contract?

[Biffer]

This is weird



Not sure what happens about people with tickets in standing areas...

[Slick]

Is that really saying you can’t stand outside the stadium and have a pint?

[Biffer]

Is that really saying you can’t stand outside the stadium and have a pint?

Yes

[I like neeps]

I like Vellacott but he's a bit George Horne for me. A very good attacking player who fits an attacking gameplan but when it comes to playing a structured game plan probably doesn't have the kicking skills or consistent speed and accuracy of pass for international standard.

I agree with the comparison to Horne, where I think there is a difference is that Vellacott has bounced around a couple of clubs and knows this might be his last chance and has dug in to take his chance this season. Scottish Rugby perhaps need to push guys out of their comfort zone. Horne hasn't really had jeopardy in his career.

Yes. Often the top-end, talented youngsters that come through the Scottish system who go straight to Glasgow and Edinburgh seem to stagnate after a couple of year. I'm not sure if it is the system and coaching; a lack of player focus or drive; or a lack of competition or game time. But there does seem to be evidence that many adopt a "cruise" mode and have a frustrating inability or slowness to learn and adapt.

I think with Horne jnr he was late convert to 9 in the under20s. Lacked the real fundamentals but the sevens showed what an incredible attacking player he is. Rennie wants his 9s to be great attackers which suited Toonie's fast rugby too. Then Wilson comes in and doesn't want that and neither does Townsend and Horne isn't the player for the new gameplan.

If he went somewhere like Northampton or Bristol who play an all court attacking game he'd be fine.

[Slick]

Is that really saying you can’t stand outside the stadium and have a pint?

Yes

Seems a bit silly. I can’t even think what the logic is.

[Jockaline]

See Farrell is out for the Scotland game, bugger!

[Slick]

See Farrell is out for the Scotland game, bugger!

Meh, I'm genuinely not overly worried what team they put out.

There, I said it.

[Jock42]

Owsley gets his competitive debut and VDW dropped completely (again), how long does he have on his contract?

Nice turn of pace for the 5th